Re: home router battery backup

[Mark Tinka]

On 1/13/22 17:56, Aaron C. de Bruyn via NANOG wrote:



I bought one of those power monitors and tossed it on the circuit that 
goes into my house.  At *night* when everything is off, I might get 
down as far as ~800 watts.

During the day it's more like 2,000-3,500.


Almost the same here... down to about 700W between 11PM - 4:30AM, and 
mostly 1,500W - 2,000W during the day, unless the Mrs. wants to grill 
some chicken or do some baking in the oven that day.


Fair point, it's a family of 4 + 1, so...

If I get the hat-trick (water heater, central air, and well pump) 
running at the same time, I can get up to ~24,000 watts.


Ouch!

For our traditional water heater, we're using a system that can power 
the tank elements either via its own independent PV array or via the 
grid (where the grid is either the main house's PV array or the utility):


https://www.geyserworx.co.za/

I, then, added tankless, on-demand gas heaters into the mix, and piped 
that into the house:


https://gasgeysers.co.za/qr/20lt-room-sealed-fan-forced-gas-geyser/

I use a solenoid valve attached to a little IoT thingie to switch 
between the tankless gas heater and the traditional tank, depending on 
time-of-day. Tankless heater on at 8PM - 10:30AM, and traditional tank 
on at 10:31AM - 7:59PM (unless we had poor solar yield that day and it 
didn't heat up enough).


In all, we haven't had to use the utility to heat water since we went 
this route. Saved tons of cash, and guarantees a hot shower any day, any 
weather.





I definitely notice it when the power goes out.  The sound of UPS 
relays and alarms is enough to wake the dead.


For my setup, even if we generally can transfer from utility grid to 
battery backup between 0ms - 20ms, I attached UPS's to all sensitive 
appliances in the house as an additional backup anyway (small ones, 1kVA 
- 2kVA, type-thing). The reason for that is if we have an outage while 
the battery inverter is forming its grid from the utility, there are 
instances where the power outage is not a clean one (like a brownout, or 
slow low voltage event), and this would trip the battery as the inverter 
tries to quickly re-form the grid from the battery (230V/50Hz).


In such cases, the battery would protect itself from a possible short 
circuit, and shutdown for about 50ms, but that's long enough to power 
down the inverter, and it would take 60 seconds for it to restart. 
During that time, the UPS's will keep appliances running (Internet, TV, 
computers, consoles, a/v, e.t.c.).


Of course, if a utility outage occurred when the inverter was forming 
its grid from the battery, then we won't notice anything.


I've added voltage sensors to the grid supply to cut the power before 
the voltage gets too low, too quickly (cut at 219V), but that only 
improved the situation slightly. There are other inverters that have 
their own internal voltage sensors that could handle this far better, 
but I preferred the model I went with for its data management capabilities.


Mark.

Re: BGP Route Monitoring

[Mark Tinka]

On 1/13/22 19:50, Don Thomas Jacob wrote:


Disclosure - I work for Blue Planet.

Blue Planet, a division of Ciena, has Route Optimization and Analysis, 
a product that provides visibility into IP/MPLS networks and IGP/BGP 
routing. Its routing alerts include peering state change, prefix state 
change, path change, alerts for when number of non-baseline BGP peers 
are above or below a threshold, etc. It may have something to cover 
your use case.


https://www.blueplanet.com/products/route-optimization.html


Used and loved the product when it was called Packet Design, before 
Ciena picked it up. The IGP insights are amazing!


Mark.

