Re: ARIN sucks? was Re: Kremen's Buddy?
Richard A Steenbergen wrote: Try looking at it from an outsider's point of view instead. If you're new to dealing with ARIN, it is not uncommon to find the process is absolutely baffling, frustrating, slow, expensive, and requiring intrusive disclosure just shy of an anal cavity probe. I recently had to do the ARIN process for a customer from beginning to end. Never had experience with ARIN, nor its methods or templates (only RIPE experience). Took 5 weeks to get a /19 and then an additional 4 weeks to get the ASN. YMMV. -Hank Nussbacher http://www.interall.co.il
RE: ARIN sucks? was Re: Kremen's Buddy?
Richard A Steenbergen wrote: Try looking at it from an outsider's point of view instead. If you're new to dealing with ARIN, it is not uncommon to find the process is absolutely baffling, frustrating, slow, expensive, and requiring intrusive disclosure just shy of an anal cavity probe. Hank Said, I recently had to do the ARIN process for a customer from beginning to end. Never had experience with ARIN, nor its methods or templates (only RIPE experience). Took 5 weeks to get a /19 and then an additional 4 weeks to get the ASN. YMMV. YMMV, but my mileage has been just as bad yours, in some cases worse. Converting from swip's to RWHOIS took 6 months. ARIN is painful. Overly painful for someone who you pay for the right to USE IP addresses on a yearly basis Of course, that's just my personal viewpoint.
Re: ARIN sucks? was Re: Kremen's Buddy?
Lasher, Donn wrote: YMMV, but my mileage has been just as bad yours, in some cases worse. Converting from swip's to RWHOIS took 6 months. ARIN is painful. Overly painful for someone who you pay for the right to USE IP addresses on a yearly basis Of course, that's just my personal viewpoint. I'm curious why you converted to RWHOIS. I SWIP'd my entire network to get my assignments. Many large ISPs still SWIP. I didn't have time to mess with RWHOIS. -Jack
Re: ARIN sucks? was Re: Kremen's Buddy?
Hi, All our experiences consulting our clients about how to get their AS and Subnets have been pretty easy and fast. First get enought IP from 2 Peer to justify at least a /21; Now that you have 2 Peer, request the AS and a Subnet from ARIN; Take a day or 2 to prepare the paperwork; Submit it in the right sequence to ARIN; And LISTEN to your ARIN rep, they know how the procedure must be done and will help your get it done correctly. Simple really. Hank Nussbacher wrote: Richard A Steenbergen wrote: Try looking at it from an outsider's point of view instead. If you're new to dealing with ARIN, it is not uncommon to find the process is absolutely baffling, frustrating, slow, expensive, and requiring intrusive disclosure just shy of an anal cavity probe. I recently had to do the ARIN process for a customer from beginning to end. Never had experience with ARIN, nor its methods or templates (only RIPE experience). Took 5 weeks to get a /19 and then an additional 4 weeks to get the ASN. YMMV. -Hank Nussbacher http://www.interall.co.il -- Alain Hebert[EMAIL PROTECTED] PubNIX Inc. P.O. Box 175 Beaconsfield, Quebec H9W 5T7 tel 514-990-5911 http://www.pubnix.netfax 514-990-9443
Re: ARIN sucks? was Re: Kremen's Buddy?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Alain Hebert wrote: Hi, All our experiences consulting our clients about how to get their AS and Subnets have been pretty easy and fast. First get enought IP from 2 Peer to justify at least a /21; Now that you have 2 Peer, request the AS and a Subnet from ARIN; Take a day or 2 to prepare the paperwork; Submit it in the right sequence to ARIN; And LISTEN to your ARIN rep, they know how the procedure must be done and will help your get it done correctly. Simple really. - -- I'm in the process of obtaining PI ASN for my customer. Looking at ARIN's template, it appears to be pretty straight forward. 1. POC 2. ORG ID 3. AS Number 4. End-User Network Request (/22) Provided there aren't any issues with the filings, this entire process shouldn't take more than 1 week tops. regards, /virendra Hank Nussbacher wrote: Richard A Steenbergen wrote: Try looking at it from an outsider's point of view instead. If you're new to dealing with ARIN, it is not uncommon to find the process is absolutely baffling, frustrating, slow, expensive, and requiring intrusive disclosure just shy of an anal cavity probe. I recently had to do the ARIN process for a customer from beginning to end. Never had experience with ARIN, nor its methods or templates (only RIPE experience). Took 5 weeks to get a /19 and then an additional 4 weeks to get the ASN. YMMV. -Hank Nussbacher http://www.interall.co.il -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFFCXhEpbZvCIJx1bcRAplAAJkBPRQtw4TkAmteEXmdk3LTlrIaLACgtimT PvbaT4t0w2AbWohvhuU1/6Y= =sxRi -END PGP SIGNATURE-
RE: ARIN sucks? was Re: Kremen's Buddy?
