RE: What's the meaning of virtual POP ?

[Siegel, David]

Different providers use the term with different definitions, but this is how we 
use it:

At Level 3, a VPOP is a POP that we operate under someone else's license.  For 
example, we have VPOPs in a number of markets throughout the Asia Pacific 
region, including countries like China, Vietnam, Indonesia, and others.  We are 
buying a service from a partner that has an operating license in that country 
where they provide routers, entrance facilities, colo and other related 
infrastructure items, but we otherwise operate it as a full POP.  It's in our 
OSS/BSS systems like any other location.

As far as our customers can tell, there is nothing virtual about it.  It looks 
like any other node on our network, so the distinction is purely internal to 
our company and how we have to manage support for the site.

Dave


-Original Message-
From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Mark Tinka
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 2:58 AM
To: Yucong Sun ; Rod Beck 
; William Herrin 
Cc: NANOG 
Subject: Re: What's the meaning of virtual POP ?



On 24/Aug/16 01:20, Yucong Sun wrote:

> Thanks for the explanation.
>
> I understand on layer 2 or like william point out (on anything other 
> than
> IP) it make total sense.
>
> However on layer 3, with existing transit bandwith with said provider 
> it would be redudant. (Assume The one you wanted peer at site b is 
> already peering with your provider).

The term "virtual PoP" is more commercial than it is technical.

As William mentioned, you are providing services via someone else's 
infrastructure. It is between you and that other network to determine how much 
of their infrastructure you will depend on.

But ultimately, the objective is for you to reduce your exposure in what you 
would consider a new venture that still needs some proofing.

Mark.

Re: Cisco Nexus vPC-VOIP Issues

[Anurag Bhatia]

Hi Santosh


Likely it's disabled arp across broadcast (assuming both servers are on
same broadcast domain). One can comment on it after looking at config of
the port. I have seen similar case in some hosting providers who run shared
vlans across customers and they block direct traffic among those servers.
They usually put a static route of that pool towards gateway.

So e.g you have router on 10.10.10.1 and server 1 on 10.10.10.10, server 2
on 10.10.10.20. Now if direct layer 2 traffic is not allowed by tweaking
broadcast domain, then you can route traffic from say server 1
(10.10.10.10) needs to speak to server 2 (10.10.10.20) then you can put
10.10.10.0/24 static via 10.10.10.1. Whether or not that's a good idea
depends heavily on the use case.

I hope this will help.


On Mon 15 Aug, 2016, 17:26 nico nanog,  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I cannot see any image in attachment.
>
> If you can ping from outside and not between them, wild guess it's not a
> L2 pbm.
>
> Are you able to see the arp of srv2 from srv1 ( and vice-versa )
>
> Without more info ( or it's maybe on the image I cannot see ) I would
> look in ACL somewhere/firewall on srv
>
>
> Rgd,
> Nico
>
>
> On 08/14/2016 11:59 PM, sathish kumar Ippani wrote:
> > Hello All,
> >
> > Thank you all in advance.
> >
> > We have connected two nexus 3048 Switches and two l2 Switches as below
> > using vPC and LACP.
> >
> > We have not seen any issues apart from one of VOIP server connected to
> > Switch 1 has lost access to VOIP Server connected Switch 2 and vice
> versa.
> >
> > Where I am able to ping both from Global. Can you please let me know what
> > is went wrong here.
> >
> >
> > [image: Inline image 2]
> >
>
>
> --
> Try and fail but never fail to try
>
> --
Anurag Bhatia
http://anuragbhatia.com

Re: Managed global low latency network with any to any connectivity

[Arqam Gadit]

Thanks for the input everyone :)

@Mikael, Roderick,

Unlike HFT and financial markets, the applications we have to support are
not microsecond-sensitive. Infact, a +-10ms difference from 'least
possible' is acceptable provided that the connection is stable.

So basically I am looking for most cost-effective ways to achieve that
using existing products/services.

@Ryan,
I'll get in touch with AT guys. Thanks!

