Re: So why don't US citizens get this?
On Jul 27, 2008, at 5:37 AM, Joe Greco wrote: Yes, I do. The free market is a system where corporations like to take the easiest road to do the least work to maximize profits, while everyone else is doing the same thing. Recognizing your biases here, I think an economist might define it a little differently. For example, see http://www.investorwords.com/2086/free_market.html . The key thing in that definition is the lack of government intervention in its various forms. That's D'Arcy's point. Where there is government subsidy, regulation, or other intervention, it cannot be described as a free market.
Re: So why don't US citizens get this?
Fred Baker wrote: The key thing in that definition is the lack of government intervention in its various forms. That's D'Arcy's point. Where there is government subsidy, regulation, or other intervention, it cannot be described as a free market. I have always understood the issue to be the presence or absence of unfettered competition. Competition is good. It's lack is bad. Government can be one source of fettering. So can monopolization. So can post-purchase lock-in. Anything that restricts the ability of the consumer to make on-going choices for alternate sources of products and services. Which is to say, anything that alters the incentives of companies to provide better products at better prices. We ought to stop saying 'free' and instead say 'competitive'. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net
Re: So why don't US citizens get this?
Mark Foster wrote: deadfake.com offer anonymised email services with no signup. Does this not immediately raise questions in itself? Or am I just unnaturally suspicious of such services? Have to admitt as soon as I see traffic relayed by a system such as that, I stop putting much stock in its content... shoot the messenger, eh? the fact is that real 100m/100m is about USD30/mo in japan. in the states, i pay about USD90 for 256k/768k. as far as the internet is concerned, the united states is a third world country. randy
Re: So why don't US citizens get this?
Dave Crocker wrote: I have always understood the issue to be the presence or absence of unfettered competition. Competition is good. It's lack is bad. The problem is that it is rather hard to enable full competitive environment in the last mile. No city, no citizen wants to have 300 wires running along the poles on streets. In fact, a properly managed monopoly (with rules to grant access to the last mile) can probably financially justify deploying fibre to the home far more easily than in a competitive environment. The big problem in north america is whoever decided to make ADSL work on old copper. Had ADSL never materialised, the telcos would have been forced to put fibre to the homes. But now that they have invested in the ADSL quagmire, it becomes much harder for them to justify fibre to the home. But a CEO with vision would get the telco to stop deploying remotes everywhere and leverage the fibre's ability to reach longer distances and cover neighbourhoods with far fewer remote/nodes. The problem is that CEOs are not hired for their vision, they are hired for their ability to please wall street casino analysts (who in term please shareholders with their articles in the various wall street casino newspapers/magazines). Competition only works when the goal is to please customers. It does not work when the goal is to screw customers as much as they will tolerate. (Consider mobile telephony in north america, especially Rogers/Bell/Telus in canada).
RE: So why don't US citizens get this?
bRandy Bush/b lt;a href=mailto:nanog%40nanog.org?Subject=So%20why%20don%27t%20US%20citizens%20get%20this%3Famp;In-Reply-To=Pine.LNX.4.62.0807271144360.11610%40maverick.blakjak.net; title=So why don't US citizens get this?[EMAIL PROTECTED]gt; at iSun Jul 27 08:18:20 UTC 2008 said:/i/abrgt; shoot the messenger, eh?brpregt; the fact is that real 100m/100m is about USD30/mo in japan. in thebrgt; states, i pay about USD90 for 256k/768k. as far as the internet isbrgt; concerned, the united states is a third world country.brgt;brgt; randybrbrThis is exactly my point, why is it that the US is so behind???br/prebr -- No, this email's not real, it's http://deadfake.com
Re: So why don't US citizens get this?
On 2008/07/27 10:18 AM Randy Bush wrote: the fact is that real 100m/100m is about USD30/mo in japan. in the states, i pay about USD90 for 256k/768k. as far as the internet is concerned, the united states is a third world country. I currently pay (converted from ZAR to USD) $40/m for 192k/384k DSL. That gives me a pair to the exchange DSLAM, no internet. On top of that, I pay $10/m for each GB used on that line. My average spend on plain old POTS DSL is $100/m. If the US is the third world of telecoms, S.A. is the 50th world. Please /do/ moan about government incompetence, drug induced legislation and failure for the stupidest people on this earth to understand free market economy (and where it works). Please /don't/ pretend to be in the worst position out there, because I have some gruelling stories to tell... :)
cogent bgp filtering policies?
