Re: Broadband ISPs taxed for generating light energy
A Cisco ZX GBIC produces a max of 4.77 dBm (or less than 4mw). 4mw corresponds to 35 watt hours in one year. .035 kwh per year costs 34.5 cents per year using the average US electricity cost in March 2006 of 9.86 cents/kwh. Since the energy flow could be bidirectional, one of the two parties receives a net benefit of up to 34.5 cents. If a broadband provider offers customers a free gift such as a hat, does this make them into a hat retailer for tax purposes? --Michael Dillon
Re: Broadband ISPs taxed for generating light energy
On Tue, Oct 10, 2006 at 11:36:41AM -0400, Joe Loiacono wrote: Notice the date: October 10. That is the Indian equivalent of our April 1. Ah. Culture clash. Therefore the story can be relegated to the same coop as the IP-carrying pigeons. The sole justification for asking this is to help us all remember this for any further similar postings that might otherwise cause lengthy and weighty discussions on something so lightweight. Why is 10 October their 01 April? Thanks. -- Joe Yao --- This message is not an official statement of OSIS Center policies.
Re: Broadband ISPs taxed for generating light energy
On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 13:57:17 -0400, Joseph S D Yao [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Oct 10, 2006 at 11:36:41AM -0400, Joe Loiacono wrote: Notice the date: October 10. That is the Indian equivalent of our April 1. Ah. Culture clash. Therefore the story can be relegated to the same coop as the IP-carrying pigeons. The sole justification for asking this is to help us all remember this for any further similar postings that might otherwise cause lengthy and weighty discussions on something so lightweight. Why is 10 October their 01 April? It's 10/10, which if viewed as the binary number 1010 is 10 base 10. Surely that has to mean something! (Well, I just made it up, but it sounds goodd) --Steven M. Bellovin, http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb
Re: Broadband ISPs taxed for generating light energy
On Wed, Oct 11, 2006 at 02:16:05PM -0400, Steven M. Bellovin wrote: ... It's 10/10, which if viewed as the binary number 1010 is 10 base 10. Surely that has to mean something! (Well, I just made it up, but it sounds goodd) ... Steve, think about it. For all base N, N 1, 10 base 10 is 10. 10/10 [I did notice that] is also [when distributed] half of 20/20, so perhaps half-sighted, or half-sensical. But now we are well and truly OT and may be stoned with virtual rocks. -- Joe Yao --- This message is not an official statement of OSIS Center policies.
Re: Broadband ISPs taxed for generating light energy
On Wed, Oct 11, 2006 at 11:36:03AM -0700, Gregory Hicks wrote: ... My wife (Korean) tole me yesterday that the past weekend was Chusok (or Korean 'Thanksgiving' - Actually, the Harvest Festival)... So maybe India has something similar...? ... But why would the Harvest Festival be the Trickster Day? And next I expect to see a made-up etymology why Korean Chusok is so like Hebrew Succoth. -- Joe Yao --- This message is not an official statement of OSIS Center policies.
