Re: [Mpls] Kids Suspended in MPS
Are behavioral problems in school generally rooted outside of school? Is it possible to greatly reduce these behavioral problems by making changes inside the schools? I was engaged in a similar type of debate about the behavior of restaurant customers when I waited tables at Denny's and other medium-price full service restaurants during the early 1980's. Under certain circumstances a lot of customers didn't leave a tip, and blacks were less likely to tip than whites. These differences in customer behavior may be rooted in conditions that exist outside of restaurants. However, I found that it was possible to improve the behavior of customers and eliminate the tipping gap between black and white customers by changing conditions inside the restaurant. The popular theory among waiters was that blacks did not feel as obligated to tip due to cultural differences rooted outside of the restaurant. Most waiters considered blacks to be inferior customers who deserved inferior service, and they figured that they could improve their tip income by giving whites better service, especially during a rush period. Some waiters went out of their way to give blacks poor service or refused to serve them at all. It occurred to me that customers who failed to leave a tip might be dissatisfied with the quality of service, and that it might be possible to reduce or eliminate the tipping gap between white and black customers by improving the quality of the service. I tested this hypothesis by recording and later analyzing the following data on every group of customers I served: demographics (number, race, gender), dollar amounts of the bill and the tip, and the times that I ordered and served food prepared in the kitchen. All customers who waited 10 minutes or less for their food paid at least a 15% tip. No one who waited more than 20 minutes left a tip. Blacks were less likely to tip than whites if they had to wait more than 10 minutes and less than 20, and the longer the wait the bigger the tipping gap. My research-based solution to the tipping gap problem was to take steps to ensure that only in a heavy rush period would anyone have to wait more than 10 minutes for their food, and in a heavy rush period no more than 12 minutes. Then I repeated the study of tipping behavior, collecting data on over 3,000 customers over a period of 6 weeks. More than one-third of my customers were black. A total of 7 customers from 3 parties didn't leave a tip (all white). No one who left a tip tipped less than 15% of the bill, and the average tip was about 20% for black, white, and mixed white and black parties. Initially most of the waiters, and later the management, figuring that a dramatic rise in tip income was spoiling the waiters, opposed the new regime. A waiter who refused to serve blacks quit after trying to get me fired. I trained and for several weeks looked after his replacement, an inexperienced white women who for a time referred to blacks as 'niggers.' After about 6 weeks she was nearly my equal as a waiter and provided the same quality of service to blacks as she did to whites. I told her that I was surprised by her seemingly positive attitude toward blacks as customers. In reply she said Why would I consciously give black people (not niggers) inferior service? If I did that they wouldn't tip as well as the whites. I generally don't like blacks, and maybe that's wrong, but I don't see why that should affect the way I do my job. I advocate a similar approach to improving classroom climate, reducing class and racial antagonisms, and reducing the suspension rate gap between black and white students in the Minneapolis Public Schools: Stay focused on making changes in the educational system that will reduce disparities in education-related outcomes. -Doug Mann MPS Board candidate http://educationright.tripod.com In a message dated 5/12/2002 6:08:10 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I agree with Brandon's comments below to the effect that we need to develop one-on-one, carefully tailored plans for students with behavioural problems and with deeper issues which are so often rooted in life outside of school. This enters into a complex process, however, and requires a substantial commitment of staff and other resources. It may well require costly cooperative programs with various social services organizations (state, county, city, or NGOs?). [snip] In my opinion, schools are a sorting mechanism, and are becoming more-so, not less-so. The political climate supports this role for schools, and those who support schools as educational institutions intimately linked with agencies dealing with the complexities of life outside the schoolyard are swimming upstream in a very strong current going the other way. [snip] ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic
Re: [Mpls] Kids Suspended in MPS
I'm sure a smart guy like Mr. Mann, who has a long history of chastising the MPS on the basis of ability grouping and other complaints, knows what he is doing when he draws an analogy between Denny's, a service company with one of the most notoriously racist histories in American corporate annals, with the people who work within the Minneapolis Public Schools. It is a not so sly way of saying that the MPS is racist and that if it stopped its racist behavior then matters would improve. If that wasn't a subtext of what Mr. Mann intended to say then his communication skills are on the fritz. My experience with MPS personnel, black, white and whatever, is that, if anything, they are less racist than the population and society at large. Yes, I'm a white male with a white male child, but I can only tell you what I know and experience. Rather than Mr. Mann's passive-aggressive inference, I'd like to ask the list straight out how they feel the MPS does in matters of race--and I'm not talking about test scores. Britt Robson Lyndale
[Mpls] Kids Suspended in MPS
When a person is ill due to smoking, drinking, or bad eating habits, doctors do not judgmentally refuse to give treatment. They still do the best they can to take care of the problem, while at the same time pursuing effective preventive programs. When children act poorly in school, the most effective remedies should be employed. I think it would be unprofessional if an educator sidestepped the issue by judgmentally emphasizing the question of Where Are The Parents. For whatever reason - the reality is that a problem exists, and it should be dealt with in the most effective manner possible. For some kids, in some instances, suspension may very well be the most effective method, I do not know. What does the research say about this issue? I can only hope that suspensions are meted out as the professionally considered best management practice. I pray that suspensions are never given as a lazy, callous, judgmental or punitive reaction. Do suspension programs result in more kids becoming productive adults, or don't they? Dave Stack Harrison ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Kids Suspended in MPS
