Re: [mb-style] RFC-348: Artist Credits for Recordings
2012/2/1 Frederic Da Vitoria davito...@gmail.com 2012/1/31, symphonick symphon...@gmail.com: 2012/1/31 Frederic Da Vitoria davito...@gmail.com 2012/1/31 David Gasaway d...@gasaway.org On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 11:42, Frederic Da Vitoria davito...@gmail.com wrote: For example displaying all the recordings of a work. In that case, since you started from a work, you know the composer, of course. And on other pages you have the reverse problem, thus composer disambiguation? For me, it all comes down to artist credits, and IMO composition is contribution worthy of recording credit when it comes to classical. Even if you disagree, I don't see the point in using solutions like disambiguation comments when you can just go ahead and properly link the artist with an AC. Seems a reasonable compromise to me. After all, we've gone through so much effort to remove artist credits from other titles/comments. I'm just trying to find a reasonable solution, one which solve all foreseeable problems. Yes, on other pages, I would have the reverse problem, nobody said it would be easy and that one simple solution would solve everything. I expect composer disambiguation to be needed only in rare cases. (but maybe more often if we use identical work=recording titles) Maybe not. Less frequent because usually users searching in classical will know in advance the composer they want, but any search for sonata would benefit from having the composer. I guess that if I had to choose between having composer + main performers even where I don't need all of them or missing one of them (for example the composer), I prefer the first option. I'd rather have too much info than not enough. But maybe it would be possible to remove superfluous elements when they were part of the search terms. For example, when searching for performances of a work, remove the work's composer from the display, or when searching for performances by a performer, remove that performer. This actually would be an improvement not only for classical. -- Frederic Da Vitoria (davitof) Seems there is some concern about composer disambiguation. A search in recordings for concerto piano 5 allegro (without composer shown): Recording:Piano Concerto No. 5 in D major: III. Allegro Artist:Francesco Nicolosi Release: Piano Concertos Nos. 1, 3 and 5 Recording:Concerto para piano nº 5, W521: III. Allegretto Artist:Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, Cristina Ortiz Release: 5 Piano Concertos Recording: Konzert für Klavier und Orchester Nr. 5 Es-Dur, Op. 73: III. Rondo. Allegro Artist: Емил Табаков, Anton Dikov Release:Piano Concerto No. 5 Emperor / Piano Sonata No. 8 Pathetique Recording:Piano Concerto No. 5 in C major L'Incendie par l'Orage, H. 39: III. Rondo allegro Artist:Northern Sinfonia, Benjamin Frith Release: Piano Concertos Nos. 5 and 6 With recording titles = work titles I'm not sure we even need composer disambiguation. Can anyone come up with an example that must have it? /symphonick ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC-348: Artist Credits for Recordings
2012/1/31, symphonick symphon...@gmail.com: 2012/1/31 Frederic Da Vitoria davito...@gmail.com 2012/1/31 David Gasaway d...@gasaway.org On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 11:42, Frederic Da Vitoria davito...@gmail.com wrote: For example displaying all the recordings of a work. In that case, since you started from a work, you know the composer, of course. And on other pages you have the reverse problem, thus composer disambiguation? For me, it all comes down to artist credits, and IMO composition is contribution worthy of recording credit when it comes to classical. Even if you disagree, I don't see the point in using solutions like disambiguation comments when you can just go ahead and properly link the artist with an AC. Seems a reasonable compromise to me. After all, we've gone through so much effort to remove artist credits from other titles/comments. I'm just trying to find a reasonable solution, one which solve all foreseeable problems. Yes, on other pages, I would have the reverse problem, nobody said it would be easy and that one simple solution would solve everything. I expect composer disambiguation to be needed only in rare cases. (but maybe more often if we use identical work=recording titles) Maybe not. Less frequent because usually users searching in classical will know in advance the composer they want, but any search for sonata would benefit from having the composer. I guess that if I had to choose between having composer + main performers even where I don't need all of them or missing one of them (for example the composer), I prefer the first option. I'd rather have too much info than not enough. But maybe it would be possible to remove superfluous elements when they were part of the search terms. For example, when searching for performances of a work, remove the work's composer from the display, or when searching for performances by a performer, remove that performer. This actually would be an improvement not only for classical. -- Frederic Da Vitoria (davitof) Membre de l'April - « promouvoir et défendre le logiciel libre » - http://www.april.org ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC-348: Artist Credits for Recordings
