Re: [mb-style] RFC-264: Add premiere-relationship between work and place
+1, just in case. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC-264: Add premiere-relationship between work and place
Den 30-10-2013 23:18, ListMyCDs.com skrev: On 30.10.2013 23:19, Frederik Freso S. Olesen wrote: A date for the première, but no information about where it happened. That sounds like an [unknown] place to me. Place might not be unknown just because artist doesn't mention it on her website. Note that my example was an entirely fictive one, meant to demonstrate a situation where no further information about that gig exists (or can be easily found). [unknown] should be last solution if information isn't available via regular channels. I don't think anyone disagrees with that or has argued otherwise... ? For artists there's [unknown] and [anonymous] clearly separating if artist is unknown to editor or unknown to everyone. The MB Artist [unknown] has also been used for storing mastering and other engineering dates (e.g., Recording Bazbar was mixed by [unknown] on 2005-05). If we only were to use [unknown] for stuff which is unknown to *everyone*, we could not ever use it, as *someone* out there might know. On the contrary, we use [unknown] when we cannot find a reliable source for who/what to use, but *someone* did do it. This could be the engineer of some Release or Recording, or it could be the Place of said engineering or recording. Or the première data of the Recording. (Since we can store the time of engineering with Artist-Recording relationships, if those are known, I think it would be a rare case (though it's probably out there...) where it would be better to AR the [unknown] Place to a Recording for engineering data rather than an [unknown] engineer.) -- Namasté, Frederik Freso S. Olesen http://freso.dk/ MB: https://musicbrainz.org/user/Freso Wiki: https://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:Freso ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC-264: Add premiere-relationship between work and place
On Tue, Oct 29, 2013 at 10:30 PM, ListMyCDs.com musicbra...@listmycds.comwrote: Many Wikipedia pages about classical works (and often also imslp.org) record information about first performances (data place) of work. I'm proposing us to start storing this information with new work-place relationship. Naturally usage of it isn't limited only to classical music. Wiki: http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:ListMyCDs.com/Premiere_Relationship_Type JIRA: http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/STYLE-264 Expiration: 2013-11-07 ListMyCDs / Timo Martikainen I love this idea. A few notes/questions: 1) Performance Relationship Class doesn't seem right. In fact, PRC is described as used to credit musicians who contribute actual sounds to the music. 2) There is an obvious use for the dates here, so why do the two date attributes say There is no guideline yet for how the [begin|end] date fields might be used.? 3) If the premiere date is known but the place is not, would this be usable with a special purpose place like [unknown]? -- -:-:- David K. Gasaway -:-:- Email: d...@gasaway.org ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC-264: Add premiere-relationship between work and place
Ignore relationship classes, we don't really use them at all anyway once the relationship is entered into the site. Similarly for the dates, that won't show when it's added so as long as it's clear that we should use the dates, that's fine. For the third issue - I'd be fine with that, only doubt is whether we'd also want an area version for when we know date and country or city or if that's not common enough to bother :) (relatedly to this, I've been wondering if we should be marking premiere recordings somehow, but that's a different discussion). Sorry for top-posting, on the phone :) On 30 Oct 2013 08:14, David Gasaway d...@gasaway.org wrote: On Tue, Oct 29, 2013 at 10:30 PM, ListMyCDs.com musicbra...@listmycds.com wrote: Many Wikipedia pages about classical works (and often also imslp.org) record information about first performances (data place) of work. I'm proposing us to start storing this information with new work-place relationship. Naturally usage of it isn't limited only to classical music. Wiki: http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:ListMyCDs.com/Premiere_Relationship_Type JIRA: http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/STYLE-264 Expiration: 2013-11-07 ListMyCDs / Timo Martikainen I love this idea. A few notes/questions: 1) Performance Relationship Class doesn't seem right. In fact, PRC is described as used to credit musicians who contribute actual sounds to the music. 2) There is an obvious use for the dates here, so why do the two date attributes say There is no guideline yet for how the [begin|end] date fields might be used.? 3) If the premiere date is known but the place is not, would this be usable with a special purpose place like [unknown]? -- -:-:- David K. Gasaway -:-:- Email: d...@gasaway.org ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC-264: Add premiere-relationship between work and place or area
On 30.10.2013 12:22, Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren wrote: only doubt is whether we'd also want an area version for when we know date and country or city or if that's not common enough to bother :) I'm extending this RFC to also include areas. I guess it's possible to use same relationship without another proposal. Wikipage now also updated with few area-examples. ListMyCDs / Timo Martikainen ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC-264: Add premiere-relationship between work and place