Arqam

On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 8:45 PM, Rod Beck 
wrote:

> There are standard routes and there are low latency routes that serve
> mostly traders. The latter charge a big premium. He said the lowest
> possible latency. That is a specialty market where the SLAs are in
> microseconds, not milliseconds. Many carriers have a division for ultra low
> latency. Hibernia Atlantic built express which is just used by financial
> traders. No one else can afford it. And since low latency is the name of
> the game, it means waves or SDH or SONET. Not Ethernet switching.
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Roderick.
>
>
> --
> *From:* NANOG  on behalf of Ryan, Spencer <
> sr...@arbor.net>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 24, 2016 5:20 PM
> *To:* Arqam Gadit; nanog@nanog.org
> *Subject:* Re: Managed global low latency network with any to any
> connectivity
>
> AT's AVPN product (Layer 3 VPN/"MPLS") does any-any routing and
> constantly changes L3 hops for the best pathing.
>
>
> I've used the service at a few jobs and the product itself is quite good.
> Dealing with them for things like MACD's can be...frustrating.
>
>
> We've never had a location they couldn't service either directly or via
> another last mile carrier.
>
>
> Spencer Ryan | Senior Systems Administrator | sr...@arbor.net<
> mailto:sr...@arbor.net >
> Arbor Networks
> +1.734.794.5033 (d) | +1.734.846.2053 (m)
> www.arbornetworks.com
>
>
> 
> From: NANOG  on behalf of Arqam Gadit <
> gadit.ar...@gmail.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 11:13:56 AM
> To: nanog@nanog.org
> Subject: Managed global low latency network with any to any connectivity
>
> Hello guys,
>
> I am looking for a global network with:
>
>- lowest possible latency
>- lowest possible jitter (packet loss and latency variation)
>- lowest possible monetary cost
>
> The few providers I have talked to until now, they all provide a
> point-to-point low latency link. However, what I am looking for is
> any-to-any connectivity so I can get from one point to another in least
> possible time and least possible cost.
>
> Would appreciate if you guys can point me in the right direction.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Arqam
>

XO routing issue?

[Velocity Lists]

I am looking for an XO contact,
I appear to be having a routing issue with my traffic going through their
network.


Velocity Online
850-205-4638

Re: What's the meaning of virtual POP ?

[Dave Cohen]

The key is really that it could mean different things for different providers, 
although I would agree that the gist is that the location is enabled to look 
and feel like a POP without the provider installing the full complement of 
requisite hardware. A provider I worked at in the past, for example, defined a 
virtual POP as a non-POP location at which POP pricing was offered - the actual 
method of delivery there being both irrelevant to it being defined that way and 
unimportant to the concept as a whole. It let the company be price-competitive 
with others that may have made more extensive investments in hardware at 
higher-demand locations, and it was purely based on a business justification. 
There was no specific technical definition (although in reality we were 
transparent with our customers about methodology anyway) - this contrasts with 
other providers that are clearly using it in a way that does define a technical 
approach. It's just an approach specific to that provider.

> On Aug 23, 2016, at 6:51 PM, Rod Beck  wrote:
> 
> Yes, except it is done via Switched Ethernet and VLANs. The idea behind 
> virtual peering. Your gear is in Amsterdam and someone gives you VLANs to 
> LINX.
> 
> 
> - R.
> 
> 
> 
> From: NANOG  on behalf of William Herrin 
> 
> Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 12:46 AM
> To: Yucong Sun
> Cc: NANOG
> Subject: Re: What's the meaning of virtual POP ?
> 
>> On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 6:31 PM, Yucong Sun  wrote:
>> I came across the idea of the virtual POP  , but the website for them have
>> way too much jargon to me[1][2][3], can someone explain it like i'm five
>> (:-D)?
> 
> A virtual Point Of Presence means that you provide services at a
> location via someone else's facilities.
> 
> The classic example was extending a PRI for dialup modems inside a
> particular local calling area via a point-to-point T1 back to your
> modem bank somewhere else that would have been a long distance call
> for those customers. If you put a modem bank in their local calling
> area, it's a POP. If you extend the circuit from their local calling
> area back to your modem bank elsewhere, it's a virtual POP.
> 
> Modern examples of virtual POPs are much fancier but it's the same basic idea.
> 
> 
>> 1. Is virtual POP basically a L2VPN?
> 
> It can be. Depends on what service you're extending from the "virtual" 
> location.
> 
> 
>> 2. Do such vPOP have guaranteed latency/bandwidth?
> 
> Depends on what you're extending and how.
> 
> 
>> 3. Is that really useful?
> 
> It can be. It can let you dip your toes in a market without a large
> up-front investment in equipment and backhaul.
> 
> Regards,
> Bill Herrin
> 
> 
> --
> William Herrin  her...@dirtside.com  b...@herrin.us
> Owner, Dirtside Systems . Web: 
> Dirtside Systems
> www.dirtside.com
> Welcome! You are our 370,765 th guest. Dirtside builds ground systems and 
> ground system software for the satellite and mobile communications industries.
> 
> 

