Re: [mb-style] RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change
Yes. PHILIP, THAT’S GREAT, THAT WOULD RULE THE WORLD’S DOMINATION ! Nikki, Réo, do you believe that’s agreed ? Tristan. Philip Jägenstedt wrote On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 2:13 PM, Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren lt;reosarevok@gt; wrote: On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 3:10 PM, Philip Jägenstedt lt;philip@gt; wrote: On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 2:53 PM, Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren lt;reosarevok@gt; wrote: On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 3:44 PM, jesus2099 lt;hta3s836gzacohe@gt; wrote: Here is my re-phrase as now RFV-333 can be bypassed (according to Réo) : I speak of this RFV-346 compromise. :) Which is a compromise between my always space and your never space. The problem with your more recent version is that it’s less of a compromise as it systematically chooses the never space on a big amount of entities (never space on recordings, release-groups and works), letting the as is style on tracklists only. This is why I prefer the compromise version (RFV-346). Or, to the limit, your new version with the following change could be reasonably acceptable too : from « Never space on recordings, release-groups and works. » to « Never space on recordings, release-groups and works IF AND ONLY WHEN THERE IS INCONSISTENCY BETWEEN SEVERAL RELEASES/EDITIONS/VERSIONS/ETC. » This sounds reasonable to me, and easy to apply too (follow cover unless covers disagree). I could live with that as well. \o/ Does this mean we have an agreement? \o/ Let's see. I've updated http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:Foolip/Capitalization_Standard_Vietnamese#Punctuation to say: If the cover includes space before punctuation (like in French) this should be preserved. If the punctuation style is inconsistent between releases, do not include space before punctuation in recording, release group or work titles. Tristan, is that phrasing acceptable to you? -- Philip Jägenstedt ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@.musicbrainz http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style - mb : http://musicbrainz.org/user/jesus2099 mb userscripts : http://userscripts.org/users/31010/scripts black hole : *@jetable.org (stuff sent there won’t reach anyone) crap® : jesus2099, Ti, Tristan, patate12, saucisson7, so6on, so6on7, TRISTANVS, M. PATATE, j2-, J2♥, Trí Tân, 鳥, トリ29, TD., iCAT, … -- View this message in context: http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-346-Style-Language-Vietnamese-Punctuation-change-tp4226419p4634155.html Sent from the MusicBrainz - Style mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change
On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 11:25 AM, jesus2099 hta3s836gzac...@jetable.org wrote: Yes. PHILIP, THAT’S GREAT, THAT WOULD RULE THE WORLD’S DOMINATION ! Nikki, Réo, do you believe that’s agreed ? Sounds like it! :) Tristan. Philip Jägenstedt wrote On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 2:13 PM, Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren lt;reosarevok@gt; wrote: On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 3:10 PM, Philip Jägenstedt lt;philip@gt; wrote: On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 2:53 PM, Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren lt;reosarevok@gt; wrote: On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 3:44 PM, jesus2099 lt;hta3s836gzacohe@gt; wrote: Here is my re-phrase as now RFV-333 can be bypassed (according to Réo) : I speak of this RFV-346 compromise. :) Which is a compromise between my always space and your never space. The problem with your more recent version is that it’s less of a compromise as it systematically chooses the never space on a big amount of entities (never space on recordings, release-groups and works), letting the as is style on tracklists only. This is why I prefer the compromise version (RFV-346). Or, to the limit, your new version with the following change could be reasonably acceptable too : from « Never space on recordings, release-groups and works. » to « Never space on recordings, release-groups and works IF AND ONLY WHEN THERE IS INCONSISTENCY BETWEEN SEVERAL RELEASES/EDITIONS/VERSIONS/ETC. » This sounds reasonable to me, and easy to apply too (follow cover unless covers disagree). I could live with that as well. \o/ Does this mean we have an agreement? \o/ Let's see. I've updated http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:Foolip/Capitalization_Standard_Vietnamese#Punctuation to say: If the cover includes space before punctuation (like in French) this should be preserved. If the punctuation style is inconsistent between releases, do not include space before punctuation in recording, release group or work titles. Tristan, is that phrasing acceptable to you? -- Philip Jägenstedt ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@.musicbrainz http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style - mb : http://musicbrainz.org/user/jesus2099 mb userscripts : http://userscripts.org/users/31010/scripts black hole : *@jetable.org (stuff sent there won’t reach anyone) crap® : jesus2099, Ti, Tristan, patate12, saucisson7, so6on, so6on7, TRISTANVS, M. PATATE, j2-, J2♥, Trí Tân, 鳥, トリ29, TD., iCAT, … -- View this message in context: http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-346-Style-Language-Vietnamese-Punctuation-change-tp4226419p4634155.html Sent from the MusicBrainz - Style mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style -- Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change
On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren reosare...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 11:25 AM, jesus2099 hta3s836gzac...@jetable.org wrote: Yes. PHILIP, THAT’S GREAT, THAT WOULD RULE THE WORLD’S DOMINATION ! Nikki, Réo, do you believe that’s agreed ? Sounds like it! :) Since nobody else really seems to care (we've seen it during the years this is been discussed) I'll count your agreement as enough of a consensus. http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style%2FLanguage%2FVietnamese Tristan. Philip Jägenstedt wrote On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 2:13 PM, Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren lt;reosarevok@gt; wrote: On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 3:10 PM, Philip Jägenstedt lt;philip@gt; wrote: On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 2:53 PM, Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren lt;reosarevok@gt; wrote: On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 3:44 PM, jesus2099 lt;hta3s836gzacohe@gt; wrote: Here is my re-phrase as now RFV-333 can be bypassed (according to Réo) : I speak of this RFV-346 compromise. :) Which is a compromise between my always space and your never space. The problem with your more recent version is that it’s less of a compromise as it systematically chooses the never space on a big amount of entities (never space on recordings, release-groups and works), letting the as is style on tracklists only. This is why I prefer the compromise version (RFV-346). Or, to the limit, your new version with the following change could be reasonably acceptable too : from « Never space on recordings, release-groups and works. » to « Never space on recordings, release-groups and works IF AND ONLY WHEN THERE IS INCONSISTENCY BETWEEN SEVERAL RELEASES/EDITIONS/VERSIONS/ETC. » This sounds reasonable to me, and easy to apply too (follow cover unless covers disagree). I could live with that as well. \o/ Does this mean we have an agreement? \o/ Let's see. I've updated http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:Foolip/Capitalization_Standard_Vietnamese#Punctuation to say: If the cover includes space before punctuation (like in French) this should be preserved. If the punctuation style is inconsistent between releases, do not include space before punctuation in recording, release group or work titles. Tristan, is that phrasing acceptable to you? -- Philip Jägenstedt ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@.musicbrainz http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style - mb : http://musicbrainz.org/user/jesus2099 mb userscripts : http://userscripts.org/users/31010/scripts black hole : *@jetable.org (stuff sent there won’t reach anyone) crap® : jesus2099, Ti, Tristan, patate12, saucisson7, so6on, so6on7, TRISTANVS, M. PATATE, j2-, J2♥, Trí Tân, 鳥, トリ29, TD., iCAT, … -- View this message in context: http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-346-Style-Language-Vietnamese-Punctuation-change-tp4226419p4634155.html Sent from the MusicBrainz - Style mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style -- Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren -- Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change
