RE: It's been 20 years today (Oct 16, UTC). Hard to believe.

[Keith Medcalf]

>For example just because they sent you a seemingly malformed HTTP
>request, and given that 4xx is for error codes, doesn't mean you
>should return "420 You must be high!" and expect to be understood.

Actually, you can, and the sender of the request MUST understand.
The relevant part of the applicable RFC says:

   HTTP status codes are extensible.  HTTP clients are not required to
   understand the meaning of all registered status codes, though such
   understanding is obviously desirable.  However, a client MUST
   understand the class of any status code, as indicated by the first
   digit, and treat an unrecognized status code as being equivalent to
   the x00 status code of that class, with the exception that a
   recipient MUST NOT cache a response with an unrecognized status code.

---
The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven says a 
lot about anticipated traffic volume.

Re: It's been 20 years today (Oct 16, UTC). Hard to believe.

[Robert Brockway]

On Tue, 16 Oct 2018, Michael Thomas wrote:

I believe that the IETF party line these days is that Postel was wrong on 
this point. Security is one consideration, but there are others.


Postel's Law is about robustness of network communications.  As such it 
can *increase* network security by improving availability [CIA triad] 
although it could potentially reduce confidentiality and integrity in some 
circumstances.  Whether or not Postel's Law improves or degrades security 
would need to be assessed on a case by case basis.


Cheers,

Rob

Re: It's been 20 years today (Oct 16, UTC). Hard to believe.

[Michael Thomas]

On 10/16/2018 08:36 PM, Scott Brim wrote:



On Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 22:37 Michael Thomas > wrote:


I believe that the IETF party line these days is that Postel was
wrong
on this point. Security is one consideration, but there are others.

Mike


I saw just a small swing of the pendulum toward the center, a nuanced 
meaning for "liberal". The adage wasn't tossed out. Operationally it 
can't be.




All of the security types were pretty unanimous when this came up during 
all of the dkim stuff i worked on. I was a fan, and I got schooled.


Mike

Re: It's been 20 years today (Oct 16, UTC). Hard to believe.

[Michael Thomas]

On 10/16/2018 08:20 PM, b...@theworld.com wrote:

On October 16, 2018 at 19:35 m...@mtcc.com (Michael Thomas) wrote:
  > I believe that the IETF party line these days is that Postel was wrong
  > on this point. Security is one consideration, but there are others.

Security fits into all this, being liberal in what you accept doesn't
mean you do whatever they ask.

Quite the contrary it means make sure your code doesn't roll over dead
or misbehaving just because you received an unexpected input.


That's not the same thing. That's never acceptable. Trying to educe what 
a sender really meant is a good way to create exploitable spaghetti 
though. But don't take my word for it, reach out to people who pay more 
attention to such things than me.


Mike

Re: It's been 20 years today (Oct 16, UTC). Hard to believe.

[Scott Brim]

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 22:37 Michael Thomas  wrote:

> I believe that the IETF party line these days is that Postel was wrong
> on this point. Security is one consideration, but there are others.
>
> Mike
>

I saw just a small swing of the pendulum toward the center, a nuanced
meaning for "liberal". The adage wasn't tossed out. Operationally it can't
be.

Scott

>

Re: It's been 20 years today (Oct 16, UTC). Hard to believe.

[bzs]

On October 16, 2018 at 19:35 m...@mtcc.com (Michael Thomas) wrote:
 > I believe that the IETF party line these days is that Postel was wrong 
 > on this point. Security is one consideration, but there are others.

Security fits into all this, being liberal in what you accept doesn't
mean you do whatever they ask.

Quite the contrary it means make sure your code doesn't roll over dead
or misbehaving just because you received an unexpected input.

Not doing that was exactly what allowed for example buffer overflow
attacks.

The target software wasn't liberal in what it accepts which is to say
anticipated that someone might send them a very long string and should
either buffer it correctly or truncate it. They assumed they'd only be
sent reasonably short strings.

 > Mike
 > 
 > On 10/16/2018 07:18 PM, b...@theworld.com wrote:
 > > What it's trying to say is that you have control over your own code
 > > but not others', in general.
 > >
 > > So make your own code (etc) robust and forgiving since you can't edit
 > > others' code to conform to your own understanding of what they should
 > > be sending you.
 > >
 > > I suppose that pre-dates github but nonetheless much of the code which
 > > generates bits flung at you is proprietary and otherwise out of your
 > > control but what you can control is your code's reaction to it.
 > >
 > > And of course the bits you generate which should try to make
 > > conservative assumptions about what they might accept and interpret as
 > > you expect.
 > >
 > > For example just because they sent you a seemingly malformed HTTP
 > > request, and given that 4xx is for error codes, doesn't mean you
 > > should return "420 You must be high!" and expect to be understood.
 > >

-- 
-Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die| b...@theworld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD   | 800-THE-WRLD
The World: Since 1989  | A Public Information Utility | *oo*

RE: Youtube Outage

[Aaron Gould]

Back up in south central texas

 

-Aaron

 

From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces+aaron1=gvtc@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Bryce 
Wilson
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 9:42 PM
To: Ishmael Rufus
Cc: NANOG
Subject: Re: Youtube Outage

 

I concur, all of my systems have it as back up.

Thanks ~ Bryce Wilson, AS202313


On Oct 16, 2018, at 7:40 PM, Ishmael Rufus  wrote:

Should be coming back online

 

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 9:35 PM Ben Cannon  wrote:

Confirmed outage in Windsor CA

-Ben


On Oct 16, 2018, at 7:15 PM, Charles Mills  wrote:

The reports I've seen showing it as a worldwide outage.  

 

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 10:14 PM Nathan Brookfield 
 wrote:

Australia too….

 

From: NANOG  On Behalf Of Oliver O'Boyle
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 1:08 PM
To: marshall.euba...@gmail.com
Cc: North American Network Operators' Group 
Subject: Re: Youtube Outage

 

Same in Montreal.

 

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 9:52 PM Marshall Eubanks  
wrote:

Reports (and humor) are flooding twitter.
On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 9:44 PM Ross Tajvar  wrote:
>
> You beat my email by seconds. Yes, it is widespread.
>
> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 9:39 PM, Kenneth McRae via NANOG  
> wrote:
>>
>> Is this widespread?
>
>




 

-- 

:o@>

 

Re: Youtube Outage

[Bryce Wilson]

I concur, all of my systems have it as back up.

Thanks ~ Bryce Wilson, AS202313

> On Oct 16, 2018, at 7:40 PM, Ishmael Rufus  wrote:
> 
> Should be coming back online
> 
>> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 9:35 PM Ben Cannon  wrote:
>> Confirmed outage in Windsor CA
>> 
>> -Ben
>> 
>>> On Oct 16, 2018, at 7:15 PM, Charles Mills  wrote:
>>> 
>>> The reports I've seen showing it as a worldwide outage.  
>>> 
 On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 10:14 PM Nathan Brookfield 
  wrote:
 Australia too….
 
  
 
 From: NANOG  On Behalf Of Oliver O'Boyle
 Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 1:08 PM
 To: marshall.euba...@gmail.com
 Cc: North American Network Operators' Group 
 Subject: Re: Youtube Outage
 
  
 
 Same in Montreal.
 
  
 
 On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 9:52 PM Marshall Eubanks 
  wrote:
 
 Reports (and humor) are flooding twitter.
 On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 9:44 PM Ross Tajvar  wrote:
 >
 > You beat my email by seconds. Yes, it is widespread.
 >
 > On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 9:39 PM, Kenneth McRae via NANOG 
 >  wrote:
 >>
 >> Is this widespread?
 >
 >
 
 
 
  
 
 --
 
 :o@>
 
  

Re: Youtube Outage

[Ishmael Rufus]

Should be coming back online

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 9:35 PM Ben Cannon  wrote:

> Confirmed outage in Windsor CA
>
> -Ben
>
> On Oct 16, 2018, at 7:15 PM, Charles Mills  wrote:
>
> The reports I've seen showing it as a worldwide outage.
>
> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 10:14 PM Nathan Brookfield <
> nathan.brookfi...@simtronic.com.au> wrote:
>
>> Australia too….
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* NANOG  *On Behalf Of *Oliver O'Boyle
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 17, 2018 1:08 PM
>> *To:* marshall.euba...@gmail.com
>> *Cc:* North American Network Operators' Group 
>> *Subject:* Re: Youtube Outage
>>
>>
>>
>> Same in Montreal.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 9:52 PM Marshall Eubanks <
>> marshall.euba...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Reports (and humor) are flooding twitter.
>> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 9:44 PM Ross Tajvar  wrote:
>> >
>> > You beat my email by seconds. Yes, it is widespread.
>> >
>> > On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 9:39 PM, Kenneth McRae via NANOG <
>> nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Is this widespread?
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> :o@>
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: It's been 20 years today (Oct 16, UTC). Hard to believe.

