Re: Last Mile Design

[Ben Cannon]

PON in my view is well suited for residential distribution and use profiles.  
10G/XG-PON at 10gig/2.5gig is a pretty serious residential connection and even 
2.5/1 is pretty great for residential 1/1 symmetric service.

That said, I would in urban environments not recommend designing for GPON 
physical cable plan - go AE on your cabling.  Play with PON if you want more 
headaches here with little redeeming features IMO.   Instead, design 
rings/meshes, and think redundant/diverse path and entry/distro.  There’s a 
reason telco standards work. These days there’s little reason to separate 
residential vs commercial traffic, it’s all packets at our scale.  Our core is 
agnostic and switches anything we throw it at hardware speed, and it’s HA (min 
2 core routers in every POP - even some customer buildings have 
diverse/redundant fiber entry from us now, back to multiple $alldayallnightjob 
POPs no less, in some cases to meet regulatory minimum standards compliance.  
All of our DCs are built this way.Fact is, if you want a network to be fast 
as hell, and never ever go down, think redundant everything with diversity.  

That said, for rural distribution, especially cheap aerial residential services 
in far flung locations - there’s literally nothing finer and faster and more 
cost effective than GPON - which is HUGELY important for reaching the final 15 
MILLION Americans that do not have broadband internet connections at all.

For those people, GPON can be nothing short of utterly life transforming.

-Ben Cannon
CEO 6x7 Networks & 6x7 Telecom, LLC 
b...@6by7.net 




> On Feb 8, 2019, at 10:22 PM, Mikael Abrahamsson  wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 8 Feb 2019, Chris Gross wrote:
> 
>> For a lot of us, PONs are a way of life and may not even have any 100G 
>> capable devices in our network, muchless enough to make our money on. While 
>> you may be so "lucky" to "never really take it seriously", it is supporting 
>> hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of homes in the US.
>> 
>> PON is the lifeblood if many rural communities. I'm luckily to have a 
>> healthy mix of PON and AE operations since I'm located next to cities. But 
>> I've met cooperatives in the middle of no where with super low density where 
>> it's 6 people + 2 donkeys on staff. AE would never work there, but PONs 
>> allow them cheap and available broadband options.
>> 
>> Unless someone wants to give enough funding to run AE to people's homes, 
>> PONs will continue to allow many communities to have more than cellular 
>> internet access options, if that.
> 
> PON and AE both have their strengths and weakness and make sense for 
> different deployment scenarios. My biggest problem with PON is that it seems 
> some operators build their fiber plant for PON for all deployment cases and 
> then it's extremely hard to back out of it and switch to AE. If you have AE 
> you can switch to PON fairly easily, but not the other way around if you've 
> put splitters in the manholes.
> 
> -- 
> Mikael Abrahamssonemail: swm...@swm.pp.se

Re: Last Mile Design

[Mark Tinka]

On 8/Feb/19 19:44, Brandon Martin wrote:

>  
>
> I'm thinking that, if you push L3 termination all the way out to the
> last access node (FTTN DSLAM being the obvious one here), you may then
> lack a decent way to haul pure Ethernet back to their head-end.  If
> your L3 termination also supports MPLS, or Q-in-Q, you're probably
> fine.  The latter might negate the potential advantages of distributed
> L3 from a routing POV by forcing you to again run STP or similar.
>
> If you're doing L3 termination a bit more centralized, even if not
> with big behemoths on a "one per super-metro" basis, this may not be a
> problem at all.  HFC and FTTx PONs might end up being like that
> inherently just because of the nature of the plant and tech that runs
> on it.

My assumption is that you'd be running full IP/MPLS all the way into the
Access. In that case, what I'm saying is that you can run EoMPLS to
deliver the service.

Mark.

RE: VPS providers contacts

[Ryan Hamel]

Mehmet,

On our network automation, we “drive” each product through SSH/telnet and use 
the native terminal or netconf. This automation has been around before netconf 
was a concept, anything new is simple as writing the configuration snippets, 
creating the functions in the abstracted automation classes, and overriding it 
in vendor model specific classes.