On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 10:48 AM, Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren reosare...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren reosare...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 11:25 AM, jesus2099 hta3s836gzac...@jetable.org wrote: Yes. PHILIP, THAT’S GREAT, THAT WOULD RULE THE WORLD’S DOMINATION ! Nikki, Réo, do you believe that’s agreed ? Sounds like it! :) Since nobody else really seems to care (we've seen it during the years this is been discussed) I'll count your agreement as enough of a consensus. http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style%2FLanguage%2FVietnamese Congratulations! ^^ Tristan. Philip Jägenstedt wrote On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 2:13 PM, Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren lt;reosarevok@gt; wrote: On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 3:10 PM, Philip Jägenstedt lt;philip@gt; wrote: On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 2:53 PM, Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren lt;reosarevok@gt; wrote: On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 3:44 PM, jesus2099 lt;hta3s836gzacohe@gt; wrote: Here is my re-phrase as now RFV-333 can be bypassed (according to Réo) : I speak of this RFV-346 compromise. :) Which is a compromise between my always space and your never space. The problem with your more recent version is that it’s less of a compromise as it systematically chooses the never space on a big amount of entities (never space on recordings, release-groups and works), letting the as is style on tracklists only. This is why I prefer the compromise version (RFV-346). Or, to the limit, your new version with the following change could be reasonably acceptable too : from « Never space on recordings, release-groups and works. » to « Never space on recordings, release-groups and works IF AND ONLY WHEN THERE IS INCONSISTENCY BETWEEN SEVERAL RELEASES/EDITIONS/VERSIONS/ETC. » This sounds reasonable to me, and easy to apply too (follow cover unless covers disagree). I could live with that as well. \o/ Does this mean we have an agreement? \o/ Let's see. I've updated http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:Foolip/Capitalization_Standard_Vietnamese#Punctuation to say: If the cover includes space before punctuation (like in French) this should be preserved. If the punctuation style is inconsistent between releases, do not include space before punctuation in recording, release group or work titles. Tristan, is that phrasing acceptable to you? -- Philip Jägenstedt ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@.musicbrainz http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style - mb : http://musicbrainz.org/user/jesus2099 mb userscripts : http://userscripts.org/users/31010/scripts black hole : *@jetable.org (stuff sent there won’t reach anyone) crap® : jesus2099, Ti, Tristan, patate12, saucisson7, so6on, so6on7, TRISTANVS, M. PATATE, j2-, J2♥, Trí Tân, 鳥, トリ29, TD., iCAT, … -- View this message in context: http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-346-Style-Language-Vietnamese-Punctuation-change-tp4226419p4634155.html Sent from the MusicBrainz - Style mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style -- Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren -- Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change
Thanks Chris the Swiss ! WOW MY GOD THANK YOU VERY MUCHA MUCHO LOVE TO RÉO’S-AT-WORK, NIKKI AND… FOOLIP ! JESUS2099♥ - mb : http://musicbrainz.org/user/jesus2099 mb userscripts : http://userscripts.org/users/31010/scripts black hole : *@jetable.org (stuff sent there won’t reach anyone) crap® : jesus2099, Ti, Tristan, patate12, saucisson7, so6on, so6on7, TRISTANVS, M. PATATE, j2-, J2♥, Trí Tân, 鳥, トリ29, TD., iCAT, … -- View this message in context: http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-346-Style-Language-Vietnamese-Punctuation-change-tp4226419p4634193.html Sent from the MusicBrainz - Style mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change
On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 2:53 PM, Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren reosare...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 3:44 PM, jesus2099 hta3s836gzac...@jetable.org wrote: Here is my re-phrase as now RFV-333 can be bypassed (according to Réo) : I speak of this RFV-346 compromise. :) Which is a compromise between my always space and your never space. The problem with your more recent version is that it’s less of a compromise as it systematically chooses the never space on a big amount of entities (never space on recordings, release-groups and works), letting the as is style on tracklists only. This is why I prefer the compromise version (RFV-346). Or, to the limit, your new version with the following change could be reasonably acceptable too : from « Never space on recordings, release-groups and works. » to « Never space on recordings, release-groups and works IF AND ONLY WHEN THERE IS INCONSISTENCY BETWEEN SEVERAL RELEASES/EDITIONS/VERSIONS/ETC. » This sounds reasonable to me, and easy to apply too (follow cover unless covers disagree). I could live with that as well. -- Philip Jägenstedt ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change
On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 3:10 PM, Philip Jägenstedt phi...@foolip.org wrote: On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 2:53 PM, Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren reosare...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 3:44 PM, jesus2099 hta3s836gzac...@jetable.org wrote: Here is my re-phrase as now RFV-333 can be bypassed (according to Réo) : I speak of this RFV-346 compromise. :) Which is a compromise between my always space and your never space. The problem with your more recent version is that it’s less of a compromise as it systematically chooses the never space on a big amount of entities (never space on recordings, release-groups and works), letting the as is style on tracklists only. This is why I prefer the compromise version (RFV-346). Or, to the limit, your new version with the following change could be reasonably acceptable too : from « Never space on recordings, release-groups and works. » to « Never space on recordings, release-groups and works IF AND ONLY WHEN THERE IS INCONSISTENCY BETWEEN SEVERAL RELEASES/EDITIONS/VERSIONS/ETC. » This sounds reasonable to me, and easy to apply too (follow cover unless covers disagree). I could live with that as well. \o/ Does this mean we have an agreement? \o/ -- Philip Jägenstedt ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style -- Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change
On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 2:13 PM, Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren reosare...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 3:10 PM, Philip Jägenstedt phi...@foolip.org wrote: On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 2:53 PM, Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren reosare...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 3:44 PM, jesus2099 hta3s836gzac...@jetable.org wrote: Here is my re-phrase as now RFV-333 can be bypassed (according to Réo) : I speak of this RFV-346 compromise. :) Which is a compromise between my always space and your never space. The problem with your more recent version is that it’s less of a compromise as it systematically chooses the never space on a big amount of entities (never space on recordings, release-groups and works), letting the as is style on tracklists only. This is why I prefer the compromise version (RFV-346). Or, to the limit, your new version with the following change could be reasonably acceptable too : from « Never space on recordings, release-groups and works. » to « Never space on recordings, release-groups and works IF AND ONLY WHEN THERE IS INCONSISTENCY BETWEEN SEVERAL RELEASES/EDITIONS/VERSIONS/ETC. » This sounds reasonable to me, and easy to apply too (follow cover unless covers disagree). I could live with that as well. \o/ Does this mean we have an agreement? \o/ Let's see. I've updated http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:Foolip/Capitalization_Standard_Vietnamese#Punctuation to say: If the cover includes space before punctuation (like in French) this should be preserved. If the punctuation style is inconsistent between releases, do not include space before punctuation in recording, release group or work titles. Tristan, is that phrasing acceptable to you? -- Philip Jägenstedt ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change