Now that I am on my third round of an email argument with cogent's support department about adding prefixes to our filters (and them not understanding why I want le 24 matches on the blocks from which we allocate subnets to multi-homed customers) I figure it would be a good idea to ask if anyone has ever gotten cogent to setup any IRR based filtering on a customer connection. We are a small-ish regional transit provider in the northwest announcing 100 prefixes and just spent the last few days writing emails and calling trying to get cogent to accept more than 30% of the routes we were announcing.We have IRR (radb to be specific) filters set up with our other four providers which really lowered my tolerance for having to go round and round to get prefixes added. Heck, at this point I would settle for a direct email address for their engineering department just to avoid the arguments with the support monkeys. I should note that this is actually the second time I have had this issue (the last time was with one of our customers and their cogent connection) even though we only turned up our service recently. John van Oppen AS11404
Re: So why don't US citizens get this?
Hi All, we are rendering similar (but up to 1Gbps to home) service. This is also very popular in Russia. This type of network is much cheaper to build and much cheaper in maintain than ADSL or CaTV (DOCSIS). The problem is... USERS!!! A regular user just don't understand the difference. That's why first houses covered is where no coverage of any type of Internet connection at all. But if there is something - people continue to use DSLs, even if not happy with it. I hear from my colleges about a pilot-project in New York, but it is about 1000 users. If somebody here interesting in this technology and business, please, contact me off-list. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: https://asahi-net.jp/en/service/ftth.html -- hmm?br -- WBR, Max Tulyev (MT6561-RIPE, 2:463/[EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: OT: Free Market
On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 23:37:09 -0500 (CDT) Joe Greco [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The problem with the free market is that it doesn't work in the public's best interest, but rather in the best interest of the companies involved. Say What? You talk about government mandated monopolies, government subsidies and massive government regulation and then point to it as a failure of the free market? Do you even know what free market means? Yes, I do. The free market is a system where corporations like to take the easiest road to do the least work to maximize profits, while everyone else is doing the same thing. Normally, this might merely result in the sort of situation you have with Wal-Mart vs K-Mart vs Target, where the consumer gets to trade off different variables (quality of goods, price of goods, condition of store, etc). In the case of telecommunications, however, certain telecommunications companies looked around at the situation and determined it was most easily accomplished by lobbying the government for pseudo-monopoly status, in exchange for promises of an open network, But if the government is in a position to grant monopoly status how can you call that free? Free from what? The free market created this situation, because, without separation of Companies lobbied for this situation. The non-free market (i.e. government) forces everyone else to stay out of the market. Force != free. If it isn't readily apparent that I understand what free market means, and how our government has caved in to give us anything BUT a free market, well, sigh. The free market has a really tough time operating in an environment where the government ultimately enables and gives a blank check to monopolies. Perhaps we are just in violent agreement disagreeing over terminology then but to me a free market is free of government interference. You seem to be describing a market that responds to the given situation, not a free market. This should probably be taken off list. -- D'Arcy J.M. Cain [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Democracy is three wolves http://www.druid.net/darcy/| and a sheep voting on +1 416 425 1212 (DoD#0082)(eNTP) | what's for dinner.
Re: So why don't US citizens get this?
On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 09:29:38 -0500 (CDT) Joe Greco [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The key thing in that definition is the lack of government intervention in its various forms. That's D'Arcy's point. Where there is government subsidy, regulation, or other intervention, it cannot be described as a free market. Actually, it could... but you have to understand the situation better. Ah. I didn't realize that I just didn't understand the situation as well as you. Thanks for setting me straight. If you call a tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have? Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it one. Abraham Lincoln As I said, I mostly agree with you in your analysis. The main thing I differ on is your definition. The market is not free and just calling it free doesn't change that. This will be my last post along this thread, due to thread drift. Me too. -- D'Arcy J.M. Cain [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Democracy is three wolves http://www.druid.net/darcy/| and a sheep voting on +1 416 425 1212 (DoD#0082)(eNTP) | what's for dinner.
