Re: Unexpected network error
Hello Kyle, Am 2008-09-26 17:44:34, schrieb Kyle Wheeler: Let me say that again: the IDLE extension means that your client tells the server let me know when new mail comes, which is different from periodically checking for new mail. I am right, that IDLE is working only for ONE mailfolder? Since I have to watch many mailfolders from mailinglists sometimes my mutt is VERY busy responding to mailfolder changes and such because it is checking in the background the mailboxes =.1 =.2 =.3 ... Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening Michelle Konzack Systemadministrator 24V Electronic Engineer Tamay Dogan Network Debian GNU/Linux Consultant -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant # Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 +49/177/935194750, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi +33/6/61925193 67100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) signature.pgp Description: Digital signature
Re: Unexpected network error
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, October 2 at 01:57 AM, quoth Michelle Konzack: I am right, that IDLE is working only for ONE mailfolder? Yes - in the IMAP protocol, the IDLE command only monitors the currently selected mailbox in that connection. Technically, if you want to monitor multiple mailboxes with IDLE, you need to use multiple connections... this is not something that mutt does, and not something most servers expect (many of them have a low default limit on the number of concurrent connections from a single IP address). Since I have to watch many mailfolders from mailinglists sometimes my mutt is VERY busy responding to mailfolder changes and such because it is checking in the background the mailboxes =.1 =.2 =.3 ... Which is yet another reason not to have mutt check all your mailboxes every ten seconds. ~Kyle - -- A wise man changes his mind, a fool never. -- Spanish proverb -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Comment: Thank you for using encryption! iEYEARECAAYFAkjqJCMACgkQBkIOoMqOI17ePwCgkwfGFlVGjOrHyVwoJYp1nceG KYkAoIEuOlkro3rl5eoSvcfpBSdsM7GL =6rji -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Unexpected network error
On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 9:01 PM, Kyle Wheeler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, September 25 at 04:26 PM, quoth Ravi Uday: I dont ahve $imap_keepalive set. So you want me to have this : $timeout=15 $imap_keepalive=10 That's awfully small. You can make them bigger (e.g. timeout=300, imap_keepalive=60, or even larger). I know the man page makes it sound like timeout really needs to be extra small, but don't sweat it. The default is 600, and you generally don't really need it anywhere near as small as 15. Think about that: that's potentially checking your email every 15 seconds. Depending on the number of mailboxes you have Well 600 is damn big, check your emails every 10mins !! How did you(they) arrive at this number ? Outlook does it every 20 secs or lesser. And its better to get your mails fast then wait for 10mins.. Since I use mutt in a corporate n/w, it doesnt matter if its 10secs/20secs. Ravi and the latency of your connection, it could easily take longer than that to complete a check for mail! I know mail admins that get grumpy when people check their email even every 5 minutes, due to all the network traffic they generate. When you're checking a file on disk, well, you can check that pretty dang often without a performance effect. But over the network? You may be causing your own problem by having such small timeouts. Generally, I would say: stick with the default values unless you have a reason to change them (the defaults weren't chosen by morons). Chances are, you can probably leave $timeout at 600. Give the defaults a try, and go from there. ~Kyle - -- What progress we are making. In the Middle Ages they would have burned me. Now they are content with burning my books. -- Sigmund Freud -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Comment: Thank you for using encryption! iEYEARECAAYFAkjcXo4ACgkQBkIOoMqOI16qcQCeOhB3O9JjRDtJDuA96+KFcWmb 2KcAoM5bQBTBZXtSSC4s4DeCduvRF2vV =rK7o -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Unexpected network error
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
On Friday, September 26 at 12:39 PM, quoth Ravi Uday:
That's awfully small. You can make them bigger (e.g. timeout=300,
imap_keepalive=60, or even larger). I know the man page makes it sound
like timeout really needs to be extra small, but don't sweat it. The
default is 600, and you generally don't really need it anywhere near
as small as 15. Think about that: that's potentially checking your
email every 15 seconds. Depending on the number of mailboxes you have
Well 600 is damn big, check your emails every 10mins !! How did
you(they) arrive at this number?
Generally, over IMAP, the *best* way to do it is to use IMAP's IDLE
extension. What happens is that the IMAP server will *notify* you when
you get mail, rather than having you constantly ask it now? how about
now? now? now? what about now?, and mutt fully supports the IDLE
feature (better than some IMAP servers do, actually).