2012/1/31 David Gasaway d...@gasaway.org On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 08:55, symphonick symphon...@gmail.com wrote: http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSG2012/Recording/Credits Thought this might be a good place to start the CSG RFCs, didn't hear anything negative about this in the discussion thread. (track artists will be in another RFC later). I guess I'm just dense today. Can someone please explain the justification for excluding the composer from the AC? While the composer may not have had a direct hand in the recording, they had a rather critical indirect hand in it. Usually the qualification for an AC is .. a prominent credit on the cover/spine/back. About the closest I can find in the style guides after a quick search is Featured artists, which says That is, they are given credit on the cover or track listing of a release by another artist in a manner which elevates their contribution above normal liner note credits. Which to me, says a composer would qualify. That said, recording ACs are really murky for me. Credits for the same recording can change from release to release. Is that what this discussion is about? That's it; the recording represents audio the composer was not involved in creating it. Having performers in the recording ACs will make sense for lists of performances of a work; instead of a long list of allegros by Mozart the list will say who actually performed on that recording. The composer is not less critical outside classical? Composers are credited for the work with a composer AR. /symphonick ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC-348: Artist Credits for Recordings
2012/1/31, David Gasaway d...@gasaway.org: On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 01:09, symphonick symphon...@gmail.com wrote: That's it; the recording represents audio the composer was not involved in creating it. Having performers in the recording ACs will make sense for lists of performances of a work; instead of a long list of allegros by Mozart the list will say who actually performed on that recording. I understand why it's useful to have the performers included, I guess. But rather than deal with composer disambiguation comments, why not just include the composer to begin with. What is the practical downside of including the composer? Wouldn't it put repetitive information in pages where we could wish a more focused display? -- Frederic Da Vitoria (davitof) Membre de l'April - « promouvoir et défendre le logiciel libre » - http://www.april.org ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC-348: Artist Credits for Recordings
On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 08:45, Frederic Da Vitoria davito...@gmail.com Wouldn't it put repetitive information in pages where we could wish a more focused display? Which pages are those? From what I've gathered from earlier discussion, the information is not repetitive, since people are proposing composer disambiguation to but the recording in context. -- -:-:- David K. Gasaway -:-:- Email: d...@gasaway.org ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC-348: Artist Credits for Recordings
2012/1/31 David Gasaway d...@gasaway.org On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 08:45, Frederic Da Vitoria davito...@gmail.com Wouldn't it put repetitive information in pages where we could wish a more focused display? Which pages are those? From what I've gathered from earlier discussion, the information is not repetitive, since people are proposing composer disambiguation to but the recording in context. For example displaying all the recordings of a work. In that case, since you started from a work, you know the composer, of course. -- Frederic Da Vitoria (davitof) Membre de l'April - « promouvoir et défendre le logiciel libre » - http://www.april.org ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC-348: Artist Credits for Recordings
On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 11:42, Frederic Da Vitoria davito...@gmail.com wrote: For example displaying all the recordings of a work. In that case, since you started from a work, you know the composer, of course. And on other pages you have the reverse problem, thus composer disambiguation? For me, it all comes down to artist credits, and IMO composition is contribution worthy of recording credit when it comes to classical. Even if you disagree, I don't see the point in using solutions like disambiguation comments when you can just go ahead and properly link the artist with an AC. Seems a reasonable compromise to me. After all, we've gone through so much effort to remove artist credits from other titles/comments. -- -:-:- David K. Gasaway -:-:- Email: d...@gasaway.org ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC-348: Artist Credits for Recordings