Garwood, Robin wrote: The easiest way to find oneself in and out of prison for life is an early introduction to the juvenile justice system. Well I have to admit that the juvenile justice system never did much more for me than not incarcerating me for a long period of time, which is not to say that it couldn't have done something meaningful. If it is not clear from my posts, what I am proposing is an incremental system of student discipline with meaningful interventions (sans suspension). Such a system would begin in the classroom and would advance progressively with the final stage being the justice system. Then he writes: many people in the gay community have been arguing that sexual preference is genetically determined. AND: This typical liberal spin. My arguments had nothing to do with race. Mr. Atherton, you cannot have it both ways. Either you can draw in relatively unrelated hot-button issues (in this circumstance - and in my opinion unfairly - tailored to the characteristics of the person with whom you disagree) AND allow an equally analogous comparison of your favored policies regarding behavior to old policies regarding race, or both debating techniques are off the table. Of course you never said anything about race. Brandon never said you did. He made a comparison between your ideas about what we should do with bad children and what the prevailing attitude once was towards minority children. You can argue with this analogy on the merits. But I am so, so tired of people dismissing arguments with what they hope to be dirty, accusatory words. That's just exactly the sort of __ tripe I'd expect from you! Seriously. It's gotten old. The primary assumption of both my political and educational philosophies is that the more closely your assumptions match reality the more likely it is your solutions will be effective. Thus, assuming that ALL kids are basically good (a false assumption) leads to policies that prove ineffective for everyone. This is not to say that behavioral interventions will not work for the vast majority of children. I would estimate that only 0.5% of kids cannot be treated effectively with behavioral approaches, however it is important to admit that this maybe the case. The socialobiologic argument is complex and grates against our views of self determination, but I think that it is important to realize that a large portion of our behavior is genetically determined. To me that's not a problem, even if certain aspects of my personality are influenced by genetics it doesn't mean that I can't determine how they are expressed. In regards to my example of homosexuality being genetically determined; I pointed this out because I think that it reflects an inconsistency in Mr. Lacy's argument. It is Mr. Lacy who wares his sexual orientation on his sleeve, it's not as though I've painted him so. And, since I do not see that sexual preference implies anything negative about someone, I don't see anything wrong with using it as an example. However, it is quite different than coloring someone as a racist. I believe that it is not only possible but necessary to differentiate between bad behavior and bad children. The former leaves the door open for the hope that the individual can change for the better. The latter gives up entirely, abdicates our responsibility to the child (no one can do anything for him or her, after all), and effectively throws him or her away. To say: since you have done something bad, you are a bad person, is profoundly dehumanizing. I suppose pointing this out makes me a humanist. I suppose it does identify you as a humanist, but I never talked about throwing children away. I said that there are some children that do not belong in the public schools and I suggested alternative educational programs for them. The public is best protected when prisons are unnecessary. The students who are thrown into special schools or the juvenile justice system will leave them at some point, unless we are willing (and fiscally able) to house them in prisons for the remainder of their lives. The day children leave the systems you view as a solution, they are often - if not usually - far more dangerous than they were when they entered. More predisposed to commit crimes, more likely to wind up back in prison as adults. Is this the best way to protect the public? Call me pessimistic, but I cannot envision any time in the foreseeable future in which prisons will be unnecessary. Here again is the assumption that people are basically good and if we can only find someway of ridding society of evil influences (e.g., poverty) all will be well. I believe that these types of attitudes have resulted in a dysfunctional justice system, as well as a dysfunctional educational system. I would agree that many individuals are imprisoned inappropriately and that the prison system should do a better job of separating violent
Re: [Mpls] Kids Suspended in MPS
Bob Velez wrote: She was suspended for misbehavior on the bus. Not violence, not drugs, not kicking the teacher, not even kicking the bus driver. She was suspended for an incident that occurred on the bus in which no one was hurt, nor was anyone put in harm's way. The bus driver complained that she was being disrespectful to him and had ignored warnings about the bus rules. [snip] Suspended from bus privledges would have been appropriate if there was a real or imagined issue with the driver. Of course, my daughter had plenty to say about THIS driver's behavior as well. I drove school bus in 1990 and 1991 and would like to make a few points. First, an incident on the bus which distracts the driver from paying attention to the road puts every child on the bus in harm's way, not to mention the other drivers and pedestrians sharing the road with that bus. Short of a fully loaded semi, or cement-mixer with a full load, a schoolbus is the biggest vehicle on the streets. Second, junior high students as a group are the biggest discipline problems on a bus. A thirteen year old girl is on a bus full of kids who are the most challenging to deal with. A small provocation will almost always escalate unless it is dealt with quickly. Third, in 1991, bus-suspensions were not issued until a child had been written up three times in a school year. I doubt that has drastically changed, so any child who is suspended from the bus is a repeat problem. Students are seldom written up for a first offense. Most drivers will talk to (or yell at) a student the first time. Unless a student is a problem again and again, it's not worth the headaches to write up an offense. So on top of the three written reports it takes to get a student suspended from the bus, there are probably a half-dozen or so other incidents that weren't reported. Most of the drivers I worked with treated suspension from the bus as a very serious matter. Not only does a driver have to spend the time on the paperwork, but they also have a very good chance of having to talk to an irate parent the next morning, gettting a second day's work off to a bad start. On top of that, suspension will make some students' behavior worse, eventually leading to having to ban a kid from the bus entirely. Finally, in an accident, students who are properly seated get hurt much less than those who are standing or in the aisle. In the case of a sudden stop, a student standing in the aisle launches forward. The only things to stop the student flying down the aisle are the windshield, the unpadded front dashboard, or the gearshift. When any of those stops someone, the injuries are seldom minor. Breaking the rules on the bus can be very dangerous. Most children see infractions such as standing in the aisle as minor and don't believe it endangers anyone. Would you care to explain to another parent that their child was seriously injured because your daughter distracted the bus driver and the bus was involved in an accident? Or worse, think how you'd feel as the driver, having to explain to a parent that their daughter was injured or killed because she wouldn't remain in her seat in spite of repeated warnings. Dave Polaschek Marcy-Holmes ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Kids Suspended in MPS