Re: Broadband ISPs taxed for generating light energy
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 14:16:05 -0400 From: Steven M. Bellovin [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 13:57:17 -0400, Joseph S D Yao [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Oct 10, 2006 at 11:36:41AM -0400, Joe Loiacono wrote: Notice the date: October 10. That is the Indian equivalent of our April 1. Ah. Culture clash. Therefore the story can be relegated to the same coop as the IP-carrying pigeons. The sole justification for asking this is to help us all remember this for any further similar postings that might otherwise cause lengthy and weighty discussions on something so lightweight. Why is 10 October their 01 April? It's 10/10, which if viewed as the binary number 1010 is 10 base 10. Surely that has to mean something! (Well, I just made it up, but it sounds goodd) My wife (Korean) tole me yesterday that the past weekend was Chusok (or Korean 'Thanksgiving' - Actually, the Harvest Festival)... So maybe India has something similar...? --Steven M. Bellovin, http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb - Gregory Hicks | Principal Systems Engineer Cadence Design Systems | Direct: 408.576.3609 555 River Oaks Pkwy M/S 9B1 San Jose, CA 95134 I am perfectly capable of learning from my mistakes. I will surely learn a great deal today. A democracy is a sheep and two wolves deciding on what to have for lunch. Freedom is a well armed sheep contesting the results of the decision. - Benjamin Franklin The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed. --Alexander Hamilton
Re: Broadband ISPs taxed for generating light energy
Joseph S D Yao wrote: On Wed, Oct 11, 2006 at 11:36:03AM -0700, Gregory Hicks wrote: ... My wife (Korean) tole me yesterday that the past weekend was Chusok (or Korean 'Thanksgiving' - Actually, the Harvest Festival)... So maybe India has something similar...? ... But why would the Harvest Festival be the Trickster Day? And next I expect to see a made-up etymology why Korean Chusok is so like Hebrew Succoth. You don't remember the Korean general on M*A*S*H toasting with L'chaim? ...as we swerve ever further off topic. -- Jeff Shultz
Re: Broadband ISPs taxed for generating light energy
Notice the date: October 10. That is the Indian equivalent of our April 1. According to http://www.april-fools.us/history-april-fools.htm, the Indian equivalent of April fools day is the Huli festival on March 31. jaap
Re: Broadband ISPs taxed for generating light energy
On 10/11/06, Joseph S D Yao [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why is 10 October their 01 April? Looks like you got october-fooled, Mr.Yao :) 10 October is just a date like any other .. those of us in India who want to play tricks on our friends stick to 4/1 like everybody else -- Suresh Ramasubramanian ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Broadband ISPs taxed for generating light energy
.. because they provide internet over fiber optic cables, which work by sending pulses of light down the cable to push packets .. http://www.hindu.com/2006/10/10/stories/2006101012450400.htm So they get slapped with tax + penalties of INR 241.8 million. Broadband providers accused of tax evasion Special Correspondent Commercial Tax Department serves notice on Airtel # Firms accused of evading tax on sale of `light energy' # Loss to State exchequer estimated at Rs. 1,200 crore Bangalore: The Commercial Tax Department has served a notice on Airtel, owned by Bharti Televentures Ltd., seeking payment of Rs. 24.18 crore as tax, interest and penalty for the sale of `light energy' to its customers for providing broadband through optical fibre cables (OFC). The department has been investigating alleged tax evasion by OFC broadband providers, both in the public and private sectors, for selling light energy to customers. While the assessment on Airtel was completed and a notice issued to it for alleged tax evasion during the year 2005-06, no assessment has been concluded on other OFC broadband providers, A.K. Chitaguppi, Deputy Commissioner of Commercial Taxes, said. Other OFC broadband providers facing tax evasion charges are public sector BSNL and private sector VSNL, Reliance, Tata Teleservices and Sify. The Commercial Tax Department has estimated a loss of Rs. 1,200 crore to the State exchequer in this regard since OFC broadband providers have been operating in the State for several years. Mr. Chitaguppi said that OFC operates on light energy, which is artificially created by the OFC providers and sold to customers for the purpose of data transmission and information, on the OFC broadband line. Without such energy, data or information cannot be transmitted. Whoever sells light energy is liable to pay VAT as it comes under the category of goods, and hence its sale constitutes taxable turnover attracting VAT at 12.5 per cent, he said. Bharti Televentures had approached the Karnataka High Court seeking to quash the demand notice, but failed to get a stay when the case was heard by Justice Shantanu Goudar on September 1. The judge rejected Bharti's plea seeking issue of an injunction against any initiatives from the Commercial Tax Department on the recovery of the tax. Bharti Televentures had contended in the High Court that re-assessment orders passed by State tax officials and the issue of demand notice was not valid as the disputed activity fell under the provision of service tax levied by the Union Government and did not attract VAT. The High Court is expected to take up the case for hearing again in the next few days. `Business venture' The Commercial Tax Department has argued that the OFC broadband operators are running a business venture after investing thousands of crores to put in place a state-of-the-art set-up to artificially generate light energy and supply it to its customers for their data transmission work. The characteristics of the light energy constitute a moveable property, which has to be categorised as `goods' as per the norms laid down by the Supreme Court. In the process of data transmission, other than light energy, no other elements are involved and the customers are paying for the same. This proves that light energy constitutes goods, which is liable for levy of tax. Therefore, the State has every legal competence and jurisdiction to tax it, the department has contended. It has taken serious note of the non-payment of taxes by the broadband service providers. Reporting a turnover and then claiming exemption is one thing. But some of the OFC operators don't even report their turnovers, Mr. Chitaguppi alleged.
