Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance

2014-01-20 Thread Joseph Maurer
Hi John and All,

Logos, logic.  These two words are close.  Is this accidental or
metaphysical?  I opt for DQ/SQ metaphysics.  How can I experience the
indefinable?  DQ/SQ metaphysics provides the answer through a logic of
indefinable/definable reality.  Definition is through DQ/SQ logos in two
ways, experience and logic.

Joe 


On 1/19/14 10:40 AM, John Carl ridgecoy...@gmail.com wrote:

 Joe,
 
 You think DQ dwells in logos?
 
 imo it dwells in mythos, as Pirsig said:
 
 'The ancient Greeks,' I say, who were the inventors of classical
 reason, knew better than to use it exclusively to foretell the future. They
 listened to the wind and predicted the future from that. That sounds insane
 now. But why should the inventors of reason sound insane?
 
 John
 
 
 
 On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 12:31 PM, Joseph Maurer jh...@comcast.net wrote:
 
 Hi John and All,
 
 Logos and logic.  Imho DQ dwells in all realities.  Indefinable occurs in
 all reality DQ/SQ.  Freedom is sacred.
 
 Joe
 
 
 On 1/17/14 11:27 AM, John Carl ridgecoy...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 The best you could say is DQ is undefined,
 not indefinable.
 
 
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Re: [MD] 42

2014-01-20 Thread John Carl
Andre,


I have two things in mind: a very general question of why are we here on
 earth? What is our purpose here?

 The second thing that mingles with this is Pirsig's variant on the
 Buddhist poem on page 406 of LILA:
 While sustaining biological and social patterns
 Kill all intellectual patterns...and then follow Dynamic Quality and
 morality will be served

 It appears to me that these lines refer to a non-dual perspective...the
 fusing of what Paul, in his paper terms an epistemological and an
 ontological context.
 Presently the vast majority of the purpose of education seems to lie not
 even close to either the epistemological nor the ontological context: it is
 presented as driven by the given: driven by economics, industry, private
 and public business corporations...their values incorporated and reinforced
 through ('personal') exposure to and internalization of values serving
 their vested interests (this is the ground stuff of mainstream education
 including parental) plus a vast network of public service type values to
 keep the system going...the political economy...the giant as Pirsig refers
 to it in LILA.


J:  I'm not exactly sure what a non-dual perspective would see, but about
the Giant I agree and have a question for you, and in fact, for anybody who
can answer.  Isn't it a de facto necessity that the Giant MUST operate
according to a SOM system?  It seems that a values perspective would of
necessity be operating on a shifting scale of shades of gray and what the
system requires is a binary decision process of simple black and white in
order to function.

It just seems the checks and balances of competing selves that make up the
body of the Giant, requires the metaphysical underpinning of a certain
absoluteness of subject and object.  I ask because lately it occurs to me
that the urge to change the system is inherently a lost cause.  I'd like
to know for sure if that is so or not.

Andre:


 I see this as an emphasis on static patterns of value. My own experience
 (as a beginning teacher) left very little room for reflection let alone
 talking about purpose (apart from satisfying the needs of the giant...which
 is 'the given'...the economic garbage). A strict adherence to policy was
 called for and the (politically determined) guidelines were changed every 1
 or 2 years (depending on which party swung the scepter). There was no room
 for professional innovation, autonomy or adjustment. So very soon,
 realizing that certain prescribed methods simply did not work, one was told
 to simply follow policy...and to lower standards of academic achievement if
 it was seen that most students failed to pas exams. This of course in the
 context of a fair amount of money being available for the educational
 institution for every student who graduated.

 Currently there appears to be too much emphasis on this nowhere land
 (flatland). It is the 'sustaining (and incessantly improving) of biological
 and social patterns'...with variations/innovations occurring on the same
 old themes...and stamping these as 'creative'. The driving force of which,
 for sure, is DQ but received, guided, maintained and projected into the
 future by a commonly shared consciousness that is egocentric and
 narcissistic...just what the giant wants and feeds on (fooling everyone of
 course because the only winner is the giant and there really is no heaven
 above!).



John:  Yes!  I guess my question revolves around this egocentric narcissism
being such a driving force for the Giant, whether without it anything at
all would happen.  There's a certain amount of Giantism that's necessary
for computer chips to be assembled and programs to be produced.


Andre:

This is the sq side of the equation.

 As I hinted there appears very little to no time (or energy) to address
 the other side of the equation...the DQ side. Times to reflect, ask
 question about purpose, about arete (and not just in an economic or social
 status sense). But not only reflect on static patterns. I mean it the way
 Pirsig argues...rta, dharma and karma (evolutionary garbage and the dumping
 of this garbage).

 Those moments when it is painfully obvious (and we see this every day on
 the TV news and hear it on the radio and other social media) what the
 results are in the clinging to the static patterns of the world and the
 role that current educational policy and practices play in the perpetuation
 of this state of affairs (plus of course the consequences when you don't).

 Moments to detach oneself from these static patterns (LILA p407). Perhaps
 ways should be found to build that right into the education system and not
 have it relegated to one's 'personal/private' meditation room, one's whim
 ...or whenever time and energy is found.

 What needs to be challenged and seen through is the ego driven,
 self-centered purpose of the giant in which we are all brought up and
 subjected to accept as God given. This (self)destructive, violent and
 aggressive 

Re: [MD] 42

2014-01-20 Thread John Carl
Right on Dan;

Doing away with grades is tantamount to doing away with money. How
 could anyone keep score if there are no grades? The old adage that it
 isn't about winning so much as it is about how the game is played has
 become outdated in many people's minds. Not only is it about winning,
 but winning is everything. Those who don't go along with this premise
 are shunted aside and ostracized as being losers.



This made me think of burning man.  It's a very creative but temporary
commune of artists and the first rule through the gates is abolishing
money.   Maybe that's where the creativity comes from?

John
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