This same template idea could be used to generate BIRD configurations that can 
go into a pre-defined folder from the main config file, and trigger a soft 
reload. I personally can’t wrap my head around BIRD since I came from the 
traditional network hardware background, but it certainly does have its place 
in the automation sector.

Just make sure your system has a way to log each step from the device and 
program functions for checks and balances, and combine it all in a transaction 
like process, along with throwing an exception on data it doesn’t know to 
expect, and rolling back the changes if it’s possible.

--
Ryan Hamel
Network Administrator
ryan.ha...@quadranet.com | +1 (888) 578-2372
QuadraNet Enterprises, LLC. | Dedicated Servers, Colocation, Cloud

Re: Last Mile Design

[Mikael Abrahamsson]

On Fri, 8 Feb 2019, Chris Gross wrote:

For a lot of us, PONs are a way of life and may not even have any 100G 
capable devices in our network, muchless enough to make our money on. 
While you may be so "lucky" to "never really take it seriously", it is 
supporting hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of homes in the US.


PON is the lifeblood if many rural communities. I'm luckily to have a 
healthy mix of PON and AE operations since I'm located next to cities. 
But I've met cooperatives in the middle of no where with super low 
density where it's 6 people + 2 donkeys on staff. AE would never work 
there, but PONs allow them cheap and available broadband options.


Unless someone wants to give enough funding to run AE to people's homes, 
PONs will continue to allow many communities to have more than cellular 
internet access options, if that.


PON and AE both have their strengths and weakness and make sense for 
different deployment scenarios. My biggest problem with PON is that it 
seems some operators build their fiber plant for PON for all deployment 
cases and then it's extremely hard to back out of it and switch to AE. If 
you have AE you can switch to PON fairly easily, but not the other way 
around if you've put splitters in the manholes.


--
Mikael Abrahamssonemail: swm...@swm.pp.se

VPS providers contacts

[Mehmet Akcin]

Hey there

I am looking to get in touch with VPS providers (like vultr.com etc.) which
has all automated control panel to ask few questions regarding BGP
implementation and overall automated control panel related stuff.

I have been trying to get a hold of someone from virtkick.com which on
paper sounded like exactly what i needed but unfortunately got no response
from them.

thanks in advance

mehmet

Comcast - NTT seeing congestion in Chicago at 350 Cermak

[Erik Sundberg]

Comcast\NTT,

I am seeing a bit of congestion between the NTT and Comcast connection in 
Chicago. Can you guys take a look at this?


Normally this is a sub 10ms path, it running at 100ms.



speedtest (0.0.0.0)   Fri 
Feb  8 20:23:49 2019
Keys:  Help   Display mode   Restart statistics   Order of fields   quit
  Packets   
Pings
 Host   Loss%   Snt   Last   
Avg  Best  Wrst StDev
 1. 45.61.24.33  0.0%   8621.0   
1.1   0.9  24.9   1.6
 2. te-0-0-25.ear2.chi2.us.nitelusa.net  0.0%   8620.9   
0.9   0.8  54.4   2.2
 3. te-0-0-25.ear1.chi2.us.nitelusa.net  0.0%   8621.5   
1.2   0.9  34.5   1.6
 4. te-0-0-24.ear1.chi1.us.nitelusa.net  0.0%   8621.1   
1.1   0.9  74.4   3.0
 5. te-0-0-1-0.cr1.chi1.us.nitelusa.net  0.0%   8620.8   
0.7   0.7  13.7   0.6
 6. xe-0-0-8-0.a02.chcgil09.us.bb.gin.ntt.net0.0%   861   42.5   
2.7   0.3  54.7   6.4
 7. ae-0.comcast.chcgil09.us.bb.gin.ntt.net  0.5%   861  102.1  
99.1  42.0 120.2  10.3
 8. be-10577-cr02.350ecermak.il.ibone.comcast.net0.6%   861  113.8 
100.7  41.6 161.0  10.7
 9. be-7922-ar01.area4.il.chicago.comcast.net1.2%   861  107.8 
100.7  45.1 127.6  10.8
10. be-123-rur02.homewood.il.chicago.comcast.net 0.6%   861  106.9 
102.0  42.1 123.6  10.8
11. 68.87.235.2060.9%   861  102.0 
101.8  44.7 140.1  10.7
12. c-xxx.hsd1.il.comcast.net0.7%   861  103.1 
110.7  49.9 136.4  10.5




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Re: Last Mile Design

[Chris Gross]

For a lot of us, PONs are a way of life and may not even have any 100G capable 
devices in our network, muchless enough to make our money on. While you may be 
so "lucky" to "never really take it seriously", it is supporting hundreds of 
thousands, if not millions, of homes in the US.