Jack Wrote: I'm curious why you converted to RWHOIS. I SWIP'd my entire network to get my assignments. Many large ISPs still SWIP. I didn't have time to mess with RWHOIS. Control. Auditing. We got tired of spending countless resources trying to keep track of what we had, what ARIN thought we had, how to make the two match, how to modify it, etc. I don't know what ARIN's stats are, but I would imagine they have some VERY low number (I'd guess 5%) of IP XXX forms that are approved on the first try. I personally have a 0% success rate, and I spent a year or two in college With RWHOIS your IP usage data is internal, easily searchable, modifyable without going through email ping-pong with ARIN. We (at a previous employer)used a 3rd party integration program which stored the data in a database, then wrote out the rwhois file structure, which helped eliminate some of the pain of using the rwhois daemon by itself. It made any new IP address requests far easier, since we could do a complete self-audit before we ever asked ARIN for more space. I have to believe they far prefer that method of customer IP interaction as well. They don't have to chase virtual-paper forms around...
RE: ARIN sucks? was Re: Kremen's Buddy?
On Thu, 14 Sep 2006, Lasher, Donn wrote: approved on the first try. I personally have a 0% success rate, and I spent a year or two in college I assume you mean 0% success on first submission of the template. My experience has usually been that I don't give them quite enough detail on the first try. They say fill in some more detail here and here. The hardest part for me has always been forecasting expected future need. Our business changes frequently, and I never know what our expected usage will be...at least not with any certainty. Last time, we were about to roll our DLSAMs in a bunch of COs. The FCC pulled the UNE rug out from under us right as we were beginning deployment, and we canceled that idea. With RWHOIS your IP usage data is internal, easily searchable, modifyable without going through email ping-pong with ARIN. We (at a Are you aware of the use of in [ARIN] whois queries? With that, it's trivial (though time consuming) to get a list of all your SWIPs, and then have someone verify that everything that should be SWIPed is, and any stale ones are undone. I don't agree with the idea that you should only request and receive 3 months worth of IPs at a time, and I wonder how commonly anyone does that in practice...but this is the wrong list for that debate. -- Jon Lewis | I route Senior Network Engineer | therefore you are Atlantic Net| _ http://www.lewis.org/~jlewis/pgp for PGP public key_
RE: Kremen's Buddy?
It seems to me that this nicely illustrates a major problem with the current system. Here we have large blocks of IP space that, by their own rules, ARIN should take back. It all sounds nice on paper, but clearly there is a hole in the system whereby ARIN doesn't know and apparently has no way of figuring out that the space is no longer in use. Or maybe it means that ARIN has priorities and recovering this space is low on the priority list. Anyway, you are wrong. ARIN does have a way of figuring out that the space is no longer in use. When some sucker buys the addresses and tries to use them, they will find out that they must first update ARIN's records. And when they do that, ARIN will learn about the deal. At that point, they have to justify their address space just like anyone else, and only get to keep the amount of address space which they can justify. The fact that there are few suckers around to buy these addresses means that these block have been kicking around for a long time. But if there is ever a crunch for IPv4 address space, you can bet that ARIN members will empower ARIN to act unilaterally and take back the space. but the way things currently work it seems like if you can justify a block today, it's yours forever even if you stop actively using it. You haven't read through ARIN's policies yet, have you? --Michael Dillon
Re: Kremen's Buddy?
The fact that there is a lot of space assigned/allocated and not used in any easily observable way is well known to those who track the address exhaustion issue, I think. The fact that addresses are not used in an observable way does not imply that the addresses are not used at all. It simply means that the observation techniques used are not perfect. --Michael Dillon
Re: Kremen's Buddy?
