Kremen's Buddy?
Chris Jester, the owner of hosting service provider Split Infinity, has been working with Kremen in trying to locate Cohen, whom Jester says is currently in Tijuana. http://www.avnonline.com/index.php?Primary_Navigation=Web_Exclusive_NewsAction=Print_ArticleContent_ID=242417 ---in case anyone has not googled mr. chris jester, please realize he is a buddy of gary kremen and is just looking to stir up dirt. IANAL, and neither are 99.9% of the rest of us here, so let's leave this to the lawyers and get back to discussing something like network operations. Michele _ Windows Live Spaces is here! Its easy to create your own personal Web site. http://spaces.live.com/signup.aspx
Re: [Fwd: RE: Kremen VS Arin Antitrust Lawsuit - Anyone have feedback?]
The reason that ARIN allocations are not property is that pre-ARIN allocations were not property. ARIN is merely continuing the former process with more structure and public oversight. Are telephone numbers property? IP addresses appear to be property - - read http://news.findlaw.com/ hdocs/docs/cyberlaw/kremencohen72503opn.pdf. Given that domain names are property, IP addresses should be property, especially in California where are constitution states All things of value are property 1. I searched that PDF and it says nothing whatsoever about IP addresses, therefore your statement above is not true. 2. The court didn't just say that domain names are property like anything else, he said that some of the laws regarding property apply to domain names. But others do not. 3. Domain names are delegated to people who pay money to register a domain name for their exclusive use forever as long as they maintain their renewal payments. 4. IP addresses are assigned to organizations who have a JUSTIFIED technical requirement for those addresses in their network. Most addresses can only be used as long as they remain connected to the same upstream network. PI addresses can only be used as long as they are technically justified. If an organization sells their network or shuts it down, then they can no longer keep their IP addresses and there are hundreds of cases where those addresses have gone back to ARIN to be allocated to other networks. Why is it that they involve lawyers, ask you all your customers names and etc... This is more information than I think they should be requiring. Any company that wishes to engage in business as an ISP or provider in some capacity should be granted the right to their own ip space Look at this page: http://www.arin.net/cgi-bin/member_list.pl Every one of those organizations has disclosed to ARIN all their customer names, etc... That is the way things are done. If you don't want to play ball like the rest of us, then you are not going to get IP addresses. That's the simple truth. We have a level playing field and you are asking for special privileges that other organizations don't feel are necessary. --Michael Dillon
Commodity (was RE: [Fwd: Kremen ...])
You make an incorrect assumption - that IP addresses are currently free (they are not, in either money or time) and that commoditizing them will increase their cost (there is significant evidence it will not). You seem to think that commoditizing IP addresses will reduce their cost. Commoditization is changing an illiquid resource into a liquid resource, i.e. one that can readily be converted to cash in an open market. Since IP addresses are tightly tied to the network architecture, how can they ever be liquid? If they cannot become liquid then they can never be a commodity in the first place. For example, let's compare gold and uranium. Both metals are very valuable. Gold can be bought and sold at any time on an open market. It is a commodity. But uranium is not as liquid. There are few buyers and sellers. Trades happen too infrequently to establish an open market. There are restrictions on posession and transport of the material. In the end, uranium is not a commodity and is not liquid. IP adresses are more like uranium than gold. --Michael Dillon
Re: Commodity (was RE: [Fwd: Kremen ...])
Michael, On Sep 12, 2006, at 2:11 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since IP addresses are tightly tied to the network architecture, how can they ever be liquid? How are PI addresses tightly tied to network architecture? Rgds, -drc
Re: [Fwd: RE: Kremen VS Arin Antitrust Lawsuit - Anyone have feedback?]
