Re: private 5G networks?
Sorry, I wasn't sure what you meant by 3rd tier, but yes, we are talking about GAA. The important bit is as I stated is "or that nobody currently is transmitting on" And yes, the CBRS Radio, called a CBSD must be configured ahead of time to making freq grant requests to the SAS. This happens via the Mgmt. connection of the CBSD and is done via TLS over HTTP. Shane On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 6:22 PM John Gilmore wrote: > Michael Thomas wrote: > > > What do you mean 3rd Tier? > > General Authorized Access? Taken from some random site looking it up. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_Broadband_Radio_Service > > it has 3 tiers: > > * Incumbent access, primarily government and military radars, plus some > pre-existing band users. > > * 3550 to 3650 MHz in 10MHz chunks, allocated for priority users by census > tracts for up to 3 years, with up to 7 Priority Access Licenses per tract. > Competitive bidding for getting these licenses. > > * General Authorized Access users can use any of those chunks that aren't > assigned for priority use, or that nobody currently is transmitting on, > plus another 50 MHz at 3650-3700 in free-for-all mode unless there are > incumbents. > > A local Spectrum Access System (SAS) would program the individual devices > to > stay within the restrictions specified by the FCC and any licenses > issued to the operator, for a particular geography. > > John > > PS: The CBRS radio devices can't turn on their transmitter until they > talk a detailed negotiation to their SAS, via HTTP over TLS 1.2 over > IPv4. IPv6 support is optional. None of this negotiation appears to > happen over the radio, it's all apparently on Ethernet (or assumes some > separate Internet provisioning not done in CBRS spectrum). And there's > no discovery procedure, it's all done by manual configuration. See: > > https://winnf.memberclicks.net/assets/CBRS/WINNF-TS-0016.pdf >
Re: private 5G networks?
Michael Thomas wrote: > > What do you mean 3rd Tier? > General Authorized Access? Taken from some random site looking it up. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_Broadband_Radio_Service it has 3 tiers: * Incumbent access, primarily government and military radars, plus some pre-existing band users. * 3550 to 3650 MHz in 10MHz chunks, allocated for priority users by census tracts for up to 3 years, with up to 7 Priority Access Licenses per tract. Competitive bidding for getting these licenses. * General Authorized Access users can use any of those chunks that aren't assigned for priority use, or that nobody currently is transmitting on, plus another 50 MHz at 3650-3700 in free-for-all mode unless there are incumbents. A local Spectrum Access System (SAS) would program the individual devices to stay within the restrictions specified by the FCC and any licenses issued to the operator, for a particular geography. John PS: The CBRS radio devices can't turn on their transmitter until they talk a detailed negotiation to their SAS, via HTTP over TLS 1.2 over IPv4. IPv6 support is optional. None of this negotiation appears to happen over the radio, it's all apparently on Ethernet (or assumes some separate Internet provisioning not done in CBRS spectrum). And there's no discovery procedure, it's all done by manual configuration. See: https://winnf.memberclicks.net/assets/CBRS/WINNF-TS-0016.pdf
Re: private 5G networks?
My understanding is those systems require very little bandwidth, so barring a full “jam” of the full spectrum, it can still operate. This is not the same use case as most private 5G implementations. Shame > On Nov 30, 2021, at 6:05 PM, James Jun wrote: > > On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 05:48:28PM -0500, Shane Ronan wrote: >> Please provide details on public transit systems that are controlled via >> Wifi, I find that very interesting. >> > > He's talking about CBTC running on 2.4Ghz band for DCS. And yes he is right, > numerous metro subway systems use this. > > For heavy rail deployments, ETCS Level 2 uses GSM-R. > > > James
Re: private 5G networks?
On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 05:48:28PM -0500, Shane Ronan wrote: > Please provide details on public transit systems that are controlled via > Wifi, I find that very interesting. > He's talking about CBTC running on 2.4Ghz band for DCS. And yes he is right, numerous metro subway systems use this. For heavy rail deployments, ETCS Level 2 uses GSM-R. James
Re: private 5G networks?