RE: Managed global low latency network with any to any connectivity

[Naslund, Steve]

The real issue in the request is that this person is looking for any-to-any 
connectivity which will require either a single L2 switching domain or a L3 
routing domain.  While waves, SDH, and SONET might be your layer one transport 
there are two major factors that are going to affect latency and jitter the 
most.  


1. Geography - Any point to any point has a minimum latency due to simple 
mileage/medium constraints.  You cannot possibly go any faster than the 
velocity of propagation over the media of your choice.  For example, lowest 
latency at layer 1 would probably be P2P microwave (which has a faster velocity 
of propagation than light over fiber) but that would not be an effective way to 
cross the Pacific ocean.

2. Routing/Switching queuing latency - If you want real any to any connectivity 
you need routing or switching logic which takes time.

For example, lowest latency at layer 1 would probably be P2P microwave (which 
has a faster velocity of propagation than fiber) but that would not be an 
effective way to cross the Pacific ocean.

If you are doing an MPLS VPN architecture within the US, your routing/switching 
latency are probably going to be more significant than the layer one technology 
but when you go transoceanic your layer 1 latency becomes more significant.  
The differences in electrical, free RF or optical (like microwave), and optical 
over fiber will vary by something like 30-40% of the speed of light over the 
mileage of the link.  The routing/switching of an any-to-any architecture will 
probably dwarf most of the differences in media.

Steven Naslund
Chicago IL






-Original Message-
From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Rod Beck
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 10:45 AM
To: Ryan, Spencer; Arqam Gadit; nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: Managed global low latency network with any to any connectivity

There are standard routes and there are low latency routes that serve mostly 
traders. The latter charge a big premium. He said the lowest possible latency. 
That is a specialty market where the SLAs are in microseconds, not 
milliseconds. Many carriers have a division for ultra low latency. Hibernia 
Atlantic built express which is just used by financial traders. No one else can 
afford it. And since low latency is the name of the game, it means waves or SDH 
or SONET. Not Ethernet switching.


Regards,


Roderick.

RE: Managed global low latency network with any to any connectivity

[Naslund, Steve]

This is kind of the holy grail of networks you are looking for.  You have to be 
a lot more specific than global to really shop this.  As far as I know (and I 
have looked a lot), there is not one network that can get you to most countries 
with the best performance.  For example, China is a particular case of a 
limited number of carriers delivering the last mile.  There are a lot of 
countries that also have nationalized monopolies that can't be avoided.  Best 
idea is to put together an RFP listing the countries you are interested in with 
the SLA you want.  Various providers are teamed with other providers to provide 
a complete solution but there will definitely be carriers stronger in certain 
regions.

If you are talking about any-to-any connectivity on a global basis you are 
looking at an MPLS VPN type of network in order to deal with last mile 
transport over various providers.  In my experience that is about the only way 
to get a real global any-to-any private network.

Also, the old saying: "cheap, reliable, fast; pick any two" really applies in 
this case.