IMHNLO ( In My Humble Non Legal Opinion)** IP Addresses were created by UC, BBN, ATT for/under the US Government. They were managed and controlled by the Gov first with DARPA and then Commerce etc until the management was deeded to ARIN. The original Internet was going to be destroyed by commercial interest according to the academics and it was to all of our relief. aka we now have jobs working with it. When you request IP addresses for the RIRs you are "leasing" them from the RIR. The same as it you lease a house or car. If you stop paying the lease the Sheriff comes and takes the property back if you do not give it back. Names in DNS can be "owned" as far as we know. This means that the party in this lawsuit should have used DNS as I indicated in an earlier e-mail and not naked IP addresses directly. This is basic contract law at least in Georgia that if the paperwork is written where you can assume the lease or you have to generate a new lease. It is my understanding that ARIN favors the generation of a new lease for space for good technical reasons. If my company gets bought or buys a company the chances that the combined address space aggregate well in v4 is very small. If there is space available with better aggregation that is the block that ARIN would like to give my company. Since both parties signed the agreement with a non assumable lease provision, even a California court will have a hard time forcing new provisions or new interpretation to an existing signed lease contract. In Georgia the contracts are written so that any change of company ownership, bankruptcy or legal action will terminate the contract and the items would have to be returned to the other party who leased them. If this lease contract had/has so much economic value than the parties should have come to a deal before a final court order to protect that value. John (ISDN) Lee ** In the State of Georgia to espouse a legal opinion is practicing law and unless you have the union papers they can prosecute you for practicing law without a license. Foot Note: Executives at EBS (ENRON Broadband Services), the company that I worked for at the time did not like the ARIN policies and with the help of Enron corporate wanted to buy / take over ARIN and other RIRs so that they could generate a market for IP address blocks and extract greater value for them from the Internet community by setting up an IP trading desk. My boss and I indicated that we did not think that this was a good idea and while management put a project team together of about 20 lawyers to develop the concept they dropped it later because of more pressing legal issues. The moral to this story is that if you do not like ARIN and want to get rid of it, which I do not want to do, what are you going to replace it with and how is that going to work or not work as the case may be. Chris Jester wrote: Even if you assume that allocations made by ARIN are not property, it's hard to argue that pre-ARIN allocations are not. They're not subject to revocation and their grant wasn't conditioned on compliance with policies. The reason that ARIN allocations are not property is that pre-ARIN allocations were not property. ARIN is merely continuing the former process with more structure and public oversight. Are telephone numbers property? In any case, since the conditions of the pre-ARIN allocations were all informal, unrecorded and largely verbal, nobody can prove that there was any kind of irrevocable grant. --Michael Dillon IP addresses appear to be property - - read http://news.findlaw.com/ hdocs/docs/cyberlaw/kremencohen72503opn.pdf. Given that domain names are property, IP addresses should be property, especially in California where are constitution states "All things of value are property" Also, what about ARINS hardcore attitude making it near impossible to aquire ip space, even when you justify it's use? I have had nightmares myself as well as MANY of my collegues share similar experiences. I am having an issue right now with a UNIVERSITY in Mexico tryin to get ip's from the mexican counterpart. Why is it that they involve lawyers, ask you all your customers names and etc... This is more information than I think they should be requiring. Any company that wishes to engage in business as an ISP or provider in some capacity should be granted the right to their own ip space. We cannot trust using ips swipped to us by upstreams and the like. Its just not safe to do that and you lose control. Actually, is there anyone else who shares these nightmares with me? I brought up the lawsuit with Kremen and ARIN to see if this is a common issue. What are your views, and can someone share nightmare stories? Don't get me wrong, I think there has to be SOME due dilligence, however their methodology is a bit hitlerish. If you have had similar problems, contact me off list or on, if you
Re: Commodity (was RE: [Fwd: Kremen ...])
On 12 Sep 2006, at 10:11, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For example, let's compare gold and uranium. Both metals are very valuable. Gold can be bought and sold at any time on an open market. It is a commodity. But uranium is not as liquid. There are few buyers and sellers. Trades happen too infrequently to establish an open market. There are restrictions on posession and transport of the material. In the end, uranium is not a commodity and is not liquid. IP adresses are more like uranium than gold. Erm, Uranium *is* a commodity. Last week's spot price was $52 a pound for U3O8. It's a small market in terms of numbers of players but it's still an open market in the economic sense. 102 million pounds were traded in 2004. Hedge funds are players in the uranium market (source: www.uxc.com, home page) - when people trade something who don't use it I think you've pretty much defined a commodity.
Re: [Fwd: Kremen VS Arin Antitrust Lawsuit - Anyone have feedback?]
On Mon, Sep 11, 2006 at 02:45:58PM -0400, Daniel Golding wrote: Joe makes a good point. Everyone is shouting no one owns IP addresses, but that is proof by assertion. ...as is asserting that marketplace economics work for any and all things. I lean toward low-regulation myself - why would I want any regional governmental entity sticking its fingers into a process that is 100% open to its constituents? If anything, the free market of *ideas* is working quite well for the policy arena, with less up-front cost and complexity. There is a strong argument to be made for ownership of IP addressing and subsequently trading address space as a commodity, with ARIN as a commodity exchange and clearinghouse. Is this reaction people hating lawyers more than ARIN, or what? It is funny for a free-marketeer to go down the road of wanting to create more regulation: financial markets/trading floors are one of the models that require a non-trivial support structure in mechanics, legislation and regulation. Sure all that activity might employ more folks (mostly inside the beltway), but will we be better off in the end? On Mon, Sep 11, 2006 at 02:50:04PM -0400, Daniel Golding wrote: [snip] You make an incorrect assumption - that IP addresses are currently free (they are not, in either money or time) and that commoditizing them will increase their cost (there is significant evidence it will not). Who here is invoking proof by assertion? 'Evidence' implies something concrete. At present, the currency in the above-board IP addressing market are tied to clues rather than dollars. Those with clues (by bothering to read the specs, hiring permanently, or renting them) sail through the process while those without get frustrated. Because some folks with more dollars than clues get frustrated at applying decades-old technology of indirection through DNS labels, why change the infrastructure to let the dollars win over the clues? If they can't read the instructions to unbolt their training wheels should they even be operating infrastructure? I'd suggest that the ARIN public policy and any related flights of armchair-economist musings would be best suited to the ARIN ppml list. ...though I suspect the topic will occupy some of us at dinner tongiht. :-) Cheers, Joe -- RSUC / GweepNet / Spunk / FnB / Usenix / SAGE
Re: [Fwd: RE: Kremen VS Arin Antitrust Lawsuit - Anyone have feedback?]