Re: Broadband ISPs taxed for generating light energy
Is it April 1st already? :-) - ferg -- Suresh Ramasubramanian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: .. because they provide internet over fiber optic cables, which work by sending pulses of light down the cable to push packets .. http://www.hindu.com/2006/10/10/stories/2006101012450400.htm So they get slapped with tax + penalties of INR 241.8 million. [snip] -- Fergie, a.k.a. Paul Ferguson Engineering Architecture for the Internet fergdawg(at)netzero.net ferg's tech blog: http://fergdawg.blogspot.com/
Re: Broadband ISPs taxed for generating light energy
In the process of data transmission, other than light energy, no other elements are involved and the customers are paying for the same. This proves that light energy constitutes goods, which is liable for levy of tax. Therefore, the State has every legal competence and jurisdiction to tax it, the department has contended. Sounds reasonable to me. Since the sale of energy is usually measured in kilowatt-hours, how many kwh of energy is transmitted across the average optical fibre before it reaches the powereda mplifier in the destination switch/router? I'd like to see some hard numbers on this. The light shining down optical fibres is laser light. There exist medical devices which are powered by laser light shining through the tissues. There are also some types of satellite devices which can receive power from ground-based laser beams. The crux of this issue is the actual measurement of power transmitted which will turn out to be very small. --Michael Dillon
Re: Broadband ISPs taxed for generating light energy
On Tue Oct 10, 2006 at 02:40:25PM +, Fergie wrote: Is it April 1st already? :-) Their reasoning is certainly barmy, but some dark-fibre customers in the UK get charged business property taxes on the fibre. Simon -- Simon Lockhart | * Sun Server Colocation * ADSL * Domain Registration * Director|* Domain Web Hosting * Internet Consultancy * Bogons Ltd | * http://www.bogons.net/ * Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *
Re: Broadband ISPs taxed for generating light energy
On 10/10/06, Fergie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is it April 1st already? :-) - ferg Sadly, I dont think taxmen ever had a sense of humor
Re: Broadband ISPs taxed for generating light energy
Sounds reasonable to me. Since the sale of energy is usually measured in kilowatt-hours, how many kwh of energy is transmitted across the average optical fibre before it reaches the powereda mplifier in the destination switch/router? Also, remember, it's _net_ energy delivered which matters... I'm sure the customer is delivering light back toward the ISP as well. -Bill
RE: Broadband ISPs taxed for generating light energy
But they clearly have too much time on their hands. Whodathunkit? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Suresh Ramasubramanian Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 10:51 AM To: Fergie Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Broadband ISPs taxed for generating light energy On 10/10/06, Fergie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is it April 1st already? :-) - ferg Sadly, I dont think taxmen ever had a sense of humor
Re: Broadband ISPs taxed for generating light energy
Nothing new, we had a form of this long ago http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Window_tax Charging per fibre/mile is much the same brandon
Re: Broadband ISPs taxed for generating light energy
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: .. Sounds reasonable to me. Since the sale of energy is usually measured in kilowatt-hours, how many kwh of energy is transmitted across the average optical fibre before it reaches the powereda mplifier in the destination switch/router? I'd like to see some hard numbers on this. The light shining down optical fibres is laser light. There exist medical devices which are powered by laser light shining through the tissues. There are also some types of satellite devices which can receive power from ground-based laser beams. The crux of this issue is the actual measurement of power transmitted which will turn out to be very small. --Michael Dillon A Cisco ZX GBIC produces a max of 4.77 dBm (or less than 4mw). 4mw corresponds to 35 watt hours in one year. However, since the customer must beam back light as part of the exchange then you must track the number of pulses in both directions and determine the difference. Some days the customer gets more energy and some days it doesn't. That should affect the tax.