Steven Naslund
Chicago IL





From: NANOG  on behalf of Arqam Gadit 

Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 5:13 PM
To: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Managed global low latency network with any to any connectivity

Hello guys,

I am looking for a global network with:

   - lowest possible latency
   - lowest possible jitter (packet loss and latency variation)
   - lowest possible monetary cost

The few providers I have talked to until now, they all provide a point-to-point 
low latency link. However, what I am looking for is any-to-any connectivity so 
I can get from one point to another in least possible time and least possible 
cost.

Would appreciate if you guys can point me in the right direction.

Thanks!

Arqam

Re: Managed global low latency network with any to any connectivity

[Rod Beck]

There are standard routes and there are low latency routes that serve mostly 
traders. The latter charge a big premium. He said the lowest possible latency. 
That is a specialty market where the SLAs are in microseconds, not 
milliseconds. Many carriers have a division for ultra low latency. Hibernia 
Atlantic built express which is just used by financial traders. No one else can 
afford it. And since low latency is the name of the game, it means waves or SDH 
or SONET. Not Ethernet switching.


Regards,


Roderick.



From: NANOG  on behalf of Ryan, Spencer 

Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 5:20 PM
To: Arqam Gadit; nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: Managed global low latency network with any to any connectivity

AT's AVPN product (Layer 3 VPN/"MPLS") does any-any routing and constantly 
changes L3 hops for the best pathing.


I've used the service at a few jobs and the product itself is quite good. 
Dealing with them for things like MACD's can be...frustrating.


We've never had a location they couldn't service either directly or via another 
last mile carrier.


Spencer Ryan | Senior Systems Administrator | 
sr...@arbor.net
Arbor Networks
+1.734.794.5033 (d) | +1.734.846.2053 (m)
www.arbornetworks.com>



From: NANOG  on behalf of Arqam Gadit 

Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 11:13:56 AM
To: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Managed global low latency network with any to any connectivity

Hello guys,

I am looking for a global network with:

   - lowest possible latency
   - lowest possible jitter (packet loss and latency variation)
   - lowest possible monetary cost

The few providers I have talked to until now, they all provide a
point-to-point low latency link. However, what I am looking for is
any-to-any connectivity so I can get from one point to another in least
possible time and least possible cost.

Would appreciate if you guys can point me in the right direction.

Thanks!

Arqam

Re: Managed global low latency network with any to any connectivity

[Rod Beck]

So you want point-to-multipoint which means Switched Ethernet. But ultra 
latency traders don't want the extra latency associated with Switched Ethernet. 
And they dominate the demand for ultra-low latency.


Regards,


Roderick.

United Cable Company


From: NANOG  on behalf of Arqam Gadit 

Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 5:13 PM
To: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Managed global low latency network with any to any connectivity

Hello guys,

I am looking for a global network with:

   - lowest possible latency
   - lowest possible jitter (packet loss and latency variation)
   - lowest possible monetary cost

The few providers I have talked to until now, they all provide a
point-to-point low latency link. However, what I am looking for is
any-to-any connectivity so I can get from one point to another in least
possible time and least possible cost.

Would appreciate if you guys can point me in the right direction.

Thanks!

Arqam

Re: Managed global low latency network with any to any connectivity

[Mikael Abrahamsson]

On Wed, 24 Aug 2016, Arqam Gadit wrote:


Hello guys,

I am looking for a global network with:

  - lowest possible latency
  - lowest possible jitter (packet loss and latency variation)
  - lowest possible monetary cost

The few providers I have talked to until now, they all provide a
point-to-point low latency link. However, what I am looking for is
any-to-any connectivity so I can get from one point to another in least
possible time and least possible cost.

Would appreciate if you guys can point me in the right direction.


The right direction is to decide what is most important to you. There is 
no network in the world that provides all of your criteria at once.


Some people are paying really good money for low latency/PDV. Some other 
people are paying little money, but in return get low latency and PDV.


So what's most important to you? Money or network characteristics?

--
Mikael Abrahamssonemail: swm...@swm.pp.se

Re: Managed global low latency network with any to any connectivity

[Ryan, Spencer]

AT's AVPN product (Layer 3 VPN/"MPLS") does any-any routing and constantly 
changes L3 hops for the best pathing.