Re: home router battery backup

[Mark Tinka]

On 1/13/22 17:38, Jay wrote:

Greetings,
   I am a home user.  Much of my home has been rewired to run off of 
12-volts D.C. from a large 1200 Amp/Hour LiFePO4 battery bank that is 
recharged using Solar.  All my lighting, ceiling fans, water pump, Ham 
radio gear, weather alert radio, USB charging stations, alarm system, 
security cameras and DVR, my wife's CPAP machine, 40-inch flat screen 
TV, ROKU streaming device, etc. all now run off 12 VDC.  High 
consumption devices like stove, refrigerators, air conditioners, 
furnace, still run on AC but get *much* of their power from a 5kw 
Grid-Tied Solar array (Enphase IQ7 microinverters) which I hope to 
soon add a battery backup to. There is also a whole-house 4kw backup 
generator.  This is what is known as a "Hybrid" home :)


   ALL of my servers, workstations, routers/hubs, WiFi, are also 
converted to run on 12VDC from this battery/solar plant.  In many 
cases it is just a matter of adding a DC-DC buck/booster regulator 
that can be purchased on Amazon for ten bucks, or so.  These generally 
take 8-40 volts input and will deliver whatever voltage output that 
you desire.  Both my DSL and FTTH are powered this way.


   It was mentioned that we need to address *reducing* our power 
consumption in order to reduce our carbon footprint.  This ongoing 
project has helped me to do just that and eliminate so many "power 
suckers" and wall-warts from my home.


   We consume around 150 watts on DC and generally around 600 watts on 
AC (unless a freezer or air conditioner cycles on).  When the power 
goes out, sometimes we don't immediately notice it!  I think I am 
living inside a giant UPS, and more independance from the Grid is 
refreshing.


This is amazing!

I couldn't possibly find the energy to convert any (never mind all) of 
my standard appliances to DC, but what you've done is very impressive, 
especially since you are talking about a house and not a boat!


Well done!

Mark.

Re: home router battery backup

[John Lightfoot]

In Vermont I have a Tesla Powerwall that Green Mountain Power paid for if I 
agreed to let them manage it.  Since then I’ve never had an outage of any kind, 
I usually figure out that there is one by seeing my neighbors’ lights go off.

I’ve also had great luck with my ISP, which is Comcast.  Even before we had the 
Powerwall, when the power would go out the (older) Comcast router would work on 
its own battery backup and my laptop would flip over to battery power, so I 
didn’t have any loss of connectivity even then.

--John

From: NANOG  on behalf of Scott T 
Anderson via NANOG 
Date: Thursday, January 13, 2022 at 8:28 AM
To: Scott T Anderson via NANOG 
Subject: RE: home router battery backup
Hi everyone,

Thanks very much for all the responses throughout the day. They are very 
helpful. Your (collective) answers triggered a couple follow-on questions:

For those individuals with backup battery power for their modem/router, do they 
maintain Internet access throughout a power outage (as long as their backup 
power solution works)? I.e., does the rest of the ISP network maintain service 
throughout a power outage?

Are the modems with backup power designed to operate for a specified period of 
time without power and if so, for how long and how was that duration identified?
If those with backup power do maintain Internet access during a power outage, 
do they lose that access if the power outage extends beyond a certain time? 
I.e., does the ISP network equipment go offline at some point in time due to 
batteries being drained and not having power generation capabilities?

Again, thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience!
Scott

From: NANOG  On Behalf Of 
richey.goldb...@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 12:38 PM
To: Scott T Anderson via NANOG 
Subject: Re: home router battery backup

At my last employer we installed lots of Adtrans at Car Dealerships, Hotels, 
and other SMBs.It was common for them to have a small UPS but 9 times out 
of 10 the UPS 2-3 times older than the life cycle of the battery and no one 
ever knew that you could change the battery in them.So they usually just 
had a heavy power strip that was prone to failing after a power loss.

We did have the option to install a battery back up on the Adtran but it would 
have been useless because most of them didn’t have any kind of backup power for 
their PBXs.


I’m pretty sure that my own power protection on my network gear and theater 
gear far exceeded the average end user’s remote offices.