I speak of course of this RFV-346 compromise. :) Which is a compromise between my always space and your never space. The problem with your more recent version (which adds never space on recordings, release-groups and works and which is then less of a compromise) is the conflict with RFV-333. RFV-333. http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFV-333-Unify-track-recording-guidelines-tp3722980p3750016.html We could set your version later, when RFV-333 is abandoned for instance. Or can we have two conflicting RFV ? If so, I would prefer a change from « Never space on recordings, release-groups and works. » to « Never space on recordings, release-groups and works WHEN THERE IS INCONSISTENCY. » Tristan. ;) Philip Jägenstedt wrote On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 9:58 AM, jesus2099 lt;hta3s836gzacohe@gt; wrote: UP http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-346-Style-Language-Vietnamese-Punctuation-change-tp4226419p4557976.html So, Nikki, Nicolás, could this RFV be settled down and pass so we can eventually apply this compromise ? (3) Which compromise is it you want to apply? You didn't approve of the one I suggested and I'm not aware of any other. -- Philip Jägenstedt ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@.musicbrainz http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style - mb : http://musicbrainz.org/user/jesus2099 mb userscripts : http://userscripts.org/users/31010/scripts black hole : *@jetable.org (stuff sent there won’t reach anyone) crap® : jesus2099, Ti, Tristan, patate12, saucisson7, so6on, so6on7, TRISTANVS, M. PATATE, j2-, J2♥, Trí Tân, 鳥, トリ29, TD., iCAT, … -- View this message in context: http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-346-Style-Language-Vietnamese-Punctuation-change-tp4226419p4633911.html Sent from the Musicbrainz - Style mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change
On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 10:21 AM, jesus2099 hta3s836gzac...@jetable.org wrote: I speak of course of this RFV-346 compromise. :) Which is a compromise between my always space and your never space. The problem with your more recent version (which adds never space on recordings, release-groups and works and which is then less of a compromise) is the conflict with RFV-333. RFV-333 was a one-off; its intention was to unify the guidelines *in that moment*, not to prevent them from ever being different (for example, guidelines for live recordings are already different, since the recordings are never supposed to have (live) in their names. RFV-333. http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFV-333-Unify-track-recording-guidelines-tp3722980p3750016.html We could set your version later, when RFV-333 is abandoned for instance. Or can we have two conflicting RFV ? If so, I would prefer a change from « Never space on recordings, release-groups and works. » to « Never space on recordings, release-groups and works WHEN THERE IS INCONSISTENCY. » Tristan. ;) Philip Jägenstedt wrote On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 9:58 AM, jesus2099 lt;hta3s836gzacohe@gt; wrote: UP http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-346-Style-Language-Vietnamese-Punctuation-change-tp4226419p4557976.html So, Nikki, Nicolás, could this RFV be settled down and pass so we can eventually apply this compromise ? (3) Which compromise is it you want to apply? You didn't approve of the one I suggested and I'm not aware of any other. -- Philip Jägenstedt ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@.musicbrainz http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style - mb : http://musicbrainz.org/user/jesus2099 mb userscripts : http://userscripts.org/users/31010/scripts black hole : *@jetable.org (stuff sent there won’t reach anyone) crap® : jesus2099, Ti, Tristan, patate12, saucisson7, so6on, so6on7, TRISTANVS, M. PATATE, j2-, J2♥, Trí Tân, 鳥, トリ29, TD., iCAT, … -- View this message in context: http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-346-Style-Language-Vietnamese-Punctuation-change-tp4226419p4633911.html Sent from the Musicbrainz - Style mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style -- Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change
Here is my re-phrase as now RFV-333 can be bypassed (according to Réo) : I speak of this RFV-346 compromise. :) Which is a compromise between my always space and your never space. The problem with your more recent version is that it’s less of a compromise as it systematically chooses the never space on a big amount of entities (never space on recordings, release-groups and works), letting the as is style on tracklists only. This is why I prefer the compromise version (RFV-346). Or, to the limit, your new version with the following change could be reasonably acceptable too : from « Never space on recordings, release-groups and works. » to « Never space on recordings, release-groups and works IF AND ONLY WHEN THERE IS INCONSISTENCY BETWEEN SEVERAL RELEASES/EDITIONS/VERSIONS/ETC. » Tristan. ;) Philip Jägenstedt wrote On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 9:58 AM, jesus2099 lt;hta3s836gzacohe@gt; wrote: UP http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-346-Style-Language-Vietnamese-Punctuation-change-tp4226419p4557976.html So, Nikki, Nicolás, could this RFV be settled down and pass so we can eventually apply this compromise ? (3) Which compromise is it you want to apply? You didn't approve of the one I suggested and I'm not aware of any other. -- Philip Jägenstedt ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@.musicbrainz http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style - mb : http://musicbrainz.org/user/jesus2099 mb userscripts : http://userscripts.org/users/31010/scripts black hole : *@jetable.org (stuff sent there won’t reach anyone) crap® : jesus2099, Ti, Tristan, patate12, saucisson7, so6on, so6on7, TRISTANVS, M. PATATE, j2-, J2♥, Trí Tân, 鳥, トリ29, TD., iCAT, … -- View this message in context: http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-346-Style-Language-Vietnamese-Punctuation-change-tp4226419p4633926.html Sent from the Musicbrainz - Style mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change
On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 3:44 PM, jesus2099 hta3s836gzac...@jetable.org wrote: Here is my re-phrase as now RFV-333 can be bypassed (according to Réo) : I speak of this RFV-346 compromise. :) Which is a compromise between my always space and your never space. The problem with your more recent version is that it’s less of a compromise as it systematically chooses the never space on a big amount of entities (never space on recordings, release-groups and works), letting the as is style on tracklists only. This is why I prefer the compromise version (RFV-346). Or, to the limit, your new version with the following change could be reasonably acceptable too : from « Never space on recordings, release-groups and works. » to « Never space on recordings, release-groups and works IF AND ONLY WHEN THERE IS INCONSISTENCY BETWEEN SEVERAL RELEASES/EDITIONS/VERSIONS/ETC. » This sounds reasonable to me, and easy to apply too (follow cover unless covers disagree). Tristan. ;) Philip Jägenstedt wrote On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 9:58 AM, jesus2099 lt;hta3s836gzacohe@gt; wrote: UP http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-346-Style-Language-Vietnamese-Punctuation-change-tp4226419p4557976.html So, Nikki, Nicolás, could this RFV be settled down and pass so we can eventually apply this compromise ? (3) Which compromise is it you want to apply? You didn't approve of the one I suggested and I'm not aware of any other. -- Philip Jägenstedt ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@.musicbrainz http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style - mb : http://musicbrainz.org/user/jesus2099 mb userscripts : http://userscripts.org/users/31010/scripts black hole : *@jetable.org (stuff sent there won’t reach anyone) crap® : jesus2099, Ti, Tristan, patate12, saucisson7, so6on, so6on7, TRISTANVS, M. PATATE, j2-, J2♥, Trí Tân, 鳥, トリ29, TD., iCAT, … -- View this message in context: http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-346-Style-Language-Vietnamese-Punctuation-change-tp4226419p4633926.html Sent from the Musicbrainz - Style mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style -- Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change