Look at this page: http://www.arin.net/cgi-bin/member_list.pl Every one of those organizations has disclosed to ARIN all their customer names, etc... That is the way things are done. If you don't want to play ball like the rest of us, then you are not going to get IP addresses. That's the simple truth. We have a level playing field and you are asking for special privileges that other organizations don't feel are necessary. --Michael Dillon Michael, I think you are confusing ARIN membership with ARIN resource recipient. The two are not synonymous although there is a great deal of overlap. An end-user recipient is not necessarily an ARIN member. An ARIN member is not necessarily a recipient. True, all ISP recipients are ARIN members since that is an automatic aspect of their subscriber status, providing much of the overlap, but, not the complete definition. Owen PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Database for customer assignments [WAS Re: Data Center Wiring Standards]
Thanks much for all the info folks. I'm sure I can amalgamate this info into a good plan, or at least a pie-in-the-sky place to reach for. On a related but dissimilar topic: What are people using for storing customer assignment info and stuff? Right now, we've got an Excel spreadsheet covering patch panels, another covering colo customers and the types of usage plans that they're on, and our general customer database that hasn't been updated since the colo biz has picked up, and is thus currently poorly equipped to deal with it. Additionally, we use RTG for usage stuff, and a combination of well-commented DNS zone files and customized Excel spreadsheets for managing IP Space. Needless to say, the integration of these things is pretty non-existent. Are people using off-the-shelf products (freeware or otherwise) for these types of things, or are they custom designing their own? I've recently started to create a proper database that stores patch panel, switchport, customer, VLAN, and usage information, but the queries I'm dealing with in an attempt to extract information from it are so complex that I just can't seem to justify spending the time on this, when -- regardless of the low-techiness of them -- the current method of spreadsheets and such gets by. Eventually though, I'm sure it's the scalability that will be the killer. I've messed briefly with IPTrack (or was that the old name for it?) for IP address management, but nothing else too much. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance, Rick Kunkel On Sat, 9 Sep 2006, Joe Greco wrote: Rick Kunkel [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Can anyone tell me the standard way to deal with patch panels, racks, and switches in a data center used for colocation? Network Cabling Handbook by Chris Clark is a bit dated (5 years old) but probably should be on your bookshelf anyway, particularly since it is ridiculously cheap used/new on Amazon (I got my copy a couple of years ago after a friend tipped me off that they were on sale for $5.99 on clearance at Micro Center). It's mostly geared to the enterprise but it does have a chapter on doing communication rooms which is probably a good starting point. ISBN 0-07-213233-7 Also, no substitute for visiting your competition and taking a survey of how others, particularly larger datacenters, are doing it. :) Having seen so many different things over the years, I don't actually think there's any one particular right way to do it. Is the data center carrier neutral? If so, that tends to lead to solutions where circuits need to be run point-to-point (whether physically or virtually). Are customers expected to be requiring large amounts of bandwidth? If not, aggregation based solutions may make more sense (such as putting a switch in each rack). What's the smallest and largest customer footprint? If you're going to sell 5 racks to a customer, in a shared cage with doors and side panels, and the customer needs multiple gigE connections internally, do you want to try to solve that problem as part of your site strategy, or do you figure it out on a case by case basis? Possible solutions are varied. For a colo where they'll be buying your bandwidth, and nobody's using gigabits of it, for example, there's an excellent manageability argument to be made for running a (single, pair of) gig uplink to each cabinet and having a 24- or 48-port 1U switch in the cabinet. You will have a minimal amount of wiring, which makes problem resolution easier, and you can even do vlan stuff to allow customers with equipment in different cabinets to have virtual private segments. I've seen providers that put a 24-port patch panel in each cab and then ran it back to a central switching point, which is arguably more useful but eats up a lot of wiring, and you have a fundamental problem in that some cabs may be populated with colo'ed 1U's (so you hit the wall or have to add another panel) and others have a single customer with a bunch of goofy equipment, and they just want a link to their own router/firewall, so you only use 1/24th the cable. Facilities like Equinix probably don't have a lot of realistic options other than what they already do, given the sheer complexity of it all. ... JG -- Joe Greco - sol.net Network Services - Milwaukee, WI - http://www.sol.net We call it the 'one bite at the apple' rule. Give me one chance [and] then I won't contact you again. - Direct Marketing Ass'n position on e-mail spam(CNN) With 24 million small businesses in the US alone, that's way too many apples.
