Re: [mb-style] Translated titles
I disagree. For obvious translated covers, where the original title is clearly given as part of the title information on the release track lists (very common for german, french, italian versions of english hits in the sixties and seventies), it makes sense to have them as part of the title. I most certainly would veto a guideline not allowing this. Pseudo-release for such cases is absurd. On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 2:15 PM, jesus2099 wrote: > Per Starbäck wrote > > When songs on a release are translated, often the original titles are > > given > > on the release as well. Sometimes they are formatted as if they are part > > of > > the title, but I think they shouldn't be, and would like this mentioned > in > > the style guides. > > Yes I also think we should use pseudo-releases, which is current only > work-around to the lack of foolip’s *ALTERNATIVE TRACKLISTS* ! \(^o^ )/ > http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/MBS-4501 (please enjoy voting this > tickets massively) > > > > - > PATATE12 > jesus2099 > GOLD MASTER KING > FAKE E-MAIL ADDRESS > -- > View this message in context: > http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/Translated-titles-tp4659969p4660404.html > Sent from the MusicBrainz - Style mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > ___ > MusicBrainz-style mailing list > MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org > http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style > ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Translated titles
Per Starbäck wrote > When songs on a release are translated, often the original titles are > given > on the release as well. Sometimes they are formatted as if they are part > of > the title, but I think they shouldn't be, and would like this mentioned in > the style guides. Yes I also think we should use pseudo-releases, which is current only work-around to the lack of foolip’s *ALTERNATIVE TRACKLISTS* ! \(^o^ )/ http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/MBS-4501 (please enjoy voting this tickets massively) - PATATE12 jesus2099 GOLD MASTER KING FAKE E-MAIL ADDRESS -- View this message in context: http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/Translated-titles-tp4659969p4660404.html Sent from the MusicBrainz - Style mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Translated titles
29 november 2013, monxton skrev: Yes, the title of the track it is a cover of sounds like "Additionalinformation on a release or track name" to me.Yes, it is additional information, but it is not ETI as defined in the guidelines.Well, then the guidelines needs to be made clearer if it is not obvious that extra track information should not be in the track title even if it is written in the same typeface and/or size as the track title. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Translated titles
On 29/11/2013 08:24, Staffan Vilcans wrote: > > monxton skrev: > >> The ETI guideline you point is for "Additional information on a release >> or track name that is not part of its main title, but intended to >> distinguish it from different releases or tracks with the same main >> title". > > Yes, the title of the track it is a cover of sounds like "Additional > information on a release or track name" to me. Yes, it is additional information, but it is not ETI as defined in the guidelines. The purpose of ETI is to distinguish one version of the track from another, (ex: radio edit). That is not the purpose of the translation. >> That is not what translations are for, and I don't think it >> applies. The section I pointed to about multiple languages is more >> relevant. > > What would that be? > > ... (quote about the language attribute) ... > No, I refer to the section I quoted earlier in this thread. I'll quote it again: "If the release has tracks listed in multiple languages, the entry with both languages included is considered to be the official release." ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Translated titles
monxton skrev: > The ETI guideline you point is for "Additional information on a release > or track name that is not part of its main title, but intended to > distinguish it from different releases or tracks with the same main > title". Yes, the title of the track it is a cover of sounds like "Additional information on a release or track name" to me. > That is not what translations are for, and I don't think it > applies. The section I pointed to about multiple languages is more > relevant. What would that be? "The language attribute should be used for the language used for the release title and track titles. It should not be used for the language the lyrics are written in, nor for the language used for other extra information on the cover."? That is about the language attribute. -- http://www.interface1.net ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Translated titles
Frederic Da Vitoria skrev: >> Take a look at >> http://beatle.net/wp-content/uploads/hey-jude-full-single.jpg for >> instance. Is the title of the track "Hey Jude" or "Hey Jude (Lennon >> McCartney)"? >> > > Staffan, I don't understand your example: "Lennon McCartney" isn't a > translation, so IMO your example doesn't apply. It is in a parenthesis after the title so in that respect it is the same. > Could you explain why you think that *translations* > should not be mentioned in the title? Because they are not a part of the title. Just like "Lennon McCartney" it is extra information. Just like "4:13" or "120 bpm", "Whatever cover" or any other information that may appear on the track listing. -- http://www.interface1.net ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Translated titles