[Michael Thomas]

I believe that the IETF party line these days is that Postel was wrong 
on this point. Security is one consideration, but there are others.


Mike

On 10/16/2018 07:18 PM, b...@theworld.com wrote:

What it's trying to say is that you have control over your own code
but not others', in general.

So make your own code (etc) robust and forgiving since you can't edit
others' code to conform to your own understanding of what they should
be sending you.

I suppose that pre-dates github but nonetheless much of the code which
generates bits flung at you is proprietary and otherwise out of your
control but what you can control is your code's reaction to it.

And of course the bits you generate which should try to make
conservative assumptions about what they might accept and interpret as
you expect.

For example just because they sent you a seemingly malformed HTTP
request, and given that 4xx is for error codes, doesn't mean you
should return "420 You must be high!" and expect to be understood.

Re: Youtube Outage

[Ben Cannon]

Confirmed outage in Windsor CA

-Ben

> On Oct 16, 2018, at 7:15 PM, Charles Mills  wrote:
> 
> The reports I've seen showing it as a worldwide outage.  
> 
>> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 10:14 PM Nathan Brookfield 
>>  wrote:
>> Australia too….
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> From: NANOG  On Behalf Of Oliver O'Boyle
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 1:08 PM
>> To: marshall.euba...@gmail.com
>> Cc: North American Network Operators' Group 
>> Subject: Re: Youtube Outage
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Same in Montreal.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 9:52 PM Marshall Eubanks 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Reports (and humor) are flooding twitter.
>> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 9:44 PM Ross Tajvar  wrote:
>> >
>> > You beat my email by seconds. Yes, it is widespread.
>> >
>> > On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 9:39 PM, Kenneth McRae via NANOG  
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Is this widespread?
>> >
>> >
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> :o@>
>> 
>>  

Re: It's been 20 years today (Oct 16, UTC). Hard to believe.

[bzs]

What it's trying to say is that you have control over your own code
but not others', in general.

So make your own code (etc) robust and forgiving since you can't edit
others' code to conform to your own understanding of what they should
be sending you.

I suppose that pre-dates github but nonetheless much of the code which
generates bits flung at you is proprietary and otherwise out of your
control but what you can control is your code's reaction to it.

And of course the bits you generate which should try to make
conservative assumptions about what they might accept and interpret as
you expect.

For example just because they sent you a seemingly malformed HTTP
request, and given that 4xx is for error codes, doesn't mean you
should return "420 You must be high!" and expect to be understood.

-- 
-Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die| b...@theworld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD   | 800-THE-WRLD
The World: Since 1989  | A Public Information Utility | *oo*

RE: Youtube Outage

[Delacruz, Anthony B]

Well at least the BGP looks good this time and it's not being sent to Pakistan.

-Original Message-
From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Kenneth McRae via 
NANOG
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 8:40 PM
To: NANOG
Subject: Youtube Outage

Is this widespread?
This communication is the property of CenturyLink and may contain confidential 
or privileged information. Unauthorized use of this communication is strictly 
prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in 
error, please immediately notify the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all 
copies of the communication and any attachments.

Re: Youtube Outage

[Ross Tajvar]

I think it's clear they're having problems worldwide - could we maybe
refrain from the "me too"s unless someone has insight on what the problem
is?

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 10:21 PM Jason Kuehl  wrote:

> Nothing on the homepage but search is working. (boston)
>
> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 10:17 PM Charles Mills  wrote:
>
>> The reports I've seen showing it as a worldwide outage.
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 10:14 PM Nathan Brookfield <
>> nathan.brookfi...@simtronic.com.au> wrote:
>>
>>> Australia too….
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* NANOG  *On Behalf Of *Oliver O'Boyle
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 17, 2018 1:08 PM
>>> *To:* marshall.euba...@gmail.com
>>> *Cc:* North American Network Operators' Group 
>>> *Subject:* Re: Youtube Outage
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Same in Montreal.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 9:52 PM Marshall Eubanks <
>>> marshall.euba...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Reports (and humor) are flooding twitter.
>>> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 9:44 PM Ross Tajvar  wrote:
>>> >
>>> > You beat my email by seconds. Yes, it is widespread.
>>> >
>>> > On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 9:39 PM, Kenneth McRae via NANOG <
>>> nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Is this widespread?
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> :o@>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
> --
> Sincerely,
>
> Jason W Kuehl
> Cell 920-419-8983
> jason.w.ku...@gmail.com
>

RE: Youtube Outage

[Aaron Gould]

Oh yeah, hitting me hard in South Central Texas... no youtube videos at all for 
my customers.

-Aaron

 

 

From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Ross Tajvar
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 8:43 PM
To: Kenneth McRae
Cc: NANOG
Subject: Re: Youtube Outage

 

You beat my email by seconds. Yes, it is widespread.

 

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 9:39 PM, Kenneth McRae via NANOG  
wrote:

Is this widespread?

 

Re: Youtube Outage

[Jason Kuehl]

Nothing on the homepage but search is working. (boston)

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 10:17 PM Charles Mills  wrote:

> The reports I've seen showing it as a worldwide outage.
>
> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 10:14 PM Nathan Brookfield <
> nathan.brookfi...@simtronic.com.au> wrote:
>
>> Australia too….
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* NANOG  *On Behalf Of *Oliver O'Boyle
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 17, 2018 1:08 PM
>> *To:* marshall.euba...@gmail.com
>> *Cc:* North American Network Operators' Group 
>> *Subject:* Re: Youtube Outage
>>
>>
>>
>> Same in Montreal.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 9:52 PM Marshall Eubanks <
>> marshall.euba...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Reports (and humor) are flooding twitter.
>> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 9:44 PM Ross Tajvar  wrote:
>> >
>> > You beat my email by seconds. Yes, it is widespread.
>> >
>> > On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 9:39 PM, Kenneth McRae via NANOG <
>> nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Is this widespread?
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> :o@>
>>
>>
>>
>

-- 
Sincerely,

Jason W Kuehl
Cell 920-419-8983
jason.w.ku...@gmail.com

Re: Youtube Outage

[Charles Mills]

The reports I've seen showing it as a worldwide outage.

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 10:14 PM Nathan Brookfield <
nathan.brookfi...@simtronic.com.au> wrote:

> Australia too….
>
>
>
> *From:* NANOG  *On Behalf Of *Oliver O'Boyle
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 17, 2018 1:08 PM
> *To:* marshall.euba...@gmail.com
> *Cc:* North American Network Operators' Group 
> *Subject:* Re: Youtube Outage
>
>
>
> Same in Montreal.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 9:52 PM Marshall Eubanks <
> marshall.euba...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Reports (and humor) are flooding twitter.
> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 9:44 PM Ross Tajvar  wrote:
> >
> > You beat my email by seconds. Yes, it is widespread.
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 9:39 PM, Kenneth McRae via NANOG <
> nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Is this widespread?
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> :o@>
>
>
>

RE: Youtube Outage

[Nathan Brookfield]

Australia too….

From: NANOG  On Behalf Of Oliver O'Boyle
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 1:08 PM
To: marshall.euba...@gmail.com
Cc: North American Network Operators' Group 
Subject: Re: Youtube Outage

Same in Montreal.

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 9:52 PM Marshall Eubanks 
mailto:marshall.euba...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Reports (and humor) are flooding twitter.
On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 9:44 PM Ross Tajvar 
mailto:r...@tajvar.io>> wrote:
>
> You beat my email by seconds. Yes, it is widespread.
>
> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 9:39 PM, Kenneth McRae via NANOG 
> mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> wrote:
>>
>> Is this widespread?
>
>


--
:o@>

Re: Youtube Outage

[Oliver O'Boyle]

Same in Montreal.

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 9:52 PM Marshall Eubanks 
wrote:

> Reports (and humor) are flooding twitter.
> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 9:44 PM Ross Tajvar  wrote:
> >
> > You beat my email by seconds. Yes, it is widespread.
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 9:39 PM, Kenneth McRae via NANOG <
> nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Is this widespread?
> >
> >
>


-- 
:o@>

Re: Youtube Outage

[Marshall Eubanks]

Reports (and humor) are flooding twitter.
On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 9:44 PM Ross Tajvar  wrote:
>
> You beat my email by seconds. Yes, it is widespread.
>
> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 9:39 PM, Kenneth McRae via NANOG  
> wrote:
>>
>> Is this widespread?
>
>

Re: Youtube Outage

[Bryce Wilson]

Same issue for me in Vancouver. My direct peering in Germany has the same issue.