On 30.10.2013 8:14, David Gasaway wrote: 2) There is an obvious use for the dates here, so why do the two date attributes say There is no guideline yet for how the [begin|end] date fields might be used.? Like reosarevok already mentioned this is showen just because of the template and it will be gone later. I would have actually included dates for examples but this template doesn't seem to support it (please correct me if I'm wrong!). 3) If the premiere date is known but the place is not, would this be usable with a special purpose place like [unknown]? We could use special purpose place like this but a guideline limiting usage of it might be necessary. I wouldn't like to see it used without dates or at least without a good explanation. It's also not clear to me what would be counted as unknown. ListMyCDs / Timo Martikainen ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC-264: Add premiere-relationship between work and place
Den 30-10-2013 13:00, ListMyCDs.com skrev: On 30.10.2013 8:14, David Gasaway wrote: 3) If the premiere date is known but the place is not, would this be usable with a special purpose place like [unknown]? We could use special purpose place like this but a guideline limiting usage of it might be necessary. I wouldn't like to see it used without dates or at least without a good explanation. It's also not clear to me what would be counted as unknown. A. Random Artist has this on her website: I performed my favourite song, The Song That is My Favourite on the first Saturday of March 1999 for the first time. It was obvious the audience loved it as much as I did and do. A date for the première, but no information about where it happened. That sounds like an [unknown] place to me. -- Namasté, Frederik Freso S. Olesen http://freso.dk/ MB: https://musicbrainz.org/user/Freso Wiki: https://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:Freso ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC-264: Add premiere-relationship between work and place
On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 3:22 AM, Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren reosare...@gmail.com wrote: Ignore relationship classes, we don't really use them at all anyway once the relationship is entered into the site. Similarly for the dates, that won't show when it's added so as long as it's clear that we should use the dates, that's fine. I don't understand what you guys mean when you say these things won't show. When I look at an existing AR doc, they do show: http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Performance_Relationship_Type -- -:-:- David K. Gasaway -:-:- Email: d...@gasaway.org ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC-264: Add premiere-relationship between work and place
On 30 October 2013 21:20, David Gasaway d...@gasaway.org wrote: On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 3:22 AM, Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren reosare...@gmail.com wrote: Ignore relationship classes, we don't really use them at all anyway once the relationship is entered into the site. Similarly for the dates, that won't show when it's added so as long as it's clear that we should use the dates, that's fine. I don't understand what you guys mean when you say these things won't show. When I look at an existing AR doc, they do show: I believe they're in the process of migrating the AR documentation from the wiki to the server ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC-264: Add premiere-relationship between work and place
On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 11:20 PM, David Gasaway d...@gasaway.org wrote: On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 3:22 AM, Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren reosare...@gmail.com wrote: Ignore relationship classes, we don't really use them at all anyway once the relationship is entered into the site. Similarly for the dates, that won't show when it's added so as long as it's clear that we should use the dates, that's fine. I don't understand what you guys mean when you say these things won't show. When I look at an existing AR doc, they do show: http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Performance_Relationship_Type Those horrible pages take more than we'd like to finally kill, but yeah - http://musicbrainz.org/relationship/628a9658-f54c-4142-b0c0-95f031b544da Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC-264: Add premiere-relationship between work and place
On 30.10.2013 23:19, Frederik Freso S. Olesen wrote: A. Random Artist has this on her website: I performed my favourite song, The Song That is My Favourite on the first Saturday of March 1999 for the first time. It was obvious the audience loved it as much as I did and do. A date for the première, but no information about where it happened. That sounds like an [unknown] place to me. Place might not be unknown just because artist doesn't mention it on her website. [unknown] should be last solution if information isn't available via regular channels. For artists there's [unknown] and [anonymous] clearly separating if artist is unknown to editor or unknown to everyone. I agree that [unknown] could be useful for saving information about dates on similar situations like on your example. Fine for me if someone likes to propose it. ListMyCDs / Timo Martikainen ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC-264: Add premiere-relationship between work and place
On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 2:38 PM, Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren reosare...@gmail.com wrote: Those horrible pages take more than we'd like to finally kill, but yeah - http://musicbrainz.org/relationship/628a9658-f54c-4142-b0c0-95f031b544da Ah, I hadn't heard about this! Is there a Jira ticket with more info? -- -:-:- David K. Gasaway -:-:- Email: d...@gasaway.org ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
[mb-style] RFC-264: Add premiere-relationship between work and place
Many Wikipedia pages about classical works (and often also imslp.org) record information about first performances (data place) of work. I'm proposing us to start storing this information with new work-place relationship. Naturally usage of it isn't limited only to classical music. Wiki: http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:ListMyCDs.com/Premiere_Relationship_Type JIRA: http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/STYLE-264 Expiration: 2013-11-07 ListMyCDs / Timo Martikainen ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
