AW: [Nagios-users] not able to get the status of some services fr om the remote machine even with net-snmp running

2005-12-07 Thread Thomas . Zimmer
Title: Nachricht



as the 
check-name "check_LOCAL_disk_mail" says, these two are local check. Many checks 
are not able to check a host resp. a service remote via a tcp-connection 
o.sim.

To 
execute such services on a remote machine, you´ll have to use nrpe, nscaor 
ssh (maybe there are more possib.). The service checks you want to exec. hav to 
reside on the remote machine. 

Assuming you have running ssh-services 
(configuring nrpe is a bit more complicated):

# 
command for executing checks via ssh
define 
command 
{ 
command_name 
check_by_ssh 
command_line 
$USER1$/check_by_ssh -H $HOSTADDRESS$ -C "./plugins-dir/$ARG1$ 
$ARG2$" 
}
# the 
remotecheck
define 
service 
{ 
host_namemail
 
service_descriptioncheck_swap_on_mail 
check_command 
check_by_ssh!check_local_disk_mail!optional additional 
params 
max_check_attempts 
5 
normal_check_interval 
5 
retry_check_interval 
3 
check_period  
nonworkhours 
notification_interval 
30 
notification_period 
nonworkhours 
notification_options 
w,c,r 
contact_groups  
linux-admins 
}

This 
should work. NRPE function in a similar way; but on the remote host a daemon is 
running, and the checks that may be executed on the remote host are configured 
on the remote host.

NSCA 
inverts the direction of getting check results; you´ll have to compile a "small 
nagios", configure all checks for the machine locally, and then you can pass all 
results as "passive chak results" via the "send_nsca" plugin to your central 
nagios-server.

I 
think the nrpealternative has greater performance as executing checks via 
ssh, but you lose the ability of fully central configuration. i never used nsca 
myself.

Greetz,
Thomas Zimmer 
Produktservice  
Betrieb Betrieb  
Support Sal. Oppenheim 
jr.  Cie., Frankfurt a. Main 
Internet: http://www.oppenheim.de 
E-Mail: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

  
  -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-Von: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von ankush 
  groverGesendet: Mittwoch, 7. Dezember 2005 08:56An: 
  nagios-users@lists.sourceforge.netBetreff: [Nagios-users] not able 
  to get the status of some services from the remote machine even with net-snmp 
  runninghey friends,I am not an expert in Nagios.I 
  have configured Nagios to monitor few hosts in my Network.There is one 
  FC3 server on which few services like (mysql,dns,apache,postfix) etc are 
  running on that server.But through nagios I am not able to get the information 
  about the disk  swap status from the remote machine even though snmp 
   snmptrapd services are running on this 
  server.services.cfgdefine service{ 
  host_name  mail 
  service_description swapspacechecking 
  check_command  
  check_swap max_check_attempts 
  5 normal_check_interval 
  5 retry_check_interval 
  3 check_period  
  nonworkhours notification_interval 
  30 notification_period 
  nonworkhours notification_options 
  w,c,r contact_groups 
   linux-admins }define 
  service{ host_name  
  mail service_description 
  disk_checking_mail check_command 
   check_local_disk_mail 
  max_check_attempts 5 
  normal_check_interval 5 
  retry_check_interval 3 
  check_period  
  nonworkhours notification_interval 
  30 notification_period 
  nonworkhours notification_options 
  w,c,r contact_groups 
   linux-admins 
  }checkcommands.cfg filedefine command{ 
  command_name 
  check_local_disk_mail 
  command_line $USER1$/check_disk -w 10% -c 5% -p /var 
  -p /usr -p /home -p / -p /opt }define 
  command{ command_name 
  check_swap command_line 
  $USER1$/check_swap -w 35% -c 15% }In both the 
  above cases the nagios is showing the status for the local machine on which 
  the nagios is running not for the remote machine.But plugins for 
  apache ,local load ,mysql on mail machine are working fine.Does 
  local_disk and check_swap plugins requires some special 
  configuration.Moreover I would like to monitor postfix(mailq) running 
  on the machine.What I have to do to the get status of mailq ?The name 
  of the machine which I am monitoring is mail and the machine name on which 
  nagios is running is cluster1.Please guide me.Thanks  
  RegardsAnkush Grover


Zimmer, Thomas (Produktservices und Betrieb).vcf
Description: Binary data


[Nagios-users] CHecking log files for errors warnings on a remote server

2005-12-07 Thread Sudheer Muddappa

Hi guys,
Is there any plug-in in Nagios to check the tail of logfile for errors 
on a remote machine?