On 27/11/2013 07:16, Staffan wrote: > Tue Nov 26 2013 17:04:20 GMT+0100, monxton > skrev: >> OK. So does that mean that: >> a) you think that the guidelines: >> http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Release do not apply to this release, or >> b) you disagree with the guidelines ? >> > I think the closest guideline would be > http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Titles/Extra_title_information or > possibly http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Titles/Subtitles but neither > it a perfect match. The ETI guideline you point is for "Additional information on a release or track name that is not part of its main title, but intended to distinguish it from different releases or tracks with the same main title". That is not what translations are for, and I don't think it applies. The section I pointed to about multiple languages is more relevant. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Translated titles
2013/11/27 Staffan > Tue Nov 26 2013 17:04:20 GMT+0100, monxton > skrev: > > OK. So does that mean that: > a) you think that the guidelines: > http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Release do not apply to this release, or > b) you disagree with the guidelines ? > > I think the closest guideline would be > http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Titles/Extra_title_information or > possibly http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Titles/Subtitles but neither it > a perfect match. > > Take a look at > http://beatle.net/wp-content/uploads/hey-jude-full-single.jpg for > instance. Is the title of the track "Hey Jude" or "Hey Jude (Lennon > McCartney)"? > Staffan, I don't understand your example: "Lennon McCartney" isn't a translation, so IMO your example doesn't apply. Note that I am not saying that the translation should appear in the title, only that your example seems irrelevant. Could you explain why you think that *translations* should not be mentioned in the title? -- Frederic Da Vitoria (davitof) Membre de l'April - « promouvoir et défendre le logiciel libre » - http://www.april.org ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Translated titles
Tue Nov 26 2013 17:04:20 GMT+0100, monxton skrev:OK. So does that mean that:a) you think that the guidelines: http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Release do not apply to this release, orb) you disagree with the guidelines ? I think the closest guideline would be http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Titles/Extra_title_information or possibly http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Titles/Subtitles but neither it a perfect match.Take a look at http://beatle.net/wp-content/uploads/hey-jude-full-single.jpg for instance. Is the title of the track "Hey Jude" or "Hey Jude (Lennon McCartney)"? ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Translated titles
On 11/26/2013 06:41 AM, monxton wrote: > Does anyone here think that the > translations should not be in the track titles? Personally I find them > useful when listening to the music. In that example, I would find them useful too. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Translated titles
On 26/11/2013 15:16, Staffan Vilcans wrote: > > monxton skrev: > >> This album of Bulgarian songs was produced by Joe Boyd, essentially for >> an English-speaking audience, and the cover has titles in Bulgarian with >> English translations in parens. Does anyone here think that the >> translations should not be in the track titles? > > I do. > OK. So does that mean that: a) you think that the guidelines: http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Release do not apply to this release, or b) you disagree with the guidelines ? ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Translated titles
monxton skrev: > This album of Bulgarian songs was produced by Joe Boyd, essentially for > an English-speaking audience, and the cover has titles in Bulgarian with > English translations in parens. Does anyone here think that the > translations should not be in the track titles? I do. -- http://www.interface1.net ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Translated titles
I generally think they shouldn't be on the track titles, and there should be a second translated tracklist in English. But right now that involves creating a pseudorelease which is a pain, so if someone really wants to add a release like that I'm not going to vote No either... it feels wrong to me, but well :/ ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Translated titles
So it's been established that the translations are indeed "what's on the cover", and we are always on shaky ground when it comes to that because some editors rate that very highly. Not that I'm bitter or anything, but having been previously outvoted when I objected to an editor changing a track title to "Translated Title/Original Title", their argument being that that was how it was printed on the cover, I know that there are other views out there. To my mind that was a whole lot worse than "Translated Title (Original Title)". I know this is the other way round to Per Starbäck's release, but for a different example, look at http://musicbrainz.org/release/f1057c2e-2981-467e-a581-f2ef2b926a11 . The artwork (watermarked) can be seen at http://www.folklorediscography.org/HNCD-1342.htm. This album of Bulgarian songs was produced by Joe Boyd, essentially for an English-speaking audience, and the cover has titles in Bulgarian with English translations in parens. Does anyone here think that the translations should not be in the track titles? Personally I find them useful when listening to the music. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Translated titles
On 25/11/2013 21:27, Per Starbäck wrote:
> Now I think I worded my question wrong. It's not actually about
> translations of the song titles. It's about mentioning the original song
> that this is a (translated) version of.