Richard A Steenbergen wrote: Ever notice the only folks happy with the status quo are the few who have already have an intimate knowledge of the ARIN allocation process, and/or have the right political connections to resolve the issues that come up when dealing with them? Try looking at it from an outsider's point of view instead. If you're new to dealing with ARIN, it is not uncommon to find the process is absolutely baffling, frustrating, slow, expensive, and requiring intrusive disclosure just shy of an anal cavity probe. I take offense to all this misinformation based on my not so long ago viewpoint as an outsider. Based on everything I heard here, I had a negative view of ARIN. After all, everyone here deals with them. If they hate dealing with ARIN, it must be horrible. Live an learn. My experiences with ARIN are simple. It was a lot of work. I didn't have any of my netblocks SWIP'd, hadn't analyzed my network in the way that ARIN wanted, and so I had to work to get all this information together the first time. However, I found ARIN easy to work with. They helped me out when I had questions, and when I was terrified that they wouldn't give me IPs, they were generous. My second time in dealing with them was aggravating, as I wanted more than what they issued (they use time between requests to determine a trend of actual IP utilization). However, they were right, and my last request expanded the previous request block out (I love contiguous when I can have it) and started a new one (yipee! another route!). Please remember the outsiders. They expect that everyone dealing with ARIN and talking bad about the process to know what they are talking about. ARIN may not be perfect, but newcomers shouldn't be afraid. The hardest part is information gathering to setup for the first time, as many people don't have the information ARIN requests readily available. After that, a little due diligence and it's a cake walk. -Jack
Re: Kremen's Buddy?
Michael [mumble] spewed: ARIN does have a way of figuring out that the space is no longer in use. No, they don't. ARIN has problems around v4 allocation that need to be fixed for sure. I fit ras's mold of a person who is part of the machine and (I'll take a STEAK dinner ras, thank you) I disagree with some of his statements. Anyone could take someone elses documentation and exploit the system to some extent. I have a 105mb of zip you can use to acquire space if you need it _that bad_. You'd likely get the space as long as you changed some bits of information within it. I have found that the more legitimate your need the easier the process, right in line with membership expectation IMHO. Let use volume as the justification in this discussion and put it at at least a /16 for general purposes. Show up asking for the entire /16 you are going nowhere, but show that you have that many hosts that need access to the net and you are a service provider, you'll at least get started with something to get you on the road to a renumbering and return of provider space. It ain't that hard. How would you feel if along with the trust measure, some legal measures were added in? Perhaps this made it easy and eliminated the entire process of templates altogehter? - officers of applying companies sign a document stating that the demonstrated utilization is accurate and that the IP's will be used for purposes in compliance with Internet standards - companies agreed to have IP space allocation and utilization reviewed and certified by their auditors and results submitted to ARIN on a yearly basis as condition of use I'll see you in the lobby Sunday for my free trip to McCormack and Schmicks. ;-) -M -- Martin Hannigan(c) 617-388-2663 Renesys Corporation(w) 617-395-8574 Member of Technical Staff Network Operations [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ip reclamation was Re: Kremen's Buddy?
- Original Message Follows - From: william(at)elan.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] The fact that there is a lot of space assigned/allocated and not used in any easily observable way is well known to those who track the address exhaustion issue, I think. How much, though, is used, but not routed publically? Simple math from above: Allocated Not Routed: 3118838 (/24 blocks) - 21% I believe I wasn't clear. I meant to say, what fraction of this is in actual use, but not publically routed as opposed to the percent allocated and not in use, say, by defunct companies. Something that has been brought up from time to time here. It's not easily observable, but allowed. Not easily observable means some ip blocks maybe used but are not adverised in public BGP. This is a bit of an issue with certain part of US Gov. This is what I was getting at, but you've given an upper bound (21%) and I'm positive it's not even close to that. Still, it reduces the 21% to a amaller number. scott
allocations from ARIN was Re: Kremen's Buddy?
- Original Message Follows - From: Richard A Steenbergen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ever notice the only folks happy with the status quo are the few who have already have an intimate knowledge of the ARIN allocation process, and/or have the right political connections to resolve the issues that come up when dealing with them? Try looking at it from an outsider's point of view instead. If you're new to dealing with ARIN, it is not uncommon to find the process is absolutely baffling, frustrating, slow, expensive, and requiring intrusive disclosure just shy of an anal cavity probe. I am new to personally dealing with ARIN as of 1.5 years ago. I have had to get 5 seperate allocations in that time. I don't find this to be the case at all. They were very helpful and I was diligent in getting the things together necessary for the allocations and in my responses. It felt to me like teamwork rather than me against them. And, no, I didn't have to offer anyone free trips to Hawaii. ;-) scott
Re: Kremen's Buddy?