-richey

From: NANOG 
mailto:nanog-bounces+richey.goldberg=gmail@nanog.org>>
 on behalf of Andy Ringsmuth mailto:a...@andyring.com>>
Date: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 at 1:16 PM
To: Scott T Anderson mailto:standers...@wisc.edu>>, Scott 
T Anderson via NANOG mailto:nanog@nanog.org>>
Subject: Re: home router battery backup

> On Jan 12, 2022, at 11:35 AM, Scott T Anderson via NANOG 
> mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> wrote:
>
> Hi NANOG mailing list,
>
> I am a graduate student, currently conducting research on how power outages 
> affect home Internet users. I know that the FCC has a regulation since 2015 
> (47 CFR Section 9.20) requiring ISPs to provide an option to voice customers 
> to purchase a battery backup for emergency voice services during power 
> outages. As this is only an option and only applies to customers who 
> subscribe to voice services, I was wondering if anyone had any insights on 
> the prevalence of battery backup for home modem/routers? I.e., what 
> percentage of home users actually install a battery backup in their home 
> modem/router or use an external UPS?
>
> Thanks.
> Scott

Given that most people barely even know what their home router is, I suspect 
the percentage would be somewhere south of 1 percent. Outside of my home, I 
honestly cannot recall EVER seeing someone’s home using a battery backup for 
their internet infrastructure.

I personally do, but of course I (and probably everyone on this list) am by no 
means representative of the population at large in this particular area.


Andy Ringsmuth
5609 Harding Drive
Lincoln, NE 68521-5831
(402) 304-0083
a...@andyring.com

Re: home router battery backup

[Michael Thomas]

On 1/12/22 3:11 PM, Scott T Anderson via NANOG wrote:


Hi everyone,

Thanks very much for all the responses throughout the day. They are 
very helpful. Your (collective) answers triggered a couple follow-on 
questions:


For those individuals with backup battery power for their 
modem/router, do they maintain Internet access throughout a power 
outage (as long as their backup power solution works)? I.e., does the 
rest of the ISP network maintain service throughout a power outage?


For my ISP, they maintain backup power for both DSL and POTS. I suspect 
that for a lot of DSL that would hold true because it's relatively easy 
for them to power since they already have the battery backup 
requirements for POTS. The setup they have here is a DSLAM and SIP->POTS 
termination in a pedestal with fiber backhaul. They use the old copper 
that used to go back to the CO to power the pedestal.


Mike

Re: home router battery backup

[Michael Thomas]

On 1/12/22 9:21 PM, Mark Tinka wrote:



On 1/12/22 21:41, Michael Thomas wrote:

We just installed a battery too, but it will probably only last ~1 
day and much less than that in winter. We're in the process of 
looking at a generator that interfaces directly with the inverter so 
that it handles the grid, the battery, the solar and the generator 
along with the transfer switch.


Or maybe the other way around - perhaps you should be looking for an 
inverter that handles all power sources... battery, utility and 
generator, so you don't have to worry about managing the transfer.


That's what I have. Or at least that's what SolarEdge is promising for 
the generator part of the equation with a software upgrade.


Mike

Linux-running SFPs [Was: Re: ONTs]

[Julien Goodwin]

On 14/1/22 2:45 am, Dave Taht wrote:

Thx. I started a thread over on the cerowrt-devel mailing list on this,
it was cool to find several linux based SFPs worth playing with, Finding
a set of "common" ONTs worth configuring in a way more suited for
an fq_codel'd router (and especially not using policing) is on my mind.



On that, someone finally wrote up a little thing:
https://blog.benjojo.co.uk/post/smart-sfp-linux-inside

I'm still quite tempted to order a few and play myself.

Re: home router battery backup

[Dave Taht]

On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 11:00 AM Chris Adams  wrote:
>
> Once upon a time, Dave Taht  said:
> > I tend also to hang a good gps off a second usb port, if available.
> > There's a topic for geeks - does anyone else really know (or care)
> > what time it really is?
>
> 25 (or 6) to 4?
>
> Running GPS over USB for timing makes me twitch though - too much
> jitter! :)  Use a proper serial or GPIO port, with that you can get down
> to sub-microsecond accuracy.

No, no, I actually went through the time/hassle and expense to create
a usb gps with a PPS
output, and then wanted to put a supercap on it because batteries
didn't last long enough.

https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/thumbgps-devel/2012-May/000497.html

They were sold wholesale for a while. I don't know if any modern usb
gps has a pps
output... I still have enough of these left to last a lifetime.


> --
> Chris Adams 



-- 
I tried to build a better future, a few times:
https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org

Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC

Re: BGP Route Monitoring

[Don Thomas Jacob]

Disclosure - I work for Blue Planet.