PON is the lifeblood if many rural communities. I'm luckily to have a healthy 
mix of PON and AE operations since I'm located next to cities. But I've met 
cooperatives in the middle of no where with super low density where it's 6 
people + 2 donkeys on staff. AE would never work there, but PONs allow them 
cheap and available broadband options.

Unless someone wants to give enough funding to run AE to people's homes, PONs 
will continue to allow many communities to have more than cellular internet 
access options, if that.

This email has been sent from my phone. Please excuse any brevity, typos, or 
lack of formality.

From: Aaron 
Sent: Friday, February 8, 2019 16:03
To: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: Last Mile Design

My statement was meant to be tongue in cheek.  We deliver 1G to the home
free of charge and make our money on the 10,40 and 100G connections.  We
haven't been able to deliver those capacities over PON so we've never
really taken it seriously.  As with everything else, you're use case and
economics may vary.

Aaron


On 2/8/2019 2:31 PM, Tony Wicks wrote:
> It also significantly reduces the requirement to distribute active equipment 
> into the field while massively reducing the feeder fibre requirement. Point 
> to point has its place to be sure, but mass market FTTH is not viable without 
> PON's economics.
>
>
> On 02/08/2019 12:48 PM, Aaron wrote:
>> I've always felt PON is a tool for people who don't know how to design a
>> proper network.
> Why is that?
>
> I always thought PON was a technology that reduced the number of active
> ports, thus altering the port cost per subscriber significantly by not
> actually needing dedicated ports.
>
>
>

--

Aaron Wendel
Chief Technical Officer
Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097)
(816)550-9030
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wholesaleinternet.comdata=02%7C01%7C%7C4dd5a2f0e3104555418808d68e08f0ac%7C453303889ca9424bbe1a29721272041d%7C1%7C0%7C636852566386965544sdata=1ICTe0CT6jJ1zyXEzxKK1epS%2BBxFhqAS1Yyv%2FFdAD7k%3Dreserved=0

Re: Last Mile Design

[David Ratkay]

I want to work in a ISP environment and all the input here has helped.
Thanks!

On Thu, Feb 7, 2019, 6:46 PM David Ratkay  I am not sure if this is a easy question to answer. But I am wondering
> what ISP's do for their residential and business customers for designing
> POP's that they usually access to get theur traffic into a given ISP and
> beyond. Is it usually a L1/L2 connection from the CE to the last mile POP?
> Or L2 even within the last mile POP. Do you just have POP's delegated to
> residential users and a separate POP for business users. Or is it done on a
> geographical basis. So for this region of City-A we manage both residential
> and business customers at this same POP.
>

RE: Last Mile Design

[Aaron Gould]

We do 1 gig over pon (gpon)...Calix E7 (olt)

Yes, it's my understanding, and I agree with previous post response, that PON 
is for using 1 fiber strand to a home (bidir , different wavelengths for xmt 
and rcv) and then I believe it even gets prism'd (however the heck they do it) 
into a 1/32 split or something like that so that you don't have to run direct 
fibers from every home back to the CO

...AND, in a rural area, geez, those are lggg fiber runs so a pon 
cabinet in the field helps greatly

Yes, 2.4g down and  1.2 g up is a concern when you've sold (oversubscribed) 
more bw than that 

We are concerned and looking for ways to overcome this and keep up with 
subscriber bw demands all the time ... fun and job secure

-Aaron another Aaron :) 



-Original Message-
From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Aaron
Sent: Friday, February 8, 2019 3:02 PM
To: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: Last Mile Design

My statement was meant to be tongue in cheek.  We deliver 1G to the home 
free of charge and make our money on the 10,40 and 100G connections.  We 
haven't been able to deliver those capacities over PON so we've never 
really taken it seriously.  As with everything else, you're use case and 
economics may vary.