Please provide details on public transit systems that are controlled via Wifi, I find that very interesting. Shane On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 5:43 PM Baldur Norddahl wrote: > > > tir. 30. nov. 2021 23.19 skrev Tom Beecher : > >> In my view there is no practical difference. The owner has full control >>> of his warehouse and it would be very illegal for any outside party to >>> install any device at all including unauthorised wifi devices. >>> >> >> Nothing illegal about someone sitting in a parking lot next door with a >> pineapple turned up to 11 that's washing out all the normal wifi spectrum. >> > > If we are talking about wifi 6E on 6 GHz sitting in a parking lot trying > to cause harmful interference within legal limits will not successfully > harm the operation within a building, especially not if the owner has a > security perimeter. Harmful interference on purpose is not legal in any > case. > > >> It would be illegal to do that with CBRS. >> > > On the other hand, saboteurs rarely care about legal and can easily jam > either system. > > And yet, this is simply not a real problem. Did you know that a larger > number of train transit systems are controlled by WiFi? Block that WiFi > signal and the trains stop city wide. But has this ever happened? > > Regards > > Baldur > >>
Re: private 5G networks?
I'm sorry Anthony, but you are just plain wrong. You do not have protection rights which means that people can infringe, but the SAS will only provide you a channel that others haven't already been granted. This is very different from protection rights which are guaranteed to higher class users. If this were the case, there would be no need for a SAS registration in the GAA space as it would be a free for all. And because it is still considered licensed spectrum, using it without being properly granted a channel is illegal, unlike unlicensed wifi. On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 5:31 PM Anthony wrote: > Opps, > > Replied direct this is a bit one sided of the conversation but I want to > make certain the community is clear on this as CBRS is a valuable spectrum. > > Unfortunately Shane this is incorrect. GAA is not significantly > different then any unlicensed spectrum as to interference avoidance. But > the SAS will typically have tools that will give you some info on how to > avoid channels already in use. This is truly useful. > > As a CBRS GAA user, i can understand your confusion, When a SAS (Spectrum > Access System) states a channel is "free" that just means it is not > currently in use by a higher priority user such as an incumbent or PAL > user. Any GAA can request a channel in use in the area by another GAA. > You have no interference protection rights as a GAA / 3rd tier user. Again > the SAS can and should assist you with finding a clean channel and potently > working as a mediator between GAA users but there is no guarantee or > protections. > > This might be helpful. @10:10 this video from google SAS's tech team > talks about this very thing. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJ5pUE68ndE > > On 11/30/2021 2:53 PM, Shane Ronan wrote: > > What makes it different is once you've been allocated spectrum, which for > in-building use is almost guaranteed, no one else can use that spectrum, so > it's guaranteed. Unlike Wifi, where any device can transmit in those > frequencies. > > Shane > > On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 3:45 PM Michael Thomas wrote: > >> >> On 11/30/21 12:43 PM, Shane Ronan wrote: >> >> What do you mean 3rd Tier? >> >> General Authorized Access? Taken from some random site looking it up. >> >> Mike >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 2:47 PM Michael Thomas wrote: >> >>> >>> On 11/30/21 11:38 AM, Shane Ronan wrote: >>> >>> The spectrum is CBRS and there are MANY benefits to 5G over Wifi, >>> including but not limited to guaranteed spectrum. >>> >>> For the 3rd tier I assume that works pretty much like wifi spectrum, >>> right? It seems to be at about 3.5Ghz so that would be pretty short >>> distance. Other than handoff what other advantages does it have over wifi >>> (can wifi do seamless l2 handoff these days?) >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 2:29 PM Michael Thomas wrote: >>> https://aws.amazon.com/about-aws/whats-new/2021/11/preview-aws-private-5g/ Why would somebody want this over wifi? And what spectrum are they using? They can't just camp on allocated spectrum, right? Mike
Re: private 5G networks?