Thanks,

Sudheer 

 




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RE: [Nagios-users] nagios process count increasing

2005-12-07 Thread Morten Bekkelund
We've had the same problems.
Earlier when we used active checks from the topnode in our distributed
system, we had to restart nagios when the number of nagios processes
went too high (or the server would crash). We had a script that
restarted nagios whenever the number got too high.
Lately we reconfigured our solution to using passive host checks and it
solved the problem. Seems the topnode gets too busy with active checks.

A possibility would be to let the leafnodes run the active checks and
then send the results to the topnode via nsca by using performance data.


morten

-Original Message-
From: James S. White [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 7. desember 2005 15:50
To: nagios-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: [Nagios-users] nagios process count increasing

I am running nagios in an distributed environment and when I start
nagios
on the central server I see an increasing number of nagios processes
with
the parent process of init.

$ ps -ef | grep na[g]ios | awk '{if($3==1){print $0}}' | wc -l
   129
$ ps -ef | grep na[g]ios | awk '{if($3==1){print $0}}' | wc -l
141
$ ps -ef | grep na[g]ios | awk '{if($3==1){print $0}}' | wc -l
155

This keeps growing until the server goes down. I just upgraded to 2.0b6
but was seeing this in 2.0b4 as well. The distributed server does not
see this.

Any ideas?

---
James S. White primary/voip: (615) 469-0268
928 Mountain Valley Dr.  .O. mobile: (256) 476-2619
Nashville, TN 37209  ..O   work: (615) 341-8218
http://www.jameswhite.orgOOOwork-mobile: (615) 519-5160
[EMAIL PROTECTED]fax: (866) 260-5465
---
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RE: [Nagios-users] RE: help on AIX 5.2

2005-12-07 Thread Chrietzberg, Aletha
Hey guys,
Here's what I'm getting when I try to run 'make install' 
Any ideas?  

I also don't know why I'm getting what looks to be an extra entry for nagios
on the second install-sh line.  Or is this OK?
-
# make install
cd ./base  make install
.././install-sh -c -m 775 -o nagios -g nagios -d
/usr/local/nagios/bin
#.././install-sh -c -m 774 -o nagios -g nagios nagios
/usr/local/nagios/bin
/usr/bin/strip /usr/local/nagios/bin/nagios
strip: /usr/local/nagios/bin/nagios -- 0654-405 Specify an XCOFF object file
or an archive of
XCOFF object files.
make: 1254-004 The error code from the last command is 255.


Stop.
make: 1254-004 The error code from the last command is 2.


Stop.



Anyone jump in here. I'm not much of a perl programmer either.
Any help with AIX would be greatly appreciated.





-Original Message-
From: Petrucci, Joseph [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 11:38 AM
To: Chrietzberg, Aletha; Kevin Alford; Daniel Jimenez;
nagios-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: RE: [Nagios-users] RE: nrpe ver. 2 on AIX 5.2


Last time I was in an AIX shop, there was a Linux tools for AIX CD that came
with 5.2. load GCC from there then get a source copy of Nagios and try to
compile it. you might have to load on a few more libraries but I do not
think so.



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of
Chrietzberg, Aletha
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 11:31 AM
To: 'Kevin Alford'; Daniel Jimenez; Chrietzberg, Aletha;
nagios-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: RE: [Nagios-users] RE: nrpe ver. 2 on AIX 5.2


I went to the link you gave but I don't see a discussion on installing
Nagios base on AIX 5.2.  I do see the nrpe install but I 
thought you had to
have Nagios running somewhere to use this.  I am an AIX only shop.