Aaron


On 2/8/2019 2:31 PM, Tony Wicks wrote:
> It also significantly reduces the requirement to distribute active equipment 
> into the field while massively reducing the feeder fibre requirement. Point 
> to point has its place to be sure, but mass market FTTH is not viable without 
> PON's economics.
>
>
> On 02/08/2019 12:48 PM, Aaron wrote:
>> I've always felt PON is a tool for people who don't know how to design a
>> proper network.
> Why is that?
>
> I always thought PON was a technology that reduced the number of active
> ports, thus altering the port cost per subscriber significantly by not
> actually needing dedicated ports.
>
>
>

-- 

Aaron Wendel
Chief Technical Officer
Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097)
(816)550-9030
http://www.wholesaleinternet.com

Re: Last Mile Design

[Aaron]

My statement was meant to be tongue in cheek.  We deliver 1G to the home 
free of charge and make our money on the 10,40 and 100G connections.  We 
haven't been able to deliver those capacities over PON so we've never 
really taken it seriously.  As with everything else, you're use case and 
economics may vary.


Aaron


On 2/8/2019 2:31 PM, Tony Wicks wrote:

It also significantly reduces the requirement to distribute active equipment 
into the field while massively reducing the feeder fibre requirement. Point to 
point has its place to be sure, but mass market FTTH is not viable without 
PON's economics.


On 02/08/2019 12:48 PM, Aaron wrote:

I've always felt PON is a tool for people who don't know how to design a
proper network.

Why is that?

I always thought PON was a technology that reduced the number of active
ports, thus altering the port cost per subscriber significantly by not
actually needing dedicated ports.





--

Aaron Wendel
Chief Technical Officer
Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097)
(816)550-9030
http://www.wholesaleinternet.com

RE: Last Mile Design

[Tony Wicks]

It also significantly reduces the requirement to distribute active equipment 
into the field while massively reducing the feeder fibre requirement. Point to 
point has its place to be sure, but mass market FTTH is not viable without 
PON's economics.


On 02/08/2019 12:48 PM, Aaron wrote:
> I've always felt PON is a tool for people who don't know how to design a 
> proper network.

Why is that?

I always thought PON was a technology that reduced the number of active
ports, thus altering the port cost per subscriber significantly by not
actually needing dedicated ports.



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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Re: Last Mile Design

[Grant Taylor via NANOG]

On 02/08/2019 12:48 PM, Aaron wrote:
I've always felt PON is a tool for people who don't know how to design a 
proper network.


Why is that?

I always thought PON was a technology that reduced the number of active 
ports, thus altering the port cost per subscriber significantly by not 
actually needing dedicated ports.




--
Grant. . . .
unix || die



smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature

Re: Last Mile Design

[Aaron]

I've always felt PON is a tool for people who don't know how to design a 
proper network.


Aaron


On 2/8/2019 1:38 PM, Miles Fidelman wrote:

Good for you.  None of this PON splitter nonsense.

Miles Fidelman

On 2/8/19 2:17 PM, Aaron wrote:
We run direct fiber connections to each house and business and 
terminate them on the same switches.  Our switches are housed in 
small "huts" that are dispersed throughout the city and each handle a 
specific area then the huts are all connected in a ring. It really 
comes down to what your geography looks like.


Aaron


On 2/7/2019 5:46 PM, David Ratkay wrote:
I am not sure if this is a easy question to answer. But I am 
wondering what ISP's do for their residential and business customers 
for designing POP's that they usually access to get theur traffic 
into a given ISP and beyond. Is it usually a L1/L2 connection from 
the CE to the last mile POP? Or L2 even within the last mile POP. Do 
you just have POP's delegated to residential users and a separate 
POP for business users. Or is it done on a geographical basis. So 
for this region of City-A we manage both residential and business 
customers at this same POP.




--

Aaron Wendel
Chief Technical Officer
Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097)
(816)550-9030
http://www.wholesaleinternet.com

Re: Last Mile Design

[Miles Fidelman]

Good for you.  None of this PON splitter nonsense.