I don't think that it was the Minneapolis School Board that chose the profiles of learning -- I believe these were requirements imposed on all schools by the Legislature. The legislature also seems to have a fight about them every year, when right-wing legislators try to remove them. I don't see how this one can be blamed on our local school board. I believe these disparities are due, in large part, to policies approved by the board, such as the promotion of ability-grouping, the adoption of incoherent curricula, outcome-based education (profiles of learning) . . . -Doug Mann MPS board candidate ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Kids Suspended in MPS
I don't think that it was the Minneapolis School Board that chose the profiles of learning -- I believe these were requirements imposed on all schools by the Legislature. The legislature also seems to have a fight about them every year, when right-wing legislators try to remove them. I don't see how this one can be blamed on our local school board. Tim Bonham, Ward 12, Standish-Ericcson. I believe these disparities are due, in large part, to policies approved by the board, such as the promotion of ability-grouping, the adoption of incoherent curricula, outcome-based education (profiles of learning) . . . -Doug Mann MPS board candidate ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Kids Suspended in MPS
Brandon Lacy Campos wrote: I have indeed seen the movie Bully, and I would challenge you that in the movie Bully, the bully was indeed a product of his environment and not some faulty genes. I could argue this point, but it is not Minneapolis specific. The reason I mentioned the film was not to prove my point on genetics, but to illustrate that there are some children who do not fit in the general student population. Many of the kids in the movie could have been helped by a continuation school, others may have been better off in the juvenile justice system rather than ending up in prison for life. Further, anyone who has taken a biology class can tell you that there is little evidence of an evil gene, but a lot of evidence of the effects of environment on a young person. I never said that there is an evil gene, I said that there are some personality traits whose expression is normally distributed across the population. If you have forgotten, many people in the gay community have been arguing that sexual preference is genetically determined. And, I won't argue that there is indeed ...a lot of evidence of the effects of environment on a young person. My argument is that there is a small percentage of individuals upon whom environment will have little influence: much as you cannot MAKE some homosexuals straight. While I do not think that a simply intervention with the parents would be the end answer, it is a beginning. I agree; but maybe you wouldn't want to visit them at home. Mr. Atherton's assertions sound loudly like the same assertions used in this country some fifty years ago: put the negro children separate schools. They have different needs than the rest. This typical liberal spin. My arguments had nothing to do with race. Mr. Atherton's entire post is based on inherent genetic differences amongst children. How then do we identify the EVIL children versus the SOMETIMES-EVIL children, versus the GOOD CHILD WHO IS JUST HAVING A BAD DAY, versus the I AM A GOOD CHILD ON THE OUTSIDE, BUT INSIDE I AM THE ANTI-CHRIST? My post questions the humanist assumption that people are born in a state of grace from which they are diverted by social influences. We differentiate between good and bad on a daily basis. Children that violently attack other children or teachers are bad. It is your assumption that we cannot or should not differentiate, a position that perpetuates an environment in the schools that is not conducive to quality education. I will never apologize for my liberal view that the entire community holds the responsibility for supporting the education of our children, that the schools must partner with private and public institutions to make sure that each child has the best chance to succeed, and that each and every child has the potential to excel in the Minneapolis Public Schools and it is the essential work of the schools to find out the strengths of each child and build on those strengths to address each childs areas of need. I would never ask anyone to apologize for their opinions, however I think that electing people with views such as yours to the Minneapolis School Board will not improve the quality of education in the MPS. And, Mr. Atherton, a farm that a child cannot leave and a room that a child can not leave are still the same thing: a prison. Prisons serve different functions: one of which is to protect the public. I think that it is irrational to insist that violent children be allowed to remain in the general student population. Michael Atherton Prospect Park ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Kids Suspended in MPS
Don't be too quick to jump to conclusions: kids in the primary grades HAVE brought loaded guns to school here in Minneapolis. The biggest problem IMHO is that when the kids are suspended and sent home no one is there. The message they get is that seriously bad behavior results in a holiday. I hope you won't get too bogged down in the swamp of victimhood here: many behaviors that result in suspension seriously interfere with the learning environment for whole classrooms full of their fellow students. Think of the learning time lost for ALL students when one student is seriously disruptive. Again I ask: where are the parents? Ann Berget Parent of Four, Former School Board Member Kingfield-in-the-Eighth ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
FW: [Mpls] Kids Suspended in MPS
***For future reference to the list, if you are to refer to me by my last name, please use Mr. Lacy. That is culturally appropriate.*** The string of thought that Mr. Atherton has engaged in is short-sighted at the least and down-right terrifiying at the most. I have indeed seen the movie Bully, and I would challenge you that in the movie Bully, the bully was indeed a product of his environment and not some faulty genes. And it was an extreme case, in which extraordinary preventative measures should have been taken. Further, anyone who has taken a biology class can tell you that there is little evidence of an evil gene, but a lot of evidence of the effects of environment on a young person. While I do not think that a simply intervention with the parents would be the end answer, it is a beginning. Mr. Atherton's assertions sound loudly like the same assertions used in this country some fifty years ago: put the negro children separate schools. They have different needs than the rest. Mr. Atherton's entire post is based on inherent genetic differences amongst children. How then do we identify the EVIL children versus the SOMETIMES-EVIL children, versus the GOOD CHILD WHO IS JUST HAVING A BAD DAY, versus the IAM A GOOD CHILD ON THE OUTSIDE, BUT INSIDE I AM THE ANTI-CHRIST? I will never apologize for my liberal view that the entire