Blue Planet, a division of Ciena, has Route Optimization and Analysis, a
product that provides visibility into IP/MPLS networks and IGP/BGP routing.
Its routing alerts include peering state change, prefix state change, path
change, alerts for when number of non-baseline BGP peers are above or below
a threshold, etc. It may have something to cover your use case.

https://www.blueplanet.com/products/route-optimization.html

Thanks,
Don

-
Don Thomas Jacob
LinkedIn  | Twitter




On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 7:19 PM Sandoiu Mihai  wrote:

> Hi
>
>
>
> I am looking for a route monitoring product that does the following:
>
> -checks if a specific bgp route from a specific neighbor is present the
> BGP table (in some vrf, not necessarily internet routed vrf) of an ASR9K
> running IOS XR
>
> -sends a syslog message or an alarm if the route goes missing
>
>
>
> The use case is the following: we are receiving same routes over 2 or more
> bgp peerings, due to best route we cannot really see at the moment if one
> of the routes ceased to be received over a certain peering.
>
>
>
> Alternative approach: a product that measures the number of bgp received
> prefixes from a certain peer.
>
>
>
> Do you know of such product that is readily available and does not require
> ssh sessions to the routers and parsing the outputs?
>
> I am trying to find a solution that does not require much scripting or
> customization.
>
>
>
> Many thanks.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Mihai
>
>
>

Re: home router battery backup

[Tony Wicks]

Yep, a pair of long nose pliers and that beeper pops right off the board, real easy.

Re: home router battery backup

[Chris Adams]

Once upon a time, Dave Taht  said:
> I tend also to hang a good gps off a second usb port, if available.
> There's a topic for geeks - does anyone else really know (or care)
> what time it really is?

25 (or 6) to 4?

Running GPS over USB for timing makes me twitch though - too much
jitter! :)  Use a proper serial or GPIO port, with that you can get down
to sub-microsecond accuracy.
-- 
Chris Adams 

Re: home router battery backup

[Chris Adams]

Once upon a time, Dave Taht  said:
> Also, I *hate* the beeps. It's dark out, I know the powers off, darn
> it, no need to beep. That's why I buy 'smart' upses because you can
> tell them not beep.

You can tell ANY UPS to not beep... sometimes it just requires more
force (and wire cutters).
-- 
Chris Adams 

Re: home router battery backup

[Stephen Stuart]

> I tend also to hang a good gps off a second usb port, if available.
> There's a topic for geeks - does anyone else really know (or care)
> what time it really is?

if so i can't imagine why (no, no)
we've all got time enough to cry

(oddly apropos for the topic of power outages)

RE: home router battery backup

[Ryland Kremeier]

My current solution is having the UPS plugged into my bare metal fileserver. 
But I’m wanting to get rid of it at some point so any other solution will be 
superior to none. I appreciate the added info!

That being said my current router solution is a Ubiquity ER4. I don’t currently 
run openWRT on anything because my older server hardware wasn’t able to keep up 
with full 1gb up and down speeds with openwrt or any other flavor of self 
hosted routing. Not sure I could still apply your solution to an ER4.

Thank you,
-- Ryland

From: Dave Taht
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 12:07 PM
To: Ryland Kremeier
Cc: Stephen Stuart; Jared 
Mauch; nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: home router battery backup

On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 10:02 AM Ryland Kremeier
 wrote:
>
> Thanks for this! Definitely going to look into doing this!

I typically run the ups monitor off a suitable openwrt box (most have
at least one usb port) no need for a separate pi.

I tend also to hang a good gps off a second usb port, if available.
There's a topic for geeks - does anyone else really know (or care)
what time it really is?