Anyway, I don't know where the 10 minute default came from in the
beginning, but I think it's quite reasonable.
Outlook does it every 20 secs or lesser.
No, I'm afraid you're mistaken.
http://email.about.com/od/outlookexpresstips/qt/et052206.htm says:
Decide on how often you want Windows Mail or Outlook Express to
look for new mail. Typical values are between 10 and 60 minutes.
www.outlook-tips.net/beginner/autosr.htm says:
You should not check it more often than every 8 -10 min because it
creates too much load on your mail server and a large amount of
mail will cause some versions of Outlook to hang if it is still
downloading mail when the next automatic mail pass starts.
I also just loaded up my copy of VirtualBox to check out Microsoft
Outlook 2000 myself. The default setting for new accounts is to check
for new messages every 10 minutes, and it's *impossible* to change
that setting to less than 1 minute (you can see a screen shot of the
dialog box here: http://www.memoryhole.net/~kyle/outlook.png - note
the Check for new messages every config option in the center of the
dialog box).
And its better to get your mails fast then wait for 10mins..
Ummm, okay... I think if someone has something that important to say,
they should use a medium other than email (such as the phone). Email
transmission can easily introduce delays of several minutes, long
before you even have the chance to receive it.
Since I use mutt in a corporate n/w, it doesnt matter if its
10secs/20secs.
The speed of your network doesn't matter. What matters is the load and
response time of your IMAP server. I know mail admins (good ones) that
have warned their users against checking mail more often than every 5
minutes, despite the fact that most of their clients use a full-duplex
100 Base-T ethernet connection to connect to the server (and some use
gigabit). It's not necessarily the bandwidth, but also the disk I/O -
when you've got 20+ people all checking their entire folder
hierarchies constantly, that can kill your server.
Just as an experiment, see how long it takes for the following command
to kill your computer (or just imagine it; trust me, your computer
will quickly become unusable):
while true; do find $HOME /dev/null done
...or, even more fun:
while true; do
find $HOME -type f -exec tail {} \; /dev/null
done
Now, granted, there are ways that you may be able to mitigate the
problem, and let's not get into questions of how powerful and/or
efficient and/or well-configured your mail server is. The fact of the
matter is: checking your mail that quickly (every few seconds) over
and over again is not only uncommon, but generally a really bad
idea---even on a corporate network.
If you really MUST have your mail that fast (assuming your IMAP server
doesn't support the IDLE command), then a better option would be to
have your email forwarded to your local computer as it comes in, so
you can check your inbox as often as you want without causing anyone
else any trouble.
~Kyle
- --
No one loves armed missionaries.
-- Maximilien Robespierre
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Comment: Thank you for using encryption!
iEYEARECAAYFAkjdRgIACgkQBkIOoMqOI14ToACeOTrMHHNuqW3qY1I5MWx60xsJ
SJcAoOXS8cyIru3sEX8HlOmoZuzkk3AX
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Re: Unexpected network error
On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 1:28 PM, Kyle Wheeler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
On Friday, September 26 at 12:39 PM, quoth Ravi Uday:
That's awfully small. You can make them bigger (e.g. timeout=300,
imap_keepalive=60, or even larger). I know the man page makes it sound
like timeout really needs to be extra small, but don't sweat it. The
default is 600, and you generally don't really need it anywhere near
as small as 15. Think about that: that's potentially checking your
email every 15 seconds. Depending on the number of mailboxes you have
Well 600 is damn big, check your emails every 10mins !! How did
you(they) arrive at this number?
Generally, over IMAP, the *best* way to do it is to use IMAP's IDLE
extension. What happens is that the IMAP server will *notify* you when
you get mail, rather than having you constantly ask it now? how about
now? now? now? what about now?, and mutt fully supports the IDLE
feature (better than some IMAP servers do, actually).
Anyway, I don't know where the 10 minute default came from in the
beginning, but I think it's quite reasonable.
Outlook does it every 20 secs or lesser.
No, I'm afraid you're mistaken.
http://email.about.com/od/outlookexpresstips/qt/et052206.htm says:
Decide on how often you want Windows Mail or Outlook Express to
look for new mail. Typical values are between 10 and 60 minutes.
www.outlook-tips.net/beginner/autosr.htm says:
You should not check it more often than every 8 -10 min because it
creates too much load on your mail server and a large amount of
mail will cause some versions of Outlook to hang if it is still
downloading mail when the next automatic mail pass starts.