Miles Fidelman

On 2/8/19 2:17 PM, Aaron wrote:
We run direct fiber connections to each house and business and 
terminate them on the same switches.  Our switches are housed in small 
"huts" that are dispersed throughout the city and each handle a 
specific area then the huts are all connected in a ring. It really 
comes down to what your geography looks like.


Aaron


On 2/7/2019 5:46 PM, David Ratkay wrote:
I am not sure if this is a easy question to answer. But I am 
wondering what ISP's do for their residential and business customers 
for designing POP's that they usually access to get theur traffic 
into a given ISP and beyond. Is it usually a L1/L2 connection from 
the CE to the last mile POP? Or L2 even within the last mile POP. Do 
you just have POP's delegated to residential users and a separate POP 
for business users. Or is it done on a geographical basis. So for 
this region of City-A we manage both residential and business 
customers at this same POP.



--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.   Yogi Berra

Re: Last Mile Design

[Aaron]

We run direct fiber connections to each house and business and terminate 
them on the same switches.  Our switches are housed in small "huts" that 
are dispersed throughout the city and each handle a specific area then 
the huts are all connected in a ring. It really comes down to what your 
geography looks like.


Aaron


On 2/7/2019 5:46 PM, David Ratkay wrote:
I am not sure if this is a easy question to answer. But I am wondering 
what ISP's do for their residential and business customers for 
designing POP's that they usually access to get theur traffic into a 
given ISP and beyond. Is it usually a L1/L2 connection from the CE to 
the last mile POP? Or L2 even within the last mile POP. Do you just 
have POP's delegated to residential users and a separate POP for 
business users. Or is it done on a geographical basis. So for this 
region of City-A we manage both residential and business customers at 
this same POP.


--

Aaron Wendel
Chief Technical Officer
Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097)
(816)550-9030
http://www.wholesaleinternet.com

Weekly Routing Table Report

[Routing Analysis Role Account]

This is an automated weekly mailing describing the state of the Internet
Routing Table as seen from APNIC's router in Japan.

The posting is sent to APOPS, NANOG, AfNOG, SANOG, PacNOG, SAFNOG
TZNOG, MENOG, BJNOG, SDNOG, CMNOG, LACNOG and the RIPE Routing WG.

Daily listings are sent to bgp-st...@lists.apnic.net

For historical data, please see http://thyme.rand.apnic.net.

If you have any comments please contact Philip Smith .

Routing Table Report   04:00 +10GMT Sat 09 Feb, 2019

Report Website: http://thyme.rand.apnic.net
Detailed Analysis:  http://thyme.rand.apnic.net/current/

Analysis Summary


BGP routing table entries examined:  735782
Prefixes after maximum aggregation (per Origin AS):  283896
Deaggregation factor:  2.59
Unique aggregates announced (without unneeded subnets):  354692
Total ASes present in the Internet Routing Table: 63154
Prefixes per ASN: 11.65
Origin-only ASes present in the Internet Routing Table:   54395
Origin ASes announcing only one prefix:   23628
Transit ASes present in the Internet Routing Table:8759
Transit-only ASes present in the Internet Routing Table:269
Average AS path length visible in the Internet Routing Table:   4.2
Max AS path length visible:  31
Max AS path prepend of ASN ( 16327)  25
Prefixes from unregistered ASNs in the Routing Table:23
Number of instances of unregistered ASNs:25
Number of 32-bit ASNs allocated by the RIRs:  25701
Number of 32-bit ASNs visible in the Routing Table:   20922
Prefixes from 32-bit ASNs in the Routing Table:   90815
Number of bogon 32-bit ASNs visible in the Routing Table:18
Special use prefixes present in the Routing Table:1
Prefixes being announced from unallocated address space:272
Number of addresses announced to Internet:   2840238979
Equivalent to 169 /8s, 74 /16s and 155 /24s
Percentage of available address space announced:   76.7
Percentage of allocated address space announced:   76.7
Percentage of available address space allocated:  100.0
Percentage of address space in use by end-sites:   99.2
Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations:  246466