tir. 30. nov. 2021 23.19 skrev Tom Beecher : > In my view there is no practical difference. The owner has full control of >> his warehouse and it would be very illegal for any outside party to install >> any device at all including unauthorised wifi devices. >> > > Nothing illegal about someone sitting in a parking lot next door with a > pineapple turned up to 11 that's washing out all the normal wifi spectrum. > If we are talking about wifi 6E on 6 GHz sitting in a parking lot trying to cause harmful interference within legal limits will not successfully harm the operation within a building, especially not if the owner has a security perimeter. Harmful interference on purpose is not legal in any case. > It would be illegal to do that with CBRS. > On the other hand, saboteurs rarely care about legal and can easily jam either system. And yet, this is simply not a real problem. Did you know that a larger number of train transit systems are controlled by WiFi? Block that WiFi signal and the trains stop city wide. But has this ever happened? Regards Baldur >
Re: private 5G networks?
Opps, Replied direct this is a bit one sided of the conversation but I want to make certain the community is clear on this as CBRS is a valuable spectrum. Unfortunately Shane this is incorrect. GAA is not significantly different then any unlicensed spectrum as to interference avoidance. But the SAS will typically have tools that will give you some info on how to avoid channels already in use. This is truly useful. As a CBRS GAA user, i can understand your confusion, When a SAS (Spectrum Access System) states a channel is "free" that just means it is not currently in use by a higher priority user such as an incumbent or PAL user. Any GAA can request a channel in use in the area by another GAA. You have no interference protection rights as a GAA / 3rd tier user. Again the SAS can and should assist you with finding a clean channel and potently working as a mediator between GAA users but there is no guarantee or protections. This might be helpful. @10:10 this video from google SAS's tech team talks about this very thing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJ5pUE68ndE On 11/30/2021 2:53 PM, Shane Ronan wrote: What makes it different is once you've been allocated spectrum, which for in-building use is almost guaranteed, no one else can use that spectrum, so it's guaranteed. Unlike Wifi, where any device can transmit in those frequencies. Shane On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 3:45 PM Michael Thomas wrote: On 11/30/21 12:43 PM, Shane Ronan wrote: What do you mean 3rd Tier? General Authorized Access? Taken from some random site looking it up. Mike On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 2:47 PM Michael Thomas wrote: On 11/30/21 11:38 AM, Shane Ronan wrote: The spectrum is CBRS and there are MANY benefits to 5G over Wifi, including but not limited to guaranteed spectrum. For the 3rd tier I assume that works pretty much like wifi spectrum, right? It seems to be at about 3.5Ghz so that would be pretty short distance. Other than handoff what other advantages does it have over wifi (can wifi do seamless l2 handoff these days?) Mike On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 2:29 PM Michael Thomas wrote: https://aws.amazon.com/about-aws/whats-new/2021/11/preview-aws-private-5g/ Why would somebody want this over wifi? And what spectrum are they using? They can't just camp on allocated spectrum, right? Mike
Re: private 5G networks?
> > In my view there is no practical difference. The owner has full control of > his warehouse and it would be very illegal for any outside party to install > any device at all including unauthorised wifi devices. > Nothing illegal about someone sitting in a parking lot next door with a pineapple turned up to 11 that's washing out all the normal wifi spectrum. It would be illegal to do that with CBRS. On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 4:57 PM Baldur Norddahl wrote: > > > tir. 30. nov. 2021 22.09 skrev Shane Ronan : > >> Happy, no, but it wouldn't be illegal. And if they are building their >> warehouse automation based on wifi, it would surely be a problem if someone >> was competing for bandwidth. >> > > In my view there is no practical difference. The owner has full control of > his warehouse and it would be very illegal for any outside party to install > any device at all including unauthorised wifi devices. > > For comparison, consider that many city train systems are operating > signaling using wifi equipment. > > Regards > > Baldur > >
Re: private 5G networks?
tir. 30. nov. 2021 22.09 skrev Shane Ronan : > Happy, no, but it wouldn't be illegal. And if they are building their > warehouse automation based on wifi, it would surely be a problem if someone > was competing for bandwidth. > In my view there is no practical difference. The owner has full control of his warehouse and it would be very illegal for any outside party to install any device at all including unauthorised wifi devices. For comparison, consider that many city train systems are operating signaling using wifi equipment. Regards Baldur
Re: private 5G networks?