Re: Kremen's Buddy?
Chris Jester, the owner of hosting service provider Split Infinity, has been working with Kremen in trying to locate Cohen, whom Jester says is currently in Tijuana. http://www.avnonline.com/index.php?Primary_Navigation=Web_Exclusive_NewsAction=Print_ArticleContent_ID=242417 ---in case anyone has not googled mr. chris jester, please realize he is a buddy of gary kremen and is just looking to stir up dirt. IANAL, and neither are 99.9% of the rest of us here, so let's leave this to the lawyers and get back to discussing something like network operations. Michele Michele, While it would seem I agree with Kremens lawsuit, the pure intention of my posting to nanog is to gain insight into how things work so that I may personally gain a better understanding into the innards of the IP processing system for assignments and likewise. I *do* know Kremen, and I need to state that me knowing him and agreeing with him are two different things entirely. I am not involved in the ARIN BS in any way. I saw his filing against ARIN and found it interesting. I have noted negative points of the IP request process however I also know that ARIN ended up taking good care of me personally, so I dont have much personal issues at this time. It was a difficult process with lots of paperwork, and in the end, I got what I requested. Now that I have said that, let me make it clear, that I have no established pre-determined opinion of ARIN however the suit Kremen filed brought up some serious questions that I wanted to get lots of feedback on because to me it seems that when a business is tied to IP's they should somehow be able to insure that no ill-fate can come to those ip's. Something came up, that I want to share as well Once this subject took off on nanog, I have been oversaturated with people trying to sell me ip space. I have had offers for several /16's for 10,000.00 each that are no longer in use by the companies who own lol them. I want to say to those people that made those offers to me I do not wish to obtain IP space from the grey-market, the only IP space I ever need, I do ask ARIN for and will continue to do so. I appreciate the friendly offers, however the fact is, I have my own IP space assigned to me by ARIN already. So, bascially, thank you but no. Kremens filing just entered my mind and had me thinking about it, and how valid it is. It surely sparked some interest here hasn't it? So then it was worth discussing, IMHO. Should anyone wish to talk, my AIM is below. Cheers. Chris Jester Suavemente, INC. 619-227-8845 AIM: NJesterIII ICQ: 64791506
Re: Kremen's Buddy?
Once this subject took off on nanog, I have been oversaturated with people trying to sell me ip space. I have had offers for several /16's for 10,000.00 each that are no longer in use by the companies who own lol them. I want to say to those people that made those offers to me Here is a very good point of why ip space should not be a property traded on an open market. To me ip space is like a house number or a telephone number. A resource required and useable for a presence on the global internet only. The current process of allocating ip space based on need makes perfect sense. In order to assess the need, certain aspects of a network have to be disclosed to ARIN, that makes perfect sense as well. I'd hate to see an open market place for ip space. The ability to afford ip space based on wealth rather then technical merit makes little sense to me. For those who feel ARIN policy is too restrictive and obtaining PI space it too difficult, perhaps working with ARIN to adjust those policies would be a good place to start. Adi
Re: Database for customer assignments [WAS Re: Data Center Wiring Standards]
In my experience, most folks roll their own IP management software. Most coming from spreadsheets such as yourself, end up with some sort of custom written provisioning software that integrates into their existing applications. I've seen very few commercial products in use, though I can't say whether or not they were any better or worse than the home grown solutions. IIRC, there were two major open source projects, FreeIPDB, and Northstar. Both had some promise for a decent open source IP management suite. As far as Switch Ports/Patch panels, I've not seen anyone keep real good track of usage other than switch port descriptions. --- Andy - Original Message - From: Rick Kunkel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: nanog@merit.edu Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 1:30 PM Subject: Database for customer assignments [WAS Re: Data Center Wiring Standards] Thanks much for all the info folks. I'm sure I can amalgamate this info into a good plan, or at least a pie-in-the-sky place to reach for. On a related but dissimilar topic: What are people using for storing customer assignment info and stuff? Right now, we've got an Excel spreadsheet covering patch panels, another covering colo customers and the types of usage plans that they're on, and our general customer database that hasn't been updated since the colo biz has picked up, and is thus currently poorly equipped to deal with it. Additionally, we use RTG for usage stuff, and a combination of well-commented DNS zone files and customized Excel spreadsheets for managing IP Space. Needless to say, the integration of these things is pretty non-existent. Are people using off-the-shelf products (freeware or otherwise) for these types of things, or are they custom designing their own? I've recently started to create a proper database that stores patch panel, switchport, customer, VLAN, and usage information, but the queries I'm dealing with in an attempt to extract information from it are so complex that I just can't seem to justify spending the time on this, when -- regardless of the low-techiness of them -- the current method of spreadsheets and such gets by. Eventually though, I'm sure it's the scalability that will be the killer. I've messed briefly with IPTrack (or was that the old name for it?) for IP address management, but nothing else too much. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance, Rick Kunkel
RE: Kremen's Buddy?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Once this subject took off on nanog, I have been oversaturated with people trying to sell me ip space. I have had offers for several /16's for 10,000.00 each that are no longer in use by the companies who own lol them. It seems to me that this nicely illustrates a major problem with the current system. Here we have large blocks of IP space that, by their own rules, ARIN should take back. It all sounds nice on paper, but clearly there is a hole in the system whereby ARIN doesn't know and apparently has no way of figuring out that the space is no longer in use. It makes me wonder just how much space like that there is out there artifically increasing IP scarcity. I don't know what the solution is, but the way things currently work it seems like if you can justify a block today, it's yours forever even if you stop actively using it. Maybe allowing for some kind of IP market would cut down on that type of hoarding -- you would at the very least change the type of value those subnets have. Andrew Cruse
RE: Kremen's Buddy?