Thanks ~ Bryce Wilson, AS202313

> On Oct 16, 2018, at 6:42 PM, Ross Tajvar  wrote:
> 
> You beat my email by seconds. Yes, it is widespread.
> 
>> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 9:39 PM, Kenneth McRae via NANOG  
>> wrote:
>> Is this widespread?
> 

Re: Youtube Outage

[Michael Crapse]

Tmobile, and syringa no youtube

On Tue, 16 Oct 2018 at 19:42, Kenneth McRae via NANOG 
wrote:

> Is this widespread?
>

Re: Youtube Outage

[Ross Tajvar]

You beat my email by seconds. Yes, it is widespread.

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 9:39 PM, Kenneth McRae via NANOG 
wrote:

> Is this widespread?
>

Youtube Outage

[Kenneth McRae via NANOG]

Is this widespread?


signature.asc
Description: Message signed with OpenPGP

Re: Whats going on at Cogent

[Michael Crapse]

Or he's saying that cogent has the biggest network of compromised users.
Usually ipv4 only eyeball networks tend to have the most bots on net.


On Tue, 16 Oct 2018 at 19:22, Niels Bakker  wrote:

> * aar...@gvtc.com (Aaron1) [Wed 17 Oct 2018, 00:17 CEST]:
> >However Cogent seems to be the dirtiest in regards to DDOS...
> >however Telia might be catching up... in times past when I receive
> >volumetric DDOS, Cogent typically ranks with the highest on my
> >providers ... AT and spectrum seem to be a bit cleaner
>
> So you're saying, Cogent and Telia have the best backbones and
> interconnects and thus deliver the most of your traffic to you,
> even at times of peak utilization?
>
>
> -- Niels.
>

Re: Whats going on at Cogent

[Niels Bakker]

* aar...@gvtc.com (Aaron1) [Wed 17 Oct 2018, 00:17 CEST]:

However Cogent seems to be the dirtiest in regards to DDOS...
however Telia might be catching up... in times past when I receive 
volumetric DDOS, Cogent typically ranks with the highest on my 
providers ... AT and spectrum seem to be a bit cleaner


So you're saying, Cogent and Telia have the best backbones and 
interconnects and thus deliver the most of your traffic to you, 
even at times of peak utilization?



-- Niels.

Re: It's been 20 years today (Oct 16, UTC). Hard to believe.

[Fred Baker]

On Oct 16, 2018, at 4:57 PM, Wayne Bouchard  wrote:
> Well, simply put, the idea is that you should be able to compensate
> for a certain amount of deviation from accepted usage as long as its
> still within what the protocol allows (or can be read to allow) but
> that you yourself should act with a fairly strict interpretation. In
> others, don't be the one *causing* the problems...

Indeed. To give a TCP example, the opening exchange is theoretically SYN, SYN 
ACK, ACK. A common case is that it is SYN, SYN ACK, data, either because the 
ACK got lost, or because someone cut a corner. The issue is to note that the 
SYN might have been duplicated in flight, and the receiver might therefore have 
the appearance of two sessions. Which one? The ACK (or data segment) - any 
segment within the sessions - clarifies that. So, if there is a minor protocol 
violation but the intent it clear, follow the intent.

The alternative version of the Robustness Principle: "S**t happens; deal with 
it."

Says someone who has implemented such things...

Victorious warriors win first and then go to war,
Defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win.
 Sun Tzu



signature.asc
Description: Message signed with OpenPGP

Re: Whats going on at Cogent

[Ben Cannon]

But their support daily. They blamed the DC, our suite, the MMR, all in that 
order. Don’t let them, it was Mia-parched at their core router...

-Ben

> On Oct 16, 2018, at 4:51 PM, Matt Perkins  wrote:
> 
> Oh that's disturbing . We just signed up a few months ago for a circuit at an 
> MMR and are still waiting for delivery.
> 
> Matt.
> 
> 
>> On 17/10/18 10:23 am, Ben Cannon wrote:
>> Oh how funny I’m working on a billing issue with them for a circuit they 
>> turned up but didn’t connect to the MMR for 2 months...
>> 
>> 
>> -Ben
>> 
>>> On Oct 16, 2018, at 3:20 PM, Matt Erculiani  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Speaking of Cogent service (and I know you guys are watching), I'd love
>>> to get someone's help off-list turning up a p2p that has been moved to
>>> billing despite being told loud and clear it doesn't work. I
>>> half-expected it to not work when I found out there was a type 2
>>> provider involved, but I definitely did not expect to be billed for
>>> it...
>>> 
>>> -Matt
 On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 12:09 PM Mike Hammett  wrote:
 
 Agreed. A couple IXes, Cogent, HE, and a couple others. Add more IXes and 
 others as needed. Eyeballs should be fine with the above.
 
 
 
 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com
 
 Midwest-IX
 http://www.midwest-ix.com
 
 
 From: "Daniel Corbe" 
 To: "DaKnOb" 
 Cc: "NANOG" 
 Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 10:44:10 AM
 Subject: Re: Whats going on at Cogent
 
 at 11:34 AM, DaKnOb  wrote:
 
> I guess people really don’t like Cogent judging by the fact that one
> unrelated email caused all this to happen again.. :-)
 Cogent have more pain points on average but they’re still the best option
 for getting to other Cogent customers.  It’s not really hard to design
 around their shortcomings.   I’d rather have 30 small links and be
 well-connected than two large ones and be SOL because someone refuses to
 peer.
 
 I can’t speak to their MPLS service, because cogent’s the last company I’d
 ever trust with my backbone.
 
 
 
 
> 
> -- 
> /* Matt Perkins
>Direct 1300 137 379Spectrum Networks Ptd. Ltd.
>Office 1300 133 299m...@spectrum.com.au
>   Level 6, 350 George Street Sydney 2000
>Spectrum Networks is a member of the Communications Alliance & TIO
> */
> 

Re: It's been 20 years today (Oct 16, UTC). Hard to believe.

[Wayne Bouchard]

Well, simply put, the idea is that you should be able to compensate
for a certain amount of deviation from accepted usage as long as its
still within what the protocol allows (or can be read to allow) but
that you yourself should act with a fairly strict interpretation. In
others, don't be the one *causing* the problems...

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 11:10:31AM -0700, Brian Kantor wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 02:01:48PM -0400, Daniel Corbe wrote:
> > The one thing I remember about Postel, other than the fact that he had his  
> > fingers in a lot of DNS pies, is be liberal about what you accept, be  
> > conservative about what you send.  It???s a notion that creates undo burden 
> >  
> > on the implementor, because it places the expectation on the that you need  
> > to account for every conceivable ambiguous corner case and that???s not  
> > always the best approach when implementing a standard; and it mostly arises 
> >  
> > from the lack of adherence to the second part of that statement.
> 
> I think that his aphorism is simply a recognition that NO standard
> can cover all cases that might arise when dealing with complex
> matters, no matter how much thought went into it.  People are
> fallible, and the standards they write are inevitably flawed in
> some way, so a realistic implementor has to allow some slack or be
> continually engaged in finger-pointing when something doesn't work.
>   - Brian

---
Wayne Bouchard
w...@typo.org
Network Dude
http://www.typo.org/~web/

Re: Whats going on at Cogent

[Matt Perkins]

Oh that's disturbing . We just signed up a few months ago for a circuit 
at an MMR and are still waiting for delivery.


Matt.


On 17/10/18 10:23 am, Ben Cannon wrote:

Oh how funny I’m working on a billing issue with them for a circuit they turned 
up but didn’t connect to the MMR for 2 months...


-Ben


On Oct 16, 2018, at 3:20 PM, Matt Erculiani  wrote:

Speaking of Cogent service (and I know you guys are watching), I'd love
to get someone's help off-list turning up a p2p that has been moved to
billing despite being told loud and clear it doesn't work. I
half-expected it to not work when I found out there was a type 2
provider involved, but I definitely did not expect to be billed for
it...

-Matt

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 12:09 PM Mike Hammett  wrote:

Agreed. A couple IXes, Cogent, HE, and a couple others. Add more IXes and 
others as needed. Eyeballs should be fine with the above.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

Midwest-IX
http://www.midwest-ix.com


From: "Daniel Corbe" 
To: "DaKnOb" 
Cc: "NANOG" 
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 10:44:10 AM
Subject: Re: Whats going on at Cogent

at 11:34 AM, DaKnOb  wrote:


I guess people really don’t like Cogent judging by the fact that one
unrelated email caused all this to happen again.. :-)

Cogent have more pain points on average but they’re still the best option
for getting to other Cogent customers.  It’s not really hard to design
around their shortcomings.   I’d rather have 30 small links and be
well-connected than two large ones and be SOL because someone refuses to
peer.

I can’t speak to their MPLS service, because cogent’s the last company I’d
ever trust with my backbone.