Re: So why don't US citizens get this?
D'Arcy J.M. Cain wrote: On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 09:29:38 -0500 (CDT) Joe Greco [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The key thing in that definition is the lack of government intervention in its various forms. That's D'Arcy's point. Where there is government subsidy, regulation, or other intervention, it cannot be described as a free market. Actually, it could... but you have to understand the situation better. Ah. I didn't realize that I just didn't understand the situation as well as you. Thanks for setting me straight. If you call a tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have? Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it one. Abraham Lincoln You don';t watch television much do you. Especially the news. We are well past 1984. -- Requiescas in pace o email Two identifying characteristics of System Administrators: Ex turpi causa non oritur actioInfallibility, and the ability to learn from their mistakes. Eppure si rinfresca ICBM Targeting Information: http://tinyurl.com/4sqczs
Re: Software router state of the art
On Sat, 26 Jul 2008, Dorn Hetzel wrote: Ok, it's probably a stupid question, but given the relative ease of putting 4gb+ ram on a 64bit platform, could packet per second performance be improved by brute forcing the route lookup as an array of 1 byte destination interface indexes for a contiguous swath of /32's from bottom to top? Much easier if you filter out any longer prefixes than /24 :-) Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://dotat.at/ IRISH SEA: VARIABLE 3 OR 4 BECOMING NORTHEAST 4 OR 5. SLIGHT. FOG PATCHES, THUNDERY SHOWERS LATER. MODERATE OR GOOD, OCCASIONALLY VERY POOR.
Admin: Offtopic Political Threads
List members are reminder that the NANOG List Acceptable Use Policy states that: 6. Postings of political, philosophical, and legal nature are prohibited. The current thread on the Free Market and So why don't US citizens get this? appears to be solely political and should be moved elsewhere. Simon Lyall NANOG Mailing List Committee The above is a reminder regarding desired emails to the NANOG mailing list from the Mailing List Committee (MLC). While it does not constitute a Formal Warning it is an official correspondence from the MLC after internal consultation. Please contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] if you have any feedback
Re: cogent bgp filtering policies?
Cogent does not support IRR. Since you're using IRR yourself, Richard Steenbergen's IRRPT (irrpt.sf.net) has a script called 'irrpt_nag' which is good for sending automated requests for prefix-list updates with providers that continue to process them manually. You can (and should) ask that Cogent's Engineering department okay you for support for de-aggregation down to the /24 level or more specific. They will with proper justification or a general feeling that you've got good reason and aren't just looking to gratuitously de-aggregate prefixes for no reason. Drive Slow, Paul On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 5:59 AM, John van Oppen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Now that I am on my third round of an email argument with cogent's support department about adding prefixes to our filters (and them not understanding why I want le 24 matches on the blocks from which we allocate subnets to multi-homed customers) I figure it would be a good idea to ask if anyone has ever gotten cogent to setup any IRR based filtering on a customer connection. We are a small-ish regional transit provider in the northwest announcing 100 prefixes and just spent the last few days writing emails and calling trying to get cogent to accept more than 30% of the routes we were announcing.We have IRR (radb to be specific) filters set up with our other four providers which really lowered my tolerance for having to go round and round to get prefixes added. Heck, at this point I would settle for a direct email address for their engineering department just to avoid the arguments with the support monkeys. I should note that this is actually the second time I have had this issue (the last time was with one of our customers and their cogent connection) even though we only turned up our service recently. John van Oppen AS11404
RE: cogent bgp filtering policies?
