Re: [Nanog-futures] Draft Policy re individual sites
On May 11, 2009, at 11:22 PM, Randy Bush wrote: i, for one, am ready. i have a delete key for messages that do not interest me. but i do not have an undelete for messages which censors do not think i should read. Randy what you are saying makes sense. But you are forgetting the dark side of this behavior. The loudness of the people with nothing useful to say makes it impossible for a lot of technically clueful people to participate. For example, I don't even try to keep up with Nanog. Keeping up with Nanog would take up far far far too many hours a week for me to both hold down a job and spend any reasonable time with my partner, children, etc. Which is why I didn't see your reply until 25 days after you posted it. Because Nanog's lack of useful content gives it an extremely low priority on my list. In theory, if Nanog was topical to its own mission, Nanog would be a must read every day. I wish. The arguments for censorship are to try and limit the list to useful content to all parties. Your statement about subscribing to the 20 lists which interest you and dumping them all in the same folder is actually a perfect solution (for you). You get to choose which 20 topics interest you. I get to choose a different 20, etc and so forth. We interact on 4 or 5 we have in common and all of the posts on those lists being topical to the list, is a perfect scenario. No, I doubt perfection will ever happen on any of those lists nevermind all. But it's more likely to work than the current I can barely spell network and my 16-bit ethernet interface on my Redhat linux system isn't working posts we routinely see on NANOG today. -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness ___ Nanog-futures mailing list Nanog-futures@nanog.org http://mailman.nanog.org/mailman/listinfo/nanog-futures
[Nanog-futures] modest proposal for moderation
Very simple idea: if it hasn't been a topic in the NANOG conference, and is unlikely to be a topic in the NANOG conference, it doesn't belong on the mailing list. Note: topic in the presentation room, not topic at the hotel bar ;-) -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness ___ Nanog-futures mailing list Nanog-futures@nanog.org http://mailman.nanog.org/mailman/listinfo/nanog-futures
Re: [Nanog-futures] spam-l list
On May 15, 2009, at 1:50 PM, Jim Popovitch wrote: On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 02:29, Jo Rhett jrh...@netconsonance.com wrote: That's funny, given that Mailman is the source of significant amounts of backscatter. Mailman is neither an MTA nor a MUA. Something before or after Mailman is backscattering. Sorry, but you are wrong. Mailman creates new messages and sends them to forged senders of messages it receives without checking any validity whatsoever. Mailman creates backscatter regardless of the MTA. And mailman.org is ALSO configured by the administrators in a way that easily allows backscatter. Anyway, off topic even for futures so respond offline. -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness ___ Nanog-futures mailing list Nanog-futures@nanog.org http://mailman.nanog.org/mailman/listinfo/nanog-futures
Re: [Nanog-futures] Draft Policy re individual sites
In theory, if Nanog was topical to its own mission, Nanog would be a must read every day. We all agree that Pascal needs only one or two changes. The problem is we each have a different set of changes. -- pascal hacker back in the '70s the problem here is that the community is diverse, and we need to honor that diversity. The arguments for censorship are to try and limit the list to useful content to all parties. Your statement about subscribing to the 20 lists which interest you and dumping them all in the same folder is actually a perfect solution (for you). You get to choose which 20 topics interest you. I get to choose a different 20, etc and so forth. We interact on 4 or 5 we have in common and all of the posts on those lists being topical to the list, is a perfect scenario. qed randy ___ Nanog-futures mailing list Nanog-futures@nanog.org http://mailman.nanog.org/mailman/listinfo/nanog-futures
Re: [Nanog-futures] Draft Policy re individual sites