community holds the responsibility for supporting the education of our children, that the schools must partner with private and public institutions to make sure that each child has the best chance to succeed, and that each and every child has the potential to excel in the Minneapolis Public Schools and it is the essential work of the schools to find out the strengths of each child and build on those strengths to address each childs areas of need. I will never apologize for having the belief that no child should be left behind. And, Mr. Atherton, a farm that a child cannot leave and a room that a child can not leave are still the same thing: a prison. -Brandon Lacy Campos -Powderhorn Park -Candidate for the MPLS Board of Education [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Kids Suspended in MPS
Audrey Johnson wrote: It is an alarming number of children to be suspended. However, there were not 20,000 different students suspended. I believe the actual number is about 9,000 students. Some of these students were suspended multiple times. I do not know the cause of every suspension, but no students are suspended for truancy. The policy has been changed for the last 2 years. I think that the point here is that some of us seem to believe that suspension is not a productive policy and don't understand why the district continues to use it. I spoke to another teacher who was punched so severely by a kindergartner in her glasses that she had 2 black eyes. Still another told me about the worst bite of her life that she got from a little kindergartner. She had to be taken to the hospital and treated for an infection in her arm. Yet another recounted how a kindergartener threw a chair through a window in the first week of school. These stories go on and on... When these incidents take place, the social worker is immediately called in and they start to investigate what is going on with each child, that at such a young age, such behavior would occur. I would certainly agree involving a social worker early is a good policy. The younger children who are suspended are suspended for behavior that is dangerous to other students and staff: biting, fighting, spitting, and weapons violations. There is a city wide discipline policy. I believe it is posted on the MPS web page. It is being reviewed by the administration. Most every site has an in school suspension room. That is usually reserved for lesser infractions of the policy. It would be great to have lots more counselors and support staff on every site to help children in their anger management and behavior challenges. But cutting $60,000,000. over 2 years does not allow for those types of staff in the numbers that they are needed at every site. There are social workers at every site, but again, their case loads are very high. They are the ones who are usually in touch with families. Some sites have family liaisons who also work with contacting families. I don't understand why this is an excuse for continuing suspensions. Disciplinary study rooms could be maintained by student interns or parent volunteers. Many of our kindergarteners come into school with very low school readiness skills. While there is some screening for mental illness and behavior challenges, not every student is reached before entering school. Some parents come the first day, or within the first 2 weeks to register their child or children for school after the year has started. So for many kids, the first time the district sees them is the first day of school or in some cases, several days or weeks after school has begun. If this is regularly the case why doesn't the district have transition programs for these students? There is work being done to help screen children for mental health and behavior problems. But you should know that our state is ranked 50th in early childhood education funding. So early childhood school readiness is not a priority of the Governor or the current state legislature. I believe that this is a shame. I believe that the government should be responsible for daycare as well as kindergarten, but I don't think that the public is ready to pay for it yet. If there were more quality programs in early childhood readiness programs, then no doubt more children would be identified as needing help. Our ECFE programs do provide opportunities to spot such behavior generally. And interventions are usually brought in to help. These are services that, in many cases, come through the county wide mental health collaborative. Well it's nice to see that there are programs to help children from troubled homes, the question remains as to how effective these programs are and if they are effective why the MPS have such horrible test scores and dismal success rates. Michael Atherton Prospect Park ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Kids Suspended in MPS
Here we go... Michael Atherton writes: Many of the kids in the movie ... may have been better off in the juvenile justice system rather than ending up in prison for life. The easiest way to find oneself in and out of prison for life is an early introduction to the juvenile justice system. Then he writes: many people in the gay community have been arguing that sexual preference is genetically determined. AND: This typical liberal spin. My arguments had nothing to do with race. Mr. Atherton, you cannot have it both ways. Either you can draw in relatively unrelated hot-button issues (in this circumstance - and in my opinion unfairly - tailored to the characteristics of the person with whom you disagree) AND allow an equally analogous comparison of your favored policies regarding behavior to old policies regarding race, or both debating techniques are off the table. Of course you never said anything about race. Brandon never said you did. He made a comparison between your ideas about what we should do with bad children and what the prevailing attitude once was towards minority children. You can argue with this analogy on the merits. But I am so, so tired of people dismissing arguments with what they hope to be dirty, accusatory words. That's just exactly the sort of __ tripe I'd expect from you! Seriously. It's gotten old. Then Mr. Atherton writes: Children that violently attack other children or teachers are bad. It is your assumption that we cannot or should not differentiate, a position that perpetuates an environment in the schools that is not conducive to quality education. I believe that it is not only possible but necessary to differentiate between bad behavior and bad children. The former leaves the door open for the hope that the individual can change for the better. The latter gives up entirely, abdicates our responsibility to the child (no one can do anything for him or her, after all), and effectively throws him or her away. To say: since you have done something bad, you are a bad person, is profoundly dehumanizing. I suppose pointing this out makes me a humanist. Finally, Michael writes: Prisons serve different functions: one of which is to protect the public. The public is best protected when prisons are unnecessary. The students who are thrown into special schools or the juvenile justice system will leave them at some point, unless we are willing (and fiscally able) to house them in prisons for the remainder of their lives. The day children leave the systems you view as a solution, they are often - if not usually - far more dangerous than they were when they entered. More predisposed to commit crimes, more likely to wind up back in prison as adults. Is this the best way to protect the public? Robin Garwood Seward ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: FW: [Mpls] Kids Suspended in MPS