>
>
> Thank you,
>
> -- Ryland
>
>
>
> From: Stephen Stuart
> Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 11:58 AM
> To: Jared Mauch
> Cc: nanog@nanog.org
> Subject: Re: home router battery backup
>
>
>
> [...]
>
> note that if your ups has a usb port, you can attach a raspberry pi
> and run upsmon to be told (among other things) when the battery
> requires replacement rather than rely on hearing the beeps. good for
> the out-of-the-way closets with network gear.
>
>



--
I tried to build a better future, a few times:
https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org

Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC

"Hackathon" Solves Real-World Tech Issue + Committee Nominations + More

[Nanog News]

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Re: home router battery backup

[Dave Taht]

On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 10:02 AM Ryland Kremeier
 wrote:
>
> Thanks for this! Definitely going to look into doing this!

I typically run the ups monitor off a suitable openwrt box (most have
at least one usb port) no need for a separate pi.

I tend also to hang a good gps off a second usb port, if available.
There's a topic for geeks - does anyone else really know (or care)
what time it really is?

>
>
> Thank you,
>
> -- Ryland
>
>
>
> From: Stephen Stuart
> Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 11:58 AM
> To: Jared Mauch
> Cc: nanog@nanog.org
> Subject: Re: home router battery backup
>
>
>
> [...]
>
> note that if your ups has a usb port, you can attach a raspberry pi
> and run upsmon to be told (among other things) when the battery
> requires replacement rather than rely on hearing the beeps. good for
> the out-of-the-way closets with network gear.
>
>



-- 
I tried to build a better future, a few times:
https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org

Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC

Re: home router battery backup

[Dave Taht]

On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 9:56 AM Stephen Stuart  wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> note that if your ups has a usb port, you can attach a raspberry pi
> and run upsmon to be told (among other things) when the battery
> requires replacement rather than rely on hearing the beeps. good for
> the out-of-the-way closets with network gear.

Also, I *hate* the beeps. It's dark out, I know the powers off, darn
it, no need to beep. That's why I buy 'smart' upses because you can
tell them not beep.

-- 
I tried to build a better future, a few times:
https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org

Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC

RE: home router battery backup

[Ryland Kremeier]

Thanks for this! Definitely going to look into doing this!

Thank you,
-- Ryland

From: Stephen Stuart
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 11:58 AM
To: Jared Mauch
Cc: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: home router battery backup

[...]

note that if your ups has a usb port, you can attach a raspberry pi
and run upsmon to be told (among other things) when the battery
requires replacement rather than rely on hearing the beeps. good for
the out-of-the-way closets with network gear.

Re: home router battery backup

[Stephen Stuart]

[...]

note that if your ups has a usb port, you can attach a raspberry pi
and run upsmon to be told (among other things) when the battery
requires replacement rather than rely on hearing the beeps. good for
the out-of-the-way closets with network gear.

Re: home router battery backup

[Jared Mauch]

> On Jan 13, 2022, at 12:28 PM, Chris Adams  wrote:
> 
> Once upon a time, Brandon Martin  said:
>> AT&T and Comcast don't seem to provide battery by default if you buy
>> voice service from them.
> 
> The only major power outage I've experienced at my house (I've been here
> over 20 years) was the May 2011 tornado outbreak, when TVA lost hundreds
> of distribution towers, and my local utility lost all feeds.  At the
> time, I had AT&T POTS, Comcast cable/Internet, and T-Mobile cell.

You are lucky.  In my areas we have many power outages and in my ~20 years in 
my current house, we have had several outages that went past 3 days in various 
weather (spring, summer, fall, winter)

Not only were we impacted by the NE blackout, but just in the short time I’ve 
had a generator it’s run around 0.5% of the time due to grid outage, with the 
prior year we had 7 different outages.

I also don’t believe the reporting is accurate from this source I’m doing a 
quick SWAG of, I think it’s been longer.  It’s so bad I monitor the grid 
voltage and have it in influxdb+grafana dashboard

(I recommend iotawatt if you want a neat device)

- Jared

Re: home router battery backup

[Steven Champeon]

on Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 05:35:19PM +, Scott T Anderson via NANOG wrote:
> Hi NANOG mailing list,
> 
> I am a graduate student, currently conducting research on how power
> outages affect home Internet users.