--
/* Matt Perkins
Direct 1300 137 379Spectrum Networks Ptd. Ltd.
Office 1300 133 299m...@spectrum.com.au
   Level 6, 350 George Street Sydney 2000
Spectrum Networks is a member of the Communications Alliance & TIO
*/

Re: Whats going on at Cogent

[Ben Cannon]

Oh how funny I’m working on a billing issue with them for a circuit they turned 
up but didn’t connect to the MMR for 2 months...


-Ben

> On Oct 16, 2018, at 3:20 PM, Matt Erculiani  wrote:
> 
> Speaking of Cogent service (and I know you guys are watching), I'd love
> to get someone's help off-list turning up a p2p that has been moved to
> billing despite being told loud and clear it doesn't work. I
> half-expected it to not work when I found out there was a type 2
> provider involved, but I definitely did not expect to be billed for
> it...
> 
> -Matt
>> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 12:09 PM Mike Hammett  wrote:
>> 
>> Agreed. A couple IXes, Cogent, HE, and a couple others. Add more IXes and 
>> others as needed. Eyeballs should be fine with the above.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> http://www.ics-il.com
>> 
>> Midwest-IX
>> http://www.midwest-ix.com
>> 
>> 
>> From: "Daniel Corbe" 
>> To: "DaKnOb" 
>> Cc: "NANOG" 
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 10:44:10 AM
>> Subject: Re: Whats going on at Cogent
>> 
>> at 11:34 AM, DaKnOb  wrote:
>> 
>>> I guess people really don’t like Cogent judging by the fact that one
>>> unrelated email caused all this to happen again.. :-)
>> 
>> Cogent have more pain points on average but they’re still the best option
>> for getting to other Cogent customers.  It’s not really hard to design
>> around their shortcomings.   I’d rather have 30 small links and be
>> well-connected than two large ones and be SOL because someone refuses to
>> peer.
>> 
>> I can’t speak to their MPLS service, because cogent’s the last company I’d
>> ever trust with my backbone.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 

Re: NAT on a Trident/Qumran(/or other?) equipped whitebox?

[Paul Zugnoni]

The problem asking whether this can be done "at line rate" in a specific
switch platform ignores these critical measurements:
- what's the packet rate expected for the nat flows?
- will the control plane add a forwarding plane rule for every new session?
if so, how quickly can that rule be pushed to the ASIC? how many per second
can be done? I think you'll quickly find that new session rate will be a
more limiting factor to the thruput than the bandwidth of the involved
ports. An architecture to support that would be far more expensive. Maybe
this was the case on the platforms Joel noted, and I believe modern
"hardware based" firewall like higher end SRX and some Fortinet.
- If not with the architecture above, then every packet needs to be punted
to the CPU. What's the bw between ASIC and CPU? Consider the CPU is doing
the decision making based on flows; the control plane usually has only 1G
to the ASIC, sometimes and probably increasingly common is 10G.

For these reasons I doubt the 7150s in the original email can dynamically
NAT at line rate

PZ

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 9:25 AM joel jaeggli  wrote:

> On 10/16/18 08:55, Brandon Martin wrote:
> > On 10/16/18 10:05 AM, James Bensley wrote:
> >> NAT/PAT is an N:1 swapping (map) though so a state/translation table
> >> is required to correctly "swap" back the return traffic. MPLS for
> >> example is 1:1 mapping/action. NAT/PAT state tables tend to fill
> >> quickly so to aid with this we also have timers to time out the
> >> translations and free up space in the translation table, and also
> >> track e.g. TCP RST or TCP FIN to remove entries from the table, so
> >> it's not "just swapping".
> >
> > I do wonder, though, if these popular switching ASICs are flexible
> > enough in terms of their header matching and manipulation capabilities
> > to handle packet mangling and forwarding in hardware for a given NAT
> > state entry while punting anything that requires a state change to a CPU
> > for inspection and state update.
> >
> > You'd need a somewhat more powerful CPU than your typical L3 switch
> > might have, but it seems like you'd still be able to offload the vast
> > majority of the actual packet processing to hardware.
>
> This is a flow cached router fundamentally. They exist. In that design
> you burn your fib on flow entries rather than on nexthop routes. They
> tend to explode at forwarding rates far lower than a typical ethernet
> switch when their ability to accumulate new state is exercised.
> riverstone RS circa 1999-2004 and various cisco products (sup 1a cat6k?)
> did follow that model.
>
> > State table size (on a typical "switching" ASIC) might be an issue
> > before you could actually fill up a 10Gbps+ link with typical SP
> > multi-user traffic flows, I guess, and given that a moderate-spec PC can
> > keep up with 10Gbps without much issue these days, maybe it's a
> > non-starter.
>
>
>

Re: Whats going on at Cogent

[Matt Erculiani]

Speaking of Cogent service (and I know you guys are watching), I'd love
to get someone's help off-list turning up a p2p that has been moved to
billing despite being told loud and clear it doesn't work. I
half-expected it to not work when I found out there was a type 2
provider involved, but I definitely did not expect to be billed for
it...

-Matt
On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 12:09 PM Mike Hammett  wrote:
>
> Agreed. A couple IXes, Cogent, HE, and a couple others. Add more IXes and 
> others as needed. Eyeballs should be fine with the above.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
> Midwest-IX
> http://www.midwest-ix.com
>
> 
> From: "Daniel Corbe" 
> To: "DaKnOb" 
> Cc: "NANOG" 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 10:44:10 AM
> Subject: Re: Whats going on at Cogent
>
> at 11:34 AM, DaKnOb  wrote:
>
> > I guess people really don’t like Cogent judging by the fact that one
> > unrelated email caused all this to happen again.. :-)
>
> Cogent have more pain points on average but they’re still the best option
> for getting to other Cogent customers.  It’s not really hard to design
> around their shortcomings.   I’d rather have 30 small links and be
> well-connected than two large ones and be SOL because someone refuses to
> peer.
>
> I can’t speak to their MPLS service, because cogent’s the last company I’d
> ever trust with my backbone.
>
>
>
>

Re: Whats going on at Cogent

[Aaron1]

As an eyeball network operator, Cogent has served me well for several years, I 
can say that they are probably the easiest and most relaxed and most accessible 
to work with from my experience compared to my other providers, I’m comparing 
to 3 other well-known providers

It seems like when I call Cogent the person that answers the phone is the 
person that solves my problem, other providers I have to go through multiple 
layers of people to get to someone who knows how to do what I need them to do

Cogent has typically been the cheapest also

However Cogent seems to be the dirtiest in regards to DDOS...  however Telia 
might be catching up... in times past when I receive volumetric DDOS, Cogent 
typically ranks with the highest on my providers ... AT and spectrum seem to 
be a bit cleaner

I also have the long-standing v6 google issue

So yeah, pros and cons, but that’s true about most things, pros and cons 

Aaron

> On Oct 16, 2018, at 12:08 PM, Mike Hammett  wrote:
> 
> Agreed. A couple IXes, Cogent, HE, and a couple others. Add more IXes and 
> others as needed. Eyeballs should be fine with the above.
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
> 
> Midwest-IX
> http://www.midwest-ix.com
> 
> From: "Daniel Corbe" 
> To: "DaKnOb" 
> Cc: "NANOG" 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 10:44:10 AM
> Subject: Re: Whats going on at Cogent
> 
> at 11:34 AM, DaKnOb  wrote:
> 
> > I guess people really don’t like Cogent judging by the fact that one  
> > unrelated email caused all this to happen again.. :-)
> 
> Cogent have more pain points on average but they’re still the best option  
> for getting to other Cogent customers.  It’s not really hard to design  
> around their shortcomings.   I’d rather have 30 small links and be  
> well-connected than two large ones and be SOL because someone refuses to  
> peer.
> 
> I can’t speak to their MPLS service, because cogent’s the last company I’d  
> ever trust with my backbone.
> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: Hurricane Michael: Communication Service Provider status

[Sean Donelan]

Gosh, I can predict the future (by minutes).  Verizon has issued a 
statement.  It will automatically issue 3 months of mobile service credits 
for each consumer and business line in the affected areas (Bay and Gulf 
counties).


I predict similar statements from the other major carriers shortly :-)



https://www.verizon.com/about/news/statement-issued-ronan-dunne-hurricane-michael-network-recovery
Oct 16, 2018 5:10pm

Statement issued by Ronan Dunne, on Hurricane Michael network recovery

Verizon is 100 percent focused on repairing our network in the Florida 
Panhandle. We are making progress every hour, and we expect that trend to 
continue at a rapid pace. We won’t rest until service is completely 
restored.


Every Verizon customer in Bay and Gulf counties will be automatically 
credited for 3 months of mobile service for each line. This free service 
is for both consumer and business accounts.