On Tue, Sep 12, 2006 at 08:46:11PM -0400, Joe Abley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote a message of 45 lines which said: It's confusing to me that there appears to be no shortage of people who are prepared to learn the three hundred ways of doing the same thing with perl, or how to dissect a core dump, or how BGP works, but who at the same time are not interested in reading the ARIN policy manual before making a request for resources. I may be very special but I find learning a new programming language or a new protocol much more fun than reading thick and boring policy documents. I've heard that lawyers or accountants have different tastes but I believe they are rare on this mailing list.
ARIN sucks? was Re: Kremen's Buddy?
I've heard the horror stories, and I remember that ARIN was difficult to deal with 10 years ago, but my recent experiences with them have been relatively painless. I expected the process to get worse as IPs become more scarce, but I haven't been seeing that. AFAICT they are more helpful and easier to work with right now than they have ever been. They came out with simplified templates last week and it looks like the process will now be even easier. Maybe it's harder for companies that don't run an rwhois server, and rwhois can be tricky to setup, but I was able to do it, and I would expect (or at least hope) that most of the people who are paid to run networks are in the same IQ range as me. What's so hard about this? http://www.arin.net/registration/templates/net-isp.txt Richard A Steenbergen wrote: Ever notice the only folks happy with the status quo are the few who have already have an intimate knowledge of the ARIN allocation process, and/or have the right political connections to resolve the issues that come up when dealing with them? Try looking at it from an outsider's point of view instead. If you're new to dealing with ARIN, it is not uncommon to find the process is absolutely baffling, frustrating, slow, expensive, and requiring intrusive disclosure just shy of an anal cavity probe.
Re: Kremen's Buddy?
- Original Message Follows - From: Stephane Bortzmeyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Tue, Sep 12, 2006 at 08:46:11PM -0400, Joe Abley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote to dissect a core dump, or how BGP works, but who at the same time are not interested in reading the ARIN policy manual before making a request for resources. I may be very special but I find learning a new programming language or a new protocol much more fun than reading thick and boring policy documents. Have you read the ARIN info regarding IPv4 allocations? If so, you're calling a few pages 'thick'. scott
Kremen's Buddy?
Chris Jester, the owner of hosting service provider Split Infinity, has been working with Kremen in trying to locate Cohen, whom Jester says is currently in Tijuana. http://www.avnonline.com/index.php?Primary_Navigation=Web_Exclusive_NewsAction=Print_ArticleContent_ID=242417 ---in case anyone has not googled mr. chris jester, please realize he is a buddy of gary kremen and is just looking to stir up dirt. IANAL, and neither are 99.9% of the rest of us here, so let's leave this to the lawyers and get back to discussing something like network operations. Michele _ Windows Live Spaces is here! Its easy to create your own personal Web site. http://spaces.live.com/signup.aspx
Re: Kremen's Buddy?
Chris Jester, the owner of hosting service provider Split Infinity, has been working with Kremen in trying to locate Cohen, whom Jester says is currently in Tijuana. http://www.avnonline.com/index.php?Primary_Navigation=Web_Exclusive_NewsAction=Print_ArticleContent_ID=242417 ---in case anyone has not googled mr. chris jester, please realize he is a buddy of gary kremen and is just looking to stir up dirt. IANAL, and neither are 99.9% of the rest of us here, so let's leave this to the lawyers and get back to discussing something like network operations. Michele Michele, While it would seem I agree with Kremens lawsuit, the pure intention of my posting to nanog is to gain insight into how things work so that I may personally gain a better understanding into the innards of the IP processing system for assignments and likewise. I *do* know Kremen, and I need to state that me knowing him and agreeing with him are two different things entirely. I am not involved in the ARIN BS in any way. I saw his filing against ARIN and found it interesting. I have noted negative points of the IP request process however I also know that ARIN ended up taking good care of me personally, so I dont have much personal issues at this time. It was a difficult process with lots of paperwork, and in the end, I got what I requested. Now that I have said that, let me make it clear, that I have no established pre-determined opinion of ARIN however the suit Kremen filed brought up some serious questions that I wanted to get lots of feedback on because to me it seems that when a business is tied to IP's they should somehow be able to insure that no ill-fate can come to those ip's. Something came up, that I want to share as well Once this subject took off on nanog, I have been oversaturated with people trying to sell me ip space. I have had offers for several /16's for 10,000.00 each that are no longer in use by the companies who own lol them. I want to say to those people that made those offers to me I do not wish to obtain IP space from the grey-market, the only IP space I ever need, I do ask ARIN for and will continue to do so. I appreciate the friendly offers, however the fact is, I have my own IP space assigned to me by ARIN already. So, bascially, thank you but no. Kremens filing just entered my mind and had me thinking about it, and how valid it is. It surely sparked some interest here hasn't it? So then it was worth discussing, IMHO. Should anyone wish to talk, my AIM is below. Cheers. Chris Jester Suavemente, INC. 619-227-8845 AIM: NJesterIII ICQ: 64791506
Re: Kremen's Buddy?