Or did I misunderstand/misread something in your answer?





-Original Message-
From: Kevin Alford [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 10:46 AM
To: Daniel Jimenez; Chrietzberg, Aletha;
nagios-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: RE: [Nagios-users] RE: nrpe ver. 2 on AIX 5.2 (Daniel Jimenez)


I used the following link to install mine, and it worked fine.  I am
running AIX 5.2 ML7.

http://www.nagiosexchange.org/nagios-users.34.0.html?tx_mailli
sttofaq_p
i1%5Bmode%5D=1tx_maillisttofaq_pi1%5BshowUid%5D=12441#childUid12708

 


Kevin D. Alford
Manager,
Network and Facility
TMC Technologies, Inc.

a Global Science  Technology Company




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Daniel
Jimenez
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 10:45 AM
To: Chrietzberg, Aletha; nagios-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: RE: [Nagios-users] RE: nrpe ver. 2 on AIX 5.2 (Daniel Jimenez)

I'm actually not installing Nagios, but just NRPE and the plugins. I'm
having problems with the most important plugin for my specific
environment, which is check_disk. I'm sticking to Linux for my Nagios
Core install. 

-Original Message-
From: Chrietzberg, Aletha [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 8:27 AM
To: 'nagios-users@lists.sourceforge.net'
Subject: [Nagios-users] RE: nrpe ver. 2 on AIX 5.2 (Daniel Jimenez)

Daniel,
I have been trying to get nagios installed on AIX 5.2 for some time but
to no avail.  Is there anything you can pass along that may help me?
Did you have to install any extra AIX PTFs?   I have Perl, gdlib, zlib,
gcc
and libpng installed.   But where I'm getting into trouble is in the
running
of make on the main Nagios makefile.One of the errors is in regards
to
gcc warnings on a bunch of undeclared identifiers.  
 
I have been battling this for a while but can find no one that can help
me.
I pick it up and put it down.   I am still running the old Netsaint and
have
been hanging on to that so I can have something.  

I promise not to take up too much of your time.   I just want 
to get the
base running. I can handle the plugins.
Any help would be greatly appreciated. 



Never let the fear of striking out get in your way.
Babe Ruth


Aletha D Chrietzberg
ISD -  AIX Tech Services
UNC Healthcare
(919) 966-4888





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[Nagios-users] Re: Nagios HANGS scheduling info

2005-12-07 Thread Mark Plaksin
Marco Ramos [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Try to tune your service_reaper_frequency and max_concurrent_checks
 values. Take a look at http://nagios.org/faqs/viewfaq.php?faq_id=115.

Thanks for the pointer!

 Had the same problem a while ago and managed to solve it tunning this
 two options.

What happens when you have the potential for 1000 checks in a minute?  The
math in that FAQ says you should set service_reaper_frequency to 0.50 but
Nagios (2.04b) only allows integers = 1.

Looking at our Performance Info page, most of the time 2-300 were
executed in the past minute but sometimes it's nearly 1000.



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[Nagios-users] Event Handler

2005-12-07 Thread Beswick, Stuart
I'm looking to setup an event handler to disable active checks when it first 
becomes critical.  The reason I am doing this is because I a running a 
check_log, and it will go critical for only one check then go back to good.

Anyone know how to do this?  I would need the Check Command I would assume.

Thanks,
Stuart



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[Nagios-users] RE: Nagios/Plugins on AIX 5.2 - reply

2005-12-07 Thread Chrietzberg, Aletha
Hey Chuck,
Yes, I'm still having trouble.
That would be awesome if you have any notes.  I'll take anything I can get
my hands on at this point.  I'm trying to install the Nagios and the
plugins.

Which version of Nagios did you install?   1.2 or 2.0b4?  
Just send me whatever you can.

Thanks.

Never let the fear of striking out get in your way.
Babe Ruth


Aletha D Chrietzberg
UNC Healthcare
ISD -  AIX Tech Services
(919) 966-4888



-Original Message-
From: Charles Dee Rice [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 3:10 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Nagios/Plugins on AIX 5.2



Hi, this is Chuck in Apache Junction, AZ.  I saw a recent post you sent to
the nagios-users mailing list concerning having some trouble building nagios
on AIX 5.2.