UP http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-346-Style-Language-Vietnamese-Punctuation-change-tp4226419p4557976.html So, Nikki, Nicolás, could this RFV be settled down and pass so we can eventually apply this compromise ? (3) - mb : http://musicbrainz.org/user/jesus2099 mb userscripts : http://userscripts.org/users/31010/scripts black hole : *@jetable.org (stuff sent there won’t reach anyone) crap® : jesus2099, Ti, Tristan, patate12, saucisson7, so6on, so6on7, TRISTANVS, M. PATATE, j2-, J2♥, Trí Tân, 鳥, トリ29, TD., iCAT, … -- View this message in context: http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-346-Style-Language-Vietnamese-Punctuation-change-tp4226419p4631704.html Sent from the Musicbrainz - Style mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change
On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 9:58 AM, jesus2099 hta3s836gzac...@jetable.org wrote: UP http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-346-Style-Language-Vietnamese-Punctuation-change-tp4226419p4557976.html So, Nikki, Nicolás, could this RFV be settled down and pass so we can eventually apply this compromise ? (3) Which compromise is it you want to apply? You didn't approve of the one I suggested and I'm not aware of any other. -- Philip Jägenstedt ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change
From foolip http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-Capitalization-Standard-Vietnamese-track-release-titles-tp4596130.html Philip Jägenstedt wrote http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:Foolip/Capitalization_Standard_Vietnamese « Do not include space before punctuation in recording, release group or work titles. » I believe this would be the first guideline applying different rules to track and recording titles since RFC-333: Unify track/recording guidelines. -- Philip Jägenstedt I do not think we need to make an exception to RFC-333 (keep same recs=tracks). I do not agree with RFC-333 but they are contradicting. Why not applying the compromise on all entities the same way ? Keeping the oldest found form if multiple uses of works (rare), recs (almost never) and RG (never), instead of forcing an English style. We should apply the most simple RFV-346. Tristan. - mb : http://musicbrainz.org/user/jesus2099 mb userscripts : http://userscripts.org/users/31010/scripts black hole : *@jetable.org (stuff sent there won’t reach anyone) crap® : jesus2099, Ti, Tristan, patate12, saucisson7, so6on, so6on7, TRISTANVS, M. PATATE, j2-, J2♥, Trí Tân, 鳥, トリ29, TD., iCAT, … -- View this message in context: http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-346-Style-Language-Vietnamese-Punctuation-change-tp4226419p4597898.html Sent from the Musicbrainz - Style mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change
On Sun, Apr 29, 2012 at 02:00, jesus2099 hta3s836gzac...@jetable.org wrote: UP http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-346-Style-Language-Vietnamese-Punctuation-change-tp4226419p4557976.html So, Nikki, Nicolás, could this RFV be settled down and pass so we can eventually apply this compromise ? (2) If both of us find http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:Foolip/Capitalization_Standard_Vietnamese acceptable, can't we simply skip directly to RFC/RFV of that proposal? -- Philip Jägenstedt ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change
On Sun, Apr 29, 2012 at 1:12 PM, Philip Jägenstedt phi...@foolip.org wrote: On Sun, Apr 29, 2012 at 02:00, jesus2099 hta3s836gzac...@jetable.org wrote: UP http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-346-Style-Language-Vietnamese-Punctuation-change-tp4226419p4557976.html So, Nikki, Nicolás, could this RFV be settled down and pass so we can eventually apply this compromise ? (2) If both of us find http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:Foolip/Capitalization_Standard_Vietnamese acceptable, can't we simply skip directly to RFC/RFV of that proposal? If both of you do, you certainly can. -- Philip Jägenstedt ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style -- Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change
UP http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-346-Style-Language-Vietnamese-Punctuation-change-tp4226419p4557976.html So, Nikki, Nicolás, could this RFV be settled down and pass so we can eventually apply this compromise ? (2) - mb : http://musicbrainz.org/user/jesus2099 mb userscripts : http://userscripts.org/users/31010/scripts black hole : *@jetable.org (stuff sent there won’t reach anyone) crap® : jesus2099, Ti, Tristan, patate12, saucisson7, so6on, so6on7, TRISTANVS, M. PATATE, j2-, J2♥, Trí Tân, 鳥, トリ29, TD., iCAT, … -- View this message in context: http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-346-Style-Language-Vietnamese-Punctuation-change-tp4226419p4595508.html Sent from the Musicbrainz - Style mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change
Kuno, citing the *two* style leaders. http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-346-Style-Language-Vietnamese-Punctuation-change-tp4226419p4425267.html Nikki wrote There are also plenty of (much more common) things we don't standardise though and yet they're not seen as a big problem. I don't see any particular *need* to standardise this. It affects a tiny amount of data edited by a tiny number of people and neither style appears to be incorrect anyway. … *I think the best choice right now is a compromise, i.e. to allow both forms, which is effectively what this proposal is.* http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-346-Style-Language-Vietnamese-Punctuation-change-tp4226419p4435854.html Réo wrote I seriously think a clash so strong about such a minor issue by two editors who are not even native speakers of the language is quite absurd. … *The most obvious choice, seeing that there is a not negligible minority of uses of space before punctuation and that it doesn't seem to be seen as a wrong use, is to follow the cover.* So, Nikki, Nicolás, could this RFV be settled down and pass so we can eventually apply this compromise ? Clock is ticking… :) Tristan / jesus2099 - mb : http://musicbrainz.org/user/jesus2099 mb userscripts : http://userscripts.org/users/31010/scripts black hole : *@jetable.org (stuff sent there won’t reach anyone) crap® : jesus2099, Ti, Tristan, patate12, saucisson7, so6on, so6on7, TRISTANVS, M. PATATE, j2-, J2♥, Trí Tân, 鳥, トリ29, TD., iCAT, … -- View this message in context: http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-346-Style-Language-Vietnamese-Punctuation-change-tp4226419p4557976.html Sent from the Musicbrainz - Style mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change
On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 9:13 PM, Philip Jägenstedt phi...@foolip.org wrote: On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 15:35, Rupert Swarbrick rswarbr...@gmail.com wrote: jesus2099 Philip Jägenstedt wrote: ... lots. Guys, you have been discussing this for quite some time, frantically scoring points against each other and arguing that the other is not following a reputed source. You then both agreed that you should get input from a style leader. Nikki basically pointed out that this really doesn't matter to MusicBrainz: there are very few releases where the question makes any difference, and these have been de facto standardised. As such, your continuing discussion in this forum is off topic, as well as bitter and unpleasant. Maybe it's time to agree to disagree? Thank you for interrupting us. While this is the appropriate forum for RFC/RFV of style guidelines, I do apologize for the state of discourse. I have tried very hard to stay on topic and not do point-by-point replies for every detail I disagree with, but have not always succeeded. I believe that the references and studies I have documented will stand up to scrutiny by third parties and that the conclusion is clear. The RFV has gotten its V, so I will not reply further unless explicitly asked to do so by one of our style leaders. I seriously think a clash so strong about such a minor issue by two editors who are not even native speakers of the language is quite absurd. The most obvious choice, seeing that there is a not negligible minority of uses of space before punctuation and that it doesn't seem to be seen as a wrong use, is to follow the cover. As jesus said, for each one's own collection those can be converted into what each of you see as right. -- Philip Jägenstedt ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style -- Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change
As I said
Philip Jägenstedt wrote
MB should not substitute for linguists.