We will continue to regularly update our network recovery information at: 
https://www.verizon.com/about/news/hurricane-michael-network-updates/


As our recovery work continues, we have deployed portable cells to support 
the critical effort of first responders and other mission critical 
organizations, including:


Bay County Emergency Operations Center and 911 Center
Bay County Sheriff’s Office
Blakely Emergency Operations Center
City of Parker Police Department
FDOT Chipley Office
FEMA Office
Gulf Coast Regional Medical Center
Gulf County Emergency Operations Center
Lynn Haven Emergency Operations Center
Mexico Beach
Miller County 911
Panama City Police Department
Springfield Police Department
TECO Peoples Gas, Panama City
Tyndall Air Force Base
Washington Emergency Operations Center in Chipley

Re: Hurricane Michael: Communication Service Provider status

[Sean Donelan]

26 fatalities reported so far, 4 hospitals closed.

Telecommunications:

FCC Chairman Pai and Florida Governor Scott issued loud complaints about 
the speed of restoration of cell sites and telecommunications after 
Hurricane Michael.  This seems to be an over-reaction to the lack of 
action after Puerto Rico last year. This issued several demands for 
actions that cellular providers almost always do after major disasters. So 
I expect them to claim victory when the carriers do the standard thing.


1. After disasters cell providers almost always implement "open roaming" 
allowing customers to use any working cell tower, even of different 
carriers.  This was implemented in Puerto Rico for months. If cellular 
carriers in Florida haven't already done this, I expect they will.


2. Waive subscriber bills in the disaster area. Again, due to how open 
roaming works, most carriers will waive bills during the disaster.  Mostly 
because billing doesn't work with open roaming, so make it a public 
relations benefit.


3. Deploy more disaster cell sites (COWs, COLTs, flying cell sites, etc.)


AT put out a happy, happy, joy, joy press release saying "nearly fully 
restored in most affected areas."  AT provide no details what that 
means, what affected areas, or what is not restored yet.


https://about.att.com/pages/hurricane_michael

Verizon put out more details about the impact on their network.

https://www.verizon.com/about/news/hurricane-michael-network-updates

Bay County, Florida still appears the most affected.  Major fiber and 
roadway damage in the county.  Verizon is using flying cell sites in Bay 
County, and deployed several satellite connected COWs/COLTs.


Spectrum Cable (Charter, Time-Warner, etc. merged)

Spectrum has some generic informatino that its service has been 
interrupted by damaged from Hurrican Michael.


https://www.spectrum.net/page/weather-center/

Electric Power:

Braford County: 56% out of service (65,859 customers)
Calhoun County: 98% out of service (6,930 customers)
Gasden County: 68% out of service (14,781 customers)
Gulf County: 88% out of service (9,695 customers)
Jackson County: 83% out of service (21,621 customers)
Liberty County: 69% out of service (2,796 customers)

Re: It's been 20 years today (Oct 16, UTC). Hard to believe.

[Brian Kantor]

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 02:01:48PM -0400, Daniel Corbe wrote:
> The one thing I remember about Postel, other than the fact that he had his  
> fingers in a lot of DNS pies, is be liberal about what you accept, be  
> conservative about what you send.  It’s a notion that creates undo burden  
> on the implementor, because it places the expectation on the that you need  
> to account for every conceivable ambiguous corner case and that’s not  
> always the best approach when implementing a standard; and it mostly arises  
> from the lack of adherence to the second part of that statement.

I think that his aphorism is simply a recognition that NO standard
can cover all cases that might arise when dealing with complex
matters, no matter how much thought went into it.  People are
fallible, and the standards they write are inevitably flawed in
some way, so a realistic implementor has to allow some slack or be
continually engaged in finger-pointing when something doesn't work.
- Brian

Re: It's been 20 years today (Oct 16, UTC). Hard to believe.

[Daniel Corbe]

at 1:11 PM, Scott Weeks  wrote:



Wow, was it a table of folks new to network engineering?
If so, then schooling; if not, then clue bat...  :-)

scott


The one thing I remember about Postel, other than the fact that he had his  
fingers in a lot of DNS pies, is be liberal about what you accept, be  
conservative about what you send.  It’s a notion that creates undo burden  
on the implementor, because it places the expectation on the that you need  
to account for every conceivable ambiguous corner case and that’s not  
always the best approach when implementing a standard; and it mostly arises  
from the lack of adherence to the second part of that statement.

Re: It's been 20 years today (Oct 16, UTC). Hard to believe.

[Scott Weeks]

--- rjo...@centergate.com wrote:
From: Rodney Joffe 

At NANOG two weeks ago, we had an interesting discussion at 
one of the lunch tables. One of the subjects we discussed 
was the original IANA, and RFC Editor, Jon Postel.

Seven of the ten people at the table had never heard of him. 
Maybe these days it no longer matters who he was, and what 
he meant to where we are today.



Wow, was it a table of folks new to network engineering?
If so, then schooling; if not, then clue bat...  :-)

scott

Re: Whats going on at Cogent

[Mike Hammett]

Agreed. A couple IXes, Cogent, HE, and a couple others. Add more IXes and 
others as needed. Eyeballs should be fine with the above. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

Midwest-IX 
http://www.midwest-ix.com 

- Original Message -

From: "Daniel Corbe"  
To: "DaKnOb"  
Cc: "NANOG"  
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 10:44:10 AM 
Subject: Re: Whats going on at Cogent 

at 11:34 AM, DaKnOb  wrote: 

> I guess people really don’t like Cogent judging by the fact that one 
> unrelated email caused all this to happen again.. :-) 

Cogent have more pain points on average but they’re still the best option 
for getting to other Cogent customers. It’s not really hard to design 
around their shortcomings. I’d rather have 30 small links and be 
well-connected than two large ones and be SOL because someone refuses to 
peer. 

I can’t speak to their MPLS service, because cogent’s the last company I’d 
ever trust with my backbone. 

Re: NAT on a Trident/Qumran(/or other?) equipped whitebox?

[joel jaeggli]

On 10/16/18 08:55, Brandon Martin wrote:
> On 10/16/18 10:05 AM, James Bensley wrote:
>> NAT/PAT is an N:1 swapping (map) though so a state/translation table
>> is required to correctly "swap" back the return traffic. MPLS for
>> example is 1:1 mapping/action. NAT/PAT state tables tend to fill
>> quickly so to aid with this we also have timers to time out the
>> translations and free up space in the translation table, and also
>> track e.g. TCP RST or TCP FIN to remove entries from the table, so
>> it's not "just swapping".
> 
> I do wonder, though, if these popular switching ASICs are flexible
> enough in terms of their header matching and manipulation capabilities
> to handle packet mangling and forwarding in hardware for a given NAT
> state entry while punting anything that requires a state change to a CPU
> for inspection and state update.
> 
> You'd need a somewhat more powerful CPU than your typical L3 switch
> might have, but it seems like you'd still be able to offload the vast
> majority of the actual packet processing to hardware.

This is a flow cached router fundamentally. They exist. In that design
you burn your fib on flow entries rather than on nexthop routes. They
tend to explode at forwarding rates far lower than a typical ethernet
switch when their ability to accumulate new state is exercised.
riverstone RS circa 1999-2004 and various cisco products (sup 1a cat6k?)
did follow that model.

> State table size (on a typical "switching" ASIC) might be an issue
> before you could actually fill up a 10Gbps+ link with typical SP
> multi-user traffic flows, I guess, and given that a moderate-spec PC can
> keep up with 10Gbps without much issue these days, maybe it's a
> non-starter.




signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: NAT on a Trident/Qumran(/or other?) equipped whitebox?

[Brandon Martin]

On 10/16/18 10:05 AM, James Bensley wrote:

NAT/PAT is an N:1 swapping (map) though so a state/translation table
is required to correctly "swap" back the return traffic. MPLS for
example is 1:1 mapping/action. NAT/PAT state tables tend to fill
quickly so to aid with this we also have timers to time out the
translations and free up space in the translation table, and also
track e.g. TCP RST or TCP FIN to remove entries from the table, so
it's not "just swapping".


I do wonder, though, if these popular switching ASICs are flexible 
enough in terms of their header matching and manipulation capabilities 
to handle packet mangling and forwarding in hardware for a given NAT 
state entry while punting anything that requires a state change to a CPU 
for inspection and state update.


You'd need a somewhat more powerful CPU than your typical L3 switch 
might have, but it seems like you'd still be able to offload the vast 
majority of the actual packet processing to hardware.


State table size (on a typical "switching" ASIC) might be an issue 
before you could actually fill up a 10Gbps+ link with typical SP 
multi-user traffic flows, I guess, and given that a moderate-spec PC can 
keep up with 10Gbps without much issue these days, maybe it's a non-starter.