I've used the service at a few jobs and the product itself is quite good. 
Dealing with them for things like MACD's can be...frustrating.


We've never had a location they couldn't service either directly or via another 
last mile carrier.


Spencer Ryan | Senior Systems Administrator | 
sr...@arbor.net
Arbor Networks
+1.734.794.5033 (d) | +1.734.846.2053 (m)
www.arbornetworks.com



From: NANOG  on behalf of Arqam Gadit 

Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 11:13:56 AM
To: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Managed global low latency network with any to any connectivity

Hello guys,

I am looking for a global network with:

   - lowest possible latency
   - lowest possible jitter (packet loss and latency variation)
   - lowest possible monetary cost

The few providers I have talked to until now, they all provide a
point-to-point low latency link. However, what I am looking for is
any-to-any connectivity so I can get from one point to another in least
possible time and least possible cost.

Would appreciate if you guys can point me in the right direction.

Thanks!

Arqam

Re: What's the meaning of virtual POP ?

[Rod Beck]

Yes, except it is done via Switched Ethernet and VLANs. The idea behind virtual 
peering. Your gear is in Amsterdam and someone gives you VLANs to LINX.


- R.



From: NANOG  on behalf of William Herrin 

Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 12:46 AM
To: Yucong Sun
Cc: NANOG
Subject: Re: What's the meaning of virtual POP ?

On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 6:31 PM, Yucong Sun  wrote:
> I came across the idea of the virtual POP  , but the website for them have
> way too much jargon to me[1][2][3], can someone explain it like i'm five
> (:-D)?

A virtual Point Of Presence means that you provide services at a
location via someone else's facilities.

The classic example was extending a PRI for dialup modems inside a
particular local calling area via a point-to-point T1 back to your
modem bank somewhere else that would have been a long distance call
for those customers. If you put a modem bank in their local calling
area, it's a POP. If you extend the circuit from their local calling
area back to your modem bank elsewhere, it's a virtual POP.

Modern examples of virtual POPs are much fancier but it's the same basic idea.


> 1. Is virtual POP basically a L2VPN?

It can be. Depends on what service you're extending from the "virtual" location.


> 2. Do such vPOP have guaranteed latency/bandwidth?

Depends on what you're extending and how.


> 3. Is that really useful?

It can be. It can let you dip your toes in a market without a large
up-front investment in equipment and backhaul.

Regards,
Bill Herrin


--
William Herrin  her...@dirtside.com  b...@herrin.us
Owner, Dirtside Systems . Web: 
Dirtside Systems
www.dirtside.com
Welcome! You are our 370,765 th guest. Dirtside builds ground systems and 
ground system software for the satellite and mobile communications industries.

Managed global low latency network with any to any connectivity

[Arqam Gadit]

Hello guys,

I am looking for a global network with:

   - lowest possible latency
   - lowest possible jitter (packet loss and latency variation)
   - lowest possible monetary cost

The few providers I have talked to until now, they all provide a
point-to-point low latency link. However, what I am looking for is
any-to-any connectivity so I can get from one point to another in least
possible time and least possible cost.

Would appreciate if you guys can point me in the right direction.

Thanks!

Arqam

Re: What's the meaning of virtual POP ?

[Mark Tinka]

On 24/Aug/16 01:20, Yucong Sun wrote:

> Thanks for the explanation.
>
> I understand on layer 2 or like william point out (on anything other than
> IP) it make total sense.
>
> However on layer 3, with existing transit bandwith with said provider it
> would be redudant. (Assume The one you wanted peer at site b is already
> peering with your provider).

The term "virtual PoP" is more commercial than it is technical.

As William mentioned, you are providing services via someone else's
infrastructure. It is between you and that other network to determine
how much of their infrastructure you will depend on.

But ultimately, the objective is for you to reduce your exposure in what
you would consider a new venture that still needs some proofing.

Mark.

AS6661 Post LU Contact

[Marco Paesani]

Please contact me off list.
Thanks !
Kind regards,

Marco Paesani


Skype: mpaesani
Mobile: +39 348 6019349
Success depends on the right choice !
Email: ma...@paesani.it