2012/1/31 David Gasaway d...@gasaway.org On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 11:42, Frederic Da Vitoria davito...@gmail.com wrote: For example displaying all the recordings of a work. In that case, since you started from a work, you know the composer, of course. And on other pages you have the reverse problem, thus composer disambiguation? For me, it all comes down to artist credits, and IMO composition is contribution worthy of recording credit when it comes to classical. Even if you disagree, I don't see the point in using solutions like disambiguation comments when you can just go ahead and properly link the artist with an AC. Seems a reasonable compromise to me. After all, we've gone through so much effort to remove artist credits from other titles/comments. I'm just trying to find a reasonable solution, one which solve all foreseeable problems. Yes, on other pages, I would have the reverse problem, nobody said it would be easy and that one simple solution would solve everything. -- Frederic Da Vitoria (davitof) Membre de l'April - « promouvoir et défendre le logiciel libre » - http://www.april.org ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC-348: Artist Credits for Recordings
2012/1/31 Frederic Da Vitoria davito...@gmail.com 2012/1/31 David Gasaway d...@gasaway.org On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 11:42, Frederic Da Vitoria davito...@gmail.com wrote: For example displaying all the recordings of a work. In that case, since you started from a work, you know the composer, of course. And on other pages you have the reverse problem, thus composer disambiguation? For me, it all comes down to artist credits, and IMO composition is contribution worthy of recording credit when it comes to classical. Even if you disagree, I don't see the point in using solutions like disambiguation comments when you can just go ahead and properly link the artist with an AC. Seems a reasonable compromise to me. After all, we've gone through so much effort to remove artist credits from other titles/comments. I'm just trying to find a reasonable solution, one which solve all foreseeable problems. Yes, on other pages, I would have the reverse problem, nobody said it would be easy and that one simple solution would solve everything. -- Frederic Da Vitoria (davitof) Membre de l'April - « promouvoir et défendre le logiciel libre » - http://www.april.org ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style I expect composer disambiguation to be needed only in rare cases. (but maybe more often if we use identical work=recording titles) -- /symphonick ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC-348: Artist Credits for Recordings
2012/1/30, symphonick symphon...@gmail.com: 2012/1/29 Frederic Da Vitoria davito...@gmail.com 2012/1/29 Rupert Swarbrick rswarbr...@gmail.com symphonick symphon...@gmail.com writes: http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSG2012/Recording/Credits Thought this might be a good place to start the CSG RFCs, didn't hear anything negative about this in the discussion thread. (track artists will be in another RFC later). This RFC will expire on Sunday, February 5th. I'm not overly keen on this, but fine. However, this needs to have some more specific examples to be useful. For example, who should be credited for the following? (1) A symphony movement. (Orchestra and conductor?) (2) A violin sonata (Violinist and Pianist) (3) An opera chorus (4) An opera aria Until an answer can be found (and written down!) for this, I'm not at all happy. After that, I'll go skipping in the fields surrounded by butterflies and the world will be wonderful. I believe the answer is: whoever is useful for characterising (is this the correct word?) the recording, which means usually (1) both (2) both (3) probably the main opera performers (4) it depends on whether the aria is extracted from a full recording or if it is part of a recital. But this is a general rule. For example, it could be acceptable to enter only the violinist in a violin concerto, when it is known that no other recording from that violinist exists. -- Frederic Da Vitoria (davitof) I added examples of all those (just no URLs yet). 4) I'd put in soloist / conductor / orchestra regardless I'd do the same, but I wouldn't vote No on an edit which included for example only the soloist if there is no ambiguity issue. -- Frederic Da Vitoria (davitof) Membre de l'April - « promouvoir et défendre le logiciel libre » - http://www.april.org ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC-348: Artist Credits for Recordings
2012/1/30 Frederic Da Vitoria davito...@gmail.com 2012/1/30, symphonick symphon...@gmail.com: 2012/1/29 Frederic Da Vitoria davito...@gmail.com 2012/1/29 Rupert Swarbrick rswarbr...@gmail.com symphonick symphon...@gmail.com writes: http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSG2012/Recording/Credits Thought this might be a good place to start the CSG RFCs, didn't hear anything negative about this in the discussion thread. (track artists will be in another RFC later). This RFC will expire on Sunday, February 5th. I'm not overly keen on this, but fine. However, this needs to have some more specific examples to be useful. For example, who should be credited for the following? (1) A symphony movement. (Orchestra and conductor?) (2) A violin sonata (Violinist and Pianist) (3) An opera chorus (4) An opera aria Until an answer can be found (and written down!) for this, I'm not at all happy. After that, I'll go skipping in the fields surrounded by butterflies and the world will be wonderful. I believe the answer is: whoever is useful for characterising (is this the correct word?) the recording, which means usually (1) both (2) both (3) probably the main opera performers (4) it depends on whether the aria is extracted from a full recording or if it is part of a recital. But this is a general rule. For example, it could be acceptable to enter only the violinist in a violin concerto, when it is known that no other recording from that violinist exists. -- Frederic Da Vitoria (davitof) I added examples of all those (just no URLs yet). 