Once this subject took off on nanog, I have been oversaturated with people trying to sell me ip space. I have had offers for several /16's for 10,000.00 each that are no longer in use by the companies who own lol them. I want to say to those people that made those offers to me Here is a very good point of why ip space should not be a property traded on an open market. To me ip space is like a house number or a telephone number. A resource required and useable for a presence on the global internet only. The current process of allocating ip space based on need makes perfect sense. In order to assess the need, certain aspects of a network have to be disclosed to ARIN, that makes perfect sense as well. I'd hate to see an open market place for ip space. The ability to afford ip space based on wealth rather then technical merit makes little sense to me. For those who feel ARIN policy is too restrictive and obtaining PI space it too difficult, perhaps working with ARIN to adjust those policies would be a good place to start. Adi
RE: Kremen's Buddy?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Once this subject took off on nanog, I have been oversaturated with people trying to sell me ip space. I have had offers for several /16's for 10,000.00 each that are no longer in use by the companies who own lol them. It seems to me that this nicely illustrates a major problem with the current system. Here we have large blocks of IP space that, by their own rules, ARIN should take back. It all sounds nice on paper, but clearly there is a hole in the system whereby ARIN doesn't know and apparently has no way of figuring out that the space is no longer in use. It makes me wonder just how much space like that there is out there artifically increasing IP scarcity. I don't know what the solution is, but the way things currently work it seems like if you can justify a block today, it's yours forever even if you stop actively using it. Maybe allowing for some kind of IP market would cut down on that type of hoarding -- you would at the very least change the type of value those subnets have. Andrew Cruse
RE: Kremen's Buddy?
On Tue, 12 Sep 2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It seems to me that this nicely illustrates a major problem with the current system. Here we have large blocks of IP space that, by their own rules, ARIN should take back. It all sounds nice on paper, but clearly there is a hole in the system whereby ARIN doesn't know and apparently has no way of figuring out that the space is no longer in use. It makes me wonder just how much space like that there is out there artifically increasing IP scarcity. I don't know what the solution is, but the way things currently work it seems like if you can justify a block today, it's yours forever even if you stop actively using it. Maybe allowing for some kind of IP market would cut down on that type of hoarding -- you would at the very least change the type of value those subnets have. Many of those legacy allocations were made before ARIN came into being and IP assignments were doled out by the InterNIC. This was also before IANA/ICANN started allocating /8s to the various RIRs to hand out to organizations in their respective geographic areas. That said I think $RIR's approach has been that they won't push an organization on their legacy blocks. There have been a few cases of organizations willingly turning in their legacy blocks for more appropriately sized ranges in the past. jms
Re: Kremen's Buddy?
