RE: power to the internet

[Don Gould]

This is a very short term problem. The market is going to fill with battery 
storage sooner rather than later. Solar is just exploding. Your car will "house 
tie".6G will solve your data problem. D-- Don Gould5 Cargill 
PlaceRichmondChristchurch, New ZealandMobile/Telegram: + 64 21 114 
0699www.bowenvale.co.nz
 Original message From: Michael Thomas  Date: 
26/12/19  2:33 PM  (GMT+12:00) To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: power to the 
internet 
https://www.politico.com/news/2019/12/25/california-power-shutoffs-089678This 
article details some of the issues with California's "new reality" of planned 
blackouts. One of the big things that came to light with these blackouts is 
that our network infrastructure's resilience is pretty lacking. While I was 
(surprisingly to me) ok with my DSL connection out in the boonies, lots and 
lots of people with cable weren't so lucky. And I'm not sure how bad the 
situation is with cellular infrastructure, but I assume it's not much better 
than cable. And I wouldn't doubt that other DSL deployments go dark when power 
is down. I have no clue with fiber.So I guess what I'm wondering is what can we 
do about this? What should we do about this? These days IP access is not just 
convenience, it's the way we go about our lives, just like electricity itself. 
At base, it seems to me that network operators should be required to keep the 
lights on in blackouts just like POTS operators do now. If I have power to 
light my modem or charge in my phone, I should be able to get onto the net. 
That seems like table stakes.One of the things we learned also is that the 
blackouts seem to last between 2-3 days apiece. I happen to have a generator 
since I'm out in the boonies and our power gets cut regularly because of snow, 
but not everyone has that luxury. I kind of want to think that my router+modem 
use about 20 watts, so powering it up would take about 1.5kwh for 3 days. a 
quick google look shows that I'd probably need to shell out $500 or so for a 
battery of that capacity, and that's doesn't include your phones, laptops, 
tv's, etc power needs. What does that mean? That is a major expense for a lot 
of people.On the bright side, I hear that power generator companies stocks have 
gone through the roof.On the dark side, this is probably coming to a lot more 
states and countries due to climate change. Australia. Sigh.Mike

Re: power to the internet

[Constantine A. Murenin]

On Wed, 25 Dec 2019 at 22:08, Michael Thomas  wrote:

>
> On 12/25/19 7:26 PM, Constantine A. Murenin wrote:
> >
> > I'm an ex-California resident myself here
>
> Good riddance. This has nothing to do with the climate change that is
> actually happening here.
>
> Mike
>

Well, enjoy your climate change!  Surely has nothing to do with the ban of
preemptive burning that works in adjacent states just fine!

C

Re: power to the internet

[Michael Thomas]

On 12/25/19 7:26 PM, Constantine A. Murenin wrote:


I'm an ex-California resident myself here


Good riddance. This has nothing to do with the climate change that is 
actually happening here.


Mike

Re: power to the internet

[Michael Thomas]

On 12/25/19 7:10 PM, Stephen Satchell wrote:

On 12/25/19 6:29 PM, Michael Thomas wrote:
Yes, this is exactly right. My point here isn't to assign blame, but 
to ask what the hell we're going to do about it. Trying to score 
political points is disgusting.


Do you live in California?



Yes.

Mike

Re: power to the internet

[Constantine A. Murenin]

On Wed, 25 Dec 2019 at 20:29, Michael Thomas  wrote:

>
> On 12/25/19 6:16 PM, Michael Loftis wrote:
>
>
>
> Having lived through the blackouts that was entirely different. 90% Enron
> manipulating the markets. There was plenty of capacity both in transmission
> and generation, but Enron manipulated prices and apparent supply to make
> money and screwed the whole state over. There was just about 2x the
> generating capacity, no real shortage.
>
> This time it’s PG all alone, but still fallout from back then. Too much
> liability and they’ve not maintained the infrastructure and so they decided
> that to reduce the liability costs it’s cheaper to blackout. Same story
> again different colors. PG making a mint while people get screwed (PG
> was mostly at the getting screwed end in 2000-2001)
>
>
> Yes, this is exactly right. My point here isn't to assign blame, but to
> ask what the hell we're going to do about it. Trying to score political
> points is disgusting.
>
> Mike
>


The same thing we've always done and recommended — Vote With Your Wallet.
Move to state that takes care of its infrastructure and doesn't have such a
gridlock.  Or remain in California if you think "climate deniers" (whatever
that term may mean) are "disgusting".

As a consumer and internet infrastructure operator, I don't particularly
see or care about the difference between PG getting screwed or doing the
screwing.It's the populace of the state that gets the resulting fallout
in terms of the rolling blackouts.  Which other state has had this in the
last 20 years?