Happy, no, but it wouldn't be illegal. And if they are building their warehouse automation based on wifi, it would surely be a problem if someone was competing for bandwidth. The policy functions and timing interval of a cellular network are also far superior to wifi. On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 4:00 PM Michael Thomas wrote: > > On 11/30/21 12:53 PM, Shane Ronan wrote: > > What makes it different is once you've been allocated spectrum, which for > in-building use is almost guaranteed, no one else can use that spectrum, so > it's guaranteed. Unlike Wifi, where any device can transmit in those > frequencies. > > If it's in premise would that really matter much? I mean if I tried to set > up an AP in an Amazon warehouse I assume they wouldn't be too happy about > that. > > Mike > > > > Shane > > On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 3:45 PM Michael Thomas wrote: > >> >> On 11/30/21 12:43 PM, Shane Ronan wrote: >> >> What do you mean 3rd Tier? >> >> General Authorized Access? Taken from some random site looking it up. >> >> Mike >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 2:47 PM Michael Thomas wrote: >> >>> >>> On 11/30/21 11:38 AM, Shane Ronan wrote: >>> >>> The spectrum is CBRS and there are MANY benefits to 5G over Wifi, >>> including but not limited to guaranteed spectrum. >>> >>> For the 3rd tier I assume that works pretty much like wifi spectrum, >>> right? It seems to be at about 3.5Ghz so that would be pretty short >>> distance. Other than handoff what other advantages does it have over wifi >>> (can wifi do seamless l2 handoff these days?) >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 2:29 PM Michael Thomas wrote: >>> https://aws.amazon.com/about-aws/whats-new/2021/11/preview-aws-private-5g/ Why would somebody want this over wifi? And what spectrum are they using? They can't just camp on allocated spectrum, right? Mike
Re: private 5G networks?
On 11/30/21 12:53 PM, Shane Ronan wrote: What makes it different is once you've been allocated spectrum, which for in-building use is almost guaranteed, no one else can use that spectrum, so it's guaranteed. Unlike Wifi, where any device can transmit in those frequencies. If it's in premise would that really matter much? I mean if I tried to set up an AP in an Amazon warehouse I assume they wouldn't be too happy about that. Mike Shane On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 3:45 PM Michael Thomas wrote: On 11/30/21 12:43 PM, Shane Ronan wrote: What do you mean 3rd Tier? General Authorized Access? Taken from some random site looking it up. Mike On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 2:47 PM Michael Thomas wrote: On 11/30/21 11:38 AM, Shane Ronan wrote: The spectrum is CBRS and there are MANY benefits to 5G over Wifi, including but not limited to guaranteed spectrum. For the 3rd tier I assume that works pretty much like wifi spectrum, right? It seems to be at about 3.5Ghz so that would be pretty short distance. Other than handoff what other advantages does it have over wifi (can wifi do seamless l2 handoff these days?) Mike On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 2:29 PM Michael Thomas wrote: https://aws.amazon.com/about-aws/whats-new/2021/11/preview-aws-private-5g/ Why would somebody want this over wifi? And what spectrum are they using? They can't just camp on allocated spectrum, right? Mike
Re: private 5G networks?