Re: Broadband ISPs taxed for generating light energy
Reasonable? I think you mean justifiable. On 10/10/06, Bill Woodcock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sounds reasonable to me. Since the sale of energy is usually measured in kilowatt-hours, how many kwh of energy is transmitted across the average optical fibre before it reaches the powereda mplifier in the destination switch/router? Also, remember, it's _net_ energy delivered which matters... I'm sure the customer is delivering light back toward the ISP as well. -Bill
Re: Broadband ISPs taxed for generating light energy
Notice the date: October 10. That is the Indian equivalent of our April 1. Joe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 10/10/2006 10:28:13 AM: .. because they provide internet over fiber optic cables, which workby sending pulses of light down the cable to push packets .. http://www.hindu.com/2006/10/10/stories/2006101012450400.htm So they get slapped with tax + penalties of INR 241.8 million. Broadband providers accused of tax evasion Special Correspondent Commercial Tax Department serves notice on Airtel # Firms accused of evading tax on sale of `light energy' # Loss to State exchequer estimated at Rs. 1,200 crore Bangalore: The Commercial Tax Department has served a notice on Airtel, owned by Bharti Televentures Ltd., seeking payment of Rs. 24.18 crore as tax, interest and penalty for the sale of `light energy' to its customers for providing broadband through optical fibre cables (OFC). The department has been investigating alleged tax evasion by OFC broadband providers, both in the public and private sectors, for selling lightenergy to customers. While the assessment on Airtel was completed and a notice issued to it for alleged tax evasion during the year 2005-06, no assessment has been concluded on other OFC broadband providers, A.K. Chitaguppi, Deputy Commissioner of Commercial Taxes, said. Other OFC broadband providers facing tax evasion charges are public sector BSNL and private sector VSNL, Reliance, Tata Teleservices and Sify. The Commercial Tax Department has estimated a loss of Rs. 1,200 crore to the State exchequer in this regard since OFC broadband providers have been operating in the State for several years. Mr. Chitaguppi said that OFC operates on light energy, which is artificially created by the OFC providers and sold to customers for the purpose of data transmission and information, on the OFC broadband line. Without such energy, data or information cannot be transmitted. Whoever sells light energy is liable to pay VAT as it comes under the category of goods, and hence its sale constitutes taxable turnover attracting VAT at 12.5 per cent, he said. Bharti Televentures had approached the Karnataka High Court seeking to quash the demand notice, but failed to get a stay when the case was heard by Justice Shantanu Goudar on September 1. The judge rejected Bharti's plea seeking issue of an injunction against any initiatives from the Commercial Tax Department on the recovery of the tax. Bharti Televentures had contended in the High Court that re-assessment orders passed by State tax officials and the issue of demand notice was not valid as the disputed activity fell under the provision of service tax levied by the Union Government and did not attract VAT. The High Court is expectedto take up the case for hearing again in the next few days. `Business venture' The Commercial Tax Department has argued that the OFC broadband operators are running a business venture after investing thousands of crores to put in place a state-of-the-art set-up to artificially generate light energy and supply it to its customers for their data transmission work. The characteristics of the light energy constitute a moveable property, which has to be categorised as `goods' as per the norms laid down by the Supreme Court. In the process of data transmission, other than light energy, no other elements are involved and the customers are paying for the same. This proves that light energy constitutes goods, which is liable for levy of tax. Therefore, the State has every legal competence and jurisdiction to tax it, the department has contended. It has taken serious note of the non-payment of taxes by the broadband service providers. Reporting a turnover and then claiming exemption is one thing. But some of the OFC operators don't even report their turnovers, Mr. Chitaguppi alleged.