I also just loaded up my copy of VirtualBox to check out Microsoft
Outlook 2000 myself. The default setting for new accounts is to check
for new messages every 10 minutes, and it's *impossible* to change
that setting to less than 1 minute (you can see a screen shot of the
Well I am not mistaken. I dont know which version you are using or looked at:
Here is mine : MS Office Outlook 2003 (11.8...) SP3
And in there I can clearly set it at 1 minute.
(Goto : Tools-Send/Receive -- Send-Receive-Settings -- Define
Send/Receive groups)
In there you can see the least allowed is 1 min.
I also spoke with network-admin and he confirmed its in the order of secs.
Practically, I also asked my colleague to send me a email. And within
20-30secs it was there in my Outlook.
dialog box here: http://www.memoryhole.net/~kyle/outlook.png - note
the Check for new messages every config option in the center of the
dialog box).
And its better to get your mails fast then wait for 10mins..
Ummm, okay... I think if someone has something that important to say,
they should use a medium other than email (such as the phone). Email
transmission can easily introduce delays of several minutes, long
before you even have the chance to receive it.
Since I use mutt in a corporate n/w, it doesnt matter if its
10secs/20secs.
The speed of your network doesn't matter. What matters is the load and
response time of your IMAP server. I know mail admins (good ones) that
have warned their users against checking mail more often than every 5
minutes, despite the fact that most of their clients use a full-duplex
100 Base-T ethernet connection to connect to the server (and some use
gigabit). It's not necessarily the bandwidth, but also the disk I/O -
when you've got 20+ people all checking their entire folder
hierarchies constantly, that can kill your server.
Just as an experiment, see how long it takes for the following command
to kill your computer (or just imagine it; trust me, your computer
will quickly become unusable):
while true; do find $HOME /dev/null done
...or, even more fun:
while true; do
find $HOME -type f -exec tail {} \; /dev/null
done
Now, granted, there are ways that you may be able to mitigate the
problem, and let's not get into questions of how powerful and/or
efficient and/or well-configured your mail server is. The fact of the
matter is: checking your mail that quickly (every few seconds) over
and over again is not only uncommon, but generally a really bad
idea---even on a corporate network.
Well most commonly all your terminals(PCs) will be wired to a VLAN operating
over a catalyst giga-bit switches. It has the capacity to switch
packets at x-gigs per secs and we
are here talking of kb's of mail data. Its negligence IMO.
- Ravi
If you really MUST have your mail that fast (assuming your IMAP server
doesn't support the IDLE command), then a better option would be to
have your email forwarded to your local computer as it comes in, so
you can check your inbox as often as you want without causing anyone
else any trouble.
~Kyle
- --
No one loves armed missionaries.
-- Maximilien Robespierre
Re: Unexpected network error
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, September 26 at 03:23 PM, quoth Ravi Uday: I also just loaded up my copy of VirtualBox to check out Microsoft Outlook 2000 myself. The default setting for new accounts is to check for new messages every 10 minutes, and it's *impossible* to change that setting to less than 1 minute (you can see a screen shot of the Well I am not mistaken. I dont know which version you are using or looked at: Here is mine : MS Office Outlook 2003 (11.8...) SP3 And in there I can clearly set it at 1 minute. (Goto : Tools-Send/Receive -- Send-Receive-Settings -- Define Send/Receive groups) In there you can see the least allowed is 1 min. Which is EXACTLY WHAT I SAID. It's impossible to set it to less than 1 minute. You said you were configuring your Outlook to check every 20 seconds, which is technically impossible by your own admission. I also spoke with network-admin and he confirmed its in the order of secs. 60 seconds is on the order of secs. Practically, I also asked my colleague to send me a email. And within 20-30secs it was there in my Outlook. That's got nothing to do with anything. The 20-30 second delay could easily be how long it takes to deliver email, and Outlook could easily be using the IMAP IDLE extension (or whatever the equivalent is in the MAPI protocol), which would mean that the mail client gets notified the very moment that email arrives. Mutt also supports the IDLE extension, and can do the exact same thing you just observed Outlook do, and mutt can do that even with $timeout set to 600, because IDLE doesn't rely on the client re-checking for new email. IDLE *informs* the client of new mail *unasked*. It can be thought of as a push protocol. Let me say that again: the IDLE extension means