Thus spake [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Once this subject took off on nanog, I have been oversaturated with people trying to sell me ip space. I have had offers for several /16's for 10,000.00 each that are no longer in use by the companies who own lol them. It seems to me that this nicely illustrates a major problem with the current system. Here we have large blocks of IP space that, by their own rules, ARIN should take back. It all sounds nice on paper, but clearly there is a hole in the system whereby ARIN doesn't know and apparently has no way of figuring out that the space is no longer in use. It makes me wonder just how much space like that there is out there artifically increasing IP scarcity. I don't know what the solution is, but the way things currently work it seems like if you can justify a block today, it's yours forever even if you stop actively using it. Maybe allowing for some kind of IP market would cut down on that type of hoarding -- you would at the very least change the type of value those subnets have. ARIN's policies allow for grandfathering of allocations/assignments made prior to ARIN's establishment at least in part because they'd be on shaky ground legally trying to revoke them for noncompliance. It's not like those folks would willingly sign an RSA that would immediately result in losing their resources. And the community has, so far, agreed with this because the problem is at least getting no worse; it's manageable to make allowances for a fixed or shrinking number of legacy address space holders. However, I do recall that ISI ran (runs?) a program trying to contact folks who had legacy allocations and see if they were willing to return the parts they didn't need. Bill Manning reported on the progress a few times, and apparently a large number of those orgs either no longer existed or were willing to give back what they didn't need. I think this approach is acceptable to everyone, though I'd like to see more stats on what's been done and a more official sanction for the work. Also, IIRC, folks who have legacy allocations/assignments can't get more until their existing space is up to current standards, so it's not like they're getting a free ride on the old space _and_ getting new space. All we have to complain about are the folks that have so much they'll never need more, and those are relatively few in reality. I'm pretty sure the same situation exists for non-legacy space holders; even if you comply at the time of the request, if you later fall below the standards you're safe -- but you can't get more until you're back up to the standards. All in all, the process is decent, and it has community support. Ideal? No, but nothing ever is when lawyers get involved. S Stephen Sprunk God does not play dice. --Albert Einstein CCIE #3723 God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the K5SSSdice at every possible opportunity. --Stephen Hawking
Re: Kremen's Buddy?
Le 2006-09-12 à 15:10, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit : It makes me wonder just how much space like that there is out there artifically increasing IP scarcity. The fact that there is a lot of space assigned/allocated and not used in any easily observable way is well known to those who track the address exhaustion issue, I think. As an example, see Geoff Huston's IPv4 Address Report at http:// www.potaroo.net/tools/ipv4/. Joe
RE: Kremen's Buddy?
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Adi Linden Here is a very good point of why ip space should not be a property traded on an open market. To me ip space is like a house number or a telephone number. A resource required and useable for a presence on the global internet only. The current process of allocating ip space based on need makes perfect sense. In order to assess the need, certain aspects of a network have to be disclosed to ARIN, that makes perfect sense as well. I'd hate to see an open market place for ip space. The ability to afford ip space based on wealth rather then technical merit makes little sense to me. From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs could be replaced with From each according to the ARIN fee schedule, to each according to our impossible to decipher allocation templates. Marx would be proud! Centrally managed economic systems seem so wonderful on paper - that's why so many otherwise very smart people have championed the idea. Real world experience, on the other hand, has shown that capitalism is the worst possible method for distributing resources - except for all the other methods, which are even worse. Address trading prevents hording, which we have now. And its not just a little hording, either - Look at Geoff Huston's reports too see how much of the total IPv4 space is wasted. We economically incent people to waste space and not turn it back in. If that IP space was fungible, people would sell it, and more addresses would be available. The sorts of controls we have in place today tend to raise, rather than lower prices - again, history has shown this - they encourage scarcity and hoarding. And, if people have noticed, the Internet is what we use to make money, these days - at least, the folks on this list. My opinion is that ARIN should use some of its not inconsiderable warchest and hire some economists to do some real work on modalities for address distribution (i.e. give some grants). Aside from the practical utility, some real science around this topic would be of great intellectual benefit. - Daniel Golding
ip reclamation was Re: Kremen's Buddy?
- Original Message Follows - From: Joe Abley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Le 2006-09-12 à 15:10, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit : It makes me wonder just how much space like that there is out there artifically increasing IP scarcity. The fact that there is a lot of space assigned/allocated and not used in any easily observable way is well known to those who track the address exhaustion issue, I think. How much, though, is used, but not routed publically? Something that has been brought up from time to time here. It's not easily observable, but allowed. scott
Re: Kremen's Buddy?
Le 2006-09-12 à 17:21, Daniel Golding a écrit : From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs could be replaced with From each according to the ARIN fee schedule, to each according to our impossible to decipher allocation templates. I find the references to alleged, inherent difficulties with the ARIN resource assignment process increasingly tedious. Even if the templates were impossible to decipher, this isn't the forum to discuss them. In my opinion, you do the argument in favour of open trading of addresses as commodities a rank disservice by linking it to this kind of FUD. Joe
Re: ip reclamation was Re: Kremen's Buddy?
