RE: [Mono-list] I give up / Mac OS X PPC support
Here, Here Greg. Well said! The only thing I would add is that when you say It's about freedom, simple as that., I would more specifically say It's about freedom of choice. Regards, Dan Maltes -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gregory Junker Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 10:59 AM To: Mono List Subject: Re: [Mono-list] I give up / Mac OS X PPC support This is a rather short-sighted viewpoint, I have to say. If you were talking about today, Monday April 12, 2004, then ya, sure, if the election were today then Windows.NET would win hands down. That's not what this project is about however. I strongly disagree with the statement if Mono PPC doesn't work right now, today, then you should just give it up. If Mono had the same paid development staff of the same size that Microsoft has dedicated to .NET just on Windows, then you might have a legitimate gripe. I hear a lot of sour grapes here, a lot of glass is half empty. I predict that two or three years from now you'll look back to this time and wonder why you were worried at all. And if you need Mono to run reliably on MacOSX before then, well, like you said...you need to run Windows (or, increasingly, with each passing day, Mono/Linux). I rarely boot back into Windows unless I have to (gaming), and then, as soon as I am done, it's back to Linux. All of my desktops have both Fedora and Win2K on them, and they spend 99% of their uptime in Linux. Not because I am a religious fanatic; I didn't have a single Linux machine in my business until about 18 months ago, and I only recently eliminated the last Windows server from the shop. I started in .NET and C# in the second beta version of VS.NET, and liked it a lot, but did not care to run it on Windows servers, so until I found out about this project, and the level of its maturity, I more or less ignored .NET completely. Now that I can run it in a commercial-license-free environment, I am far more interested in employing it in our projects. You mention beating MS at their own game; MS themselves realize the reality of the evolutionary path: the actual OS longer will matter in a matter of a few short years. Businesses care about what it will take to get the work done, not how it's done, and since the movement is inexorably moving towards software as a service, and since .NET is a frontrunning technology towards that end, the fact that it runs on Linux (and only gets more complete and stable with each CVS commit) means that no longer will IT departments have to care about what latest-and- greatest gee-whiz-bang-gizmo Microsoft puts out and expects us to buy: it simply won't matter. In other words, in a Mono-enabled .NET world, Microsoft themselves ironically become irrelevant. That's why Mono/Linux is important in and of itself: weaning from the dependency on a single-source vendor for what admittedly is a desirable technology. And best of all, you can still use VS.NET if you wish to develop apps for Mono/Linux (and other platforms when ready). And even that dependence is being addressed. So for me, and, I would imagine, for a significant portion of those interested in developing applications under Mono (and for Novell itself, I believe), it's not a religious fervor that drives this, not a hatred for Microsoft. It's just the opportunity NOT to have to rely on the whimsy of Redmond to take care of business, as it were. It's about freedom, simple as that. For me anyway... Greg On x86 hardware, I prefer windows xp/2003. Sorry, I love *nix, butlinux doesn't do much for me on x86, especially when x86/ windowsoffers 100% compatibility and killer dev tools. Frankly, there is noreal reason to host asp.net apps under apache, when my XP box doesbetter after locking it down. No religion here folks, just reality. I appreciate the new features and the roadmap, but if all mono has tooffer is x86/linux stability, then mono has only succeeded in doing isproviding a 'free' implementation of the .net runtime that runs on thesame commodity hardware that a fully supported and commercial versionruns on. the same hardware. Believeit or not, most windows shops adopting .NET don't care about OSlicensing costs or security. ___ Mono-list maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.ximian.com/mailman/listinfo/mono-list ___ Mono-list maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.ximian.com/mailman/listinfo/mono-list
Re: [Mono-list] I give up / Mac OS X PPC support
This is a rather short-sighted viewpoint, I have to say. If you were talking about today, Monday April 12, 2004, then ya, sure, if the election were today then Windows.NET would win hands down. That's not what this project is about however. I strongly disagree with the statement if Mono PPC doesn't work right now, today, then you should just give it up. If Mono had the same paid development staff of the same size that Microsoft has dedicated to .NET just on Windows, then you might have a legitimate gripe. I hear a lot of sour grapes here, a lot of glass is half empty. I predict that two or three years from now you'll look back to this time and wonder why you were worried at all. And if you need Mono to run reliably on MacOSX before then, well, like you said...you need to run Windows (or, increasingly, with