>
> I have releases with translations of the titles (for the benefit of
> those not knowing the language). But my examples in the original post
> here is really something else. In
>
>MITT LIV BLEV MUSIK (UNDER MY THUMB)
>
> (which was one of my examples) it tells the reader that the this work
> "Mitt liv blev musik" is a version of the work "Under My Thumb". The
> title is not really a translation. ("Mitt liv blev musik" means "My life
> became music".) In most cases these versions are more or less free
> translations. Without relistening to any of the two tracks, in this case
> I guess the melody is just reused with a new text.
>
> Lots of "Swedish" hits during several decades were really foreign songs
> with translations or with other new texts. It must have been the same in
> many countries. And at least here the original songs are often mentioned
> like this.
>
> The reason I take this up now is because I saw
> http://musicbrainz.org/edit/24949120 and similar edits that add these
> parens where I don't like them, so I wanted to bring it up.
OK. Then I agree with what you say in the edit, that the translations of
the song should be linked via their works.
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Re: [mb-style] Translated titles
On 11/25/2013 01:27 PM, Per Starbäck wrote: > > Now I think I worded my question wrong. It's not actually about > translations of the song titles. It's about mentioning the original > song that this is a (translated) version of. I agree. I think there's a difference between a multiple-language tracklist and a tracklist with parenthetical information (even if that information is the original or un-translated title). Alex / caller#6 ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Translated titles
>
> Actually we do have a guideline about this, in
> http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Release (note that this is not only
> about release titles, but track titles too). That talks about using a
> pseudo-release for translations which are not derived from the release
> itself, but also "If the release has tracks listed in multiple
> languages, the entry with both languages included is considered to be
> the official release."
Now I think I worded my question wrong. It's not actually about
translations of the song titles. It's about mentioning the original song
that this is a (translated) version of.
I have releases with translations of the titles (for the benefit of those
not knowing the language). But my examples in the original post here is
really something else. In
MITT LIV BLEV MUSIK (UNDER MY THUMB)
(which was one of my examples) it tells the reader that the this work "Mitt
liv blev musik" is a version of the work "Under My Thumb". The title is not
really a translation. ("Mitt liv blev musik" means "My life became music".)
In most cases these versions are more or less free translations. Without
relistening to any of the two tracks, in this case I guess the melody is
just reused with a new text.
Lots of "Swedish" hits during several decades were really foreign songs
with translations or with other new texts. It must have been the same in
many countries. And at least here the original songs are often mentioned
like this.
The reason I take this up now is because I saw
http://musicbrainz.org/edit/24949120 and similar edits that add these
parens where I don't like them, so I wanted to bring it up.