I'm an ex-California resident myself here — voted with my wallet already.
Love the idea and implementation of an independent power grid of my new
home state.

C.

Re: power to the internet

[Stephen Satchell]

On 12/25/19 6:29 PM, Michael Thomas wrote:
Yes, this is exactly right. My point here isn't to assign blame, but to 
ask what the hell we're going to do about it. Trying to score political 
points is disgusting.


Do you live in California?  Do you have your business in California? 
Take a look at neighboring states.  I did.  California madness is why I 
now live in Nevada.


Our ecology doesn't have the Austrailian plant Eucalyptus.  We do have 
tumbleweeds which pose their own fire risk.  Place like Lake Tahoe is 
heavily forested -- the difference is that in Nevada there is active 
fuel control and controlled burns, so we have fewer burn-to-the-ground 
fires in populated areas.


I used to make a living as a freelance writer.  A GOOD living.  In 
Nevada I'm outside the reach of CA AB 5 should I want to give up 
$DAYJOB.  When I have to subcontract freelance work, I won't hire a 
California resident, because I don't want to be controlled by any 
"long-reach" laws.  Because the law and Calufornia court decisions are 
currently silent about C, S, and LLC writers, I avoid them until the 
climate becomes clearer.


Do I experience power outages?  Yes.  Longest duration?  Several hours, 
when high winds cause damage (but that damage doesn't start wildfires). 
One very nice thing is that where I am, we have a geothermal power plant 
close by (on the order of 15 miles).  No pre-emptive wide-area 
shutdowns, though.


NV Energy has photoelectric arrays that are part of the utility, not 
only on private roof-tops.

Re: power to the internet

[Michael Thomas]

On 12/25/19 6:16 PM, Michael Loftis wrote:



Having lived through the blackouts that was entirely different. 90% 
Enron manipulating the markets. There was plenty of capacity both in 
transmission and generation, but Enron manipulated prices and apparent 
supply to make money and screwed the whole state over. There was just 
about 2x the generating capacity, no real shortage.


This time it’s PG all alone, but still fallout from back then. Too 
much liability and they’ve not maintained the infrastructure and so 
they decided that to reduce the liability costs it’s cheaper to 
blackout. Same story again different colors. PG making a mint while 
people get screwed (PG was mostly at the getting screwed end in 
2000-2001)




Yes, this is exactly right. My point here isn't to assign blame, but to 
ask what the hell we're going to do about it. Trying to score political 
points is disgusting.


Mike

Re: power to the internet

[Michael Thomas]

On 12/25/19 5:59 PM, Constantine A. Murenin wrote:
On Wed, 25 Dec 2019 at 19:32, Michael Thomas > wrote:


On the dark side, this is probably coming to a lot more states and
countries due to climate change. Australia. Sigh.


Do you have a source for this?  It would seem that these power issues 
are rather unique to California not because of some "climate change" 
bogeyman, but rather because of a failed public policy at the state level.


There's no point in engaging climate deniers. This is what's happening 
to us right now regardless of what science you choose to call 
"bogeymen". We are living in fear of becoming the next Paradise.


Mike

Re: power to the internet

[Michael Loftis]

On Wed, Dec 25, 2019 at 19:00 Constantine A. Murenin 
wrote:

> On Wed, 25 Dec 2019 at 19:32, Michael Thomas  wrote:
>
>> On the dark side, this is probably coming to a lot more states and
>> countries due to climate change. Australia. Sigh.
>>
>
> Do you have a source for this?  It would seem that these power issues are
> rather unique to California not because of some "climate change" bogeyman,
> but rather because of a failed public policy at the state level.
>
> It would also seem that these issues of rolling blackouts aren't even new
> to California, either, as, apparently, it's already been the norm during
> 2000/2001:
>


Having lived through the blackouts that was entirely different. 90% Enron
manipulating the markets. There was plenty of capacity both in transmission
and generation, but Enron manipulated prices and apparent supply to make
money and screwed the whole state over. There was just about 2x the
generating capacity, no real shortage.

This time it’s PG all alone, but still fallout from back then. Too much
liability and they’ve not maintained the infrastructure and so they decided
that to reduce the liability costs it’s cheaper to blackout. Same story
again different colors. PG making a mint while people get screwed (PG
was mostly at the getting screwed end in 2000-2001)

>
> * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_electricity_crisis
>
> C.
>
-- 

"Genius might be described as a supreme capacity for getting its possessors
into trouble of all kinds."
-- Samuel Butler

Re: power to the internet

[Constantine A. Murenin]

On Wed, 25 Dec 2019 at 19:32, Michael Thomas  wrote:

> On the dark side, this is probably coming to a lot more states and
> countries due to climate change. Australia. Sigh.
>

Do you have a source for this?  It would seem that these power issues are
rather unique to California not because of some "climate change" bogeyman,
but rather because of a failed public policy at the state level.