each passing day, Mono/Linux). I rarely boot back into Windows unless I have to (gaming), and then, as soon as I am done, it's back to Linux. All of my desktops have both Fedora and Win2K on them, and they spend 99% of their uptime in Linux. Not because I am a religious fanatic; I didn't have a single Linux machine in my business until about 18 months ago, and I only recently eliminated the last Windows server from the shop. I started in .NET and C# in the second beta version of VS.NET, and liked it a lot, but did not care to run it on Windows servers, so until I found out about this project, and the level of its maturity, I more or less ignored .NET completely. Now that I can run it in a commercial-license-free environment, I am far more interested in employing it in our projects. You mention beating MS at their own game; MS themselves realize the reality of the evolutionary path: the actual OS longer will matter in a matter of a few short years. Businesses care about what it will take to get the work done, not how it's done, and since the movement is inexorably moving towards software as a service, and since .NET is a frontrunning technology towards that end, the fact that it runs on Linux (and only gets more complete and stable with each CVS commit) means that no longer will IT departments have to care about what latest-and- greatest gee-whiz-bang-gizmo Microsoft puts out and expects us to buy: it simply won't matter. In other words, in a Mono-enabled .NET world, Microsoft themselves ironically become irrelevant. That's why Mono/Linux is important in and of itself: weaning from the dependency on a single-source vendor for what admittedly is a desirable technology. And best of all, you can still use VS.NET if you wish to develop apps for Mono/Linux (and other platforms when ready). And even that dependence is being addressed. So for me, and, I would imagine, for a significant portion of those interested in developing applications under Mono (and for Novell itself, I believe), it's not a religious fervor that drives this, not a hatred for Microsoft. It's just the opportunity NOT to have to rely on the whimsy of Redmond to take care of business, as it were. It's about freedom, simple as that. For me anyway... Greg On x86 hardware, I prefer windows xp/2003. Sorry, I love *nix, butlinux doesn't do much for me on x86, especially when x86/ windowsoffers 100% compatibility and killer dev tools. Frankly, there is noreal reason to host asp.net apps under apache, when my XP box doesbetter after locking it down. No religion here folks, just reality. I appreciate the new features and the roadmap, but if all mono has tooffer is x86/linux stability, then mono has only succeeded in doing isproviding a 'free' implementation of the .net runtime that runs on thesame commodity hardware that a fully supported and commercial versionruns on. the same hardware. Believeit or not, most windows shops adopting .NET don't care about OSlicensing costs or security. ___ Mono-list maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.ximian.com/mailman/listinfo/mono-list
Re: [Mono-list] I give up / Mac OS X PPC support
Hi all, Developing and delivering software like Mono is not an easy task and a complex engineering project. We're committed to delivering Mono 1.0 in June and supporting the Linux x86, MacOS X platforms, have no doubt about that. As you know we also intend to provide support for Solaris and Linux PPC. We're also committed to delivering GTK# 1.0 in this release and SWF by the end of the year. We are privileged to observe the evolution of Mono on a daily basis. In my previous job, building from the source was something you didn't want to do unless you had to, builds were often broken and unreliable. A good build, one QA could work on, was a rare commodity. Most of us build Mono from CVS everyday with its share of frustration and disillusions but all in all, it often works. My main machine is a Powerbook running MacOS X but I also run Linux PPC, Linux x86 and Windows XP ; I have to because like Miguel, our Ximian engineers and all the good people contributing to Mono, I want to make sure we deliver on our promises. And because I mainly use MacOS X, I harass Miguel everyday about bugs I find. Mono on PPC has been frustrating in the last few weeks but I run 0.31 with some success. Recently, Miguel asked Martin to help out on PPC ; with his involvement in addition to Paolo's and Miguel's, I am confident we'll be successful. x-tad-smallerErik Dasque Product Manager for Mono, Ximian. Office: (+1) 617 613 2009 Cell:(+1) 617 953 9104 [EMAIL PROTECTED]/x-tad-smaller On Apr 9, 2004, at 1:07 AM, Steve Mentzer wrote: Sadly, I must agree. The mono team have made excellent progress on bringing PPC into the JIT era but. On a whim, I decided to install fedora core 1 and build mono. It built and installed without incident. Truly remarkable. I must say that I was impressed. XSP kept crashing, but that is a different story... On x86 hardware, I prefer windows xp/2003. Sorry, I love *nix, but linux doesn't do much for me on x86, especially when x86/windows offers 100% compatibility and killer dev tools. Frankly, there is no real reason to host asp.net apps under apache, when my XP box does better after locking it down. No religion here folks, just reality. OS/X and