Even if you can gather a few vietnamese editors, we shouldn’t create
lang-rules that are not based on actual written official guidelines from
state reputed source (not some random forum guidelines or stuff like
that).
{…}
I already said I saw space before punct on a daily basis in real life (not
online if you want) Vietnam (south, if that has some importance to
distinguish) including governamental stuff painted over meters wide
panels.
« space before punct on a daily basis in real life » + « not some random
forum guidelines or stuff like that »
We shouldn't just reproduce some online guy choice.
Philip Jägenstedt wrote
1.
http://du-an-most.hanoilug.org/MostWiki/QuyUocChinhTa#D.2BHqU-u_c.2BAOI-u
This is from the Hanoi GNU/Linux Users Group. Judging by the
references at the bottom, it is very well researched and trustworthy.
GNU/Linux Users Group is not an official stuff. It's just like some wiki
rules.
The only related reference for this part is TCVN 6909:2001 (tiêu chuẩn Việt
Nam, tiêu chuẩn = standard indeed) chapter 5.1.6. Which is only a
punctuation list without a word on how we use them.
They mainly focus on avoiding really basics but often seen mistakes by
vietnamese people : forgetting spaces after ,. and between sentences.
Philip Jägenstedt wrote
2.
http://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Cẩm_nang_về_cách_biên_soạn#D.E1.BA.A5u_c.C3.A2u
When I last looked I couldn't find any official style of the
Vietnamese Wikipedia, but here it is. That the many editors of the
Vietnamese Wikipedia have collectively agreed on the issue is IMHO
strong support for our current guideline.
Same remark as gnu wiki on their officialness and no reference is given.
Some guys over there discussion do use space before !?
http://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thảo_luận_Wikipedia:Cẩm_nang_về_cách_biên_soạn
They mostly came from USA when vi.wikipedia started at least, where they
also use FunnyCaps
Philip Jägenstedt wrote
3. http://hocmarketing.net/soan-thao-van-ban-chuan-viet-nam/
This is from marketing training material. I think that it doesn't have
the weight of the two above sources, but it does show that marketing
people (not only geeks) have also thought about the issue and come to
the same conclusion.
Marketing now, please. The advertising people are low cultured idiot crooks
and liars, the plague of our societies.
And, like gnu, they focus on same very basics mistakes with ., as well as
incorrectly spacing brackets. In their bad examples they forget to speak
about !? etc.
Philip Jägenstedt wrote
We have actually already standardized it, but you are correct that we
cannot re-decide the issue by voting when only I and Tristan really
care.
The first RFC was passed by force, this should be revert.
Your detestable marketing method of stating over and over that the first RFC
was legitimate and hat I didn’t participate nor object it, could
unfortunately work.
Philip Jägenstedt wrote
The data we have is already in line with the guideline we have, with
only 1 exception found by my script:
Of course it is because as soon as the forced RFC passed you went through my
releases to rename them ← This is how I learnt that the RFC force-passed
actually, through a foolip edit in my collection.
-
mb : http://musicbrainz.org/user/jesus2099
mb userscripts : http://userscripts.org/users/31010/scripts
black hole : *@jetable.org (stuff sent there won’t reach anyone)
crap® : jesus2099, Ti, Tristan, patate12, saucisson7, so6on, so6on7, TRISTANVS,
M. PATATE, j2-, J2♥, Trí Tân, 鳥, トリ29, TD., iCAT, …
--
View this message in context:
http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-346-Style-Language-Vietnamese-Punctuation-change-tp4226419p4431559.html
Sent from the Musicbrainz - Style mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [mb-style] RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change
jesus2099 Philip Jägenstedt wrote: ... lots. Guys, you have been discussing this for quite some time, frantically scoring points against each other and arguing that the other is not following a reputed source. You then both agreed that you should get input from a style leader. Nikki basically pointed out that this really doesn't matter to MusicBrainz: there are very few releases where the question makes any difference, and these have been de facto standardised. As such, your continuing discussion in this forum is off topic, as well as bitter and unpleasant. Maybe it's time to agree to disagree? Rupert pgpXLpeEZRxpa.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change
But agreed with what ? I agree if agreeing means that I can revert my releases to what’s on the cover. I already agreed with Nikki. Tristan. - mb : http://musicbrainz.org/user/jesus2099 mb userscripts : http://userscripts.org/users/31010/scripts black hole : *@jetable.org (stuff sent there won’t reach anyone) crap® : jesus2099, Ti, Tristan, patate12, saucisson7, so6on, so6on7, TRISTANVS, M. PATATE, j2-, J2♥, Trí Tân, 鳥, トリ29, TD., iCAT, … -- View this message in context: http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-346-Style-Language-Vietnamese-Punctuation-change-tp4226419p4431793.html Sent from the Musicbrainz - Style mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change
On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 15:35, Rupert Swarbrick rswarbr...@gmail.com wrote: jesus2099 Philip Jägenstedt wrote: ... lots. Guys, you have been discussing this for quite some time, frantically scoring points against each other and arguing that the other is not following a reputed source. You then both agreed that you should get input from a style leader. Nikki basically pointed out that this really doesn't matter to MusicBrainz: there are very few releases where the question makes any difference, and these have been de facto standardised. As such, your continuing discussion in this forum is off topic, as well as bitter and unpleasant. Maybe it's time to agree to disagree? Thank you for interrupting us. While this is the appropriate forum for RFC/RFV of style guidelines, I do apologize for the state of discourse. I have tried very hard to stay on topic and not do point-by-point replies for every detail I disagree with, but have not always succeeded. I believe that the references and studies I have documented will stand up to scrutiny by third parties and that the conclusion is clear. The RFV has gotten its V, so I will not reply further unless explicitly asked to do so by one of our style leaders. -- Philip Jägenstedt ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change
Thanks nikki. I guess we wait that both Foolip and I should agree this statement. I want to emphasize that this statement is neither pro-foolip nor pro-jesus2099, it is neutral. I agree, Nikki. I accept. I already agreed to drop my expectations in my RFC, [back in january][2012-01-13]*. Thanks, :) Tristan. (*) BTW I now see that I didn’t really explained well this expectation drop. This post of mine didn’t really explain that I agreed to completely abandon my punctuation chapter (it was only visible in the RFC wiki page, for the people who chatted IRC and who already read it and could [compare before/after][51289]). Maybe that’s why Foolip then opposed straight away. [2012-01-13]: http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-346-Style-Language-Vietnamese-Punctuation-change-tp4226419p4292622.html [51289]: http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/?title=User:jesus2099/Style/Language/Vietnamesediff=prevoldid=51289 - mb : http://musicbrainz.org/user/jesus2099 mb userscripts : http://userscripts.org/users/31010/scripts black hole : *@jetable.org (stuff sent there won’t reach anyone) crap® : jesus2099, Ti, Tristan, patate12, saucisson7, so6on, so6on7, TRISTANVS, M. PATATE, j2-, J2♥, Trí Tân, 鳥, トリ29, TD., iCAT, … -- View this message in context: http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-346-Style-Language-Vietnamese-Punctuation-change-tp4226419p4427698.html Sent from the Musicbrainz - Style mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change