that your client tells the server let me know when new mail comes, which is different from periodically checking for new mail. Well most commonly all your terminals(PCs) will be wired to a VLAN operating over a catalyst giga-bit switches. It has the capacity to switch packets at x-gigs per secs and we are here talking of kb's of mail data. Its negligence IMO. sigh You didn't read what I wrote. I'm talking about load on the server, not bandwidth. The fanciness of your network is *irrelevant* to my point. ~Kyle - -- They say marriages are made in Heaven. But so is thunder and lightning. -- Clint Eastwood -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Comment: Thank you for using encryption! iEYEARECAAYFAkjdZdIACgkQBkIOoMqOI17KOQCfaCWjxpk5K+AeZQ+ygREEbNI4 PRAAnA5Npbg7s0PkHkVtQUaQuYmt6ctv =8cF0 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Unexpected network error
Ok..sounds like IDLE extension is the way to go. Let me see how to make that extension. Thanks Kyle - Ravi On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 3:44 PM, Kyle Wheeler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, September 26 at 03:23 PM, quoth Ravi Uday: I also just loaded up my copy of VirtualBox to check out Microsoft Outlook 2000 myself. The default setting for new accounts is to check for new messages every 10 minutes, and it's *impossible* to change that setting to less than 1 minute (you can see a screen shot of the Well I am not mistaken. I dont know which version you are using or looked at: Here is mine : MS Office Outlook 2003 (11.8...) SP3 And in there I can clearly set it at 1 minute. (Goto : Tools-Send/Receive -- Send-Receive-Settings -- Define Send/Receive groups) In there you can see the least allowed is 1 min. Which is EXACTLY WHAT I SAID. It's impossible to set it to less than 1 minute. You said you were configuring your Outlook to check every 20 seconds, which is technically impossible by your own admission. I also spoke with network-admin and he confirmed its in the order of secs. 60 seconds is on the order of secs. Practically, I also asked my colleague to send me a email. And within 20-30secs it was there in my Outlook. That's got nothing to do with anything. The 20-30 second delay could easily be how long it takes to deliver email, and Outlook could easily be using the IMAP IDLE extension (or whatever the equivalent is in the MAPI protocol), which would mean that the mail client gets notified the very moment that email arrives. Mutt also supports the IDLE extension, and can do the exact same thing you just observed Outlook do, and mutt can do that even with $timeout set to 600, because IDLE doesn't rely on the client re-checking for new email. IDLE *informs* the client of new mail *unasked*. It can be thought of as a push protocol. Let me say that again: the IDLE extension means that your client tells the server let me know when new mail comes, which is different from periodically checking for new mail. Well most commonly all your terminals(PCs) will be wired to a VLAN operating over a catalyst giga-bit switches. It has the capacity to switch packets at x-gigs per secs and we are here talking of kb's of mail data. Its negligence IMO. sigh You didn't read what I wrote. I'm talking about load on the server, not bandwidth. The fanciness of your network is *irrelevant* to my point. ~Kyle - -- They say marriages are made in Heaven. But so is thunder and lightning. -- Clint Eastwood -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Comment: Thank you for using encryption! iEYEARECAAYFAkjdZdIACgkQBkIOoMqOI17KOQCfaCWjxpk5K+AeZQ+ygREEbNI4 PRAAnA5Npbg7s0PkHkVtQUaQuYmt6ctv =8cF0 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Unexpected network error
Hi Kyle, Yes am using imap with mutt. $timeout was at 15. I reduced it to 10 now. Here are the details: set timeout=10 #set time_inc=250 set net_inc=1 set read_inc=10 set write_inc=10 set connect_timeout=10 #timeout a network connection after x secs Hope th above should fix it. Will get back if it doesnt Thanks, Ravi On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 9:45 PM, Kyle Wheeler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday, September 24 at 07:25 PM, quoth Ravi Uday: If i leave mutt open for say 1 or2 hrs theres 99% chance of the An unexpected network error occurred. when I try to send mail using 'y' key. I end up closing mutt reopen and then retry this time it goes through. There's not usually much more information than that, but that sort of error message suggests to me that you're using mutt to access an IMAP mailbox, and your connection timed out. I'd say reduce your timeout values ($timeout and $imap_keepalive). ~Kyle - -- He who dares not offend cannot be honest. -- Thomas Paine -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Comment: Thank you for using encryption! iEYEARECAAYFAkjbF30ACgkQBkIOoMqOI146lwCeNW2cfAV0/oR8HY81/KY8tTvg hMwAn2ehvmbPU8Wv2cz4bmrikC578EWA =0p00 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Unexpected network error