It would also seem that these issues of rolling blackouts aren't even new
to California, either, as, apparently, it's already been the norm during
2000/2001:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_electricity_crisis

C.

power to the internet

[Michael Thomas]

https://www.politico.com/news/2019/12/25/california-power-shutoffs-089678


This article details some of the issues with California's "new reality" 
of planned blackouts. One of the big things that came to light with 
these blackouts is that our network infrastructure's resilience is 
pretty lacking. While I was (surprisingly to me) ok with my DSL 
connection out in the boonies, lots and lots of people with cable 
weren't so lucky. And I'm not sure how bad the situation is with 
cellular infrastructure, but I assume it's not much better than cable. 
And I wouldn't doubt that other DSL deployments go dark when power is 
down. I have no clue with fiber.


So I guess what I'm wondering is what can we do about this? What should 
we do about this? These days IP access is not just convenience, it's the 
way we go about our lives, just like electricity itself. At base, it 
seems to me that network operators should be required to keep the lights 
on in blackouts just like POTS operators do now. If I have power to 
light my modem or charge in my phone, I should be able to get onto the 
net. That seems like table stakes.


One of the things we learned also is that the blackouts seem to last 
between 2-3 days apiece. I happen to have a generator since I'm out in 
the boonies and our power gets cut regularly because of snow, but not 
everyone has that luxury. I kind of want to think that my router+modem 
use about 20 watts, so powering it up would take about 1.5kwh for 3 
days. a quick google look shows that I'd probably need to shell out $500 
or so for a battery of that capacity, and that's doesn't include your 
phones, laptops, tv's, etc power needs. What does that mean? That is a 
major expense for a lot of people.


On the bright side, I hear that power generator companies stocks have 
gone through the roof.


On the dark side, this is probably coming to a lot more states and 
countries due to climate change. Australia. Sigh.


Mike

Re: BGP/dDos gift from NIST

[Ben Cannon]

I’m not getting my AS number tattooed on my wrist for a “little” i in Internet. 
Lol.

-Ben

> On Dec 25, 2019, at 10:34 AM, Royce Williams  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Wed, Dec 25, 2019 at 1:15 AM william manning  
>> wrote:
> 
>> https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/SpecialPublications/NIST.SP.800-189.pdf
> 
> I can't speak to the technical content, but this put a curdle in my morning 
> coffee:
> 
> "... that comprise the internet [sic]" .
> 
> Et tu, NIST?
> 
> I will die on this  "capital "I" in *the* Internet" hill. ;)
> 
> (And no, I don't care what the AP Stylebook decided to pull out of thin air, 
> with no understanding of how the Internet works or what it means; the 
> argument that "there are many possible internets" is specious, because that's 
> not what "the Internet" means; to the extent that various other "internets" 
> get balkanized out of the Internet, to the extent that they interconnect, 
> *that* will always and forever be "the Internet".)
> 
> What's next - geology textbooks calling our single, unique planet "the earth" 
> ? (Which brings to mind a great illustration of why "the Internet" matters: 
> if, by some happenstance of etymology, we referred to our planet solely as 
> "the Planet", then there could be many other planets, but only one Planet.)
> 
> (And regardless of what you call it ... thanks to each of you for operating 
> your piece of it!)
> 
> Royce

Re: BGP/dDos gift from NIST

[Royce Williams]

On Wed, Dec 25, 2019 at 1:15 AM william manning 
wrote:

> https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/SpecialPublications/NIST.SP.800-189.pdf
>

I can't speak to the technical content, but this put a curdle in my morning
coffee:

"... that comprise the internet [sic]" .

Et tu, NIST?

I will die on this  "capital "I" in *the* Internet" hill. ;)

(And no, I don't care what the AP Stylebook decided to pull out of thin
air, with no understanding of how the Internet works or what it means; the
argument that "there are many possible internets" is specious, because
that's not what "the Internet" means; to the extent that various other
"internets" get balkanized out of the Internet, to the extent that they
interconnect, *that* will always and forever be "the Internet".)

What's next - geology textbooks calling our single, unique planet "the
earth" ? (Which brings to mind a great illustration of why "the Internet"
matters: if, by some happenstance of etymology, we referred to our planet
solely as "the Planet", then there could be many other planets, but only
one Planet.)

(And regardless of what you call it ... thanks to each of you for operating
your piece of it!)

Royce

BGP/dDos gift from NIST

[william manning]

Thanks Doug.

https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/SpecialPublications/NIST.SP.800-189.pdf

/Wm