On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 18:06, Nikki aei...@gmail.com wrote: Philip Jägenstedt wrote: If deemed necessary, I can ask my wife (currently in Hanoi) to contact the ministry of education and ask what style is considered correct in higher education. It's possible that they don't know or care, of course. I leave it as an exercise to the reader to check what style they use on their website http://www.moet.gov.vn/. Although I suspect the answer is that they don't know or care, I would certainly be interested in knowing what they have to say about it, if she'd be willing to ask. Thanks for your feedback, Nikki, I've asked my wife to help me research this matter again. She does not think that the Ministry of Education would be able to help us determine offical-ness, since their mission is to teach Vietnamese, not regulate it. It is also not their mission to answer random questions from the public (my bad), so they're unlikely to escalate the issue to the required level to get a stamped official answer. However, she was able to find no less than 3 different style guides for Vietnamese, all explicitly requiring the no-spaces style: 1. http://du-an-most.hanoilug.org/MostWiki/QuyUocChinhTa#D.2BHqU-u_c.2BAOI-u This is from the Hanoi GNU/Linux Users Group. Judging by the references at the bottom, it is very well researched and trustworthy. 2. http://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Cẩm_nang_về_cách_biên_soạn#D.E1.BA.A5u_c.C3.A2u When I last looked I couldn't find any official style of the Vietnamese Wikipedia, but here it is. That the many editors of the Vietnamese Wikipedia have collectively agreed on the issue is IMHO strong support for our current guideline. 3. http://hocmarketing.net/soan-thao-van-ban-chuan-viet-nam/ This is from marketing training material. I think that it doesn't have the weight of the two above sources, but it does show that marketing people (not only geeks) have also thought about the issue and come to the same conclusion. (http://www.tug.org/TUGboat/tb29-1/tb91thanh-vntex.pdf was also mentioned in the original RFC/RFV cycle, but it merely notes that the case without a space before punctuation is dominant.) There are not enough people who care to come to a majority decision about which way to standardise it. We have actually already standardized it, but you are correct that we cannot re-decide the issue by voting when only I and Tristan really care. There are not enough people who care about the issue to maintain the data according to such a guideline anyway. Given the small amount of data it only really takes one person. I have a script that I wrote after the guideline was originally accepted that finds instances in need of attention. There is not enough data affected to make standardisation particularly useful right now. The data we have is already in line with the guideline we have, with only 1 exception found by my script: http://musicbrainz.org/release/0c7c63b8-d9dd-4713-ac69-33204f2b419d Therefore I think the best choice right now is a compromise, i.e. to allow both forms, which is effectively what this proposal is. If the authorities in Vietnam ever publish an official style (something which explicitly talks about how to write punctuation) or if we ever have a community of Vietnamese editors who care about which style should be used, then that would be a better time to revisit it. Given that our guideline is supported by ample evidence and now 3 actual Vietnamese style guides, I don't think that we should weaken it. Should we eventually decide more generally to retain variations in capitalization, typos and punctuation in tracklists then things may be different, but for standardized titles the guideline we have is as correct as it will ever be on this issue, IMHO. -- Philip Jägenstedt ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change
I often read here and there that you are willing to provide a plugin. Well I don’t use Picard for tagging but if you do, here is your plugin mytitle.replace(/(.+)(?: | | )(;|:|!|\?)/, $1$2); I personally don’t need any. This is not a feature request for a plugin of any sort, this is a guideline fix for titles in MB data. Philip Jägenstedt wrote To clarify for everyone who wasn't around, you did not participate in the original RFC/RFV cycle, but did object after the fact I note that you are quite blatant not fair play here pretending I did not participate as you recognized I was the only one to have done so! The history of the issue is available for everyone to inspect, so this accusation carries little weight. There has been no foul play, so let's just focus on the actual issue. The history is not in the archaic ML (however the ML history still has some interesting contradiction, see end of this post) where I was not subscribed at this time, it’s in our discussions around the RFC in wiki, edit notes and probably chat… it would have been so much more simmlpe in forums. So yes the history shows that I did participate and that we opposed on this punctuation part of the RFC, part that was then (re-)added post-RFC (I gave links already). [no-official-style] Philip Jägenstedt wrote No one is disputing that the French style can still be found, I'm just disputing that it's any more official. So you should agree not stating a rule on this in favour of one or the other. It’s the purpose of this RFV. Philip Jägenstedt wrote No, there are plenty of pictures of teaching materials at the given I wouldn’t say plenty, I saw one in you bullet list. But I agree that no-space is seen in many prints too. Philip Jägenstedt wrote link, some of them from the publisher in question. I wouldn’t say some, there is supposed to be one, but it’s missing (B2) from the start. Thanks very much for your new pics (back of CHIN-SU® and bilingual en-vi Bột bắp -corn wheat- have mixed-usage of space before punct btw). We are not going to uppload maximum of pictures, it’s endless as I can find countless examples of space and I see you have the tendency to flood 10 more nospace pics each time. I already said I saw space before punct on a daily basis in real life (not online if you want) Vietnam (south, if that has some importance to distinguish) including governamental stuff painted over meters wide panels. go back to [no-official-style] above, there was and is no reason to favour your preferred style over the other. Or if one is absolutely needed (which is not imo), should be favoured the legacy in lack of official. Philip Jägenstedt wrote half-width space and the other just sees glyph kerning? This *will* happen if the Vietnamese artists get enough attention from editors with opposite preferences. If they added kerning to render a space before a punctuation, then it’s a space before a punctuation, nothing less, nothing more. I don’t really get the tricky stuff here. Maybe I’m too simplistic mind. It’s easy to say Please just follow the back cover to people editing along preferences. Philip Jägenstedt wrote In any random sample I have taken the results have been clear: no-spaces is the dominant style. I guess that if you say this often enough, people will start to believe you (that actually happened already for last RFV), it’s the marketing methods. repeat-1/auto-reverse : So much space-before-punct in a country → Doubt says don’t advocate english style and this even insinuates that roots were probably with spaces. No official language rule and mixed usage in real life → no MB rules. MB should not substitute for linguists. Even if you can gather a few vietnamese editors, we shouldn’t create lang-rules that are not based on actual written official guidelines from state reputed source (not some random forum guidelines or stuff like that). Philip Jägenstedt wrote If you think arguing by analogy of Japanese_Releases_Clarification is useful, why aren't you suggesting that the capitalization of Vietnamese releases be preserved as well? Feel free to remove all vietnamese guidelines if you want to do so. Titles are often FunnyCaps on midi-saster releases from USA and either Sentence caps or FULLCAPS for release coming from country. But you fancy rules so much, I guess this was just irony. You should work for ISO (notice the funny ISO 2000 :9001 spacing taken from bột bắp), and propose standards for the coffee spoon sizes, pencil official diameters, WC marks colours, etc. ;p And anyway this was not a point on which we disagreed, it was the common part of our two proposals. Thus your initial RFC was good to include sentence case : first RFC/RFV history (chronological order) RFC http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-Capitalization-Standard-Vietnamese-td1062411.html Based on both seeing space and nospace fomr my and your wiki proposals. nikki wrote I would personally just make