4) I'd put in soloist / conductor / orchestra regardless I'd do the same, but I wouldn't vote No on an edit which included for example only the soloist if there is no ambiguity issue. Ok. BTW I just remembered the discussion about [unknown], so I updated http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSG2012/Recording/Credits again. ( it should really be Recording/Artist, not /Credits) /symphonick ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC-348: Artist Credits for Recordings
symphonick symphon...@gmail.com writes: Ok. BTW I just remembered the discussion about [unknown], so I updated http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSG2012/Recording/Credits again. ( it should really be Recording/Artist, not /Credits) Cool, this looks fine to me. Rupert pgpxfTfpKNnNk.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC-348: Artist Credits for Recordings
On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 11:43 AM, symphonick symphon...@gmail.com wrote: 2012/1/30 Frederic Da Vitoria davito...@gmail.com 2012/1/30, symphonick symphon...@gmail.com: 2012/1/29 Frederic Da Vitoria davito...@gmail.com 2012/1/29 Rupert Swarbrick rswarbr...@gmail.com symphonick symphon...@gmail.com writes: http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSG2012/Recording/Credits Thought this might be a good place to start the CSG RFCs, didn't hear anything negative about this in the discussion thread. (track artists will be in another RFC later). This RFC will expire on Sunday, February 5th. I'm not overly keen on this, but fine. However, this needs to have some more specific examples to be useful. For example, who should be credited for the following? (1) A symphony movement. (Orchestra and conductor?) (2) A violin sonata (Violinist and Pianist) (3) An opera chorus (4) An opera aria Until an answer can be found (and written down!) for this, I'm not at all happy. After that, I'll go skipping in the fields surrounded by butterflies and the world will be wonderful. I believe the answer is: whoever is useful for characterising (is this the correct word?) the recording, which means usually (1) both (2) both (3) probably the main opera performers (4) it depends on whether the aria is extracted from a full recording or if it is part of a recital. But this is a general rule. For example, it could be acceptable to enter only the violinist in a violin concerto, when it is known that no other recording from that violinist exists. -- Frederic Da Vitoria (davitof) I added examples of all those (just no URLs yet). 4) I'd put in soloist / conductor / orchestra regardless I'd do the same, but I wouldn't vote No on an edit which included for example only the soloist if there is no ambiguity issue. Ok. BTW I just remembered the discussion about [unknown], so I updated http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSG2012/Recording/Credits again. ( it should really be Recording/Artist, not /Credits) You mean it wasn't there all along? *whistles* /symphonick ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style -- Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC-348: Artist Credits for Recordings
On 01/30/2012 01:43 AM, symphonick wrote: 2012/1/30 Frederic Da Vitoria davito...@gmail.com mailto:davito...@gmail.com I'd do the same, but I wouldn't vote No on an edit which included for example only the soloist if there is no ambiguity issue. Ok. BTW I just remembered the discussion about [unknown], so I updated http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSG2012/Recording/Credits again. Sounds good to me. A few thoughts: 1. (Looking at your examples) would it make sense to use (er, recommend) transliterated ACs (to match the release script)? 2. Can this proposal be expanded to also add CSG feat. artist style to /Style/Old_style_practices [1] ? 3. I'd like to add a Rationale (and/or History) section. For 2 and 3, I'll try to put something together before you go to rfv (but only if doing so won't hold up your proposal). Or if it makes more sense, I could work (slowly) on a more comprehensive /CSG_history page. Alex / awol_caller#6 [1] http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Old_style_practices ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC-348: Artist Credits for Recordings