I have nagios, nagios-plugins, nrpe and ncsa all built on AIX 5.2 ML04 with
detailed notes and build logs -- I'd be happy to send them to you if you're
still having trouble.

Drop me a note or give me a call at 480-235-8069 if you want.

- Chuck






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Re: [Nagios-users] contactgroup{ }, and contactgroups # bug?

2005-12-07 Thread Cam
On 12/5/05, Hugo van der Kooij [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 If it is not required for the hostgroup then THAT is the bug. Unfortunatly
 I can not find a bug tracking tool on the Nagios site.

That is Absolutely not a bug.  It's a documentation bug, if anything.
The 'members' line should *not* be required (when members are defined
elsewhere).

Cameron Matheson


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[Nagios-users] delayed critical alerts

2005-12-07 Thread Emanuel Beunder

Hello,

I've been looking a bit trough the archives of the mailinglist, but 
supprisingly enough, I didn't find the anwer to my question.
The company I work for uses Nagios 1.2 for monitoring everything and 
all, something me and my manager are very proud off (I really love this 
framework).


But I just have an big problem (and some small ones): on some services 
we have enabled sending a warning by SMS when this service fails.
But unfortunatly my cellphone is pretty loud and on one night when 
things really went wrong, I was woken up 10 times during the night (to 
sleepy to realize to turn it off), while I really needed the sleep to 
face the problems the next day. So I disabled notifying during 11pm and 
7am on my hostgroup.
I also enlarged the time window of the notification intervals, because 
after our local DNS broke down on a bank holiday (when I was on holiday 
too) and received hundreds of SMSes..
But now I also don't get any warning anymore when something broke down 
during the night. And since I am not an early bird, I'd like to know 
when I really need to go to my work early when the S hits the fan (or to 
log in by VPN and fix the issue).
So basically my question is: how do I delay a notification to a 
hostgroup until the notification time window for this group begins?
(because I do like having 24x7 statistics for my services, I don't like 
to change the monitor window to the notification window).

Thanks in advance for your answers!

Cheers,
Emanuel

--
In a world without walls and fences, who needs Windows or Gates?



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[Nagios-users] help please. browser problem.

2005-12-07 Thread Mehmet Fatih AKBULUT
hi all.
i use latest versions of mozilla and firefox.
but getting the error below:

!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//ENHTMLHEADMETA NAME=ROBOTS CONTENT=NOINDEX, NOFOLLOWTITLENagios/TITLE
/HEADFRAMESET BORDER=0 FRAMEBORDER=0 FRAMESPACING=0 COLS=180,*FRAME SRC="" NAME=side TARGET=main
FRAME SRC="" NAME=main/FRAMESETNOFRAMES!-- This page requires a web browser which supports frames. -- pcenterh2Nagios/h2
a href="" href="http://www.nagios.org">http://www.nagios.org alt=Nagios Homewww.nagios.org/abrCopyright (c) 1999-2001 Ethan A. Galstadbr
/center/ppiNote: These pages require a browser which supports frames/i/p/NOFRAMES/HTML
on a different it works fine on firefox and mozilla on even konqueror.but why not works on the one at home ?help please ...



[Nagios-users] Strange contact group behavior in 2.0b3

2005-12-07 Thread Benjamin Rutter

I'm running Nagios v2.0b3 and have a strange problem with contact groups

Here is a breakdown of the issues:

- I create 2 contacts, one called 'brutter' and another 'tward'
- I then create a contact group called 'TRMStaff' and add both users
- Any service I set the contact group of 'TRMStaff' to works flawlessly
- Any host I set the contact group of 'TRMStaff' to works flawlessly

So at this point, all is well...then the strange part

- I create a new contact called 'lgroup'
- I then create a contact group called 'LG' and add the 'lgroup' user
- Any service I set the contact group of 'LG' to works fine AS LONG AS the
HOST of that service is set to 'TRMStaff' as the contact group.