Re: [mb-style] RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change
Philip Jägenstedt wrote: Consistency is, IMHO, one of the most valuable aspects of the MB database, and I do not see why this issue should be treated any differently from similar issues like capitalization, abbreviations, etc. In these areas you will find diversity in the wild, but we still have style guidelines. There are also plenty of (much more common) things we don't standardise though and yet they're not seen as a big problem. I don't see any particular *need* to standardise this. It affects a tiny amount of data edited by a tiny number of people and neither style appears to be incorrect anyway. Practically, if you and I look at the same cover scan and have different preferences, in 20% of the cases we will disagree if there is a space there or not. How should such editing conflicts be resolved? That http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:jesus2099/Style/Language/Vietnamese#Examples tries to distinguish between 3 different forms (no, narrow and full space) only makes this problem worse. I agree that trying to distinguish between three different forms is problematic (e.g. I don't agree that the space in the second example is narrow). There are however cases where I think we would all agree there is a space on the cover. For cases where it's debatable, we have a voting system. If deemed necessary, I can ask my wife (currently in Hanoi) to contact the ministry of education and ask what style is considered correct in higher education. It's possible that they don't know or care, of course. I leave it as an exercise to the reader to check what style they use on their website http://www.moet.gov.vn/. Although I suspect the answer is that they don't know or care, I would certainly be interested in knowing what they have to say about it, if she'd be willing to ask. At this point I hope that our style leader will interrupt us. Tristan and I have debated this for over 3 years and still don't agree, so this issue will clearly not be resolved by us alone. Style leader*s*. There's still two of us. ;) My summary: There are two people who currently care about the problem. One prefers spaces before the punctuation in question. One prefers no spaces before the punctuation in question. There are very few people editing Vietnamese in general. There are no known native Vietnamese speakers editing (if there are, I don't know who they are :)). There appears to be no official style. Both styles are found both in print and online. We do not know why both styles are used (whether it's generational, regional or simply personal preference). The proportions vary depending on the material being looked at, but the no space style seems to be more common. Both styles are (unsurprisingly) found on CD covers. The number of Vietnamese releases in general is still rather low. The number of releases this affects is tiny (~30). My conclusions: There are not enough people who care to come to a majority decision about which way to standardise it. There are not enough people who care about the issue to maintain the data according to such a guideline anyway. There is not enough data affected to make standardisation particularly useful right now. Therefore I think the best choice right now is a compromise, i.e. to allow both forms, which is effectively what this proposal is. If the authorities in Vietnam ever publish an official style (something which explicitly talks about how to write punctuation) or if we ever have a community of Vietnamese editors who care about which style should be used, then that would be a better time to revisit it. Nikki ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change
On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 19:47, jesus2099 hta3s836gzac...@jetable.org wrote: Philip Jägenstedt wrote To clarify for everyone who wasn't around, you did not participate in the original RFC/RFV cycle, but did object after the fact I note that you are quite blatant not fair play here pretending I did not participate as you recognized I was the only one to have done so! The history of the issue is available for everyone to inspect, so this accusation carries little weight. There has been no foul play, so let's just focus on the actual issue. Philip Jägenstedt wrote I don't understand what much more official means More official means more official. My pics are from schoolbooks and from governamental propaganda. Here is a new one if you want from this month in south AN TOÀN GIAO THÔNG HẠNH PHÚC CỦA MỌI NHÀ ! (lol) http://i.imgur.com/Ybtcu.jpg There are plenty of schoolbook examples in http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Talk:Style/Language/Vietnamese#From_an_Hanoi_Book_Store If I were still in Hanoi I could go out and find more examples of the no-spaces style in printed government materials, but I doubt that would convince you. No one is disputing that the French style can still be found, I'm just disputing that it's any more official. Philip Jägenstedt wrote every single item with print (mostly food) that I have brought back uses English style punctuation. If you want food, here you go (coffee, from my crappy phone camera) http://i.imgur.com/akneU.jpg http://i.imgur.com/RH2Sv.jpg Here are the 10 food items I found in my bag: http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Talk:Style/Language/Vietnamese#From_food_items As with the other 3 random-ish samples that I have taken, the no-space style comes out on top, this time by a very large margin. Philip Jägenstedt wrote the evidence collected in http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Talk:Style/Language/Vietnamese clearly show that both styles have been used in teaching materials, by the same publisher even. I suspect (but cannot prove) that spaces are used more often in materials for younger students for clarity. The only such picture (B2) is unfortunately missing. :p No, there are plenty of pictures of teaching materials at the given link, some of them from the publisher in question. Philip Jägenstedt wrote Consistency is, IMHO, one of the most valuable aspects of the MB Absolutely no need to be zealous for just a handful of tracks. Are the english used in Japanese releases consistent ? no ? does anyone die from that ? If you think arguing by analogy of http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Capitalization_Standard/Japanese_Releases_Clarification is useful, why aren't you suggesting that the capitalization of Vietnamese releases be preserved as well? Philip Jägenstedt wrote Practically, if you and I look at the same cover scan and have different preferences, in 20% of the cases we will disagree if there is a space there or not. Is it so difficult to see a space ? or a no space ? be serious, please. Just forget of anything like narrow space etc. It’s just a matter of SPACE=YES or SPACE=NO, OK ? If you input SPACE I don’t care it’s not another sort of space. It’s what’s already done in french. I don't know why you think I'm not being serious. How should edit conflicts be resolved when one editor sees a half-width space and the other just sees glyph kerning? This *will* happen if the Vietnamese artists get enough attention from editors with opposite preferences. END OF THE OFF TOPIC CRAP Being abusive does not help your case. This is an english style no-spaces country → we see less than 5% of spaces before punctuation (not the case here). We see many spaces (more than half, and majority in official stuff) and many no-spaces (I say some) → this is not an english style no-spaces country In any random sample I have taken the results have been clear: no-spaces is the dominant style. THE RFV IS NOT VETOED AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED. If a style leader could now confirm or infirm this, thanks. I am also looking forward to hearing from our style leader, and suggest that we stop this thread until that time. -- Philip Jägenstedt ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change