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Re: [mb-style] Translated titles
I’m keeping a bit of an observer’s eye on this thread because I see some parallels with some releases I work with. Japanese bands Yellow Magic Orchestra and P-MODEL often used both Japanese and English titles for their works and recordings, listing them side-by-side on the release packaging. I don’t know if this qualifies, but a lot of Japanese artists take creative license with how they spell/write song and release titles. One I’m currently working with is http://musicbrainz.org/release/d885d397-882f-427d-bff0-c033e722927d ; as you can probably see the title is written as “二人の関係” but above the 関係 is katakana reading リエゾン. This not only modifies the reading of the title but the meaning as well as 関係 means “connection” while リエゾン means “liaison.” I normally skip over furigana in release and track titles because adding pseudo-releases for every possible transliteration and translation would be a tremendous waste of space. IMO we need a better guideline for such circumstances, but I’m at a loss as to what it might be. On Nov 25, 2013, at 1:39 PM, monxton wrote: > On 25/11/2013 10:00, Staffan Vilcans wrote: >> >> Per Starbäck skrev: >> >>> Often original titles are formatted in a special way, often in a smaller >>> or >>> different typeface. It can look like in this extract: >>> [image: Infogad bild 1] >>> from http://musicbrainz.org/release/7051fd1a-0b4a-4de5-b827-5591d4bf61c3 . >>> Here a track is listed as >>> >>> ATT SKILJAS ÄR ATT DÖ LITE GRANN >>> (Cryin Time) >>> >>> with the title in uppercase and the original title in mixed case inside >>> parentheses. >> >> >> Looks like it it something used for translated covers. You give the title >> of the original version. We have relationships for that and I don't think >> they should be in the title. >> > > Actually we do have a guideline about this, in > http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Release (note that this is not only > about release titles, but track titles too). That talks about using a > pseudo-release for translations which are not derived from the release > itself, but also "If the release has tracks listed in multiple > languages, the entry with both languages included is considered to be > the official release." So putting the original language in the title > within parentheses is endorsed by the guidelines. > > Though IMO recording titles should not be translated. > > > ___ > MusicBrainz-style mailing list > MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org > http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Translated titles
On 25/11/2013 10:00, Staffan Vilcans wrote: > > Per Starbäck skrev: > >> Often original titles are formatted in a special way, often in a smaller >> or >> different typeface. It can look like in this extract: >> [image: Infogad bild 1] >> from http://musicbrainz.org/release/7051fd1a-0b4a-4de5-b827-5591d4bf61c3 . >> Here a track is listed as >> >>ATT SKILJAS ÄR ATT DÖ LITE GRANN >>(Cryin Time) >> >> with the title in uppercase and the original title in mixed case inside >> parentheses. > > > Looks like it it something used for translated covers. You give the title > of the original version. We have relationships for that and I don't think > they should be in the title. > Actually we do have a guideline about this, in http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Release (note that this is not only about release titles, but track titles too). That talks about using a pseudo-release for translations which are not derived from the release itself, but also "If the release has tracks listed in multiple languages, the entry with both languages included is considered to be the official release." So putting the original language in the title within parentheses is endorsed by the guidelines. Though IMO recording titles should not be translated. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Translated titles
Per Starbäck skrev: > Often original titles are formatted in a special way, often in a smaller > or > different typeface. It can look like in this extract: > [image: Infogad bild 1] > from http://musicbrainz.org/release/7051fd1a-0b4a-4de5-b827-5591d4bf61c3 . > Here a track is listed as > > ATT SKILJAS ÄR ATT DÖ LITE GRANN > (Cryin Time) > > with the title in uppercase and the original title in mixed case inside > parentheses. Looks like it it something used for translated covers. You give the title of the original version. We have relationships for that and I don't think they should be in the title. -- http://www.interface1.net ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
[mb-style] Translated titles
When songs on a release are translated, often the original titles are given
on the release as well. Sometimes they are formatted as if they are part of
the title, but I think they shouldn't be, and would like this mentioned in
the style guides.
Often original titles are formatted in a special way, often in a smaller or
different typeface. It can look like in this extract:
[image: Infogad bild 1]
from http://musicbrainz.org/release/7051fd1a-0b4a-4de5-b827-5591d4bf61c3 .
Here a track is listed as
ATT SKILJAS ÄR ATT DÖ LITE GRANN
(Cryin Time)
with the title in uppercase and the original title in mixed case inside
parentheses.
But sometimes they are just listed inside parentheses after the title, like
in these examples
[image: Infogad bild 2]
taken from
http://musicbrainz.org/release/31dd34a2-628e-4d93-9e2b-7a9a1e69fe7e . An
extract:
(SOLEN LYSER ÄN PÅ) MITT GAMLA BARNDOMSHEM
(MY OLD KENTYCKY HOME)
MITT LIV BLEV MUSIC
(UNDER MY THUMB)
Note in the first case how parentheses are both used in the title "(Solen
lyser än på) Mitt gamla barndomshem", and also used to tell us what the
original version was called ("My Old Kentycky Home").
When I started editing, I entered these in the some titles, but then I
stopped doing that, realizing that they are not actually part of the
titles. (And not of what we call "Extra title information" either, really.)
I would like some agreement and also clarification about this in style
guides though. This is very common in some types of releases.
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