What makes it different is once you've been allocated spectrum, which for in-building use is almost guaranteed, no one else can use that spectrum, so it's guaranteed. Unlike Wifi, where any device can transmit in those frequencies. Shane On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 3:45 PM Michael Thomas wrote: > > On 11/30/21 12:43 PM, Shane Ronan wrote: > > What do you mean 3rd Tier? > > General Authorized Access? Taken from some random site looking it up. > > Mike > > > On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 2:47 PM Michael Thomas wrote: > >> >> On 11/30/21 11:38 AM, Shane Ronan wrote: >> >> The spectrum is CBRS and there are MANY benefits to 5G over Wifi, >> including but not limited to guaranteed spectrum. >> >> For the 3rd tier I assume that works pretty much like wifi spectrum, >> right? It seems to be at about 3.5Ghz so that would be pretty short >> distance. Other than handoff what other advantages does it have over wifi >> (can wifi do seamless l2 handoff these days?) >> >> Mike >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 2:29 PM Michael Thomas wrote: >> >>> >>> https://aws.amazon.com/about-aws/whats-new/2021/11/preview-aws-private-5g/ >>> >>> Why would somebody want this over wifi? And what spectrum are they >>> using? They can't just camp on allocated spectrum, right? >>> >>> Mike >>> >>>
Re: private 5G networks?
My assumption was that he meant GAA. On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 3:48 PM Shane Ronan wrote: > What do you mean 3rd Tier? > > On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 2:47 PM Michael Thomas wrote: > >> >> On 11/30/21 11:38 AM, Shane Ronan wrote: >> >> The spectrum is CBRS and there are MANY benefits to 5G over Wifi, >> including but not limited to guaranteed spectrum. >> >> For the 3rd tier I assume that works pretty much like wifi spectrum, >> right? It seems to be at about 3.5Ghz so that would be pretty short >> distance. Other than handoff what other advantages does it have over wifi >> (can wifi do seamless l2 handoff these days?) >> >> Mike >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 2:29 PM Michael Thomas wrote: >> >>> >>> https://aws.amazon.com/about-aws/whats-new/2021/11/preview-aws-private-5g/ >>> >>> Why would somebody want this over wifi? And what spectrum are they >>> using? They can't just camp on allocated spectrum, right? >>> >>> Mike >>> >>>
Re: private 5G networks?
On 11/30/21 12:43 PM, Shane Ronan wrote: What do you mean 3rd Tier? General Authorized Access? Taken from some random site looking it up. Mike On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 2:47 PM Michael Thomas wrote: On 11/30/21 11:38 AM, Shane Ronan wrote: The spectrum is CBRS and there are MANY benefits to 5G over Wifi, including but not limited to guaranteed spectrum. For the 3rd tier I assume that works pretty much like wifi spectrum, right? It seems to be at about 3.5Ghz so that would be pretty short distance. Other than handoff what other advantages does it have over wifi (can wifi do seamless l2 handoff these days?) Mike On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 2:29 PM Michael Thomas wrote: https://aws.amazon.com/about-aws/whats-new/2021/11/preview-aws-private-5g/ Why would somebody want this over wifi? And what spectrum are they using? They can't just camp on allocated spectrum, right? Mike
Re: private 5G networks?
What do you mean 3rd Tier? On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 2:47 PM Michael Thomas wrote: > > On 11/30/21 11:38 AM, Shane Ronan wrote: > > The spectrum is CBRS and there are MANY benefits to 5G over Wifi, > including but not limited to guaranteed spectrum. > > For the 3rd tier I assume that works pretty much like wifi spectrum, > right? It seems to be at about 3.5Ghz so that would be pretty short > distance. Other than handoff what other advantages does it have over wifi > (can wifi do seamless l2 handoff these days?) > > Mike > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 2:29 PM Michael Thomas wrote: > >> https://aws.amazon.com/about-aws/whats-new/2021/11/preview-aws-private-5g/ >> >> Why would somebody want this over wifi? And what spectrum are they >> using? They can't just camp on allocated spectrum, right? >> >> Mike >> >>
Re: private 5G networks?