PPC is a different story. This is a situation that is DYING for an x86 crossover platform. Don't talk to me about Java if I wanted java, I wouldn't be using mono or c#. C++/wxWindows/Qt/GTK/etc... yawn. Once again, I want c#. Mono on the PPC is painful. There is no *documented*, stable or official GUI toolkit support. Hell, even the core runtime is about as stable as IIS 4. :) Beyond that, the mono releases are hit and miss. You have about a 75% chance of the build failing or getting the dreaded 'bus error'. I appreciate the new features and the roadmap, but if all mono has to offer is x86/linux stability, then mono has only succeeded in doing is providing a 'free' implementation of the .net runtime that runs on the same commodity hardware that a fully supported and commercial version runs on. Mono cannot win if it sticks to the 'linux vs. windows' card. Linux hacks hate MS and C# and .NET. Corporate windows users will be reluctant to adopt linux/mono when they can get a fully supported, commercial version from MS that will run on the same hardware. Believe it or not, most windows shops adopting .NET don't care about OS licensing costs or security. They are interested in RAD. So mono is a little like selling ice cubes to the eskimos. Now, if mono ran reliably on HPUX, sparc, linux, os/x, windows, *bsd and some other *nix variants, then you would have succeeded in beating MS at their own game. The only argument against .net now is that it isn't cross platform. If mono fills that niche, then the sky is the limit. No offense to the mono team, but you should either drop support for PPC entirely or actually concentrate on getting it as stable as x86/linux. Sorry for the long rant guys... its been a long day... :) Original Message --- my problem with gtk# personally is that mac os x is not supported. although you can find people who hacked it together, if you co it from cvs, and install it, the samples don't work. i don't have a linux box, only a mac, and i would love to play with mono on it, but it's been two months now, and i don't feel any closer. there are also problems with xsp, and sometimes mono doesn't compile either (i mean cvs version). regards, Grudgingly, I have to agree with above statement(s). Mono support for Mac OS X/ PPC is fragile at best. I even tried to put together a page on the basic steps ( http://homepage.mac.com/griffincaprio/mono/RunningMonoOnMacOSX.html ), but I have all but given up trying to maintain that page. This is because mono not reliable from day to day, release to release, on the PPC / Mac OS X platform. I am not saying that running off the CVS tree is the most stable way to work, but this goes for the releases also. 0.29 worked on the PPC, 0.30 didn't without some major
RE: Re: [Mono-list] I give up / Mac OS X PPC support
I would add that Free software is not free as in free beer. It is free as in freedom to do what you want with it, and with freedom comes responsibility. At first glance, since I have only seen this snippet of his original post, if urgent Mac OSX support is that important to Mr. Mentzer, then he could actually lend his support in the form of either evaluating the source of the problems, fixing the problems himself and submitting patches, or both. My $0.02 (which is more than any of us pay to use this software). Greg On Fri, 2004-04-09 at 13:32 -0400, Lee Malatesta wrote: Steve Mentzer wrote: No offense to the mono team, but you should either drop support for PPC entirely or actually concentrate on getting it as stable as x86/linux. I think that this is exactly what the good folks on the mono team are doing and I, for one, applaud their efforts. The mono project on the PPC platform has come a long way and it should only continue to get better. Perhaps the work isn't coming along as fast as I would like, but this is mostly true of all software projects I've been interested in whether open or proprietary. Good coding takes time. Regards, Lee ___ Mono-list maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.ximian.com/mailman/listinfo/mono-list ___ Mono-list maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.ximian.com/mailman/listinfo/mono-list
RE: Re: [Mono-list] I give up / Mac OS X PPC support
One thing to note: Not everyone has time to contribute to an open source project to fix their problems. We have enough things to do as it is to start working on the stuff that should 'just work' so we can get to the real job at hand. (: Also, not everyone has the skill to look through a huge project like mono to find fix a problem that they have no idea how it is happening.. or where.. or why.. and do you really want someone that doesn't know what they're doing fixing it? I guess this lays on the foundation of OSS though. My $0.02.. hehe (: Cheers, Curtis. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gregory Junker Sent: April 9, 2004 10:45 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Re: [Mono-list] I give up / Mac OS X PPC support I would add that Free software is not free as in free beer. It is free as in freedom to do what you want with it, and with freedom comes responsibility. At first glance, since I have only seen this snippet of his original post, if urgent Mac OSX support is that important to Mr. Mentzer, then he could actually lend his support in the form of either evaluating the source of the problems, fixing the problems himself and submitting patches, or both. My $0.02 (which is more than any of us pay to use this software). Greg On Fri, 2004-04-09 at 13:32 -0400, Lee Malatesta wrote: Steve Mentzer wrote: No offense to the mono team, but you should either drop support for PPC entirely or actually concentrate on getting it as stable as x86/linux. I think that this is exactly what the good folks on the mono team are doing and I, for one, applaud their efforts. The mono project on the PPC platform has come a long way and it should only continue to get better. Perhaps the work isn't coming along as fast as I would like, but this is mostly true of all software projects I've been interested in whether open or proprietary. Good coding takes time. Regards, Lee ___ Mono-list maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.ximian.com/mailman/listinfo/mono-list ___ Mono-list maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.ximian.com/mailman/listinfo/mono-list ___ Mono-list maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.ximian.com/mailman/listinfo/mono-list
RE: Re: [Mono-list] I give up / Mac OS X PPC support
-Original Message- From: Steve Mentzer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 09, 2004 1:07 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Re: [Mono-list] I give up / Mac OS X PPC support snip On x86 hardware, I prefer windows xp/2003. Sorry, I love *nix, but linux doesn't do much for me on x86, especially when x86/windows offers 100% compatibility and killer dev tools. Frankly, there is no real reason to host asp.net apps under apache, when my XP box does better after locking it down. No religion here folks, just reality. snip Hi Steve, I just wanted to mention that saving many thousands of dollars is a real reason for many of us. No religion. Just reality. Robert ___ Mono-list maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.ximian.com/mailman/listinfo/mono-list
Re: [Mono-list] I give up / Mac OS X PPC support
Hello, Yes, Mono on MacOS X is not ready. We will have a proper announcement when it is ready for consumption. We are aware of the bugs, and the problems on the engine, you will do yourself a service by just waiting at this point, trying to compile Mono on MacOS is only frustrating at this time. I wish I heard the above statement two months ago ;) It's not so much that it isn't ready, it more of the goose chase I felt I was on. I kept finding little scraps of information about compiling Mono/PPC. A lot of 'Try XXX, it worked for me'. If someone or some documentation simply stated that Mono/PPC wasn't ready for developers to compile, i would have switched modes from trying to use it to trying to help fix it. There were a number of factors: * The Mono PPC at one point was self-hosting, but we found a few problems that lead to some rearchitecting of the code, and which partially lead to the current situation. * Today, given all the problems people are having, and the little or no experience in PPC from the community, there are very few fixes or debugging capability. Given that the experience that most people with PPC is close to zero, at this point its best to recommend people to just wait for us to be finished. I will keep following the development, and I hope to contribute some day. One question I do have for everyone is who owns the Mono/PPC port? Is there someone steering it that I should be contacting directly, or is it more of a free for all? Paolo is responsible, but sending him private email will not be useful, you will only slow things down. The best way of moving forward is making the full regression test suite pass since bugs can be easily tracked down there, but they require PPC knowledge. Larger bug reports as in `Gtk# does not work' are just a consequence of existing problems in the implementation. Miguel. ___ Mono-list maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.ximian.com/mailman/listinfo/mono-list
Re: [Mono-list] I give up / Mac OS X PPC support
my problem with gtk# personally is that mac os x is not supported. although you can find people who hacked it together, if you co it from cvs, and install it, the samples don't work. i don't have a linux box, only a mac, and i would love to play with mono on it, but it's been two months now, and i don't feel any closer. there are also problems with xsp, and sometimes mono doesn't compile either (i mean cvs version). regards, Grudgingly, I have to agree with above statement(s). Mono support for Mac OS X/ PPC is fragile at best. I even tried to put together a page on the basic steps ( http://homepage.mac.com/griffincaprio/mono/RunningMonoOnMacOSX.html ), but I have all but given up trying to maintain that page. This is because mono not reliable from day to day, release to release, on the PPC / Mac OS X platform. I am not saying that running off the CVS tree is the most stable way to work, but this goes for the releases also. 0.29 worked on the PPC, 0.30 didn't without some major hacking. 0.31 doesn't work reliably, either. Some of the steps I have taken to compile mono include: - configure switches - external, 3rd party source downloads - editing actual code/headers to accommodate the PPC platform. What's worse, is that when I encounter errors, i receive almost no help on the mailing lists. Some of these are not doubt strange errors, and some are very common, but my posts go unanswered either way. I haven't even gotten to gtk#... Segmentation faults, bus errors, frozen compiles, etc The list goes on and on. I hope to come back to mono in a few months, when/if PPC support is better. But for now, I feel that it's a lost cause. - Griffin ___ Mono-list maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.ximian.com/mailman/listinfo/mono-list