--
Brandon Martin

Re: Whats going on at Cogent

[Daniel Corbe]

at 11:34 AM, DaKnOb  wrote:

I guess people really don’t like Cogent judging by the fact that one  
unrelated email caused all this to happen again.. :-)


Cogent have more pain points on average but they’re still the best option  
for getting to other Cogent customers.  It’s not really hard to design  
around their shortcomings.   I’d rather have 30 small links and be  
well-connected than two large ones and be SOL because someone refuses to  
peer.


I can’t speak to their MPLS service, because cogent’s the last company I’d  
ever trust with my backbone.

Re: Whats going on at Cogent

[DaKnOb]

That’s also true.. If you have a 10G connection between two DCs, and they can’t 
hash the traffic, you can only use 1/4th or 1/5th of the connection. Basically 
it is 10G but only 2G per flow. If you get transit at both places and then use 
a tunnel, which is a different service and may not satisfy all requirements, 
then you can use the full 10G, even with one flow. Otherwise you need to split 
it into 5 or more flows. 

I guess people really don’t like Cogent judging by the fact that one unrelated 
email caused all this to happen again.. :-)

> On 16 Oct 2018, at 18:01, David Hubbard  wrote:
> 
> Yeah google is the issue for us.  We provide web services and a LOT of our 
> customers have software that is making calls of various types to Google 
> services, or even just email delivery to Google hosted email; if all but a 
> Cogent transit link to a given data center were down, all of those customers’ 
> sites would begin failing at some level because the servers generally try v6 
> if the application level wasn’t explicit.  Cogent doesn’t seem to care since 
> their CEO is in some pissing match with Google.  They must be deriving enough 
> revenue from last mile v4-only turn ups that they don’t really care about 
> dual stack customers.
>  
> That being said, can’t say I’ve been impressed with their MPLS / metroE 
> offerings either.  When doing the pricing/sizing routine on a project, I 
> learned that they have an internal concept of src-dst flows on those types of 
> circuits, and if they can’t see your labels, or otherwise hash the traffic, 
> or it all truly is point to point, you may not get the full bandwidth, or may 
> need to buy a capacity larger than what the flow will be.
>  
> From: NANOG  on behalf of DaKnOb 
> 
> Date: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 at 10:06 AM
> To: Dovid Bender 
> Cc: NANOG 
> Subject: Re: Whats going on at Cogent
>  
> When I call and mention it I’m told that it’s HE’s fault (despite the lovely 
> cake), but when I also bring Google, then they tell me to get a different 
> provider just for this traffic, or meet them at an IX and send my traffic 
> from there.
>  
> About the staff rotation I’ve seen it too, and I’ve also seen an increase in 
> salespeople calling, for example when an AS is registered etc. in addition to 
> the normal calls..
> 
> On 16 Oct 2018, at 16:54, Dovid Bender  wrote:
> 
> They call me every few months. the last time they emailed me I said I wasn't 
> interested because of the HE issue. I have yet to get another email...
>  
>  
> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 9:29 AM, Ca By  wrote:
>  
>  
> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 5:16 AM David Hubbard  
> wrote:
> Have had the same sales rep for several years now; unfortunately he has no 
> ability to fix their IPv6 peering issue so we’re slowly removing circuits, 
> but otherwise for a handful of 10gig DIA circuits it’s been stable.
>  
>  
> Yep, this.  Whenever Cogent calls, this is what i tell them. Black-holing HE 
> and Google ipv6 traffic, which is what they do if i use a default route from 
> them, is dead on arrival.  Shows they make bad decisions and dont put the 
> customer first, or even create such an illusion. 
>  
>  
> From: NANOG  on behalf of Ryan Gelobter 
> 
> Date: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 at 6:04 AM
> To: NANOG 
> Subject: Whats going on at Cogent
>  
> Anyone else seen terrible support and high turnover of sales/account people 
> at Cogent the last few months? Is there something going on over there 
> internally? I'm sure some people will say Cogent has always been crap but in 
> the past their account reps and support were pretty good. It seems to have 
> gone downhill the last 12 months really bad.
>  
> Regards,
> Ryan
>  

Re: Whats going on at Cogent

[David Hubbard]

Yeah google is the issue for us.  We provide web services and a LOT of our 
customers have software that is making calls of various types to Google 
services, or even just email delivery to Google hosted email; if all but a 
Cogent transit link to a given data center were down, all of those customers’ 
sites would begin failing at some level because the servers generally try v6 if 
the application level wasn’t explicit.  Cogent doesn’t seem to care since their 
CEO is in some pissing match with Google.  They must be deriving enough revenue 
from last mile v4-only turn ups that they don’t really care about dual stack 
customers.

That being said, can’t say I’ve been impressed with their MPLS / metroE 
offerings either.  When doing the pricing/sizing routine on a project, I 
learned that they have an internal concept of src-dst flows on those types of 
circuits, and if they can’t see your labels, or otherwise hash the traffic, or 
it all truly is point to point, you may not get the full bandwidth, or may need 
to buy a capacity larger than what the flow will be.

From: NANOG  on behalf of DaKnOb 
Date: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 at 10:06 AM
To: Dovid Bender 
Cc: NANOG 
Subject: Re: Whats going on at Cogent

When I call and mention it I’m told that it’s HE’s fault (despite the lovely 
cake), but when I also bring Google, then they tell me to get a different 
provider just for this traffic, or meet them at an IX and send my traffic from 
there.

About the staff rotation I’ve seen it too, and I’ve also seen an increase in 
salespeople calling, for example when an AS is registered etc. in addition to 
the normal calls..

On 16 Oct 2018, at 16:54, Dovid Bender 
mailto:do...@telecurve.com>> wrote:
They call me every few months. the last time they emailed me I said I wasn't 
interested because of the HE issue. I have yet to get another email...


On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 9:29 AM, Ca By 
mailto:cb.li...@gmail.com>> wrote:


On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 5:16 AM David Hubbard 
mailto:dhubb...@dino.hostasaurus.com>> wrote:
Have had the same sales rep for several years now; unfortunately he has no 
ability to fix their IPv6 peering issue so we’re slowly removing circuits, but 
otherwise for a handful of 10gig DIA circuits it’s been stable.


Yep, this.  Whenever Cogent calls, this is what i tell them. Black-holing HE 
and Google ipv6 traffic, which is what they do if i use a default route from 
them, is dead on arrival.  Shows they make bad decisions and dont put the 
customer first, or even create such an illusion.


From: NANOG mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org>> on behalf 
of Ryan Gelobter mailto:rya...@atwgpc.net>>
Date: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 at 6:04 AM
To: NANOG mailto:nanog@nanog.org>>
Subject: Whats going on at Cogent

Anyone else seen terrible support and high turnover of sales/account people at 
Cogent the last few months? Is there something going on over there internally? 
I'm sure some people will say Cogent has always been crap but in the past their 
account reps and support were pretty good. It seems to have gone downhill the 
last 12 months really bad.

Regards,
Ryan

Re: Whats going on at Cogent

[Jared Mauch]

> On Oct 16, 2018, at 10:20 AM, Walt  wrote:
> 
> HE is happy to peer with Cogent and would love to solve this issue.
> 
> Thanks
> 

As someone who really depends upon full internet access I can’t purchase from 
either supplier due to this.  This mirrors what Ca By said, need a place where 
there’s full reachability.  

I would factor that into your purchases/network design. 

You can design around this, but it also may be too much effort.

- Jared

Re: Whats going on at Cogent

[Josh Luthman]

I'm in the process of turning up a Cogent circuit in Cologix (Columbus) and
hope to be finished in the next week or so.  So far my experience has been
great.

The only thing I didn't like was the monthly sales call asking me to sign
the contract, reminding me they are available.