On Tue, 12 Sep 2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It seems to me that this nicely illustrates a major problem with the current system. Here we have large blocks of IP space that, by their own rules, ARIN should take back. It all sounds nice on paper, but clearly there is a hole in the system whereby ARIN doesn't know and apparently has no way of figuring out that the space is no longer in use. It makes me wonder just how much space like that there is out there artifically increasing IP scarcity. I don't know what the solution is, but the way things currently work it seems like if you can justify a block today, it's yours forever even if you stop actively using it. Maybe allowing for some kind of IP market would cut down on that type of hoarding -- you would at the very least change the type of value those subnets have. Many of those legacy allocations were made before ARIN came into being and IP assignments were doled out by the InterNIC. This was also before IANA/ICANN started allocating /8s to the various RIRs to hand out to organizations in their respective geographic areas. That said I think $RIR's approach has been that they won't push an organization on their legacy blocks. There have been a few cases of organizations willingly turning in their legacy blocks for more appropriately sized ranges in the past. jms
Re: [Fwd: RE: Kremen VS Arin Antitrust Lawsuit - Anyone have feedback?]
Did a bit of looking and found this in relation to the ARIN case.. http://38.96.4.16/order.pdf Chris Jester Suavemente, INC. SplitInfinity Networks 619-227-8845 AIM: NJesterIII ICQ: 64791506
Re: Kremen's Buddy?
Thus spake [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Once this subject took off on nanog, I have been oversaturated with people trying to sell me ip space. I have had offers for several /16's for 10,000.00 each that are no longer in use by the companies who own lol them. It seems to me that this nicely illustrates a major problem with the current system. Here we have large blocks of IP space that, by their own rules, ARIN should take back. It all sounds nice on paper, but clearly there is a hole in the system whereby ARIN doesn't know and apparently has no way of figuring out that the space is no longer in use. It makes me wonder just how much space like that there is out there artifically increasing IP scarcity. I don't know what the solution is, but the way things currently work it seems like if you can justify a block today, it's yours forever even if you stop actively using it. Maybe allowing for some kind of IP market would cut down on that type of hoarding -- you would at the very least change the type of value those subnets have. ARIN's policies allow for grandfathering of allocations/assignments made prior to ARIN's establishment at least in part because they'd be on shaky ground legally trying to revoke them for noncompliance. It's not like those folks would willingly sign an RSA that would immediately result in losing their resources. And the community has, so far, agreed with this because the problem is at least getting no worse; it's manageable to make allowances for a fixed or shrinking number of legacy address space holders. However, I do recall that ISI ran (runs?) a program trying to contact folks who had legacy allocations and see if they were willing to return the parts they didn't need. Bill Manning reported on the progress a few times, and apparently a large number of those orgs either no longer existed or were willing to give back what they didn't need. I think this approach is acceptable to everyone, though I'd like to see more stats on what's been done and a more official sanction for the work. Also, IIRC, folks who have legacy allocations/assignments can't get more until their existing space is up to current standards, so it's not like they're getting a free ride on the old space _and_ getting new space. All we have to complain about are the folks that have so much they'll never need more, and those are relatively few in reality. I'm pretty sure the same situation exists for non-legacy space holders; even if you comply at the time of the request, if you later fall below the standards you're safe -- but you can't get more until you're back up to the standards. All in all, the process is decent, and it has community support. Ideal? No, but nothing ever is when lawyers get involved. S Stephen Sprunk God does not play dice. --Albert Einstein CCIE #3723 God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the K5SSSdice at every possible opportunity. --Stephen Hawking
Re: Kremen's Buddy?
Le 2006-09-12 à 15:10, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit : It makes me wonder just how much space like that there is out there artifically increasing IP scarcity. The fact that there is a lot of space assigned/allocated and not used in any easily observable way is well known to those who track the address exhaustion issue, I think. As an example, see Geoff Huston's IPv4 Address Report at http:// www.potaroo.net/tools/ipv4/. Joe
Re: [Fwd: Kremen VS Arin Antitrust Lawsuit - Anyone have feedback?]