W. Brandon Lacy Campos said: Further, anyone who has taken a biology class can tell you that there is little evidence of an evil gene, but a lot of evidence of the effects of environment on a young person. There are other environmental issues that might also be taken into account: air and water pollution, pesticides and herbicides and what was in the bodies of parents at the time of conception, the PCBs and other poisons documented in mother's milk, lead poisoning in the home, heavy metals in the stack bloom downwind of the garbage burner. Rise in the incidence of asthma leads me to think that there is much more to be considered because this kind of behavior by children so very young doesn't make sense. WizardMarks, Central _ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Kids Suspended in MPS
On Sunday, May 12, 2002, at 08:19 PM, Rick wrote: Hello all, I do appreciate all the comments and suggestions but pardon me, how would we pay for all of this?!!! According to my calculations, the 3% tax decrease that George W gave his wealthy buddies is enough to nearly TRIPLE the number of teachers in the United States AND raise their average salary. Another good source would be the increased defense spending that W wants. That increase is greater than the entire defense budget of Britain. How about all the money everybody wants to spend on a damn sports stadium? The problem is that, as a culture, we favor sports heroes and deride our intellectuals. This culture exists strongly in our schools where smart kids learn to hide their intellect and are indirectly and even DIRECTLY told not to make the other kids look bad. In short, competition in the classroom is frowned upon but lauded in gym class. The entire system is flawed. Yes, when I have kids I will send them to a private school because I don't want them to suffer through what I and many of friends suffered. How will I pay for it? I don't know but I will find a way because their education is a hell of lot more important than red-herrings like drug-wars, terrorist threats and sports stadiums. Robert Schmid Central ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Kids Suspended in MPS
No one has mentioned that while the Stribe wrote one story on this, the Pioneer Press had a four (?) part, in depth, series on it. Let's not be too parochial and ignore information from the other side of the river! (esp. when the Stribe wants to put its resources into covering Olivia.) The PP articles did indicate there were tradeoffs, like trying to manage/salvage the disruptive child vs. trying to ensure that the other 20 kids in the room have a safe and education-conducive school environment. The teacher quoted wanted to be able to teach: To me the suspension is effective because the rest of the children are able to function. A Univ of Minn lecturer worries about the feelings of the disruptive child: suspending children sends a powerful message that you don't belong. The articles suggest that we have a hyper-serious problem if we have significant numbers of kids who have not been trained or socialized or civilized enough by their parents to sufficiently self-control their behaviors. Joe Soucheray in a column related to the series suggested we better start building more jails. Congrats to the Pioneer Press on a great series. More of us should read it. go soon to http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/news/ and search on suspensions Alan Shilepsky Downtown http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/living/education/3210266.htm Posted on Tue, May. 07, 2002 Suspending very young can harm more than help BY PAUL TOSTO Pioneer Press When a kindergartener walked into St. Paul's Hayden Heights Elementary School last year clutching a bag holding her grandfather's loaded handgun, the discipline decision was easy. State law requires that any child who brings a gun to school face expulsion. Most of the incidents triggering suspensions for the state's youngest learners, however, are rarely that clear cut. Minnesota public schools reported nearly 4,000 suspensions of kindergarteners, first- and second-graders during the past two years. Disorderly conduct, fighting and other major offenses were the main reasons those children, most 5 to 8 years old, were put out of school, state and local data show. Others were suspended for defiance, persistent lack of cooperation and indecent exposure. They were typically removed for one to three days. Mental health experts and psychologists say that although children need consequences for misbehavior, little good comes from suspending children so young. LaVonne Carlson, a lecturer in early childhood education at the University of Minnesota, calls out-of-school suspension extremely inappropriate. The punishment really doesn't teach a whole lot. It can produce anger. It can produce fear. It can also teach kids not to get caught. Teachers, though, say even the smallest kids come to school these days with rougher edges sharpened by toxic media and home lives that often teach the wrong way to settle scores. They say that suspension is a last resort but that for some students, there is no other choice. The 99 percent of the kids that are making good choices and are at school to learn and cooperating with teachers, it is beneficial to them when (misbehaving) children are removed and those other children do not have to put up with the behavior and the language, says Janet Kujat, a kindergarten teacher at North Star Community School in Minneapolis. To me the suspension is effective because the rest of the children are able to function, she says. We all deserve to be treated with respect and taught in an environment that is safe and free of pollution of any kind. North Star, a K-5 school with a high rate of students living in poverty, suspended 167 kids, or about 22 percent of its student body during last year, including 16 kindergarteners. No public school in Minnesota suspended more kindergarteners. More than 70 percent of all the kindergarten, first- and second-grade suspensions reported to the Minnesota Department of
Re: [Mpls] Kids Suspended in MPS