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 10:20 AM, Walt  wrote:

> HE is happy to peer with Cogent and would love to solve this issue.
>
> Thanks
>
> Walt
>
> From: NANOG  on behalf of DaKnOb <
> daknob@gmail.com>
> Date: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 at 7:04 AM
> To: Dovid Bender 
> Cc: NANOG 
> Subject: Re: Whats going on at Cogent
>
> When I call and mention it I’m told that it’s HE’s fault (despite the
> lovely cake), but when I also bring Google, then they tell me to get a
> different provider just for this traffic, or meet them at an IX and send my
> traffic from there.
>
> About the staff rotation I’ve seen it too, and I’ve also seen an increase
> in salespeople calling, for example when an AS is registered etc. in
> addition to the normal calls..
>
> On 16 Oct 2018, at 16:54, Dovid Bender  wrote:
>
> They call me every few months. the last time they emailed me I said I
> wasn't interested because of the HE issue. I have yet to get another
> email...
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 9:29 AM, Ca By  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 5:16 AM David Hubbard <
>> dhubb...@dino.hostasaurus.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Have had the same sales rep for several years now; unfortunately he has
>>> no ability to fix their IPv6 peering issue so we’re slowly removing
>>> circuits, but otherwise for a handful of 10gig DIA circuits it’s been
>>> stable.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Yep, this.  Whenever Cogent calls, this is what i tell them. Black-holing
>> HE and Google ipv6 traffic, which is what they do if i use a default route
>> from them, is dead on arrival.  Shows they make bad decisions and dont put
>> the customer first, or even create such an illusion.
>>
>>
>> *From: *NANOG  on behalf of Ryan Gelobter <
>>> rya...@atwgpc.net>
>>> *Date: *Tuesday, October 16, 2018 at 6:04 AM
>>> *To: *NANOG 
>>> *Subject: *Whats going on at Cogent
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Anyone else seen terrible support and high turnover of sales/account
>>> people at Cogent the last few months? Is there something going on over
>>> there internally? I'm sure some people will say Cogent has always been crap
>>> but in the past their account reps and support were pretty good. It seems
>>> to have gone downhill the last 12 months really bad.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Ryan
>>>
>>
>

Re: Whats going on at Cogent

[Walt]

HE is happy to peer with Cogent and would love to solve this issue.

Thanks

Walt

From: NANOG mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org>> on behalf 
of DaKnOb mailto:daknob@gmail.com>>
Date: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 at 7:04 AM
To: Dovid Bender mailto:do...@telecurve.com>>
Cc: NANOG mailto:nanog@nanog.org>>
Subject: Re: Whats going on at Cogent

When I call and mention it I’m told that it’s HE’s fault (despite the lovely 
cake), but when I also bring Google, then they tell me to get a different 
provider just for this traffic, or meet them at an IX and send my traffic from 
there.

About the staff rotation I’ve seen it too, and I’ve also seen an increase in 
salespeople calling, for example when an AS is registered etc. in addition to 
the normal calls..

On 16 Oct 2018, at 16:54, Dovid Bender 
mailto:do...@telecurve.com>> wrote:

They call me every few months. the last time they emailed me I said I wasn't 
interested because of the HE issue. I have yet to get another email...


On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 9:29 AM, Ca By 
mailto:cb.li...@gmail.com>> wrote:


On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 5:16 AM David Hubbard 
mailto:dhubb...@dino.hostasaurus.com>> wrote:
Have had the same sales rep for several years now; unfortunately he has no 
ability to fix their IPv6 peering issue so we’re slowly removing circuits, but 
otherwise for a handful of 10gig DIA circuits it’s been stable.


Yep, this.  Whenever Cogent calls, this is what i tell them. Black-holing HE 
and Google ipv6 traffic, which is what they do if i use a default route from 
them, is dead on arrival.  Shows they make bad decisions and dont put the 
customer first, or even create such an illusion.


From: NANOG mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org>> on behalf 
of Ryan Gelobter mailto:rya...@atwgpc.net>>
Date: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 at 6:04 AM
To: NANOG mailto:nanog@nanog.org>>
Subject: Whats going on at Cogent

Anyone else seen terrible support and high turnover of sales/account people at 
Cogent the last few months? Is there something going on over there internally? 
I'm sure some people will say Cogent has always been crap but in the past their 
account reps and support were pretty good. It seems to have gone downhill the 
last 12 months really bad.

Regards,
Ryan

Re: Whats going on at Cogent

[Dovid Bender]

We have been very happy with HE. It was a no brainer over cogent. They are
smaller (so are we). When there are issues they are real fast to fix them,
you also get the personal touch which you don't get with others.


On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 10:10 AM, Eric Dugas 
wrote:

> I don't really get the Cogent/Google peering issues. I've been hearing
> this for years... How about fixing it already? Telling customer to get
> other transit providers to get to a given network is really bad.
>
> On a side note, HE is still HE but they're trying really hard to be a good
> netcitizen. They've finally pushed filtering for peers:
> http://routing.he.net. I wouldn't get transit from them, but in some
> markets, they're the only affordable IP transit providers.
>
> On Oct 16 2018, at 10:04 am, DaKnOb  wrote:
>
>
>
> When I call and mention it I’m told that it’s HE’s fault (despite the
> lovely cake), but when I also bring Google, then they tell me to get a
> different provider just for this traffic, or meet them at an IX and send my
> traffic from there.
>
> About the staff rotation I’ve seen it too, and I’ve also seen an increase
> in salespeople calling, for example when an AS is registered etc. in
> addition to the normal calls..
>
> On 16 Oct 2018, at 16:54, Dovid Bender  wrote:
>
> They call me every few months. the last time they emailed me I said I
> wasn't interested because of the HE issue. I have yet to get another
> email...
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 9:29 AM, Ca By  wrote:
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 5:16 AM David Hubbard <
> dhubb...@dino.hostasaurus.com> wrote:
>
> Have had the same sales rep for several years now; unfortunately he has no
> ability to fix their IPv6 peering issue so we’re slowly removing circuits,
> but otherwise for a handful of 10gig DIA circuits it’s been stable.
>
>
>
>
> Yep, this.  Whenever Cogent calls, this is what i tell them. Black-holing
> HE and Google ipv6 traffic, which is what they do if i use a default route
> from them, is dead on arrival.  Shows they make bad decisions and dont put
> the customer first, or even create such an illusion.
>
>
>
>
> *From: *NANOG  on behalf of Ryan Gelobter <
> rya...@atwgpc.net>
> *Date: *Tuesday, October 16, 2018 at 6:04 AM
> *To: *NANOG 
> *Subject: *Whats going on at Cogent
>
> Anyone else seen terrible support and high turnover of sales/account
> people at Cogent the last few months? Is there something going on over
> there internally? I'm sure some people will say Cogent has always been crap
> but in the past their account reps and support were pretty good. It seems
> to have gone downhill the last 12 months really bad.
>
> Regards,
> Ryan
>
>

Re: Whats going on at Cogent

[Eric Dugas]

I don't really get the Cogent/Google peering issues. I've been hearing this for 
years... How about fixing it already? Telling customer to get other transit 
providers to get to a given network is really bad.

On a side note, HE is still HE but they're trying really hard to be a good 
netcitizen. They've finally pushed filtering for peers: http://routing.he.net. 
I wouldn't get transit from them, but in some markets, they're the only 
affordable IP transit providers.
On Oct 16 2018, at 10:04 am, DaKnOb  wrote:
>
>
> When I call and mention it I’m told that it’s HE’s fault (despite the lovely 
> cake), but when I also bring Google, then they tell me to get a different 
> provider just for this traffic, or meet them at an IX and send my traffic 
> from there.
>
> About the staff rotation I’ve seen it too, and I’ve also seen an increase in 
> salespeople calling, for example when an AS is registered etc. in addition to 
> the normal calls..
>
> On 16 Oct 2018, at 16:54, Dovid Bender  (mailto:do...@telecurve.com)> wrote:
> > They call me every few months. the last time they emailed me I said I 
> > wasn't interested because of the HE issue. I have yet to get another 
> > email...
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 9:29 AM, Ca By  > (mailto:cb.li...@gmail.com)> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 5:16 AM David Hubbard 
> > > mailto:dhubb...@dino.hostasaurus.com)> 
> > > wrote:
> > > > Have had the same sales rep for several years now; unfortunately he has 
> > > > no ability to fix their IPv6 peering issue so we’re slowly removing 
> > > > circuits, but otherwise for a handful of 10gig DIA circuits it’s been 
> > > > stable.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Yep, this. Whenever Cogent calls, this is what i tell them. Black-holing 
> > > HE and Google ipv6 traffic, which is what they do if i use a default 
> > > route from them, is dead on arrival. Shows they make bad decisions and 
> > > dont put the customer first, or even create such an illusion.
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: NANOG mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org)> 
> > > > on behalf of Ryan Gelobter  > > > (mailto:rya...@atwgpc.net)>
> > > > Date: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 at 6:04 AM
> > > > To: NANOG mailto:nanog@nanog.org)>
> > > > Subject: Whats going on at Cogent
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Anyone else seen terrible support and high turnover of sales/account 
> > > > people at Cogent the last few months? Is there something going on over 
> > > > there internally? I'm sure some people will say Cogent has always been 
> > > > crap but in the past their account reps and support were pretty good. 
> > > > It seems to have gone downhill the last 12 months really bad.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > >
> > > > Ryan
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

Re: NAT on a Trident/Qumran(/or other?) equipped whitebox?