On May 1, 2009, at 1:34 PM, Martin Hannigan wrote: I think most of us are broad minded and appreciate common sense topics related to network operations. Yes. Most know what that is. No need to make rules to assault the few, IMHO. If they were few, this wouldn't be a topic. Perhaps you have time to sit and hit delete for a few hours every day before you find a single post relevant to your job. I don't, and neither do any of the very clueful admins who don't even try to read Nanog once a month, like I do. So the more noise, the less clueful content. -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness ___ Nanog-futures mailing list Nanog-futures@nanog.org http://mailman.nanog.org/mailman/listinfo/nanog-futures
Re: [Nanog-futures] Draft Policy re individual sites
--- jrh...@netconsonance.com wrote: Perhaps you have time to sit and hit delete for a few hours every day before you find a single post relevant to your job. I don't, and snip 'Select All' on the 'Subject' you don't want to read about and delete. A few hours turns into a few minutes... :-) scott - -- -- ___ Nanog-futures mailing list Nanog-futures@nanog.org http://mailman.nanog.org/mailman/listinfo/nanog-futures
Re: [Nanog-futures] modest proposal for moderation
Note: topic in the presentation room, not topic at the hotel bar ;-) ... which clearly means that you've missed where the real discussions happen. and only want to discuss what has already been discussed randy ___ Nanog-futures mailing list Nanog-futures@nanog.org http://mailman.nanog.org/mailman/listinfo/nanog-futures
Re: [Nanog-futures] Draft Policy re individual sites
On Jun 9, 2009, at 5:58 PM, Scott Weeks wrote: 'Select All' on the 'Subject' you don't want to read about and delete. A few hours turns into a few minutes... :-) I do that, but at risk. Far too many people who should know better use Reply to create a new thread. So their new thread gets to be part of someone else's stupid thread. If only the people who were smart enough to use Compose to start a new thread were an overlapping set with the people whose commentary was well-thought and clueful... -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness ___ Nanog-futures mailing list Nanog-futures@nanog.org http://mailman.nanog.org/mailman/listinfo/nanog-futures
Re: [Nanog-futures] modest proposal for moderation
On Jun 9, 2009, at 5:24 PM, Cat Okita wrote: On Tue, 9 Jun 2009, Jo Rhett wrote: Note: topic in the presentation room, not topic at the hotel bar ;-) ... which clearly means that you've missed where the real discussions happen. No, I made that statement because I know what gets discussed at the bar ;-) And c'mon Cat, if there is something that nobody has ever accused me of, it's not of refusing to go drink with people. -- Jo Rhett Net Consonance : consonant endings by net philanthropy, open source and other randomness ___ Nanog-futures mailing list Nanog-futures@nanog.org http://mailman.nanog.org/mailman/listinfo/nanog-futures
Re: [Nanog-futures] modest proposal for moderation
On Jun 9, 2009, at 8:58 PM, Randy Bush wrote: Note: topic in the presentation room, not topic at the hotel bar ;-) ... which clearly means that you've missed where the real discussions happen. and only want to discuss what has already been discussed The original post also said and is unlikely to be a topic in the NANOG conference, which sounds like it would include anything that is likely to be discussed. Back to the original question: Fair attempt, but I think it falls short. It would be closer to say could possibly be a topic in the conference. But even that falls short, IMHO. There are subjects which are on topic useful for the mailing list which will never be presented. Besides, I think we have a fine system now. The MLC is doing an outstanding job. Do you not agree? (Randy, don't bother answering, I wasn't asking you. We all know your position - same as spammers, JHD. I don't like it when they say it either.) -- TTFN, patrick ___ Nanog-futures mailing list Nanog-futures@nanog.org http://mailman.nanog.org/mailman/listinfo/nanog-futures
Re: Eye protection in DWDM systems -- what threshold?
On Tue, 9 Jun 2009, Kevin Hodle wrote: Hi Deepak, Most modern DWDM transponders with 160km network side optics will be launching anywhere from -2dBm to +2dBm depending on how warm the laser is, assuming a +2 dBm launch you are looking at around 1.6mW - It might be good to note that there are ZX GBICs (120km variants) that are launching at +2 to +5, so you don't really need a DWDM system to achieve these levels. Care not to expose eyes to this light should be taken whenever handling optics of any kind. -- Mikael Abrahamssonemail: swm...@swm.pp.se
Re: Eye protection in DWDM systems -- what threshold?