News of this case has been sent here before (by [EMAIL PROTECTED] back in July). Is anything really happening with the case? It's case number 5:06-cv-02554-JW They're still skirmishing about whether this is the right court to file such a suit and stuff like that. Most recent order was on 8/28, latest hearing was I think on Monday. R's, John
RE: Kremen's Buddy?
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Adi Linden Here is a very good point of why ip space should not be a property traded on an open market. To me ip space is like a house number or a telephone number. A resource required and useable for a presence on the global internet only. The current process of allocating ip space based on need makes perfect sense. In order to assess the need, certain aspects of a network have to be disclosed to ARIN, that makes perfect sense as well. I'd hate to see an open market place for ip space. The ability to afford ip space based on wealth rather then technical merit makes little sense to me. From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs could be replaced with From each according to the ARIN fee schedule, to each according to our impossible to decipher allocation templates. Marx would be proud! Centrally managed economic systems seem so wonderful on paper - that's why so many otherwise very smart people have championed the idea. Real world experience, on the other hand, has shown that capitalism is the worst possible method for distributing resources - except for all the other methods, which are even worse. Address trading prevents hording, which we have now. And its not just a little hording, either - Look at Geoff Huston's reports too see how much of the total IPv4 space is wasted. We economically incent people to waste space and not turn it back in. If that IP space was fungible, people would sell it, and more addresses would be available. The sorts of controls we have in place today tend to raise, rather than lower prices - again, history has shown this - they encourage scarcity and hoarding. And, if people have noticed, the Internet is what we use to make money, these days - at least, the folks on this list. My opinion is that ARIN should use some of its not inconsiderable warchest and hire some economists to do some real work on modalities for address distribution (i.e. give some grants). Aside from the practical utility, some real science around this topic would be of great intellectual benefit. - Daniel Golding
ip reclamation was Re: Kremen's Buddy?
- Original Message Follows - From: Joe Abley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Le 2006-09-12 à 15:10, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit : It makes me wonder just how much space like that there is out there artifically increasing IP scarcity. The fact that there is a lot of space assigned/allocated and not used in any easily observable way is well known to those who track the address exhaustion issue, I think. How much, though, is used, but not routed publically? Something that has been brought up from time to time here. It's not easily observable, but allowed. scott
Re: Kremen's Buddy?
Le 2006-09-12 à 17:21, Daniel Golding a écrit : From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs could be replaced with From each according to the ARIN fee schedule, to each according to our impossible to decipher allocation templates. I find the references to alleged, inherent difficulties with the ARIN resource assignment process increasingly tedious. Even if the templates were impossible to decipher, this isn't the forum to discuss them. In my opinion, you do the argument in favour of open trading of addresses as commodities a rank disservice by linking it to this kind of FUD. Joe
Re: [Fwd: Kremen VS Arin Antitrust Lawsuit - Anyone have feedback?]
On Sep 12, 2006, at 2:45 AM, Daniel Golding wrote: What would establish IP addresses as some sort of ARIN-owned and licensed community property? Well, winning a court case like this, or congress passing a law. Korea also has passed a law that any addresses assign to KRNIC become the property of KRNIC. But even passing a law doesn't make it so. IP Addresses have always been treated as a resource of the network since its inception. The fact that lawmakers don't understand or care to understand doesn't change the facts of the case.
Re: ip reclamation was Re: Kremen's Buddy?
On Tue, 12 Sep 2006, Scott Weeks wrote: - Original Message Follows - From: Joe Abley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Le 2006-09-12 à 15:10, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit : It makes me wonder just how much space like that there is out there artifically increasing IP scarcity. The fact that there is a lot of space assigned/allocated and not used in any easily observable way is well known to those who track the address exhaustion issue, I think. How much, though, is used, but not routed publically? --- TOTAL FOR IPV4 BLOCKS: Allocated: 9302367 (/24 blocks) - 63% Not Allocated: 5377697 (/24 blocks) - 37% Currently Routed: 6183529 (/24 blocks) - 42% Not Routed: 8496535 (/24 blocks) - 58% --- Simple math from above: Allocated Not Routed: 3118838 (/24 blocks) - 21% This is from my data available at www.completewhois.com/statistics/ (which is for some reason partially broken right now - has all the correct data but coloring of bars did not happen). The percent calculation does not include class-d and class-e (i.e. only blocks 0/8 - 223/8 are counted). Something that has been brought up from time to time here. It's not easily observable, but allowed. Not easily observable means some ip blocks maybe used but are not adverised in public BGP. This is a bit of an issue with certain part of US Gov. scott -- William Leibzon Elan Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Kremen's Buddy?