2012/1/30, caller#6 meatbyproduct-musicbra...@yahoo.com: On 01/30/2012 01:43 AM, symphonick wrote: 2012/1/30 Frederic Da Vitoria davito...@gmail.com mailto:davito...@gmail.com I'd do the same, but I wouldn't vote No on an edit which included for example only the soloist if there is no ambiguity issue. Ok. BTW I just remembered the discussion about [unknown], so I updated http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSG2012/Recording/Credits again. Sounds good to me. A few thoughts: 1. (Looking at your examples) would it make sense to use (er, recommend) transliterated ACs (to match the release script)? 2. Can this proposal be expanded to also add CSG feat. artist style to /Style/Old_style_practices [1] ? 3. I'd like to add a Rationale (and/or History) section. For 2 and 3, I'll try to put something together before you go to rfv (but only if doing so won't hold up your proposal). Or if it makes more sense, I could work (slowly) on a more comprehensive /CSG_history page. I think putting the history close to the related page is more efficient: the history pages will be shorter, more focused, and they will act as a reminder. While if we use a giant history page, it will probably grow so large that nobody will want to read it and we will forget to update it. -- Frederic Da Vitoria (davitof) Membre de l'April - « promouvoir et défendre le logiciel libre » - http://www.april.org ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC-348: Artist Credits for Recordings
On 01/29/2012 01:48 PM, symphonick wrote: I have updated http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Recording/Artist (the examples exist in MB, but I'm not adding URLs as long as recording artist = composer) I’m confused…is this RFC for that page or for the originally linked http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSG2012/Recording/Credits Thanks! —Alex Mauer “hawke” ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC-348: Artist Credits for Recordings
2012/1/30 Frederic Da Vitoria davito...@gmail.com 2012/1/30, caller#6 meatbyproduct-musicbra...@yahoo.com: On 01/30/2012 01:43 AM, symphonick wrote: 2012/1/30 Frederic Da Vitoria davito...@gmail.com mailto:davito...@gmail.com I'd do the same, but I wouldn't vote No on an edit which included for example only the soloist if there is no ambiguity issue. Ok. BTW I just remembered the discussion about [unknown], so I updated http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSG2012/Recording/Credits again. Sounds good to me. A few thoughts: 1. (Looking at your examples) would it make sense to use (er, recommend) transliterated ACs (to match the release script)? 2. Can this proposal be expanded to also add CSG feat. artist style to /Style/Old_style_practices [1] ? 3. I'd like to add a Rationale (and/or History) section. For 2 and 3, I'll try to put something together before you go to rfv (but only if doing so won't hold up your proposal). Or if it makes more sense, I could work (slowly) on a more comprehensive /CSG_history page. I think putting the history close to the related page is more efficient: the history pages will be shorter, more focused, and they will act as a reminder. While if we use a giant history page, it will probably grow so large that nobody will want to read it and we will forget to update it. 2 3 sounds good (I agree about a shorter history section). 1. IMO it makes sense to follow the language of the relase - so maybe as printed? (which means I'll change to Zukerman). 2 issues: Can/should we enter credits with family name only (Bach, Menuhin etc), and what to do if different releases have different versions of the name? I think it's pretty unusual, but I suppose it could happen with Tjaijkovskij/Thcaikovsky. most common probably won't help if there are only 2 releases. /symphonick ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC-348: Artist Credits for Recordings
On 01/30/2012 11:45 AM, symphonick wrote: 1. IMO it makes sense to follow the language of the relase - so maybe as printed? (which means I'll change to Zukerman). +1, but I know some people object to “as printed” for whatever reason. 2 issues: Can/should we enter credits with family name only (Bach, Menuhin etc), IMO: No. Use the full name: 1. We don’t use only the family name anywhere else. 2. Artists with the same last name (Strauss, Bach, many others) and what to do if different releases have different versions of the name? I think it's pretty unusual, but I suppose it could happen with Tjaijkovskij/Thcaikovsky. most common probably won't help if IMO it’s best to standardize this one. Best would be to use the main artist name, soyou don’t have to type a different name variant every time. This can be best handled through proper localization once we have that support in MB. —Alex Mauer “hawke” ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC-348: Artist Credits for Recordings
They seem identical... I think has something to do with this... /symphonick 2012/1/30 Alex Mauer ha...@hawkesnest.net On 01/29/2012 01:48 PM, symphonick wrote: I have updated http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Recording/Artist (the examples exist in MB, but I'm not adding URLs as long as recording artist = composer) I’m confused…is this RFC for that page or for the originally linked http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSG2012/Recording/Credits Thanks! —Alex Mauer “hawke” ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC-348: Artist Credits for Recordings
On 01/30/2012 12:27 PM, symphonick wrote: They seem identical... I think has something to do with this... http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Recording/Artist http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSG2012/Recording/Artist They are completely different text and completely different URLS…they seem to be different proposals, no? ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC-348: Artist Credits for Recordings