I forget who the vendor is now, but their shelves are sealed with a door which, when opened, turns off all the lasers on the shelf so you can work on it, yes, a simple provisioning operation causes an outage / protection switchover!! Dave. Deepak Jain wrote: At what power level do DWDM systems become dangerous to work near (i.e. not staring into any optics, using light meters, etc)? I never see technicians on inside DWDM systems using eye protection, but I see power levels of amps going higher and higher. On a recent meter I saw almost .6mW... Any pointers to a document saying 1550nm becomes dangerous at dbM? Thanks in advance, DJ
Re: Eye protection in DWDM systems -- what threshold?
Deepak Jain dee...@ai.net writes: Any pointers to a document saying 1550nm becomes dangerous at dbM? Even -30 dBM would be pretty dangerous. You sure you don't mean dBm? ;-) -r
Re: Eye protection in DWDM systems -- what threshold?
Reminds me of the old warning/attention sign over a termination rack... WARNING: Do not look into laser with remaining eye. Jeff
Re: Eye protection in DWDM systems -- what threshold?
On Jun 9, 2009, at 12:43 PM, Jeff Kell wrote: Reminds me of the old warning/attention sign over a termination rack... WARNING: Do not look into laser with remaining eye. It will be the last thing you never saw. -- TTFN, patrick
Re: Eye protection in DWDM systems -- what threshold?
On Tue, Jun 09, 2009 at 12:43:09PM -0400, Jeff Kell wrote: Reminds me of the old warning/attention sign over a termination rack... WARNING: Do not look into laser with remaining eye. The only problem with those funny signs is they scare remote hands techs into never looking at a fiber because they don't want to try and understand the difference between a SX GBIC and a class 3 ultra longhaul amp. -- Richard A Steenbergen r...@e-gerbil.net http://www.e-gerbil.net/ras GPG Key ID: 0xF8B12CBC (7535 7F59 8204 ED1F CC1C 53AF 4C41 5ECA F8B1 2CBC)
End User Internet Monitoring for Supervisor recommendations
I have a friend in a shop that is not running any robust Websense like applications. They are looking for a freeware solution or possibly inexpensive solution just for a few requests not for the entire company. I used one a while back but I since have lost the information and that PC that I dropped the application on has since been rebuilt. Does anyone have any recommendations that meet the following requirements: 1) A Supervisor can navigate to a url to see end user's internet activity. 2) Freeware or close to it -- Thank You, Joe
Re: End User Internet Monitoring for Supervisor recommendations
Our Company has been doing some testing with Linux Untangled servers. http://www.untangle.com/ JoeSox wrote: I have a friend in a shop that is not running any robust Websense like applications. They are looking for a freeware solution or possibly inexpensive solution just for a few requests not for the entire company. I used one a while back but I since have lost the information and that PC that I dropped the application on has since been rebuilt. Does anyone have any recommendations that meet the following requirements: 1) A Supervisor can navigate to a url to see end user's internet activity. 2) Freeware or close to it -- - Brian Raaen Network Engineer email: /bra...@zcorum.com/ mailto:bra...@zcorum.com begin:vcard fn:Brian Raaen n:Raaen;Brian org:Zcorum;DataCenter adr:Georgia;;United States of America email;internet:bra...@zcorum.com title:Network Engineer tel;work:770-295-8691 version:2.1 end:vcard
Re: Eye protection in DWDM systems -- what threshold?