In a message dated 5/12/2002 9:58:16 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It is an alarming number of children to be suspended. However, there were not 20,000 different students suspended. I believe the actual number is about 9,000 students. Is there anything going on in the classrooms that may be contributing to this problem? At Audubon Elementary School I noted that the behavior of some children change dramatically, and for the worse, from kindergarten to grade one. Seemingly happy, well behaved children in kindergarten became troubled, disruptive kids after being placed in a low-ability reading group at the beginning of the school year in the first grade. Most of those so-called low-ability learners made little progress in learning to read prior to the beginning of fourth grade. We know that there are huge disparities in educational outcomes, such as suspension rates, test scores, and graduation rates between white and black students, between students who do or do not qualify for free and reduced-price lunches. I believe these disparities are due, in large part, to policies approved by the board, such as the promotion of ability-grouping, the adoption of incoherent curricula, outcome-based education (profiles of learning) and an extremely high concentration of inexperienced teachers at certain schools. It should be noted that the test score gap between white and black students and between poor and non-poor students was greatly reduced between 1970 and the mid-1980's. Since then the gap has been getting wider. For example, the difference between average NAEP* reading scores for white and black 13 year olds decreased from 39 points in 1971 to 18 points in 1988, then increased to 32 points in 1996. *National Assessment of Educational Progress A widening of the academic achievement gap is the result of a major shift in educational policy which followed the release in 1983 of a report titled A nation at risk, which was produced by a panel of K-12 experts selected by the Reagan-Bush administration. A Nation at Risk argued that America's Public Schools had gone too far in trying to close the academic achievement gap, that the test score gap was being closed at the expense of high achieving students. However, an analysis of NAEP test scores by the Sandia National Laboratories indicated that outcomes for high achievers steadily improved while the test score gap was closing during the 1970's and 80's. If the goal of the Minneapolis Public Schools is to close the gap improve education-related outcomes for all students, the current administration and board of directors are definitely on the wrong track. -Doug Mann MPS board candidate http://educationright.tripod.com ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Kids Suspended in MPS
Greetings, again, I agree with Mr Schmid that there are alternatives to funding. No doubt the Federal Government could handle this with no problems. I do take issue with the glorification of athletes and the derision of the intellectual. My 10 year old is not much different than most. He is middle of the road in math, and english, but is accelerated in reading. Is he being encouraged to read better! YES! Is he reading at a higher level than many other kids? YES! He also has been identified as a child with leadership potential. He has been asked by his teachers to help other kids with their work and to be a leader. Is that wrong? As to the private school being a safer haven than the public schools. Let me relate to you the story told to me by a parent of a Catholic grade school student who was beaten up, rather severely, by other students. Private school is no safer. They just have the option to kick you kid out - the public schools do not. ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Kids Suspended in MPS
I just have to comment on this -- Lynelle Shire, a social worker who was driven out of Seward Montessori, I believe because of her true advocacy for all kids, and who is one of the most creative minds in dealing with kids in trouble, told me when we first started trying to figure out ways to get African American parents more involved in our school, that the best thing you can do with any kid is to give them the chance to be leaders. That the kids who are the biggest pain can often be turned around by having them work with younger children or giving them the chance to be a leader in something. Some obviously can't handle it, but it is amazing what happens to many kids who are given responsibility and where the expectation is that they can do something important well. I don't begrudge your 10 year old being challenged, etc., but we need to find ways to pull in the kids who maybe don't come in academically oriented so that they get something out of the school environment besides a rep for being bad, and then they have an investment in the school community. .diane wiley, powderhorn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Greetings, again, I agree with Mr Schmid that there are alternatives to funding. No doubt the Federal Government could handle this with no problems. I do take issue with the glorification of athletes and the derision of the intellectual. My 10 year old is not much different than most. He is middle of the road in math, and english, but is accelerated in reading. Is he being encouraged to read better! YES! Is he reading at a higher level than many other kids? YES! He also has been identified as a child with leadership potential. He has been asked by his teachers to help other kids with their work and to be a leader. Is that wrong? As to the private school being a safer haven than the public schools. Let me relate to you the story told to me by a parent of a Catholic grade school student who was beaten up, rather severely, by other students. Private school is no safer. They just have the option to kick you kid out - the public schools do not. ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Kids Suspended in MPS
Diane Wiley wrote: Did anyone else reading the paper this week have a fit when they saw that 20,000 kids were suspended in Minnehappiness last year? We have about 48,000 students in the district. I know that some of these are repeats, but still Around 400 kindergartners, over 1000 2nd graders. This is lunacy. I had two fits. One that kids in kindergarten and first grade were being sent home. Another that the information wasn't really there. Like, was it all the schools or just some of the schools. What were the offenses? Fighting? You mean two kindergarteners can't be separated by a teacher? The whole thing smells. WizardMarks, Central Diane Wiley, Powderhorn ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Kids Suspended in MPS
Actually, Diane, I absolutely agree with you. The top reasons that kids are supsended from school are fighting and skipping school. How much sense does it make that you should skip a day of school or a period of classes only to return to school and be given another school sanctioned day off. I do know that this is on the radar screen of the superintendent, but this is definately a policy that needs to not happen. -Brandon Lacy Campos -Powderhorn Park -Candidate, Board of Education Did anyone else reading the paper this week have a fit when they saw that 20,000 kids were suspended in Minnehappiness last year? We have about 48,000 students in the district. I know that some of these are repeats, but still Around 400 kindergartners, over 1000 2nd graders. This is lunacy. How can sending kids home send a message that is anything but bad. Whatever happened to detention in-school? Anyone connected with the schools have anything to say that makes sense about this? This seems to me to be an extremely lousy policy. Diane Wiley, Powderhorn ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Kids Suspended in MPS
Diane Wiley wrote: Did anyone else reading the paper this week have a fit when they saw that 20,000 kids were suspended in Minnehappiness last year? We have about 48,000 students in the district. I know that some of these are repeats, but still Around 400 kindergartners, over 1000 2nd graders. This is lunacy. How can sending kids home send a message that is anything but bad. Whatever happened to detention in-school? Anyone connected with the schools have anything to say that makes sense about this? This seems to me to be an extremely lousy policy. I believe that there should be one or more study halls or rooms where students should be sent temporally for disciplinary reasons. If students continue to be a problem in these situations they should be sent to separate continuation schools and if they fail there they should be turned over to juvenile authorities. Suspension as a disciplinary procedure is stupid and dangerous (putting kids out on the streets as punishment is ridiculous). Michael Atherton Prospect Park ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Kids Suspended in MPS