Re: Broadband ISPs taxed for generating light energy
On Oct 10, 2006, at 8:08 AM, Bill Woodcock wrote: Sounds reasonable to me. Since the sale of energy is usually measured in kilowatt-hours, how many kwh of energy is transmitted across the average optical fibre before it reaches the powereda mplifier in the destination switch/router? Also, remember, it's _net_ energy delivered which matters... I'm sure the customer is delivering light back toward the ISP as well. -Bill From my reading of the article, it appears that they are attempting to tax at 12.5 percent, the ISPs entire service revenue because that revenue is derived from the delivery of light energy, thus making the IP service actually a utility product. It looks like the tax department is arguing that what is currently being billed/taxed as a service is actually a product and such product should be subject to VAT. It would be akin to California adding 7.75% to my ISP bill for sales tax. Owen PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Broadband ISPs taxed for generating light energy
Well there's of course back taxes charged for a period of ~ 3 years or more, plus interest and late payment penalties on those back taxes On 10/10/06, Roy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A Cisco ZX GBIC produces a max of 4.77 dBm (or less than 4mw). 4mw corresponds to 35 watt hours in one year. However, since the customer must beam back light as part of the exchange then you must track the number of pulses in both directions and determine the difference. Some days the customer gets more energy and some days it doesn't. That should affect the tax. -- Suresh Ramasubramanian ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Broadband ISPs taxed for generating light energy
A rather humorous article from a rhetorical perspective. The reporter emphasizes the innocence of generating light while ignoring its commercial aspects. Those light pulses are very valuable to recipients. This tax seems to parallel the U.S. Federal Excise Tax on photons and electrons (i.e., telephone service). I don't see anything unusual here other than a weak argument against taxing authority. If you want to argue against the concept of taxation, be my guest. But let's not obfuscate the real issue here. Tax evasion often results in assessment of hugh penalties. Just ask Spiro Agnew or Al Capone. This is news? matthew black california state university, long beach On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 19:58:13 +0530 Suresh Ramasubramanian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: .. because they provide internet over fiber optic cables, which work by sending pulses of light down the cable to push packets .. http://www.hindu.com/2006/10/10/stories/2006101012450400.htm So they get slapped with tax + penalties of INR 241.8 million. Broadband providers accused of tax evasion Special Correspondent Commercial Tax Department serves notice on Airtel # Firms accused of evading tax on sale of `light energy' # Loss to State exchequer estimated at Rs. 1,200 crore Bangalore: The Commercial Tax Department has served a notice on Airtel, owned by Bharti Televentures Ltd., seeking payment of Rs. 24.18 crore as tax, interest and penalty for the sale of `light energy' to its customers for providing broadband through optical fibre cables (OFC). The department has been investigating alleged tax evasion by OFC broadband providers, both in the public and private sectors, for selling light energy to customers. While the assessment on Airtel was completed and a notice issued to it for alleged tax evasion during the year 2005-06, no assessment has been concluded on other OFC broadband providers, A.K. Chitaguppi, Deputy Commissioner of Commercial Taxes, said. Other OFC broadband providers facing tax evasion charges are public sector BSNL and private sector VSNL, Reliance, Tata Teleservices and Sify. The Commercial Tax Department has estimated a loss of Rs. 1,200 crore to the State exchequer in this regard since OFC broadband providers have been operating in the State for several years. Mr. Chitaguppi said that OFC operates on light energy, which is artificially created by the OFC providers and sold to customers for the purpose of data transmission and information, on the OFC broadband line. Without such energy, data or information cannot be transmitted. Whoever sells light energy is liable to pay VAT as it comes under the category of goods, and hence its sale constitutes taxable turnover attracting VAT at 12.5 per cent, he said. Bharti Televentures had approached the Karnataka High Court seeking to quash the demand notice, but failed to get a stay when the case was heard by Justice Shantanu Goudar on September 1. The judge rejected Bharti's plea seeking issue of an injunction against any initiatives from the Commercial Tax Department on the recovery of the tax. Bharti Televentures had contended in the High Court that re-assessment orders passed by State tax officials and the issue of demand notice was not valid as the disputed activity fell under the provision of service tax levied by the Union Government and did not attract VAT. The High Court is expected to take up the case for hearing again in the next few days. `Business venture' The Commercial Tax Department has argued that the OFC broadband operators are running a business venture after investing thousands of crores to put in place a state-of-the-art set-up to artificially generate light energy and supply it to its customers for their data transmission work. The characteristics of the light energy constitute a moveable property, which has to be categorised as `goods' as per the norms laid down by the Supreme Court. In the process of data transmission, other than light energy, no other elements are involved and the customers are paying for the same. This proves that light energy constitutes goods, which is liable for levy of tax. Therefore, the State has every legal competence and jurisdiction to tax it, the department has contended. It has taken serious note of the non-payment of taxes by the broadband service providers. Reporting a turnover and then claiming exemption is one thing. But some of the OFC operators don't even report their turnovers, Mr. Chitaguppi alleged.