Re: [Mono-list] I give up / Mac OS X PPC support
Hello, Grudgingly, I have to agree with above statement(s). Mono support for Mac OS X/ PPC is fragile at best. I even tried to put together a page on the basic steps ( http://homepage.mac.com/griffincaprio/mono/RunningMonoOnMacOSX.html ), but I have all but given up trying to maintain that page. This is because mono not reliable from day to day, release to release, on the PPC / Mac OS X platform. Yes, Mono on MacOS X is not ready. We will have a proper announcement when it is ready for consumption. We are aware of the bugs, and the problems on the engine, you will do yourself a service by just waiting at this point, trying to compile Mono on MacOS is only frustrating at this time. ___ Mono-list maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.ximian.com/mailman/listinfo/mono-list
RE: [Mono-list] I give up / Mac OS X PPC support
Hello, Down the road you may be able to run gtk-sharp on Mac or Windows, or run Windows.Forms on *nix and Mac, but I would not recommend that, since - Gtk is the native UI platform for *nix - Windows.Forms is the native UI platform for Windows - and, Cocoa is the native UI platform for Mac OS X You will NOT achieve a native look and feel using a NON-native UI platform! That is my opinion, and is the current trend amongst many other developers. Just look at java.awt and you know what I'm talking about. Gtk can use an underlying engine to render to the system. Until recently, I was unaware that MacOS X had a thing called the Appearance Manager which is some kind of library to do this. Someone might be interested in doing a theme for Gtk+ that uses this. The other half of the equation would be to get the keybindings to match the MacOS X, but that one is simpler than getting the theme done. Miguel just checked in some runtime fixes about 1 hour ago, and Paolo is working on it as far as I know full time! And Martin Baulig is joining us full time as wlel. ___ Mono-list maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.ximian.com/mailman/listinfo/mono-list
RE: [Mono-list] I give up / Mac OS X PPC support
About xsp: you need to patch mcs/class/System.Web/System.Web.Configuration/WebConfigurationSettings.cs Remove the throw exception when both web.config and Web.config are present. Other then that it should work. (with mint and --with-gc=boehm). - Urs -Original Message- From: Attila Balogh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 5:26 PM To: Urs Muff; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Mono-list] I give up / Mac OS X PPC support hello, Urs Muff wrote: I feel your pain, trust me! One thing I have to say: installing mono has gotten much easier: - Install fink from fink.sourceforge.net - Make sure to be adding the unstable tree (either with Fink Commander - Preferences - Fink - use unstable packages - use unstable cryptography packages Or by adding unstable/main unstable/crypto in the line Tree: of the file /sw/etc/fink.conf - do a self update 'fink selfupdate-cvs' - install mono 'fink install mono' That's it! It installs all the dependencies and it just works. Right now it's 0.31. that 's true, also usually it's possible to compile the cvs version on top of this. (sometimes not ;] ) I got gtk-sharp compiling on my local machine but it is not working to a point where we can use it. I also got it compiled, but i couldn't run _any_ of the samples. (system.dllnotfoundexception: libgtk-win32-2.0-0.dll - /sw/etc/mono/config seems to be correct, DYLD_LIBRARY_PATH=/sw/lib)) I'm working on a Cocoa / Objective-C integration using Xcode and Interface Builder for Mac OS X and Mono. could You tell a little bit more about this? Down the road you may be able to run gtk-sharp on Mac or Windows, or run Windows.Forms on *nix and Mac, but I would not recommend that, since - Gtk is the native UI platform for *nix - Windows.Forms is the native UI platform for Windows i really don't know nothing about gtk, but about WinForms i do not think that it would feel like a native UI platform for Windows. can You tell any applications that You regularly use and is created with WinForms? (if You use Windows at all ;] ) For me it still feels really fragile and too robust in the same time. I have one more question concerning mono on mac: xsp. Did anyone successfully run it ever? Regards, Attila ___ Mono-list maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.ximian.com/mailman/listinfo/mono-list
Re: [Mono-list] I give up / Mac OS X PPC support