I know an even more dangerous suggestion, and that is suggesting incarceration of youth. While suspension is definately not the answer, placing students in continuation schools and/or turning them over to the authorities are definiately not the answers. Where is the parent accountability here? What happened to sending a teacher/staff liaison to a student's home to talk about the disciplinary/attendance problem with the parents ( and I propose this as an option rather than expecting a low-income/poor parent to take a day/half-day off from work to go to the school). When a student has disciplinary or any other kind of problem, the answer is developing a one-on-one plan with that student to overcome the problem/obstacles. The answer will never be to simply throw the student away either to a school that has been ghettoized by lumping all problem students together or by simply turning the student over to the juvenile INjustice system. Schools are a lot cheaper to build, run, and maintain than jail cells. Treat young people like criminals/delinquents and they will live up to our collective expectations. -Brandon Lacy Campos -Powderhorn Park -Candidate, Boad of Education [EMAIL PROTECTED] Diane Wiley wrote: Did anyone else reading the paper this week have a fit when they saw that 20,000 kids were suspended in Minnehappiness last year? We have about 48,000 students in the district. I know that some of these are repeats, but still Around 400 kindergartners, over 1000 2nd graders. This is lunacy. How can sending kids home send a message that is anything but bad. Whatever happened to detention in-school? Anyone connected with the schools have anything to say that makes sense about this? This seems to me to be an extremely lousy policy. I believe that there should be one or more study halls or rooms where students should be sent temporally for disciplinary reasons. If students continue to be a problem in these situations they should be sent to separate continuation schools and if they fail there they should be turned over to juvenile authorities. Suspension as a disciplinary procedure is stupid and dangerous (putting kids out on the streets as punishment is ridiculous). Michael Atherton Prospect Park ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Kids Suspended in MPS
I composed a response to Diane's original post this AM, but deleted it because I thought my response was too emotional. This is an emotion-tapping topic, though! I agree with Brandon's comments below to the effect that we need to develop one-on-one, carefully tailored plans for students with behavioural problems and with deeper issues which are so often rooted in life outside of school. This enters into a complex process, however, and requires a substantial commitment of staff and other resources. It may well require costly cooperative programs with various social services organizations (state, county, city, or NGOs?). It seems to me that the crux of the issue is precisely this: we live in a time when the voters are electing folks who are shrinking budgets for both educaction and social services programs. Our government is growing the prison industry as fast as possible, with private corporations building and contracting to operate prisons around the country. Meanwhile, more and more wealthy people seem to be placing their children in private schools away from the rabble and rif-raff left in the public schools. In my opinion, schools are a sorting mechanism, and are becoming more-so, not less-so. The political climate supports this role for schools, and those who support schools as educational institutions intimately linked with agencies dealing with the complexities of life outside the schoolyard are swimming upstream in a very strong current going the other way. Right now, voters are electing people who emphasize prisons rather than public education, and who in fact favor private education over increasingly underfunded and undervalued public education. Just my two cents worth at this point Gary Hoover Kingfield In a message dated 5/12/02 3:22:18 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: When a student has disciplinary or any other kind of problem, the answer is developing a one-on-one plan with that student to overcome the problem/obstacles. The answer will never be to simply throw the student away either to a school that has been ghettoized by lumping all "problem" students together or by simply turning the student over to the juvenile INjustice system. Schools are a lot cheaper to build, run, and maintain than jail cells. Treat young people like criminals/delinquents and they will live up to our collective expectations. -Brandon Lacy Campos -Powderhorn Park -Candidate, Boad of Education [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [Mpls] Kids Suspended in MPS
Hello all, I do appreciate all the comments and suggestions but pardon me, how would we pay for all of this?!!! With 3 of 4 kids currently in the Mpls School system I have to agree with the statement that parent accountability is the only answer. I also know that there are many other options that are utilized before a student is suspended including in-school suspensions. None of my kids has been suspended so I will take a position that I do not really know what it is like to have a child sent home on suspension. Thanks Rick K. Hale/Page/Diamond Lake ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Kids Suspended in MPS
It is an alarming number of children to be suspended. However, there were not 20,000 different students suspended. I believe the actual number is about 9,000 students. Some of these students were suspended multiple times. I do not know the cause of every suspension, but no students are suspended for truancy. The policy has been changed for the last 2 years. My child's first day of kindergarten was a memorable one. I waited for her by the bus stop and asked her how her first day of school went. She told me that one teacher went to the hospital in an ambulance and that she was on the floor crying when they took her away. I asked her what happened? She said another child in her class kicked the teacher and broke her leg. I was horrified, my little girl had never witnessed anything like that! I called the school. It turns out the teacher, who was 5 1/2 months pregnant, had been kicked so severely and completely blindsided that the child had dislocated her knee. She was the phy ed teacher and was out of circulation for several days after that incident. I spoke to another teacher who was punched so severely by a kindergartner in her glasses that she had 2 black eyes. Still another told me about the worst bite of her life that she got from a little kindergartner. She had to be taken to the hospital and treated for an infection in her arm. Yet another recounted how a kindergartener threw a chair through a window in the first week of school. These stories go on and on... When these incidents take place, the social worker is immediately called in and they start to investigate what is going on with each child, that at such a young age, such behavior would