2012/1/30 Alex Mauer ha...@hawkesnest.net On 01/30/2012 11:45 AM, symphonick wrote: 1. IMO it makes sense to follow the language of the relase - so maybe as printed? (which means I'll change to Zukerman). +1, but I know some people object to “as printed” for whatever reason. 2 issues: Can/should we enter credits with family name only (Bach, Menuhin etc), IMO: No. Use the full name: 1. We don’t use only the family name anywhere else. 2. Artists with the same last name (Strauss, Bach, many others) and what to do if different releases have different versions of the name? I think it's pretty unusual, but I suppose it could happen with Tjaijkovskij/Thcaikovsky. most common probably won't help if IMO it’s best to standardize this one. Best would be to use the main artist name, soyou don’t have to type a different name variant every time. This can be best handled through proper localization once we have that support in MB. —Alex Mauer “hawke” So match script more than match language? /symphonick ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC-348: Artist Credits for Recordings
sorry, it's CSG2012: http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSG2012/Recording/Artist 2012/1/30 Alex Mauer ha...@hawkesnest.net On 01/30/2012 12:27 PM, symphonick wrote: They seem identical... I think has something to do with this... http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Recording/Artist http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSG2012/Recording/Artist They are completely different text and completely different URLS…they seem to be different proposals, no? ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style -- /symphonick ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC-348: Artist Credits for Recordings
On 01/30/2012 12:37 PM, symphonick wrote: So match script more than match language? Yes, I guess that describes it pretty well. Though I wouldn’t object to “no change at all” (i.e. Пётр Ильич Чайковский instead of any Latin variant of Tchaikovsky). Though that does make it hard to read for those who don’t read non-latin scripts. —Alex Mauer “hawke” ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC-348: Artist Credits for Recordings
I'm having some trouble seeing a good use case for the composer disambiguation; in most cases, I add all relevant relationships to a recording shortly after creating the recording - and if ARs are added from the recording page itself (which is not difficult when adding a new recording), there is no benefit. I could see a benefit when making a new work and linking to existing instances of the work, BUT the recordings that need to be associated to the work won't have the disambiguating information. Recordings that have the composer disambiguation won't need to be linked to additional ARs, right? Who would add the composer disambiguation but leave the recording in an unfinished state? Wouldn't they either complete the ARs+disambiguation or leave both undone? What am I missing? Thanks, David On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 11:52 AM, Alex Mauer ha...@hawkesnest.net wrote: On 01/30/2012 12:37 PM, symphonick wrote: So match script more than match language? Yes, I guess that describes it pretty well. Though I wouldn’t object to “no change at all” (i.e. Пётр Ильич Чайковский instead of any Latin variant of Tchaikovsky). Though that does make it hard to read for those who don’t read non-latin scripts. —Alex Mauer “hawke” ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC-348: Artist Credits for Recordings
2012/1/30 David Hilton quercus.aeter...@gmail.com I'm having some trouble seeing a good use case for the composer disambiguation; in most cases, I add all relevant relationships to a recording shortly after creating the recording - and if ARs are added from the recording page itself (which is not difficult when adding a new recording), there is no benefit. I could see a benefit when making a new work and linking to existing instances of the work, BUT the recordings that need to be associated to the work won't have the disambiguating information. Recordings that have the composer disambiguation won't need to be linked to additional ARs, right? Who would add the composer disambiguation but leave the recording in an unfinished state? Wouldn't they either complete the ARs+disambiguation or leave both undone? What am I missing? Thanks, David We should always enter ARs. Composer disambiguation should only be used if the same performers have recorded a work by a different composer with a similar title, let's say we have 2 works just titled sonatina, no opus. Both recorded by Glenn Gould: Sonatina by Glenn Gould (Chopin) Sonatina by Glenn Gould (Schubert) But usually there will be (different) catalogue numbers involved so you won't need this. /symphonick On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 11:52 AM, Alex Mauer ha...@hawkesnest.net wrote: On 01/30/2012 12:37 PM, symphonick wrote: So match script more than match language? Yes, I guess that describes it pretty well. Though I wouldn’t object to “no change at all” (i.e. Пётр Ильич Чайковский instead of any Latin variant of Tchaikovsky). Though that does make it hard to read for those who don’t read non-latin scripts. —Alex Mauer “hawke” ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style -- /symphonick ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC-348: Artist Credits for Recordings