On Tue, Sep 12, 2006 at 06:55:11PM -0400, Joe Abley wrote: I find the references to alleged, inherent difficulties with the ARIN resource assignment process increasingly tedious. Even if the templates were impossible to decipher, this isn't the forum to discuss them. In my opinion, you do the argument in favour of open trading of addresses as commodities a rank disservice by linking it to this kind of FUD. Ever notice the only folks happy with the status quo are the few who have already have an intimate knowledge of the ARIN allocation process, and/or have the right political connections to resolve the issues that come up when dealing with them? Try looking at it from an outsider's point of view instead. If you're new to dealing with ARIN, it is not uncommon to find the process is absolutely baffling, frustrating, slow, expensive, and requiring intrusive disclosure just shy of an anal cavity probe. In any kind of free market system, competition would have bitchslapped the current ARIN way of doing things a long, long time ago. Personally I find the single most compelling reason to move to IPv6 to be the removal of any justification for ARIN's continued existance in its current form. Somehow I suspect the only folks who wouldn't welcome this are the ones who benefit from the one thing ARIN is actually good at doing, namely paying for frequent business class travel and accomodations to exotic locations around the world under the pretense of meetings. Hrm guess I had better offer dinner in St Louis is on me for whichever one of my friends on the ARIN travel plan complains about this post first. :) -- Richard A Steenbergen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.e-gerbil.net/ras GPG Key ID: 0xF8B12CBC (7535 7F59 8204 ED1F CC1C 53AF 4C41 5ECA F8B1 2CBC)
Re: Kremen's Buddy?
On Sep 12, 2006, at 4:52 PM, Richard A Steenbergen wrote: On Tue, Sep 12, 2006 at 06:55:11PM -0400, Joe Abley wrote: I find the references to alleged, inherent difficulties with the ARIN resource assignment process increasingly tedious. Even if the templates were impossible to decipher, this isn't the forum to discuss them. In my opinion, you do the argument in favour of open trading of addresses as commodities a rank disservice by linking it to this kind of FUD. Ever notice the only folks happy with the status quo are the few who have already have an intimate knowledge of the ARIN allocation process, and/or have the right political connections to resolve the issues that come up when dealing with them? I'm not sure I completely buy this. However, I guess these days I'm one of the few who already have an intimate knowledge. I do remember being frustrated with the process when I was new to the process and even more so when the process was new. However, I can say that today, the process is much better documented, simpler, and more efficient than it was 10 or even 5 years ago. Try looking at it from an outsider's point of view instead. If you're new to dealing with ARIN, it is not uncommon to find the process is absolutely baffling, frustrating, slow, expensive, and requiring intrusive disclosure just shy of an anal cavity probe. I've had several clients who indeed perceived it this way. However, in each of their cases, I was able to spend a few hours working with them to collect the necessary information, fill out the ARIN template on their behalf, and, obtain address space for them in between 5 and 20 man hours. In terms of elapsed calendar time from initial submission to allocation, it ranged from 4-10 days if you don't count delays induced by my clients not having certain prerequisites in place on time. In any kind of free market system, competition would have bitchslapped the current ARIN way of doing things a long, long time ago. Personally I find the single most compelling reason to move to IPv6 to be the removal of any justification for ARIN's continued existance in its current form. I'm not sure this is true. I think if you compare the ARIN process for getting IP addresses to the FCC process for getting spectrum, ARIN's process is MUCH easier. Care to venture what it takes to get an allocation for a geosynchronous orbital slot? Guaranteed that's quite a bit harder than ARIN's process. Ever try to get your own issuance of phone numbers from NANPA or another telephone number registry? Yeah, that's quite a bit harder than ARIN, too. Can you please point to another registry for globally unique limited numeric addresses which is easier to deal with than ARIN? Somehow I suspect the only folks who wouldn't welcome this are the ones who benefit from the one thing ARIN is actually good at doing, namely paying for frequent business class travel and accomodations to exotic locations around the world under the pretense of meetings. Hrm guess I had better offer dinner in St Louis is on me for whichever one of my friends on the ARIN travel plan complains about this post first. :) while I have not always seen eye-to-eye with ARIN, this comment is flat out unjustified in my opinion. ARIN works very hard to provide an open and transparent governance process. They put significant effort into outreach trying to make the process easier and more accessible to newcomers. They have made significant effort to help people gain access to the addresses they need while still trying to be an effective gatekeeper against unwarranted hoarding or unjustified address acquisition. I'm not on the ARIN travel plan, but, I do find the public policy meetings a useful forum. I think that combined with the PPML, they provide about the best possible process for the evolution of IP policy in the ARIN service region. If you have a better idea, let's hear it. How would you like to see things done? The primary difference between whining and constructive criticism is that constructive criticism includes suggested remedies to the situation. Owen PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: ip reclamation was Re: Kremen's Buddy?