That software might be a good solution for sending them updates, heck a script sending it out every time it detects an update might also cause them to get more excited about automating updates. ;) We also had issues with them wanting a paper (or faxed) LOA which seemed a bit onerous given the number of prefixes we announce. The le 24 matches should have been easy since the reason we wanted them were because we have customers using their own ASNs to announce sub-allocations of our space, a quick look on their part the first time we made the request would have shown that the sub allocations were all originated from downstream ASNs from our network. If anyone has an engineering contact at cogent (ie not the support contact) I would love to talk to them as it seems support department front-end is the problem and not necessarily cogent's actual policies. Thanks, John van Oppen Spectrum Networks LLC 206.973.8302 (Direct) 206.973.8300 (main office) -Original Message- From: Paul Wall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 4:30 PM To: John van Oppen Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: cogent bgp filtering policies? Cogent does not support IRR. Since you're using IRR yourself, Richard Steenbergen's IRRPT (irrpt.sf.net) has a script called 'irrpt_nag' which is good for sending automated requests for prefix-list updates with providers that continue to process them manually. You can (and should) ask that Cogent's Engineering department okay you for support for de-aggregation down to the /24 level or more specific. They will with proper justification or a general feeling that you've got good reason and aren't just looking to gratuitously de-aggregate prefixes for no reason. Drive Slow, Paul On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 5:59 AM, John van Oppen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Now that I am on my third round of an email argument with cogent's support department about adding prefixes to our filters (and them not understanding why I want le 24 matches on the blocks from which we allocate subnets to multi-homed customers) I figure it would be a good idea to ask if anyone has ever gotten cogent to setup any IRR based filtering on a customer connection. We are a small-ish regional transit provider in the northwest announcing 100 prefixes and just spent the last few days writing emails and calling trying to get cogent to accept more than 30% of the routes we were announcing.We have IRR (radb to be specific) filters set up with our other four providers which really lowered my tolerance for having to go round and round to get prefixes added. Heck, at this point I would settle for a direct email address for their engineering department just to avoid the arguments with the support monkeys. I should note that this is actually the second time I have had this issue (the last time was with one of our customers and their cogent connection) even though we only turned up our service recently. John van Oppen AS11404
Re: Admin: Offtopic Political Threads
Simon, Sorry to steer this in a different direction, but could you please tell us a bit about the new MLC's plans for suspending habitual off-topic posters in violation of the three strikes rule, such as Gadi Evron and Larry Sheldon? Paul On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 5:29 PM, Simon Lyall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: List members are reminder that the NANOG List Acceptable Use Policy states that: 6. Postings of political, philosophical, and legal nature are prohibited. The current thread on the Free Market and So why don't US citizens get this? appears to be solely political and should be moved elsewhere. Simon Lyall NANOG Mailing List Committee The above is a reminder regarding desired emails to the NANOG mailing list from the Mailing List Committee (MLC). While it does not constitute a Formal Warning it is an official correspondence from the MLC after internal consultation. Please contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] if you have any feedback
Re: Admin: Offtopic Political Threads
On Sun, 27 Jul 2008, Paul Wall wrote: Sorry to steer this in a different direction, but could you please tell us a bit about the new MLC's plans for suspending habitual off-topic posters in violation of the three strikes rule, such as Gadi Evron and Larry Sheldon? That question is off-topic for the main list so I'll redirect it to futures. Can people please redirect any further followups there. Please remember that discussion about this list itself should go to futures. As for your actual questions, I am not in a position to give answers without consulting the rest of the MLC. -- Simon Lyall | Very Busy | Web: http://www.darkmere.gen.nz/ To stay awake all night adds a day to your life - Stilgar | eMT.
Re: Admin: Offtopic Political Threads
On Sun, 27 Jul 2008, Paul Wall wrote: Simon, Sorry to steer this in a different direction, but could you please tell us a bit about the new MLC's plans for suspending habitual off-topic posters in violation of the three strikes rule, such as Gadi Evron and Larry Sheldon? can you take your regular baiting to nanog-futures, please? Gadi. Paul On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 5:29 PM, Simon Lyall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: List members are reminder that the NANOG List Acceptable Use Policy states that: 6. Postings of political, philosophical, and legal nature are prohibited. The current thread on the Free Market and So why don't US citizens get this? appears to be solely political and should be moved elsewhere. Simon Lyall NANOG Mailing List Committee The above is a reminder regarding desired emails to the NANOG mailing list from the Mailing List Committee (MLC). While it does not constitute a Formal Warning it is an official correspondence from the MLC after internal consultation. Please contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] if you have any feedback