occur. The younger children who are suspended are suspended for behavior that is dangerous to other students and staff: biting, fighting, spitting, and weapons violations. There is a city wide discipline policy. I believe it is posted on the MPS web page. It is being reviewed by the administration. Most every site has an in school suspension room. That is usually reserved for lesser infractions of the policy. It would be great to have lots more counselors and support staff on every site to help children in their anger management and behavior challenges. But cutting $60,000,000. over 2 years does not allow for those types of staff in the numbers that they are needed at every site. There are social workers at every site, but again, their case loads are very high. They are the ones who are usually in touch with families. Some sites have family liaisons who also work with contacting families. Many of our kindergarteners come into school with very low school readiness skills. While there is some screening for mental illness and behavior challenges, not every student is reached before entering school. Some parents come the first day, or within the first 2 weeks to register their child or children for school after the year has started. So for many kids, the first time the district sees them is the first day of school or in some cases, several days or weeks after school has begun. There is work being done to help screen children for mental health and behavior problems. But you should know that our state is ranked 50th in early childhood education funding. So early childhood school readiness is not a priority of the Governor or the current state legislature. If there were more quality programs in early childhood readiness programs, then no doubt more children would be identified as needing help. Our ECFE programs do provide opportunities to spot such behavior generally. And interventions are usually brought in to help. These are services that, in many cases, come through the county wide mental health collaborative. For more information about that, you can check out the Hennepin County Alliance for Children and Families. Audrey Johnson LHE, MPS BOE and Candidate for reelection ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Kids Suspended in MPS
Brandon Lacy Campos wrote: I know an even more dangerous suggestion, and that is suggesting incarceration of youth. While suspension is definately not the answer, placing students in continuation schools and/or turning them over to the authorities are definiately not the answers. I hope that in this message I can make clear the difference between rhetoric and solutions. Mr. Campos' liberal perspective helps illustrate why the schools are in the state they are, and why progressive education continues to fail American school children. Implicit in Mr. Campos' view is the assumption that somehow bad children are just somehow just misguided; that with the proper upbringing they will all grow up to be caring and responsible citizens. I believe that this assumption is incorrect. I believe that within any human population there will be individuals who will be genetic endowed with empathy and there will be some who will be born with little or none, and that the same is true for aggression and other human traits. I also believe that until you meet one of these individuals on the extreme end of the bell curve you will never really know what fear is. How many of you have looked into the eyes of someone could kill without a second thought, or would do so just for the pleasure of watching you wither in pain? What does all this conservative rhetoric mean? It means that in contrast to liberal dogma, there are martyrs and there are murders and most everyone else is somewhere in between. But what does this mean in relation to the schools? It means that many of us will be bad once in a while and a little bit of responsibility is due (detention in a study hall). It means that some of us may, because of social or familial influences need an environment which provides intervention (a continuation school), and it means that some many need a more restrictive and structured environment (juvenile detention). What is important to realize is that you cannot mix all of these kinds of students in a public school and expect quality education. It's not that I object to counseling, I trained to be a clinical psychologist, but I know that no amount of counseling could have separated me from my friends in high school; there was way too much status, power, adventure, and love. Where is the parent accountability here? What happened to sending a teacher/staff liaison to a student's home to talk about the disciplinary/attendance problem with the parents ( and I propose this as an option rather than expecting a low-income/poor parent to take a day/half-day off from work to go to the school). Ah, the implicit liberal perspective again: It must be the parenting. Hmmm... send a teacher/staff person to someone's home. So it's not as bad here in Minneapolis, but there are a number of neighborhoods that one does not visit in L.A. Not to mention that I am pretty sure that there are some homes that one should not visit in Minneapolis (if only to avoid embarrassing the student). I believe that Mr. Campos' solutions involve a degree of naive. When a student has disciplinary or any other kind of problem, the answer is developing a one-on-one plan with that student to overcome the problem/obstacles. The answer will never be to simply throw the student away either to a school that has been ghettoized by lumping all problem students together or by simply turning the student over to the juvenile INjustice system. One of the best programs I know of involved separating troubled students into a special school where individual and group therapy were integrated into the curriculum. Although it might be appropriate for some students, one-on-one counseling programs can stigmatize a student or provide stature as the case may be. And, although it may offend liberal sensitivities, there are some kids who belong in juvenile justice system. Which is not to say that they should be locked away in a cell; some may do very well on a farm in central Minnesota. You may just be doing them a favor. Schools are a lot cheaper to build, run, and maintain than jail cells. Treat young people like criminals/delinquents and they will live up to our collective expectations. Schools should provide students with a education, not social programs. Special schools with specially trained teachers and staff can provide social programs and education... cost effectively and not at the expense of other students. BTW, if you haven't seen the film Bully I strongly recommend it (based on a true story). Michael Atherton Prospect Park ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Kids Suspended in MPS
Did anyone else reading the paper this week have a fit when they saw that 20,000 kids were suspended in Minnehappiness last year? We have about 48,000 students in the district. I know that some of these are repeats, but still Around 400 kindergartners, over 1000 2nd graders. This is lunacy. How can sending kids home send a message that is anything but bad. Whatever happened to detention in-school? Anyone connected with the schools have anything to say that makes sense about this? This seems to me to be an extremely lousy policy. Diane Wiley, Powderhorn ___ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