On Jun 9, 2009, at 2:06 PM, Richard A Steenbergen wrote: On Tue, Jun 09, 2009 at 12:43:09PM -0400, Jeff Kell wrote: Reminds me of the old warning/attention sign over a termination rack... WARNING: Do not look into laser with remaining eye. The only problem with those funny signs is they scare remote hands techs into never looking at a fiber because they don't want to try and understand the difference between a SX GBIC and a class 3 ultra longhaul amp. Honestly, that is probably better. Kinda like never pointing a gun at anyone, whether you think it is loaded or not. Put another way: I don't trust many HE techs to know the difference between an SX GBIC and a Buck Rogers Laser Cannon. Besides, lots of lasers these days are infrared, so you can't see them anyway. (Hence the last thing you never saw comment.) -- TTFN, patrick
Re: End User Internet Monitoring for Supervisor recommendations
Greetings, On Tue, 9 Jun 2009, Brian Raaen wrote: Our Company has been doing some testing with Linux Untangled servers. http://www.untangle.com/ JoeSox wrote: I have a friend in a shop that is not running any robust Websense like applications. They are looking for a freeware solution or possibly inexpensive solution just for a few requests not for the entire company. I used one a while back but I since have lost the information and that PC that I dropped the application on has since been rebuilt. Does anyone have any recommendations that meet the following requirements: 1) A Supervisor can navigate to a url to see end user's internet activity. 2) Freeware or close to it Also take a look at NTOP. Let's ya see all workstation and router traffic on your LAN and can be viewed with a browser pointed to port :3000 --- Jay Nugent Train how you will Operate, and you will Operate how you were Trained. ++ | Jay Nugent j...@nuge.com(734)484-5105(734)649-0850/Cell | | Nugent Telecommunications [www.nuge.com]| | Internet Consulting/Linux SysAdmin/Engineering Design/ISP Reseller | | ISP Monitoring [www.ispmonitor.org] ISP Modem Performance Monitoring | | Web-Pegasus[www.webpegasus.com] Web Hosting/DNS Hosting/Shell Accts| ++ 2:01pm up 2 days, 7:15, 2 users, load average: 0.00, 0.03, 0.00 begin:vcard fn:Brian Raaen n:Raaen;Brian org:Zcorum;DataCenter adr:Georgia;;United States of America email;internet:bra...@zcorum.com title:Network Engineer tel;work:770-295-8691 version:2.1 end:vcard
Re: Eye protection in DWDM systems -- what threshold?
In a message written on Tue, Jun 09, 2009 at 01:06:42PM -0500, Richard A Steenbergen wrote: The only problem with those funny signs is they scare remote hands techs into never looking at a fiber because they don't want to try and understand the difference between a SX GBIC and a class 3 ultra longhaul amp. Save your poor techs eyes, and make them more reliable all at the same time: http://search.newport.com/?sku=F-IRC2-F -- Leo Bicknell - bickn...@ufp.org - CCIE 3440 PGP keys at http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/ pgpl6d7jTtyn0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Traceroute management
My company uses it's internet connection primarily for VPN tunneling. I have always wanted a tool that I can enter the peer ip addresses and it will every 8 or 12 hours run a traceroute and log it so I can build historical maps of the path our traffic is taking. Has anyone ever seen any apps like this, preferably something that is free. Thanks
RE: Traceroute management
Try SmokePing (which includes SmokeTrace now): http://oss.oetiker.ch/smokeping/ You could also just use a cronjob and output the results to a flat file or database if you prefer something home grown. -Scott -Original Message- From: Dylan Ebner [mailto:dylan.eb...@crlmed.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 3:28 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Traceroute management My company uses it's internet connection primarily for VPN tunneling. I have always wanted a tool that I can enter the peer ip addresses and it will every 8 or 12 hours run a traceroute and log it so I can build historical maps of the path our traffic is taking. Has anyone ever seen any apps like this, preferably something that is free. Thanks
RE: Traceroute management
BGPlay might be what you are looking for. I believe you can replay certain time periods. http://bgplay.routeviews.org/bgplay/ Jason -Original Message- From: Scott Berkman [mailto:sc...@sberkman.net] Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 3:45 PM To: 'Dylan Ebner'; nanog@nanog.org Subject: RE: Traceroute management Try SmokePing (which includes SmokeTrace now): http://oss.oetiker.ch/smokeping/ You could also just use a cronjob and output the results to a flat file or database if you prefer something home grown. -Scott -Original Message- From: Dylan Ebner [mailto:dylan.eb...@crlmed.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 3:28 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Traceroute management My company uses it's internet connection primarily for VPN tunneling. I have always wanted a tool that I can enter the peer ip addresses and it will every 8 or 12 hours run a traceroute and log it so I can build historical maps of the path our traffic is taking. Has anyone ever seen any apps like this, preferably something that is free. Thanks
Re: Eye protection in DWDM systems -- what threshold?