Not a netadmin, but longtime sysadmin, and have been working from home
for over a decade. We have Spectrum cable (still waiting on Google to
run fiber to this block) and a smallish home network, three Apple
Airport Extremes to help get around the c. 1870 era plaster walls in our
house, and a UPS for the modem, switch, NAS, and voice (currently
Phonebooth), as well as another for my work laptop and monitors, the
Mini we use for remote backups of our colocated servers, and a line
conditioner for the TV, TiVo and its external disk as well as the Cisco
TA. 

We've been here twenty years and have only had one multi-day power
outage, due to an ice storm, and despite the five fireplaces we hadn't
had any of them lined so it got very cold (we've since lined one and
installed a wood burning insert). Despite it all, we've never bothered
with a generator; it may be in the cards when we do a planned renovation
though, we're just north of downtown Raleigh in a historic neighborhood
so the grid is pretty stable for the most part save cars hitting poles
or transformers blowing due to wind or ice damage. Not as good as our
old apartment over by NCSU, we lived there seven years and I don't
remember ever losing power. We powered the computers down and unplugged
them once during a severe thunderstorm, just to be safe, but that was a
precaution more than a necessity.

A few years ago we learned that the lights in your house can dim
temporarily but that they should never get *brighter*, thanks to a
recently installed but faulty smart meter. They estimated that one input
was serving ~180. We lost a big box full's worth of various powerstrips
and one Netgear 8-port GE switch, but fortunately didn't lose any of the
laptops or the Dell server we had at the time. The firemen who came to
investigate laughed at us and told us in a house this old you had to
expect electrical issues; when we called Duke Energy the guy replaced
the meter and used his hands to mime typing and said "google 'neutral
burned through'" and ask for reimbursement for damaged items, so it
didn't cost us anything but it was still pretty scary.

So, yet another atypical user, but yes, UPSes and line conditioners are
standard in this house.

-- 
hesketh.com/inc. v: +1(919)834-2552 f: +1(919)834-2553 w: http://hesketh.com/
Internet security and antispam hostname intelligence: http://enemieslist.com/

Re: home router battery backup

[Chris Adams]

Once upon a time, Brandon Martin  said:
> AT&T and Comcast don't seem to provide battery by default if you buy
> voice service from them.

The only major power outage I've experienced at my house (I've been here
over 20 years) was the May 2011 tornado outbreak, when TVA lost hundreds
of distribution towers, and my local utility lost all feeds.  At the
time, I had AT&T POTS, Comcast cable/Internet, and T-Mobile cell.

I have all my stuff on UPS, so I could see for a little while that
Comcast dropped almost immediately; it looked like they had no (or dead)
batteries in their distribution system.  T-Mobile stayed up but got
congested (because lots of people switched to cells for Internet), and
AT&T POTS was up the whole time (they have batteries in all the remotes,
with natural gas generators in a lot of them, and rolled generator
trucks around to charge things up).

I left town the next morning to somewhere with electricity, and came
back several days later, before my power had been restored (it came back
that night).  IIRC Comcast was dead, AT&T was up, and T-Mobile was up
but slow.

I've got Google Fiber now, on local utility fiber, and I haven't
experienced any outage when there's a power outage, but we also haven't
had any extended outage.  Since the fiber network is run by the utility,
the huts are at substations, so it would take a substation outage to
knock out power to the hut (and I think they may still also have
generators at the huts).

-- 
Chris Adams 

home router battery backup

[james.cut...@consultant.com]

> On Jan 12, 2022, at 5:11 PM, Scott T Anderson via NANOG  > wrote:
> 
> For those individuals with backup battery power for their modem/router, do 
> they maintain Internet access throughout a power outage (as long as their 
> backup power solution works)? I.e., does the rest of the ISP network maintain 
> service throughout a power outage?

The answer is, “It depends.” 

Plymouth in Michigan recently had a substation fire that took out a large 
fraction of the city. Restoration of the substation was a lengthy process as 
mobile transformers and the like were required. My Comcast connection was only 
down for a short time until some generators were dispatched to some 
pole-mounted equipment within the city. 

Since my local power comes from a different substation, the brief Comcast 
outage was the only noticeable event. I frequently hear the UPS beep for short 
interruptions, confirming that the battery is still strong.