APNIC Region Analysis Summary
-

Prefixes being announced by APNIC Region ASes:   200254
Total APNIC prefixes after maximum aggregation:   57486
APNIC Deaggregation factor:3.48
Prefixes being announced from the APNIC address blocks:  197290
Unique aggregates announced from the APNIC address blocks:81759
APNIC Region origin ASes present in the Internet Routing Table:9439
APNIC Prefixes per ASN:   20.90
APNIC Region origin ASes announcing only one prefix:   2672
APNIC Region transit ASes present in the Internet Routing Table:   1405
Average APNIC Region AS path length visible:4.1
Max APNIC Region AS path length visible: 26
Number of APNIC region 32-bit ASNs visible in the Routing Table:   4441
Number of APNIC addresses announced to Internet:  769736994
Equivalent to 45 /8s, 225 /16s and 65 /24s
APNIC AS Blocks4608-4864, 7467-7722, 9216-10239, 17408-18431
(pre-ERX allocations)  23552-24575, 37888-38911, 45056-46079, 55296-56319,
   58368-59391, 63488-64098, 64297-64395, 131072-139577
APNIC Address Blocks 1/8,  14/8,  27/8,  36/8,  39/8,  42/8,  43/8,
49/8,  58/8,  59/8,  60/8,  61/8, 101/8, 103/8,
   106/8, 110/8, 111/8, 112/8, 113/8, 114/8, 115/8,
   116/8, 117/8, 118/8, 119/8, 120/8, 121/8, 122/8,
   123/8, 124/8, 125/8, 126/8, 133/8, 150/8, 153/8,
   163/8, 171/8, 175/8, 180/8, 182/8, 183/8, 202/8,
   203/8, 210/8, 211/8, 218/8, 219/8, 220/8, 221/8,
   222/8, 223/8,

ARIN Region Analysis Summary


Prefixes being announced by ARIN Region ASes:217826
Total ARIN prefixes after maximum aggregation:   103457
ARIN Deaggregation factor: 2.11
Prefixes being announced from the ARIN address blocks:   217127
Unique aggregates announced from the ARIN address blocks:104021
ARIN Region origin ASes present in the Internet Routing Table:18351
ARIN Prefixes per ASN:11.83
ARIN 

Re: Last Mile Design

[Brandon Martin]

On 2/8/19 2:07 AM, Mark Tinka wrote:


I do like to separate SMB and Resi traffic, but it's mostly for
customer service reasons rather than technical reasons.  That
separation rarely entails separate equipment but rather just VLANs and
PCPs, IP subnets, etc.


Many years ago, I did consider running both Consumer and Enterprise
traffic on one router - and for purposes of pride, I'm sure the major
vendors would like to boast that they could allow you to do this. But in
practice, it's probably a bad idea... BNG's have too many moving parts,
and for some platforms, there is actually special code optimized for BNG
deployments that may have an impact on traditional Enterprise or Service
Provider customers.

So I would separate BNG's from regular edge routers.


Enterprise DIA is a whole different beast.  For sure, that stays 
separate at least for now.  Some of the forthcoming PON technologies 
have so much bandwidth that it may become attractive to start merging 
them at the access layer for smaller customers, and then I guess we'll 
have to see what the best way to handle L3 termination on that is.


If anything, just ensuring that the (often) separate tech teams have the 
proper access to it and knowledge of what the others are doing might be 
a bit of an issue.




If you're in a position where you want to or have to offer competitors
access to your network to sell service directly to customers, that's
also going to potentially really change the situation.


Why? Chances are they will require Ethernet access between their
customer and their head-end, which is a typical scenario.


I'm thinking that, if you push L3 termination all the way out to the 
last access node (FTTN DSLAM being the obvious one here), you may then 
lack a decent way to haul pure Ethernet back to their head-end.  If your 
L3 termination also supports MPLS, or Q-in-Q, you're probably fine.  The 
latter might negate the potential advantages of distributed L3 from a 
routing POV by forcing you to again run STP or similar.


If you're doing L3 termination a bit more centralized, even if not with 
big behemoths on a "one per super-metro" basis, this may not be a 
problem at all.  HFC and FTTx PONs might end up being like that 
inherently just because of the nature of the plant and tech that runs on it.

--
Brandon Martin