[James Bensley]

On Mon, 15 Oct 2018 at 10:07,  wrote:
>
> Interesting, but isn’t stateful tracking once again just swapping, but in 
> this case port 123 in port 32123 out?
>
> So none of the chips you named below support swapping parts of L4 header and 
> that part is actually done with SW assistance please?
>
> So for example the following:
>
> https://eos.arista.com/7150s-nat-practical-guide-source-nat-dynamic/#2Dynamic_Source_NATOverload_Many_to_one
>
> - wouldn’t be at line-rate please?

Hi Adam,

NAT/PAT is an N:1 swapping (map) though so a state/translation table
is required to correctly "swap" back the return traffic. MPLS for
example is 1:1 mapping/action. NAT/PAT state tables tend to fill
quickly so to aid with this we also have timers to time out the
translations and free up space in the translation table, and also
track e.g. TCP RST or TCP FIN to remove entries from the table, so
it's not "just swapping".

Cheers,
James.

Re: Whats going on at Cogent

[DaKnOb]

When I call and mention it I’m told that it’s HE’s fault (despite the lovely 
cake), but when I also bring Google, then they tell me to get a different 
provider just for this traffic, or meet them at an IX and send my traffic from 
there.

About the staff rotation I’ve seen it too, and I’ve also seen an increase in 
salespeople calling, for example when an AS is registered etc. in addition to 
the normal calls..

> On 16 Oct 2018, at 16:54, Dovid Bender  wrote:
> 
> They call me every few months. the last time they emailed me I said I wasn't 
> interested because of the HE issue. I have yet to get another email...
> 
> 
>> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 9:29 AM, Ca By  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 5:16 AM David Hubbard 
>>>  wrote:
>>> Have had the same sales rep for several years now; unfortunately he has no 
>>> ability to fix their IPv6 peering issue so we’re slowly removing circuits, 
>>> but otherwise for a handful of 10gig DIA circuits it’s been stable.
>>> 
>> 
>> Yep, this.  Whenever Cogent calls, this is what i tell them. Black-holing HE 
>> and Google ipv6 traffic, which is what they do if i use a default route from 
>> them, is dead on arrival.  Shows they make bad decisions and dont put the 
>> customer first, or even create such an illusion. 
>> 
>> 
>>> From: NANOG  on behalf of Ryan Gelobter 
>>> 
>>> Date: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 at 6:04 AM
>>> To: NANOG 
>>> Subject: Whats going on at Cogent
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Anyone else seen terrible support and high turnover of sales/account people 
>>> at Cogent the last few months? Is there something going on over there 
>>> internally? I'm sure some people will say Cogent has always been crap but 
>>> in the past their account reps and support were pretty good. It seems to 
>>> have gone downhill the last 12 months really bad.
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> 
>>> Ryan
>>> 
> 

Re: Whats going on at Cogent

[Dovid Bender]

They call me every few months. the last time they emailed me I said I
wasn't interested because of the HE issue. I have yet to get another
email...


On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 9:29 AM, Ca By  wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 5:16 AM David Hubbard <
> dhubb...@dino.hostasaurus.com> wrote:
>
>> Have had the same sales rep for several years now; unfortunately he has
>> no ability to fix their IPv6 peering issue so we’re slowly removing
>> circuits, but otherwise for a handful of 10gig DIA circuits it’s been
>> stable.
>>
>>
>>
>
> Yep, this.  Whenever Cogent calls, this is what i tell them. Black-holing
> HE and Google ipv6 traffic, which is what they do if i use a default route
> from them, is dead on arrival.  Shows they make bad decisions and dont put
> the customer first, or even create such an illusion.
>
>
> *From: *NANOG  on behalf of Ryan Gelobter <
>> rya...@atwgpc.net>
>> *Date: *Tuesday, October 16, 2018 at 6:04 AM
>> *To: *NANOG 
>> *Subject: *Whats going on at Cogent
>>
>>
>>
>> Anyone else seen terrible support and high turnover of sales/account
>> people at Cogent the last few months? Is there something going on over
>> there internally? I'm sure some people will say Cogent has always been crap
>> but in the past their account reps and support were pretty good. It seems
>> to have gone downhill the last 12 months really bad.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Ryan
>>
>

Re: Whats going on at Cogent

[Ca By]

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 5:16 AM David Hubbard 
wrote:

> Have had the same sales rep for several years now; unfortunately he has no
> ability to fix their IPv6 peering issue so we’re slowly removing circuits,
> but otherwise for a handful of 10gig DIA circuits it’s been stable.
>
>
>

Yep, this.  Whenever Cogent calls, this is what i tell them. Black-holing
HE and Google ipv6 traffic, which is what they do if i use a default route
from them, is dead on arrival.  Shows they make bad decisions and dont put
the customer first, or even create such an illusion.


*From: *NANOG  on behalf of Ryan Gelobter <
> rya...@atwgpc.net>
> *Date: *Tuesday, October 16, 2018 at 6:04 AM
> *To: *NANOG 
> *Subject: *Whats going on at Cogent
>
>
>
> Anyone else seen terrible support and high turnover of sales/account
> people at Cogent the last few months? Is there something going on over
> there internally? I'm sure some people will say Cogent has always been crap
> but in the past their account reps and support were pretty good. It seems
> to have gone downhill the last 12 months really bad.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Ryan
>

Re: Whats going on at Cogent

[Mike Hammett]

That's *ALWAYS* been my experience with Cogent. 

*cue e-mail from Cogent rep* 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

Midwest-IX 
http://www.midwest-ix.com 

- Original Message -

From: "Ryan Gelobter"  
To: "NANOG"  
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 5:02:59 AM 
Subject: Whats going on at Cogent 



Anyone else seen terrible support and high turnover of sales/account people at 
Cogent the last few months? Is there something going on over there internally? 
I'm sure some people will say Cogent has always been crap but in the past their 
account reps and support were pretty good. It seems to have gone downhill the 
last 12 months really bad. 


Regards, 
Ryan 

Re: Whats going on at Cogent

[David Hubbard]

Have had the same sales rep for several years now; unfortunately he has no 
ability to fix their IPv6 peering issue so we’re slowly removing circuits, but 
otherwise for a handful of 10gig DIA circuits it’s been stable.

From: NANOG  on behalf of Ryan Gelobter 

Date: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 at 6:04 AM
To: NANOG 
Subject: Whats going on at Cogent

Anyone else seen terrible support and high turnover of sales/account people at 
Cogent the last few months? Is there something going on over there internally? 
I'm sure some people will say Cogent has always been crap but in the past their 
account reps and support were pretty good. It seems to have gone downhill the 
last 12 months really bad.

Regards,
Ryan

SAFNOG-4/EANOG/tzNOG: Thank You & Survey

[Mark Tinka]

Hello all.

On behalf of the SAFNOG Management Committee, EANOG and tzNOG, I'd like
to extend my sincere thanks to all of you that attended this year's
meeting in Dar Es Salaam, physically and remotely.

To our host (TISPA), our sponsors, our speakers and of course, you, our
delegates, that supported this year's meeting... we would not have been
able to do it without you.

We look forward to seeing you again in 2019, details of which will be
communicated in the coming months.

I would like to ask you to take a few minutes and complete the
10-question survey at the link below, so that we know where to improve
for future meetings:

    https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/JQTKVVF

Thank you all, and see you in 2019.

Mark Tinka

Re: Whats going on at Cogent

[John Hurley]

I think I noticed this actually start a bit longer than that. Around the
time they started charging for BGP sessions and IP blocks on existing
customers. So at least a year but I think closer to two years ago.

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 6:22 AM John Hurley  wrote:

> I am glad I'm not the only one. I've noticed similar. Just when I get used
> to one rep it seems I have a new one.
>
> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 6:04 AM Ryan Gelobter  wrote:
>
>> Anyone else seen terrible support and high turnover of sales/account
>> people at Cogent the last few months? Is there something going on over
>> there internally? I'm sure some people will say Cogent has always been crap
>> but in the past their account reps and support were pretty good. It seems
>> to have gone downhill the last 12 months really bad.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Ryan
>>
>

Re: Whats going on at Cogent

[John Hurley]

I am glad I'm not the only one. I've noticed similar. Just when I get used
to one rep it seems I have a new one.

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 6:04 AM Ryan Gelobter  wrote:

> Anyone else seen terrible support and high turnover of sales/account
> people at Cogent the last few months? Is there something going on over
> there internally? I'm sure some people will say Cogent has always been crap
> but in the past their account reps and support were pretty good. It seems
> to have gone downhill the last 12 months really bad.
>
> Regards,
> Ryan
>

Whats going on at Cogent

[Ryan Gelobter]

Anyone else seen terrible support and high turnover of sales/account people
at Cogent the last few months? Is there something going on over there
internally? I'm sure some people will say Cogent has always been crap but
in the past their account reps and support were pretty good. It seems to
have gone downhill the last 12 months really bad.

Regards,
Ryan