My original UPS was installed to ride through momentary outages and to inhibit 
spikes since spikes and arbitrary power shutdowns can cause damage to both data 
and equipment. My cable modem, router, network hub, several computers and 
monitors, and task lighting are all protected from outages for a decent 
interval followed by a spike-free shutdown. The latter is important, especially 
as compared to the transients occurring as trees fall on power lines. 

The 2003 midwest blackout was days long. I helped a friend wire his well pump 
to a portable generator so one could “flush”. I then grabbed my laptop and took 
refuge up north outside the outage area. At that time, WFH had long been part 
of my vocabulary.

Re: home router battery backup

[Dave Taht]

Has this xkcd gone by yet?

https://xkcd.com/705/

I would actually like a study of how network "glitches" and outages
affect more normal humanity. I did - and it took years to relax this
much - finally get
to the point to when the power went out, I'd take a walk, find a book,
or do something other than stress about the thing I was doing that was
interrupted
when the lights went out. I tend to think that with internet addiction
on the rise for the general public that they are becoming more like us
in this respect,
and that's not a good thing.

On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 10:03 AM Scott T Anderson via NANOG
 wrote:
>
> Hi NANOG mailing list,
>
>
>
> I am a graduate student, currently conducting research on how power outages 
> affect home Internet users. I know that the FCC has a regulation since 2015 
> (47 CFR Section 9.20) requiring ISPs to provide an option to voice customers 
> to purchase a battery backup for emergency voice services during power 
> outages. As this is only an option and only applies to customers who 
> subscribe to voice services, I was wondering if anyone had any insights on 
> the prevalence of battery backup for home modem/routers? I.e., what 
> percentage of home users actually install a battery backup in their home 
> modem/router or use an external UPS?
>
>
>
> Thanks.
>
> Scott
>
>
>
> Reference for 47 CFR Section 9.20: 
> https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/chapter-I/subchapter-A/part-9/subpart-H/section-9.20
>
>



-- 
I tried to build a better future, a few times:
https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org

Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC

Re: home router battery backup

[Aaron C. de Bruyn via NANOG]

On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 7:41 AM Jay  wrote:

> We consume around 150 watts on DC and generally around 600 watts on AC
> (unless a freezer or air conditioner cycles on).  When the power goes out,
> sometimes we don't immediately notice it!  I think I am living inside a
> giant UPS, and more independance from the Grid is refreshing.
>

*boggles*

I bought one of those power monitors and tossed it on the circuit that goes
into my house.  At *night* when everything is off, I might get down as far
as ~800 watts.
During the day it's more like 2,000-3,500.  If I get the hat-trick (water
heater, central air, and well pump) running at the same time, I can get up
to ~24,000 watts.

The down-side...it's only monitoring the branch that leads to the house.
My office is on a separate branch.

My neighbor pays around $150 every two months on their power bill.
I pay just under ~$260 *every month*.
*sigh*

I definitely notice it when the power goes out.  The sound of UPS relays
and alarms is enough to wake the dead.

-A

Re: home router battery backup

[Mark Tinka]

On 1/13/22 17:44, Andy Ringsmuth wrote:


The utility had never experienced that before either. The entire city only had 
a couple hours notice that this would be happening.

Oh well. We got through it.


Chances are they have since upgraded their experience and procedures for 
this occurrence :-).


Mark.

Re: ONTs

[Dave Taht]

On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 10:08 PM Brandon Martin
 wrote:
>
> On 1/12/22 4:15 PM, Josh Luthman wrote:
> > I would have to imagine any QOS/traffic shaping is done in the OMCI and
> > hence would probably be in the GPON spec, g.984.  I would look there.
> >
> > Just guessing it would hold true with XG/s/PON, NGPON, etc.
>
> The way at least my gear (Adtran) works is that you configure
> shaping/policing as part of the provisioned service.  That information
> is communicated to the ONTs via the OMCI.
>
> AFAIK, the ONT enforces admission control on the upstream (and
> coordinates for timeslot assignments with the OLT since upstream
> oversubscription is supported and common), and the OLT enforces
> downstream egress control.
>
> You can configure whether you want rate control to be based on hard
> policers (instantaneous drop once CIR+CBS+EIR+EBS is exceeded) or
> whether you want it to "shape" the traffic by delaying things.  The
> latter is usually more user-friendly and certainly easier to set up, but
> it can result in bufferbloat, and they don't provide very friendly knobs
> to tune the maximum queue length.  I haven't heard any real complaints
> from folks.  DSLReports gives me like a C for bufferbloat but doesn't
> really make it clear why.  The queue is, at most, a few ms in depth.