On Tue, 12 Sep 2006, william(at)elan.net wrote: How much, though, is used, but not routed publically? --- TOTAL FOR IPV4 BLOCKS: Allocated: 9302367 (/24 blocks) - 63% Not Allocated: 5377697 (/24 blocks) - 37% Currently Routed: 6183529 (/24 blocks) - 42% Not Routed: 8496535 (/24 blocks) - 58% --- Simple math from above: Allocated Not Routed: 3118838 (/24 blocks) - 21% Not easily observable means some ip blocks maybe used but are not adverised in public BGP. This is a bit of an issue with certain part of US Gov. The larged of these blocks are 6/8, 11/8, 21/8, 22/8, 25/8, 26/8, 28/8, 29/8, 30/8. 51/8, 52/8, 56/8 and I strongly suspect 48/8. This comes to total 851968 /24s; this still leaves 2266870 /24 blocks that includes some smaller used but not advertised and some no-longer-used space. I suspect the total would be around 1/2 of value above, i.e. around 10% of ip space is something that could potentially be reclaimed (that is unless you want to bug us military who have way too much space). -- William Leibzon Elan Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Kremen's Buddy?
Le 2006-09-12 à 19:52, Richard A Steenbergen a écrit : Ever notice the only folks happy with the status quo are the few who have already have an intimate knowledge of the ARIN allocation process, and/or have the right political connections to resolve the issues that come up when dealing with them? No, I haven't noticed that. I have noticed people popping up and saying so long as you supply the documentation that they ask for, it's pretty easy, however, which certainly matches my experience. Try looking at it from an outsider's point of view instead. If you're new to dealing with ARIN, it is not uncommon to find the process is absolutely baffling, frustrating, slow, expensive, and requiring intrusive disclosure just shy of an anal cavity probe. Things that you've never done before can seem difficult. Film at 11. It's confusing to me that there appears to be no shortage of people who are prepared to learn the three hundred ways of doing the same thing with perl, or how to dissect a core dump, or how BGP works, but who at the same time are not interested in reading the ARIN policy manual before making a request for resources. Learning curves abound in every direction. The ARIN process is by far the easiest of those examples to get to grips with from someone who has no prior experience. In any kind of free market system, competition would have bitchslapped the current ARIN way of doing things a long, long time ago. I'm not an economist, and this is not a policy list, so I have nothing to say about that here. Joe
Re: Kremen's Buddy?
On Sep 12, 2006, at 8:46 PM, Joe Abley wrote: In any kind of free market system, competition would have bitchslapped the current ARIN way of doing things a long, long time ago. I'm not an economist, and this is not a policy list, so I have nothing to say about that here. Wrong, on all three counts ;-) You make a living, at least sometimes, making networks do more or better for the same or less. That makes you a practicing/applied economist at least (sorry). Competition in this case could only lead to a race to the bottom, as the RIR processes that (attempt to) guarantee a tight fit between address allocation and actual production requirements give way to highest-bidder / lowest-requirements wins. Such a shift might serve the interests of those whose pockets are deeper than their interest in the long-term viability of the Internet, but only at the expense of the rest of the operator community, and their customers, present and future. TV
Qwest event 70 min ago?
Did anybody see a Qwest event ~70 minutes ago? I'm not a direct customer so they won't talk to me, but we lost connectivity to a number of Qwest-connected sites for about 12 minutes. The data is falling off of the 1hr report, but you can still see it now: http://www.internetpulse.net/ http://www.internetpulse.net/Main.aspx?OriginValue=QwestOriginLevel=1 Thanks! -- Charlie Watts [EMAIL PROTECTED]
friends? you got friends?
Try looking at it from an outsider's point of view instead. If you're new to dealing with ARIN, it is not uncommon to find the process is absolutely baffling, frustrating, slow, expensive, and requiring intrusive disclosure just shy of an anal cavity probe. as is dealing with pretty much any bureaucracy for which you are a novice. (FedWire/CBD anyone? :) In any kind of free market system, competition would have bitchslapped the current ARIN way of doing things a long, long time ago. Personally I find the single most compelling reason to move to IPv6 to be the removal of any justification for ARIN's continued existance in its current form. but its not free-market is it. Somehow I suspect the only folks who wouldn't welcome this are the ones who benefit from the one thing ARIN is actually good at doing, namely paying for frequent business class travel and accomodations to exotic locations around the world under the pretense of meetings. Hrm guess I had better offer dinner in St Louis is on me for whichever one of my friends on the ARIN travel plan complains about this post first. :) while not i'm particularly enamored of the current status quo, it has the distinct advantage of being member-driven. and that means if the members want a change, there is a clear path for that change to occur. and perhaps its my particular POV, but arin members do seem adept at making disruptive changes in general RIR policies. --bill -- Richard A Steenbergen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.e-gerbil.net/ras GPG Key ID: 0xF8B12CBC (7535 7F59 8204 ED1F CC1C 53AF 4C41 5ECA F8B1 2CBC)
Re: Qwest event 70 min ago?
On Tue, 12 Sep 2006, Charlie Watts wrote: Did anybody see a Qwest event ~70 minutes ago? A Qwest customer got me more information - Qwest reported a fiber cut in OK affecting much of their east-west traffic. Of course, that's hearsay twice removed at this point, so take it with a salt lick. -- Charlie Watts [EMAIL PROTECTED]