On Tue, 12 Sep 2006, Scott Weeks wrote: - Original Message Follows - From: Joe Abley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Le 2006-09-12 à 15:10, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit : It makes me wonder just how much space like that there is out there artifically increasing IP scarcity. The fact that there is a lot of space assigned/allocated and not used in any easily observable way is well known to those who track the address exhaustion issue, I think. How much, though, is used, but not routed publically? --- TOTAL FOR IPV4 BLOCKS: Allocated: 9302367 (/24 blocks) - 63% Not Allocated: 5377697 (/24 blocks) - 37% Currently Routed: 6183529 (/24 blocks) - 42% Not Routed: 8496535 (/24 blocks) - 58% --- Simple math from above: Allocated Not Routed: 3118838 (/24 blocks) - 21% This is from my data available at www.completewhois.com/statistics/ (which is for some reason partially broken right now - has all the correct data but coloring of bars did not happen). The percent calculation does not include class-d and class-e (i.e. only blocks 0/8 - 223/8 are counted). Something that has been brought up from time to time here. It's not easily observable, but allowed. Not easily observable means some ip blocks maybe used but are not adverised in public BGP. This is a bit of an issue with certain part of US Gov. scott -- William Leibzon Elan Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Kremen's Buddy?
On Tue, Sep 12, 2006 at 06:55:11PM -0400, Joe Abley wrote: I find the references to alleged, inherent difficulties with the ARIN resource assignment process increasingly tedious. Even if the templates were impossible to decipher, this isn't the forum to discuss them. In my opinion, you do the argument in favour of open trading of addresses as commodities a rank disservice by linking it to this kind of FUD. Ever notice the only folks happy with the status quo are the few who have already have an intimate knowledge of the ARIN allocation process, and/or have the right political connections to resolve the issues that come up when dealing with them? Try looking at it from an outsider's point of view instead. If you're new to dealing with ARIN, it is not uncommon to find the process is absolutely baffling, frustrating, slow, expensive, and requiring intrusive disclosure just shy of an anal cavity probe. In any kind of free market system, competition would have bitchslapped the current ARIN way of doing things a long, long time ago. Personally I find the single most compelling reason to move to IPv6 to be the removal of any justification for ARIN's continued existance in its current form. Somehow I suspect the only folks who wouldn't welcome this are the ones who benefit from the one thing ARIN is actually good at doing, namely paying for frequent business class travel and accomodations to exotic locations around the world under the pretense of meetings. Hrm guess I had better offer dinner in St Louis is on me for whichever one of my friends on the ARIN travel plan complains about this post first. :) -- Richard A Steenbergen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.e-gerbil.net/ras GPG Key ID: 0xF8B12CBC (7535 7F59 8204 ED1F CC1C 53AF 4C41 5ECA F8B1 2CBC)
Re: Kremen's Buddy?
On Sep 12, 2006, at 4:52 PM, Richard A Steenbergen wrote: On Tue, Sep 12, 2006 at 06:55:11PM -0400, Joe Abley wrote: I find the references to alleged, inherent difficulties with the ARIN resource assignment process increasingly tedious. Even if the templates were impossible to decipher, this isn't the forum to discuss them. In my opinion, you do the argument in favour of open trading of addresses as commodities a rank disservice by linking it to this kind of FUD. Ever notice the only folks happy with the status quo are the few who have already have an intimate knowledge of the ARIN allocation process, and/or have the right political connections to resolve the issues that come up when dealing with them? I'm not sure I completely buy this. However, I guess these days I'm one of the few who already have an intimate knowledge. I do remember being frustrated with the process when I was new to the process and even more so when the process was new. However, I can say that today, the process is much better documented, simpler, and more efficient than it was 10 or even 5 years ago. Try looking at it from an outsider's point of view instead. If you're new to dealing with ARIN, it is not uncommon to find the process is absolutely baffling, frustrating, slow, expensive, and requiring intrusive disclosure just shy of an anal cavity probe. I've had several clients who indeed perceived it this way. However, in each of their cases, I was able to spend a few hours working with them to collect the necessary information, fill out the ARIN template on their behalf, and, obtain address space for them in between 5 and 20 man hours. In terms of elapsed calendar time from initial submission to allocation, it ranged from 4-10 days if you don't count delays induced by my clients not having certain prerequisites in place on time. In any kind of free market system, competition would have bitchslapped the current ARIN way of doing things a long, long time ago. Personally I find the single most compelling reason to move to IPv6 to be the removal of any justification for ARIN's continued existance in its current form. I'm not sure this is true. I think if you compare the ARIN process for getting IP addresses to the FCC process for getting spectrum, ARIN's process is MUCH easier. Care to venture what it takes to get an allocation for a geosynchronous orbital slot? Guaranteed that's quite a bit harder than ARIN's process. Ever try to get your own issuance of phone numbers from NANPA or another telephone number registry? Yeah, that's quite a bit harder than ARIN, too. Can you please point to another registry for globally unique limited numeric addresses which is easier to deal with than ARIN? Somehow I suspect the only folks who wouldn't welcome this are the ones who benefit from the one thing ARIN is actually good at doing, namely paying for frequent business class travel and accomodations to exotic locations around the world under the pretense of meetings. Hrm guess I had better offer dinner in St Louis is on me for whichever one of my friends on the ARIN travel plan complains about this post first. :) while I have not always seen eye-to-eye with ARIN, this comment is flat out unjustified in my opinion. ARIN works very hard to provide an open and transparent governance process. They put significant effort into outreach trying to make the process easier and more accessible to newcomers. They have made significant effort to help people gain access to the addresses they need while still trying to be an effective gatekeeper against unwarranted hoarding or unjustified address acquisition. I'm not on the ARIN travel plan, but, I do find the public policy meetings a useful forum. I think that combined with the PPML, they provide about the best possible process for the evolution of IP policy in the ARIN service region. If you have a better idea, let's hear it. How would you like to see things done? The primary difference between whining and constructive criticism is that constructive criticism includes suggested remedies to the situation. Owen PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: ip reclamation was Re: Kremen's Buddy?