On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 08:55, symphonick symphon...@gmail.com wrote: http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSG2012/Recording/Credits Thought this might be a good place to start the CSG RFCs, didn't hear anything negative about this in the discussion thread. (track artists will be in another RFC later). I guess I'm just dense today. Can someone please explain the justification for excluding the composer from the AC? While the composer may not have had a direct hand in the recording, they had a rather critical indirect hand in it. Usually the qualification for an AC is .. a prominent credit on the cover/spine/back. About the closest I can find in the style guides after a quick search is Featured artists, which says That is, they are given credit on the cover or track listing of a release by another artist in a manner which elevates their contribution above normal liner note credits. Which to me, says a composer would qualify. That said, recording ACs are really murky for me. Credits for the same recording can change from release to release. Is that what this discussion is about? -- -:-:- David K. Gasaway -:-:- Email: d...@gasaway.org ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
[mb-style] RFC-348: Artist Credits for Recordings
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSG2012/Recording/Credits Thought this might be a good place to start the CSG RFCs, didn't hear anything negative about this in the discussion thread. (track artists will be in another RFC later). This RFC will expire on Sunday, February 5th. /symphonick ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC-348: Artist Credits for Recordings
the old CSG performer disambiguation (add performers to the title of the release and releasegroup) does not apply anymore. this is about recording AC so release or releasegrp is irrelevant. -- lorenz pressler PGP 0x92E9551A ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC-348: Artist Credits for Recordings
2012/1/29 lorenz pressler l...@gmx.at the old CSG performer disambiguation (add performers to the title of the release and releasegroup) does not apply anymore. this is about recording AC so release or releasegrp is irrelevant. Yeah, maybe it is superfluous here. It will be in the release/RG page too. /symphonick ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC-348: Artist Credits for Recordings
symphonick symphon...@gmail.com writes: http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSG2012/Recording/Credits Thought this might be a good place to start the CSG RFCs, didn't hear anything negative about this in the discussion thread. (track artists will be in another RFC later). This RFC will expire on Sunday, February 5th. I'm not overly keen on this, but fine. However, this needs to have some more specific examples to be useful. For example, who should be credited for the following? (1) A symphony movement. (Orchestra and conductor?) (2) A violin sonata (Violinist and Pianist) (3) An opera chorus (4) An opera aria Until an answer can be found (and written down!) for this, I'm not at all happy. After that, I'll go skipping in the fields surrounded by butterflies and the world will be wonderful. Rupert pgp6xtB0k4YFW.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC-348: Artist Credits for Recordings
2012/1/29 Rupert Swarbrick rswarbr...@gmail.com symphonick symphon...@gmail.com writes: http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSG2012/Recording/Credits Thought this might be a good place to start the CSG RFCs, didn't hear anything negative about this in the discussion thread. (track artists will be in another RFC later). This RFC will expire on Sunday, February 5th. I'm not overly keen on this, but fine. However, this needs to have some more specific examples to be useful. For example, who should be credited for the following? (1) A symphony movement. (Orchestra and conductor?) (2) A violin sonata (Violinist and Pianist) (3) An opera chorus (4) An opera aria Until an answer can be found (and written down!) for this, I'm not at all happy. After that, I'll go skipping in the fields surrounded by butterflies and the world will be wonderful. Rupert Hmm, needs better explanation, obviously. To clarify: this is about recording to performer ARs, and we want them all. All performers should be linked to the appropriate recordings. /symphonick ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC-348: Artist Credits for Recordings