Yes, Mono on MacOS X is not ready. We will have a proper announcement when it is ready for consumption. We are aware of the bugs, and the problems on the engine, you will do yourself a service by just waiting at this point, trying to compile Mono on MacOS is only frustrating at this time. I wish I heard the above statement two months ago ;) It's not so much that it isn't ready, it more of the goose chase I felt I was on. I kept finding little scraps of information about compiling Mono/PPC. A lot of 'Try XXX, it worked for me'. If someone or some documentation simply stated that Mono/PPC wasn't ready for developers to compile, i would have switched modes from trying to use it to trying to help fix it. As it stands, i just got frustrated thinking i wasn't doing something correctly. The lack of response from the lists seemed to confirm my feelings, because i assumed I was asking bad questions that had already been answered somewhere else. I just got burnt out I guess. I will keep following the development, and I hope to contribute some day. One question I do have for everyone is who owns the Mono/PPC port? Is there someone steering it that I should be contacting directly, or is it more of a free for all? Thanks, Griffin ___ Mono-list maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.ximian.com/mailman/listinfo/mono-list
RE: Re: [Mono-list] I give up / Mac OS X PPC support
Sadly, I must agree. The mono team have made excellent progress on bringing PPC into the JIT era but. On a whim, I decided to install fedora core 1 and build mono. It built and installed without incident. Truly remarkable. I must say that I was impressed. XSP kept crashing, but that is a different story... On x86 hardware, I prefer windows xp/2003. Sorry, I love *nix, but linux doesn't do much for me on x86, especially when x86/windows offers 100% compatibility and killer dev tools. Frankly, there is no real reason to host asp.net apps under apache, when my XP box does better after locking it down. No religion here folks, just reality. OS/X and PPC is a different story. This is a situation that is DYING for an x86 crossover platform. Don't talk to me about Java if I wanted java, I wouldn't be using mono or c#. C++/wxWindows/Qt/GTK/etc... yawn. Once again, I want c#. Mono on the PPC is painful. There is no *documented*, stable or official GUI toolkit support. Hell, even the core runtime is about as stable as IIS 4. :) Beyond that, the mono releases are hit and miss. You have about a 75% chance of the build failing or getting the dreaded 'bus error'. I appreciate the new features and the roadmap, but if all mono has to offer is x86/linux stability, then mono has only succeeded in doing is providing a 'free' implementation of the .net runtime that runs on the same commodity hardware that a fully supported and commercial version runs on. Mono cannot win if it sticks to the 'linux vs. windows' card. Linux hacks hate MS and C# and .NET. Corporate windows users will be reluctant to adopt linux/mono when they can get a fully supported, commercial version from MS that will run on the same hardware. Believe it or not, most windows shops adopting .NET don't care about OS licensing costs or security. They are interested in RAD. So mono is a little like selling ice cubes to the eskimos. Now, if mono ran reliably on HPUX, sparc, linux, os/x, windows, *bsd and some other *nix variants, then you would have succeeded in beating MS at their own game. The only argument against .net now is that it isn't cross platform. If mono fills that niche, then the sky is the limit. No offense to the mono team, but you should either drop support for PPC entirely or actually concentrate on getting it as stable as x86/linux. Sorry for the long rant guys... its been a long day... :) Original Message --- my problem with gtk# personally is that mac os x is not supported. although you can find people who hacked it together, if you co it from cvs, and install it, the samples don't work. i don't have a linux box, only a mac, and i would love to play with mono on it, but it's been two months now, and i don't feel any closer. there are also problems with xsp, and sometimes mono doesn't compile either (i mean cvs version). regards, Grudgingly, I have to agree with above statement(s). Mono support for Mac OS X/ PPC is fragile at best. I even tried to put together a page on the basic steps ( http://homepage.mac.com/griffincaprio/mono/RunningMonoOnMacOSX.html ), but I have all but given up trying to maintain that page. This is because mono not reliable from day to day, release to release, on the PPC / Mac OS X platform. I am not saying that running off the CVS tree is the most stable way to work, but this goes for the releases also. 0.29 worked on the PPC, 0.30 didn't without some major hacking. 0.31 doesn't work reliably, either. Some of the steps I have taken to compile mono include: - configure switches - external, 3rd party source downloads - editing actual code/headers to accommodate the PPC platform. What's worse, is that when I encounter errors, i receive almost no help on the mailing lists. Some of these are not doubt strange errors, and some are very common, but my posts go unanswered either way. I haven't even gotten to gtk#... Segmentation faults, bus errors, frozen compiles, etc The list goes on and on. I hope to come back to mono in a few months, when/if PPC support is better. But for now, I feel that it's a lost cause. - Griffin ___ Mono-list maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.ximian.com/mailman/listinfo/mono-list ___ Mono-list maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.ximian.com/mailman/listinfo/mono-list