Except there is spectrum available which is not subject to PAL, and for an inbuilding system with low power, there are specific exemptions that make it almost guaranteed when requested properly from the SAS. Shane On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 3:06 PM Josh Luthman wrote: > There is no guaranteed spectrum in CBRS without a PAL. That auction has > come and gone, but the license holders may rent out channels in time (this > is expected to happen). > > Josh Luthman > 24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340 > Direct: 937-552-2343 > 1100 Wayne St > Suite 1337 > Troy, OH 45373 > > > On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 2:38 PM Shane Ronan > wrote: > >> The spectrum is CBRS and there are MANY benefits to 5G over Wifi, >> including but not limited to guaranteed spectrum. >> >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 2:29 PM Michael Thomas wrote: >> >>> >>> https://aws.amazon.com/about-aws/whats-new/2021/11/preview-aws-private-5g/ >>> >>> Why would somebody want this over wifi? And what spectrum are they >>> using? They can't just camp on allocated spectrum, right? >>> >>> Mike >>> >>>
Re: private 5G networks?
Wifi handoff is 802.11r. Josh Luthman 24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 2:47 PM Michael Thomas wrote: > > On 11/30/21 11:38 AM, Shane Ronan wrote: > > The spectrum is CBRS and there are MANY benefits to 5G over Wifi, > including but not limited to guaranteed spectrum. > > For the 3rd tier I assume that works pretty much like wifi spectrum, > right? It seems to be at about 3.5Ghz so that would be pretty short > distance. Other than handoff what other advantages does it have over wifi > (can wifi do seamless l2 handoff these days?) > > Mike > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 2:29 PM Michael Thomas wrote: > >> https://aws.amazon.com/about-aws/whats-new/2021/11/preview-aws-private-5g/ >> >> Why would somebody want this over wifi? And what spectrum are they >> using? They can't just camp on allocated spectrum, right? >> >> Mike >> >>
Re: private 5G networks?
There is no guaranteed spectrum in CBRS without a PAL. That auction has come and gone, but the license holders may rent out channels in time (this is expected to happen). Josh Luthman 24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 2:38 PM Shane Ronan wrote: > The spectrum is CBRS and there are MANY benefits to 5G over Wifi, > including but not limited to guaranteed spectrum. > > > > On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 2:29 PM Michael Thomas wrote: > >> https://aws.amazon.com/about-aws/whats-new/2021/11/preview-aws-private-5g/ >> >> Why would somebody want this over wifi? And what spectrum are they >> using? They can't just camp on allocated spectrum, right? >> >> Mike >> >>
Re: private 5G networks?
On 11/30/21 11:38 AM, Shane Ronan wrote: The spectrum is CBRS and there are MANY benefits to 5G over Wifi, including but not limited to guaranteed spectrum. For the 3rd tier I assume that works pretty much like wifi spectrum, right? It seems to be at about 3.5Ghz so that would be pretty short distance. Other than handoff what other advantages does it have over wifi (can wifi do seamless l2 handoff these days?) Mike On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 2:29 PM Michael Thomas wrote: https://aws.amazon.com/about-aws/whats-new/2021/11/preview-aws-private-5g/ Why would somebody want this over wifi? And what spectrum are they using? They can't just camp on allocated spectrum, right? Mike
Re: private 5G networks?
The spectrum is CBRS and there are MANY benefits to 5G over Wifi, including but not limited to guaranteed spectrum. On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 2:29 PM Michael Thomas wrote: > https://aws.amazon.com/about-aws/whats-new/2021/11/preview-aws-private-5g/ > > Why would somebody want this over wifi? And what spectrum are they > using? They can't just camp on allocated spectrum, right? > > Mike > >
private 5G networks?