On Tue, 12 Sep 2006, william(at)elan.net wrote: How much, though, is used, but not routed publically? --- TOTAL FOR IPV4 BLOCKS: Allocated: 9302367 (/24 blocks) - 63% Not Allocated: 5377697 (/24 blocks) - 37% Currently Routed: 6183529 (/24 blocks) - 42% Not Routed: 8496535 (/24 blocks) - 58% --- Simple math from above: Allocated Not Routed: 3118838 (/24 blocks) - 21% Not easily observable means some ip blocks maybe used but are not adverised in public BGP. This is a bit of an issue with certain part of US Gov. The larged of these blocks are 6/8, 11/8, 21/8, 22/8, 25/8, 26/8, 28/8, 29/8, 30/8. 51/8, 52/8, 56/8 and I strongly suspect 48/8. This comes to total 851968 /24s; this still leaves 2266870 /24 blocks that includes some smaller used but not advertised and some no-longer-used space. I suspect the total would be around 1/2 of value above, i.e. around 10% of ip space is something that could potentially be reclaimed (that is unless you want to bug us military who have way too much space). -- William Leibzon Elan Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Kremen's Buddy?
Le 2006-09-12 à 19:52, Richard A Steenbergen a écrit : Ever notice the only folks happy with the status quo are the few who have already have an intimate knowledge of the ARIN allocation process, and/or have the right political connections to resolve the issues that come up when dealing with them? No, I haven't noticed that. I have noticed people popping up and saying so long as you supply the documentation that they ask for, it's pretty easy, however, which certainly matches my experience. Try looking at it from an outsider's point of view instead. If you're new to dealing with ARIN, it is not uncommon to find the process is absolutely baffling, frustrating, slow, expensive, and requiring intrusive disclosure just shy of an anal cavity probe. Things that you've never done before can seem difficult. Film at 11. It's confusing to me that there appears to be no shortage of people who are prepared to learn the three hundred ways of doing the same thing with perl, or how to dissect a core dump, or how BGP works, but who at the same time are not interested in reading the ARIN policy manual before making a request for resources. Learning curves abound in every direction. The ARIN process is by far the easiest of those examples to get to grips with from someone who has no prior experience. In any kind of free market system, competition would have bitchslapped the current ARIN way of doing things a long, long time ago. I'm not an economist, and this is not a policy list, so I have nothing to say about that here. Joe
Re: Kremen's Buddy?
On Sep 12, 2006, at 8:46 PM, Joe Abley wrote: In any kind of free market system, competition would have bitchslapped the current ARIN way of doing things a long, long time ago. I'm not an economist, and this is not a policy list, so I have nothing to say about that here. Wrong, on all three counts ;-) You make a living, at least sometimes, making networks do more or better for the same or less. That makes you a practicing/applied economist at least (sorry). Competition in this case could only lead to a race to the bottom, as the RIR processes that (attempt to) guarantee a tight fit between address allocation and actual production requirements give way to highest-bidder / lowest-requirements wins. Such a shift might serve the interests of those whose pockets are deeper than their interest in the long-term viability of the Internet, but only at the expense of the rest of the operator community, and their customers, present and future. TV