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, September 25 at 01:35 PM, quoth Ravi Uday: Hi Kyle, Yes am using imap with mutt. $timeout was at 15. I reduced it to 10 now. Mutt's IMAP code didn't (until *very* recently) always behave itself when $timeout is smaller than $imap_keepalive (which defaults to 300). So unless you're following the hg devel tree pretty closely, I strongly recommend that you put $timeout back where it was and reduce $imap_keepalive. ~Kyle - -- The past isn't dead and buried. In fact, it isn't even past. -- William Faulkner -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Comment: Thank you for using encryption! iEYEARECAAYFAkjb+NEACgkQBkIOoMqOI16jVwCgmvd50vUDT/ReesZCVIKAm0/8 BMYAoIzMHV3WnZuJZIKC/E2FOW1sejZ9 =mbFE -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Unexpected network error
I dont ahve $imap_keepalive set. So you want me to have this : $timeout=15 $imap_keepalive=10 Ravi On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 1:47 PM, Kyle Wheeler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, September 25 at 01:35 PM, quoth Ravi Uday: Hi Kyle, Yes am using imap with mutt. $timeout was at 15. I reduced it to 10 now. Mutt's IMAP code didn't (until *very* recently) always behave itself when $timeout is smaller than $imap_keepalive (which defaults to 300). So unless you're following the hg devel tree pretty closely, I strongly recommend that you put $timeout back where it was and reduce $imap_keepalive. ~Kyle - -- The past isn't dead and buried. In fact, it isn't even past. -- William Faulkner -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Comment: Thank you for using encryption! iEYEARECAAYFAkjb+NEACgkQBkIOoMqOI16jVwCgmvd50vUDT/ReesZCVIKAm0/8 BMYAoIzMHV3WnZuJZIKC/E2FOW1sejZ9 =mbFE -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Unexpected network error
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, September 25 at 04:26 PM, quoth Ravi Uday: I dont ahve $imap_keepalive set. So you want me to have this : $timeout=15 $imap_keepalive=10 That's awfully small. You can make them bigger (e.g. timeout=300, imap_keepalive=60, or even larger). I know the man page makes it sound like timeout really needs to be extra small, but don't sweat it. The default is 600, and you generally don't really need it anywhere near as small as 15. Think about that: that's potentially checking your email every 15 seconds. Depending on the number of mailboxes you have and the latency of your connection, it could easily take longer than that to complete a check for mail! I know mail admins that get grumpy when people check their email even every 5 minutes, due to all the network traffic they generate. When you're checking a file on disk, well, you can check that pretty dang often without a performance effect. But over the network? You may be causing your own problem by having such small timeouts. Generally, I would say: stick with the default values unless you have a reason to change them (the defaults weren't chosen by morons). Chances are, you can probably leave $timeout at 600. Give the defaults a try, and go from there. ~Kyle - -- What progress we are making. In the Middle Ages they would have burned me. Now they are content with burning my books. -- Sigmund Freud -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Comment: Thank you for using encryption! iEYEARECAAYFAkjcXo4ACgkQBkIOoMqOI16qcQCeOhB3O9JjRDtJDuA96+KFcWmb 2KcAoM5bQBTBZXtSSC4s4DeCduvRF2vV =rK7o -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Unexpected network error
Hi, If i leave mutt open for say 1 or2 hrs theres 99% chance of the An unexpected network error occurred. when I try to send mail using 'y' key. I end up closing mutt reopen and then retry this time it goes through. So is there any place i can check why the error occured ? Or any variable which helps me avoid this.. Thanks Ravi
Re: Unexpected network error
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday, September 24 at 07:25 PM, quoth Ravi Uday: If i leave mutt open for say 1 or2 hrs theres 99% chance of the An unexpected network error occurred. when I try to send mail using 'y' key. I end up closing mutt reopen and then retry this time it goes through. There's not usually much more information than that, but that sort of error message suggests to me that you're using mutt to access an IMAP mailbox, and your connection timed out. I'd say reduce your timeout values ($timeout and $imap_keepalive). ~Kyle - -- He who dares not offend cannot be honest. -- Thomas Paine -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Comment: Thank you for using encryption! iEYEARECAAYFAkjbF30ACgkQBkIOoMqOI146lwCeNW2cfAV0/oR8HY81/KY8tTvg hMwAn2ehvmbPU8Wv2cz4bmrikC578EWA =0p00 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