https://aws.amazon.com/about-aws/whats-new/2021/11/preview-aws-private-5g/ Why would somebody want this over wifi? And what spectrum are they using? They can't just camp on allocated spectrum, right? Mike
Re: Theorical question about cyclic dependency in IRR filtering
On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 3:20 AM Ben Maddison wrote: > Hi Chris, > > On 11/29, Christopher Morrow wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 29, 2021 at 8:14 AM Job Snijders via NANOG > > wrote: > > > > > Hi Anurag, > > > > > > Circular dependencies definitely are a thing to keep in mind when > > > designing IRR and RPKI pipelines! > > > > > > In the case of IRR: It is quite rare to query the RIR IRR services > > > directly. Instead, the common practise is that utilities such as bgpq3, > > > peval, and bgpq4 query “IRRd” (https://IRRd.net) instances at for > example > > > whois.radb.net and rr.ntt.net. You can verify this with tcpdump. These > > > IRRd instances serve as intermediate caches, and will continue to > serve old > > > cached data in case the origin is down. This phenomenon in the global > IRR > > > deployment avoids a lot of potential for circular dependencies. > > > > > > Also, some organisations use threshold checks before deploying new > > > IRR-based filters to reduce risk of “misfiring”. > > > > > > > > beyond just 'did the filter deployed change by +/- X%' > > you probably don't want to deploy content if you can't actually talk to > the > > source... which was anurag's proposed problem. > > > The point that Job was (I think?) trying to make was that by querying a > mirror for IRR data at filter generation time, as opposed to the source > DB directly, the issue that Anurag envisioned can be avoided. > > I would recommend that anyone (esp. transit operators) using IRR data > for filter generation run a local mirror whose reachability is not > subject to IRR-based filters. > > yup, sure; "remove external dependencies, move them internal" :) you can STILL end up with zero prefixes even in this case, of course. > Of course, disruption of the NRTM connection between the mirror and the > source DB can still result in local data becoming stale/incomplete. > > yup! > You can imagine a situation where an NRTM update to an object covering > the source DB address space is missed during a connectivity outage, and > that missed change causes the outage to become persistent. > However, I think that is fairly contrived. I have certainly never seen > it in practise. > > sure, there's a black-swan comment in here somewhere :) The overall comment set here is really: "Plan for errors and graceful resumption of service in their existence" (and planning is hard) > Cheers, > > Ben >
Re: Theorical question about cyclic dependency in IRR filtering
Hi Chris, On 11/29, Christopher Morrow wrote: > On Mon, Nov 29, 2021 at 8:14 AM Job Snijders via NANOG > wrote: > > > Hi Anurag, > > > > Circular dependencies definitely are a thing to keep in mind when > > designing IRR and RPKI pipelines! > > > > In the case of IRR: It is quite rare to query the RIR IRR services > > directly. Instead, the common practise is that utilities such as bgpq3, > > peval, and bgpq4 query “IRRd” (https://IRRd.net) instances at for example > > whois.radb.net and rr.ntt.net. You can verify this with tcpdump. These > > IRRd instances serve as intermediate caches, and will continue to serve old > > cached data in case the origin is down. This phenomenon in the global IRR > > deployment avoids a lot of potential for circular dependencies. > > > > Also, some organisations use threshold checks before deploying new > > IRR-based filters to reduce risk of “misfiring”. > > > > > beyond just 'did the filter deployed change by +/- X%' > you probably don't want to deploy content if you can't actually talk to the > source... which was anurag's proposed problem. > The point that Job was (I think?) trying to make was that by querying a mirror for IRR data at filter generation time, as opposed to the source DB directly, the issue that Anurag envisioned can be avoided. I would recommend that anyone (esp. transit operators) using IRR data for filter generation run a local mirror whose reachability is not subject to IRR-based filters. Of course, disruption of the NRTM connection between the mirror and the source DB can still result in local data becoming stale/incomplete. You can imagine a situation where an NRTM update to an object covering the source DB address space is missed during a connectivity outage, and that missed change causes the outage to become persistent. However, I think that is fairly contrived. I have certainly never seen it in practise. Cheers, Ben signature.asc Description: PGP signature