Leo Bicknell wrote: In a message written on Tue, Jun 09, 2009 at 01:06:42PM -0500, Richard A Steenbergen wrote: The only problem with those funny signs is they scare remote hands techs into never looking at a fiber because they don't want to try and understand the difference between a SX GBIC and a class 3 ultra longhaul amp. Save your poor techs eyes, and make them more reliable all at the same time: http://search.newport.com/?sku=F-IRC2-F This conversation has gone places I didn't expect. Leo, that card is pretty cool, but for a few hundred $$ more, you can get a light meter (if someone is smart enough to use the card...) Does anyone *use* any eye protection (other that not looking at the light, turning off the light etc) -- I mean like protective goggles, etc, when doing simple things like adding/removing patch cables from an SMF patch panel. I get that if you *know* the gear you are using has a Class 3 laser on it, you should be careful... but when you are patching it into a building's cable plant and some schmuck is patching the last leg in for you (or has pulled it accidentally, etc).. um, don't look at it is our community's BCP? DJ
Re: Traceroute management
Hmm, take a look at pingplotter Arie On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 10:28 PM, Dylan Ebner dylan.eb...@crlmed.com wrote: My company uses it's internet connection primarily for VPN tunneling. I have always wanted a tool that I can enter the peer ip addresses and it will every 8 or 12 hours run a traceroute and log it so I can build historical maps of the path our traffic is taking. Has anyone ever seen any apps like this, preferably something that is free. Thanks
RE: Multi site BGP Routing design
I am thinking the multiple ASN route is the cleanest but the idea of letting a default gateway (via static route maybe) out the local upstream connection to reach the other site when the backnet link is down sounds like it would work with minimal to no headaches but it just some how seems like a duct tape job. Does this sort of technique have any significant flaws or concerns associated with it? It's a static route, so you're never sure the remote end (upstream router) is truly alive. In this respect, it would be much better to receive default route over BGP (if the upstream carrier is willing to implement it). On the other hand, it's a last-resort mechanism, so you'd only use it if everything else fails (and you don't care how reliable it is). Just make sure it's well documented and understood ... and think about what will happen when you add a third carrier to one of the sites. Last but not least, you could use reliable static routing (static route tied to ping tests). http://blog.ioshints.info/2007/02/reliable-static-routing.html http://blog.ioshints.info/search?q=static+routing Just my $0.002 :) Ivan http://www.ioshints.info/about http://blog.ioshints.info/
Re: Eye protection in DWDM systems -- what threshold?
On Tue, Jun 09, 2009 at 04:06:58PM -0400, Deepak Jain wrote: This conversation has gone places I didn't expect. Leo, that card is pretty cool, but for a few hundred $$ more, you can get a light meter (if someone is smart enough to use the card...) Now if only you could train people to use them... If I had a nickel for every time an Equinix tech has told me I'm sending them a +67dBm signal I'd be able to actually buy the laser to do that. Does anyone *use* any eye protection (other that not looking at the light, turning off the light etc) -- I mean like protective goggles, etc, when doing simple things like adding/removing patch cables from an SMF patch panel. I get that if you *know* the gear you are using has a Class 3 laser on it, you should be careful... but when you are patching it into a building's cable plant and some schmuck is patching the last leg in for you (or has pulled it accidentally, etc).. um, don't look at it is our community's BCP? Come on, the closest thing to a dangerous laser you're going to find in most colos is the laser pointer built in to the vendor pen schwag you picked up at the last beer and gear. The class 3 lasers are few and far between, and copiously labeled when you do come across them. Spend 5 minutes teaching people what the laser classes and how how to read the label. -- Richard A Steenbergen r...@e-gerbil.net http://www.e-gerbil.net/ras GPG Key ID: 0xF8B12CBC (7535 7F59 8204 ED1F CC1C 53AF 4C41 5ECA F8B1 2CBC)
Re: Eye protection in DWDM systems -- what threshold?