Re: Broadband ISPs taxed for 'generating light energy'
Perhaps five or six years ago, Lucent was experimenting with a fiber to the home application that took the received optical signal and passed it through a splitter on the customer's premises. One half of the received signal went to the optical network element's receive circuitry, and the other half to was channeled to support remote diagnostics, loopbacks and a return path via a MEMS-type mirror assembly. Speculation even existed, at the time, suggesting the use of a separate wavelength for powering purposes, only, thereby solving the lifeline dilemma. More recently I've come across this release from JDSU, below, which tempers what even I thought was a bizarre assertion on the part of the Bangalore government: From: http://www.globalexecutiveforum.net/Photonics.htm --snip: JDSU claims O-to-E conversion efficiency record JDSU announced that its Photonic Power Business Unit has achieved a world record in the conversion efficiency of laser light into electrical power. JDSU's 3 volt and 5 volt gallium arsenide (GaAs) Photovoltaic Power Converter (PPC) has achieved optical-to-electrical conversion efficiency greater than 50%. This breakthrough further enables the use of fiber optics to replace copper for power delivery where isolation from the surrounding environment is essential. Photonic Power is especially beneficial for cost-effectively driving electronic devices operating in high-voltage, RF/EMI and magnetic fields where traditional copper options are more complex or impractical. An efficiency of 50% pushes the boundaries of the maximum theoretical limit for photovoltaic power conversion. This improvement enables more power-hungry electronics such as transducers, transceivers and sensors to be powered over fiber. The higher power efficiency also permits remote electronics to be powered by fiber over longer distances such as tower-mounted installations for cellular and digital TV relay stations. Other applications are numerous including underground exploration and medical applications where the isolated power allows the operation of devices inside strong magnetic fields such as MRI (Magnetic Resonance Imaging). With this breakthrough conversion efficiency, JDSU is better positioned to deliver solutions to the medical, industrial sensor, and wireless communications industries, said David Gudmundson, vice president of corporate development for JDSU. We believe that the delivery of power over fiber can provide strategic and competitive advantages to a variety of applications that require isolated power and are looking for copper wire alternatives. end snip-- Practical? Who knows. Off topic? Youbetcha. I wouldn't have even brought this up except to add some balance to what was already an OT and out of control thread ;) Frank A. Coluccio DTI Consulting Inc. 212-587-8150 Office 347-526-6788 Mobile On Tue Oct 10 13:30 , Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law sent: Feh. Any government with real tax mojo will tax both of them on the gross, not the net. This isn't the milquetoast VAT, you know. On Tue, 10 Oct 2006, Roy wrote: However, since the customer must beam back light as part of the exchange then you must track the number of pulses in both directions and determine the difference. Some days the customer gets more energy and some days it doesn't. That should affect the tax. (OBSerious: I bet it's not true.) -- http://www.icannwatch.org Personal Blog: http://www.discourse.net A. Michael Froomkin |Professor of Law| [EMAIL PROTECTED] U. Miami School of Law, P.O. Box 248087, Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA +1 (305) 284-4285 | +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax) | http://www.law.tm --It's warm here.