If I have a host with contact group 'TRMStaff' and a service of that host
with contact group 'LG', everything works as it should.

As soon as I change the contact group on the host to 'LG', that host
disappears from the list of hosts in the GUI and alerts are not generated
for the hosts OR the services related to that host.

I have tried creating multiple groups with all sorts of different names and
assigning different users to no avail

I need to be able to have the 'LG' contact group assigned to both HOSTS and
it's corresponding services.

I have checked the syntax up and down a hundred times and everything seems
to be on point. Is there anything illegal in the group or contact names that
I've chosen?

Any suggestions out there??? This is killing me... 
 




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Re: [Nagios-users] Strange contact group behavior in 2.0b3

2005-12-07 Thread Todd Barbera
Maybe you should try upgrading to 2.0b6. The change log shows one fix for
hostgroups, but it didn't sound like an exact fit. At least you'll have the
latest fixes even if the problem persists and you'll be able to eliminate
the possibility that your issue may have been addressed in a newer release.

Todd

- Original Message - 
From: Benjamin Rutter [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: nagios-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 6:58 PM
Subject: [Nagios-users] Strange contact group behavior in 2.0b3



I'm running Nagios v2.0b3 and have a strange problem with contact groups

Here is a breakdown of the issues:

- I create 2 contacts, one called 'brutter' and another 'tward'
- I then create a contact group called 'TRMStaff' and add both users
- Any service I set the contact group of 'TRMStaff' to works flawlessly
- Any host I set the contact group of 'TRMStaff' to works flawlessly

So at this point, all is well...then the strange part

- I create a new contact called 'lgroup'
- I then create a contact group called 'LG' and add the 'lgroup' user
- Any service I set the contact group of 'LG' to works fine AS LONG AS the
HOST of that service is set to 'TRMStaff' as the contact group.


If I have a host with contact group 'TRMStaff' and a service of that host
with contact group 'LG', everything works as it should.

As soon as I change the contact group on the host to 'LG', that host
disappears from the list of hosts in the GUI and alerts are not generated
for the hosts OR the services related to that host.

I have tried creating multiple groups with all sorts of different names and
assigning different users to no avail

I need to be able to have the 'LG' contact group assigned to both HOSTS and
it's corresponding services.

I have checked the syntax up and down a hundred times and everything seems
to be on point. Is there anything illegal in the group or contact names that
I've chosen?

Any suggestions out there??? This is killing me...





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[Nagios-users] No Luck with Apache and Nagios

2005-12-07 Thread Eric X. Holzapfel
Title: No Luck with Apache and Nagios







_




Hello List,

I am trying to run Nagios 2.0b5 on RH Fedora 4 with apache 2.0.54

I can start nagios ok, and both the v, -s, and status report ok. The nagios.log file reports startup and monitoring info ok.

The problem is with apache. I am completely unable to use apache. If I try to put these lines in my httpd.conf file, apache errors with a warning, that the alias wont work because there is an earlier alias and script alias, etc.

ScriptAlias /nagios/cgi-bin/ /usr/local/nagios/sbin/

Directory /usr/local/nagios/sbin/

 AllowOverride AuthConfig

 Options ExecCGI

 Order allow,deny

 Allow from all

/Directory

And 

Alias /nagios/ /usr/local/nagios/share/

Directory /usr/local/nagios/share

 Options None

 AllowOverride AuthConfig

 Order allow,deny

 Allow from all

/Directory

Any ideas?

When I try to go to http://localhost/nagios I get page not found, etc

Thanks,

eric








Re: [Nagios-users] No Luck with Apache and Nagios

2005-12-07 Thread Todd Barbera
Title: No Luck with Apache and Nagios



Did you try compiling Apache from source? If not, 
give that a shot. You might be tripping up on an older config. Also, you could 
try the default config files if they are still there. httpd-std.conf would be 
the file name. Start Apache with just the default config file just to make sure 
it starts and then add your changes. 