Philip Jägenstedt wrote To clarify for everyone who wasn't around, you did not participate in the original RFC/RFV cycle, but did object after the fact I strongly opposed it before it became RFV, either during RFC or before RFC. You were aware of my opposition at the time of these ML posts (I was not subscribed to ML during RFC and I was away during the few laps of time of the RFV) because you linked my guideline version with space punctuation in RFC http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-Capitalization-Standard-Vietnamese-tp1062411p1062411.html I note that you are quite blatant not fair play here pretending I did not participate as you recognized I was the only one to have done so! You even say « jesus2099 has put his MusicBrainz involvement on hold » in http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-Capitalization-Standard-Vietnamese-tp1062411p1062413.html as far as I remember I was pissed off by your arguing on this english style punctuation, it was such a lame way to say this and pass this in my back. And just before the RFV, after nikki suggested a guideline without punctuation you said « I will go forward with a RFV for the no-punctuation version when I'm back from vacation » in http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-Capitalization-Standard-Vietnamese-tp1062411p1062415.html This is exactly what I am doing now and I seriously take this old post of yours as a +1. Your veto is quite off topic. It would be acceptable if I was trying to enforce a space-punctuation (like what you did with no-space-punct). The veto in its terms is not acceptable for a guideline that skips a disputed part. OFF TOPIC replies to your invalid veto : Philip Jägenstedt wrote I don't understand what much more official means More official means more official. My pics are from schoolbooks and from governamental propaganda. Here is a new one if you want from this month in south AN TOÀN GIAO THÔNG HẠNH PHÚC CỦA MỌI NHÀ ! (lol) http://i.imgur.com/Ybtcu.jpg Philip Jägenstedt wrote every single item with print (mostly food) that I have brought back uses English style punctuation. If you want food, here you go (coffee, from my crappy phone camera) http://i.imgur.com/akneU.jpg http://i.imgur.com/RH2Sv.jpg Philip Jägenstedt wrote the evidence collected in http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Talk:Style/Language/Vietnamese clearly show that both styles have been used in teaching materials, by the same publisher even. I suspect (but cannot prove) that spaces are used more often in materials for younger students for clarity. The only such picture (B2) is unfortunately missing. :p In space countries like mine (france) and what I see in vietnam you see many spaces but not always because not everybody is aware (I’m currently reading a french book in a famous publisher wihtout spaces). So the only fact that we can see spaces on lots of places in Vietnam (including all the official schoolbooks I’ve seen and do own myself) is different from a true english punct country like yours and england etc. where there is probably NEVER spaces to be seen. Philip Jägenstedt wrote Consistency is, IMHO, one of the most valuable aspects of the MB Absolutely no need to be zealous for just a handful of tracks. Are the english used in Japanese releases consistent ? no ? does anyone die from that ? Philip Jägenstedt wrote Practically, if you and I look at the same cover scan and have different preferences, in 20% of the cases we will disagree if there is a space there or not. Is it so difficult to see a space ? or a no space ? be serious, please. Just forget of anything like narrow space etc. It’s just a matter of SPACE=YES or SPACE=NO, OK ? If you input SPACE I don’t care it’s not another sort of space. It’s what’s already done in french. END OF THE OFF TOPIC CRAP Philip Jägenstedt wrote At this point I hope that our style leader will interrupt us. Tristan and I have debated this for over 3 years and still don't agree, so this issue will clearly not be resolved by us alone. Exactly, style leaders should make this pass to eventually remove the disputed punctuation part and any controversy coming from this. This is an english style no-spaces country → we see less than 5% of spaces before punctuation (not the case here). We see many spaces (more than half, and majority in official stuff) and many no-spaces (I say some) → this is not an english style no-spaces country Our bias Maybe you see more no-space because you’re used to this because of your country. Maybe you see more no-space in north vietnam. Maybe I see more space because I’m used to this because of my country. Maybe I see more space in south vietnam. But there are lots of spaces so wa can’t say it’s english style at all. foolip sauid « The short story is that there is no known official Vietnamese style. » in last RFV so we are removing the litigious punctuation part. THE RFV IS NOT VETOED AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED. If a style leader could now
[mb-style] RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change
This goes to RFV-346. Having at last the occasion to use one of my favourite typical quotes from *Style ML* : A good people wrote It’s been more than a week now, [one] people raised some issues but nothing serious enough to cause a veto, so this can be considered passed now. I’ll the to update the wiki either today or tomorrow. Thanks! [Tristan] Sorry but I go to RFV the same way as your RFC did, back when I opposed it with much more official pictures than yours (you don’t bring anything new today). Philip Jägenstedt wrote On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 20:38, jesus2099 lt;hta3s836gzacohe@gt; wrote: I don't think it's feasible to defer to the cover for something that is so hard to judge: how much space before the punctuation is enough to justify a half-width space? The result will simply be inconsistent, with most track lists not being vetted against a cover and editors just picking the style they prefer. We don’t ask for something this difficult as narrow space or not. If there is a space (whatever its size) just put a space. I don’t think just following the very few printed recordings with punctuation is something too much difficult. I don’t think there is a positive to write a rule out of the blue that does not exist in reality (my official pics tend to show the contrary). I think We should still go on removing the punctuation part as it only concerns VERY few titles and that both ways DO co-exist peacefully. As usual if someone wants to put up a rule for something that doesn’t exist, *one can apply the rule of choice in a Picard plugin*. Abiding with new rules, I created a ticket in addition to the wiki page http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/STYLE-98 http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:jesus2099/Style/Language/Vietnamese Hope we will stop losing time with this as soon as possible, I was quite fair play to wait 2 weeks for your comment as I didn’t have such privilege on former RFC. Tristan. - jesus2099 × Ti = Tristan + patate12 ÷ saucisson7 mb : http://musicbrainz.org/user/jesus2099 mb userscripts : http://userscripts.org/users/31010/scripts IMPORTANT : hta3s836gzac...@jetable.org is a fake e-mail, I don’t receive anything in this (you can contact me through the mb link above). -- View this message in context: http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-346-Style-Language-Vietnamese-Punctuation-change-tp4226419p4413230.html Sent from the Musicbrainz - Style mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