Deepak Jain wrote: Does anyone *use* any eye protection (other that not looking at the light, turning off the light etc) -- I mean like protective goggles, etc, when doing simple things like adding/removing patch cables from an SMF patch panel. There are osha requirements and ansi standards. ANSI Z136.1 - Safe Use of Lasers ANSI Z136.2 - Safe Use of Lasers in Optical Fiber Communication Systems Utilizing Laser Diode and LED Sources I get that if you *know* the gear you are using has a Class 3 laser on it, you should be careful... but when you are patching it into a building's cable plant and some schmuck is patching the last leg in for you (or has pulled it accidentally, etc).. um, don't look at it is our community's BCP? Actually that's pretty much the requirement for 3r, for 3b and 4 the requirements for eye protection and manual safety systems are much higher. All this high power stuff is rather rare (your cisco ons for example is a class 1 laser product), unless you terminate one end of a submarine system you'll likely never see a class 4 laser in this context. I tend to carry around extra dust protection boots in the tool bag to recover the exposed sc/st plugs that seem to accumulate in panels that people touch a lot, mostly, it protects the ends of the ferrules. DJ
Re: Eye protection in DWDM systems -- what threshold?
On Tue, Jun 09, 2009 at 04:06:58PM -0400, Deepak Jain wrote: This conversation has gone places I didn't expect. Leo, that card is pretty cool, but for a few hundred $$ more, you can get a light meter (if someone is smart enough to use the card...) In a pinch the camera on a MacBook pro can be used to detect presence of IR light. Here's light from a 10Gbase-LR xenpak: http://www.majhost.com/gallery/kl/Macbook/macbook-laser-camera.jpg It's easier to see when previewing in real time than in the static picture but it does require careful aim. - Kevin
ICSI Netalyzr launch
Folks, you might be interested in checking out a network monitoring tool we launched today, Netalyzr. It's a Java applet you can run by surfing to netalyzr.com. It aims to measure a bunch of the properties of and end user's network access, particularly looking for transparent modifications (e.g., hidden proxies), connectivity restrictions, and some security issues (e.g., whether the DNS resolver is vulnerable to the Kaminsky attack). We've had several thousand users run it today so far, so you may be hearing about reports your customers have gotten from it. You can see a sample report at: http://netalyzr.icsi.berkeley.edu/restore/id=example-session - Vern
Re: Traceroute management
mon ( http://mon.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Main_Page ) comes with traceroute.monitor It keeps a state file of current routes and logs only changes. You can specify equivalent hops, hops to ignore, StopAt addresses, and UnexpectedHops. Since it is part of mon, it is easy to alert on a route change. The IgnoreHop feature was probably added after the mon release. I can provide a newer version if IgnoreHop would be useful. Jon
Re: Eye protection in DWDM systems -- what threshold?
- Original Message - From: Kevin Loch kl...@kl.net Cc: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 12:17 PM Subject: Re: Eye protection in DWDM systems -- what threshold? In a pinch the camera on a MacBook pro can be used to detect presence of IR light. Here's light from a 10Gbase-LR xenpak: http://www.majhost.com/gallery/kl/Macbook/macbook-laser-camera.jpg It's easier to see when previewing in real time than in the static picture but it does require careful aim. - Kevin Most 'cell phone' cameras also detect IR. Handy to verify that A/V equipment Remotes are working. --Michael