Todd

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Eric X. 
  Holzapfel 
  To: Nagios-users@lists.sourceforge.net 
  
  Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 8:04 
  PM
  Subject: [Nagios-users] No Luck with 
  Apache and Nagios
  
  _
  Hello 
  List,
  I am trying to run 
  Nagios 2.0b5 on RH Fedora 4 with apache 2.0.54
  I can start nagios ok, 
  and both the –v, -s, and status report ok. The nagios.log file reports 
  startup and monitoring info ok.
  The problem is with 
  apache. I am completely unable to use apache. If I try to put 
  these lines in my httpd.conf file, apache errors with a warning, that the 
  alias won’t work because there is an earlier alias and script alias, 
  etc.
  ScriptAlias /nagios/cgi-bin/ 
  /usr/local/nagios/sbin/
  Directory "/usr/local/nagios/sbin/"
   AllowOverride AuthConfig
   Options ExecCGI
   Order allow,deny
   Allow from all
  /Directory
  And 
  Alias /nagios/ /usr/local/nagios/share/
  Directory "/usr/local/nagios/share"
   Options None
   AllowOverride AuthConfig
   Order allow,deny
   Allow from all
  /Directory
  Any ideas?
  When I try to go to http://localhost/nagios I get page not found, 
  etc
  Thanks,
  eric


RE: [Nagios-users] No Luck with Apache and Nagios

2005-12-07 Thread Adam Emery
Title: No Luck with Apache and Nagios









You
might want to look for an include statement in your
httpd.conf. you probably have a nagios.conf that is already being loaded.



-Original Message-
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Eric X. Holzapfel
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005
7:05 PM
To:
Nagios-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: [Nagios-users] No Luck
with Apache and Nagios





_



Hello List,

I am trying to run Nagios 2.0b5 on RH Fedora 4 with
apache 2.0.54

I can start nagios ok, and both the v, -s, and
status report ok. The nagios.log file reports startup and monitoring info
ok.

The problem is with apache. I am completely
unable to use apache. If I try to put these lines in my httpd.conf file,
apache errors with a warning, that the alias wont work because there is
an earlier alias and script alias, etc.

ScriptAlias
/nagios/cgi-bin/ /usr/local/nagios/sbin/

Directory
/usr/local/nagios/sbin/


AllowOverride AuthConfig


Options ExecCGI


Order allow,deny


Allow from all

/Directory

And


Alias
/nagios/ /usr/local/nagios/share/

Directory
/usr/local/nagios/share


Options None


AllowOverride AuthConfig


Order allow,deny


Allow from all

/Directory

Any
ideas?

When
I try to go to http://localhost/nagios I get page not found, etc

Thanks,

eric













Re: [Nagios-users] help please. browser problem.

2005-12-07 Thread Hugo van der Kooij
On Wed, 7 Dec 2005, Mehmet Fatih AKBULUT wrote:

 on a different it works fine on firefox and mozilla on even konqueror.
 but why not works on the one at home ?

If it works on nearly every spot but one then you should look for browser
problems. Nothing Nagios can do about is bad browsers.

Hugo.

PS: That was NOT an error. Just the source of a webpage.

-- 
I hate duplicates. Just reply to the relevant mailinglist.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://hvdkooij.xs4all.nl/
Don't meddle in the affairs of magicians,
for they are subtle and quick to anger.


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Re: [Nagios-users] No Luck with Apache and Nagios

2005-12-07 Thread Hugo van der Kooij
On Wed, 7 Dec 2005, Eric X. Holzapfel wrote:

 The problem is with apache.  I am completely unable to use apache.  If I
 try to put these lines in my httpd.conf file, apache errors with a
 warning, that the alias won't work because there is an earlier alias and
 script alias, etc.

If you use the RPM files you allready have a nagios.conf file in you
conf.d directory and you should NOT add them again to your config.

Remove all the new lines and restart the server. Then try again. Check you
apache config tree for extra files.

Hugo.

-- 
I hate duplicates. Just reply to the relevant mailinglist.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://hvdkooij.xs4all.nl/
Don't meddle in the affairs of magicians,
for they are subtle and quick to anger.


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