sorry - I'm mixing things up here. disregard the AR stuff. 2012/1/29 symphonick symphon...@gmail.com 2012/1/29 Rupert Swarbrick rswarbr...@gmail.com symphonick symphon...@gmail.com writes: http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSG2012/Recording/Credits Thought this might be a good place to start the CSG RFCs, didn't hear anything negative about this in the discussion thread. (track artists will be in another RFC later). This RFC will expire on Sunday, February 5th. I'm not overly keen on this, but fine. However, this needs to have some more specific examples to be useful. For example, who should be credited for the following? (1) A symphony movement. (Orchestra and conductor?) (2) A violin sonata (Violinist and Pianist) (3) An opera chorus (4) An opera aria Until an answer can be found (and written down!) for this, I'm not at all happy. After that, I'll go skipping in the fields surrounded by butterflies and the world will be wonderful. Rupert Hmm, needs better explanation, obviously. To clarify: this is about recording to performer ARs, and we want them all. All performers should be linked to the appropriate recordings. /symphonick -- /symphonick ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC-348: Artist Credits for Recordings
I have updated http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Recording/Artist (the examples exist in MB, but I'm not adding URLs as long as recording artist = composer) /symphonick 2012/1/29 symphonick symphon...@gmail.com sorry - I'm mixing things up here. disregard the AR stuff. 2012/1/29 symphonick symphon...@gmail.com 2012/1/29 Rupert Swarbrick rswarbr...@gmail.com symphonick symphon...@gmail.com writes: http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSG2012/Recording/Credits Thought this might be a good place to start the CSG RFCs, didn't hear anything negative about this in the discussion thread. (track artists will be in another RFC later). This RFC will expire on Sunday, February 5th. I'm not overly keen on this, but fine. However, this needs to have some more specific examples to be useful. For example, who should be credited for the following? (1) A symphony movement. (Orchestra and conductor?) (2) A violin sonata (Violinist and Pianist) (3) An opera chorus (4) An opera aria Until an answer can be found (and written down!) for this, I'm not at all happy. After that, I'll go skipping in the fields surrounded by butterflies and the world will be wonderful. Rupert Hmm, needs better explanation, obviously. To clarify: this is about recording to performer ARs, and we want them all. All performers should be linked to the appropriate recordings. /symphonick -- /symphonick ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC-348: Artist Credits for Recordings
2012/1/29 Rupert Swarbrick rswarbr...@gmail.com symphonick symphon...@gmail.com writes: http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSG2012/Recording/Credits Thought this might be a good place to start the CSG RFCs, didn't hear anything negative about this in the discussion thread. (track artists will be in another RFC later). This RFC will expire on Sunday, February 5th. I'm not overly keen on this, but fine. However, this needs to have some more specific examples to be useful. For example, who should be credited for the following? (1) A symphony movement. (Orchestra and conductor?) (2) A violin sonata (Violinist and Pianist) (3) An opera chorus (4) An opera aria Until an answer can be found (and written down!) for this, I'm not at all happy. After that, I'll go skipping in the fields surrounded by butterflies and the world will be wonderful. I believe the answer is: whoever is useful for characterising (is this the correct word?) the recording, which means usually (1) both (2) both (3) probably the main opera performers (4) it depends on whether the aria is extracted from a full recording or if it is part of a recital. But this is a general rule. For example, it could be acceptable to enter only the violinist in a violin concerto, when it is known that no other recording from that violinist exists. -- Frederic Da Vitoria (davitof) Membre de l'April - « promouvoir et défendre le logiciel libre » - http://www.april.org ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFC-348: Artist Credits for Recordings
2012/1/29 Frederic Da Vitoria davito...@gmail.com 2012/1/29 Rupert Swarbrick rswarbr...@gmail.com symphonick symphon...@gmail.com writes: http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSG2012/Recording/Credits Thought this might be a good place to start the CSG RFCs, didn't hear anything negative about this in the discussion thread. (track artists will be in another RFC later). This RFC will expire on Sunday, February 5th. I'm not overly keen on this, but fine. However, this needs to have some more specific examples to be useful. For example, who should be credited for the following? (1) A symphony movement. (Orchestra and conductor?) (2) A violin sonata (Violinist and Pianist) (3) An opera chorus (4) An opera aria Until an answer can be found (and written down!) for this, I'm not at all happy. After that, I'll go skipping in the fields surrounded by butterflies and the world will be wonderful. I believe the answer is: whoever is useful for characterising (is this the correct word?) the recording, which means usually (1) both (2) both (3) probably the main opera performers (4) it depends on whether the aria is extracted from a full recording or if it is part of a recital. But this is a general rule. For example, it could be acceptable to enter only the violinist in a violin concerto, when it is known that no other recording from that violinist exists. -- Frederic Da Vitoria (davitof) I added examples of all those (just no URLs yet). 4) I'd put in soloist / conductor / orchestra regardless /symphonick ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