The nice thing about the Codel, Cobalt, and PIE aqms is they work beautifully
with hardware flow control so long as the interval of the pause is closely tied
to the uplink's chances to transmit. I've perpetually shown off how well
fq_codel worked with the very first (and ancient) dslmodem we tried that
had minimal buffering in nearly every preso I did... (and have ranted that
"modern" ones required shaping instead and also pointed at how to do it
hw flow control very wrong as all the ethernet over powerline devices did)

so it would be cool if you could put fq_codel or cake in front of your ONT
and see if you have pause frames negotiated on your ethernet interface.

Anyway;

What I've been observing, however, in the fiber data from dslreports,
is a disturbing growth of roughly 250ms of uplink buffering in 100Mbit
fiber services:

https://www.dslreports.com/speedtest/results/bufferbloat?up=1

(If you look at this data over time its otherwise quite pleasing to
 see cable's massive improvements at lower tiers of service)

> You can tell it to honor 802.1p CoS, IP ToS, or IP DSCP in various ways
> and map them to separate queues with separate policers/shapers and WRR
> priority.  This is semi-automated if you are doing voice/video via their
> provisioning environment.

>
> YMMV on other vendors' gear.

Thx. I started a thread over on the cerowrt-devel mailing list on this,
it was cool to find several linux based SFPs worth playing with, Finding
a set of "common" ONTs worth configuring in a way more suited for
an fq_codel'd router (and especially not using policing) is on my mind.

-- 
I tried to build a better future, a few times:
https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org

Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC

Re: home router battery backup

[Andy Ringsmuth]

> On Jan 13, 2022, at 9:22 AM, Mark Tinka  wrote:
> 
>> The power company said the rotating outages would be 30-45 minutes, which I 
>> do have UPS capacity to handle. But the rotating outage went close to 2 
>> hours, exhausting my UPS capacity and getting to the point where I was more 
>> concerned about the temperature in the building.
> 
> Having had extensive experience with load shedding growing up this side of 
> the world (sadly), the outage period announced by the power company may or 
> may not include the time required to re-energize the affected areas.
> 
> So when they say 30 - 45 minutes, you should ask them if that includes or 
> excludes the time allowance for re-energizing.

The utility had never experienced that before either. The entire city only had 
a couple hours notice that this would be happening.

Oh well. We got through it.



-Andy

RE: home router battery backup

[Jay]

Greetings,
   I am a home user.  Much of my home has been rewired to run off of 
12-volts D.C. from a large 1200 Amp/Hour LiFePO4 battery bank that is 
recharged using Solar.  All my lighting, ceiling fans, water pump, Ham 
radio gear, weather alert radio, USB charging stations, alarm system, 
security cameras and DVR, my wife's CPAP machine, 40-inch flat screen TV, 
ROKU streaming device, etc. all now run off 12 VDC.  High consumption 
devices like stove, refrigerators, air conditioners, furnace, still run on 
AC but get *much* of their power from a 5kw Grid-Tied Solar array (Enphase 
IQ7 microinverters) which I hope to soon add a battery backup to.  There 
is also a whole-house 4kw backup generator.  This is what is known as a 
"Hybrid" home :)


   ALL of my servers, workstations, routers/hubs, WiFi, are also converted 
to run on 12VDC from this battery/solar plant.  In many cases it is just a 
matter of adding a DC-DC buck/booster regulator that can be purchased on 
Amazon for ten bucks, or so.  These generally take 8-40 volts input and 
will deliver whatever voltage output that you desire.  Both my DSL and 
FTTH are powered this way.


   It was mentioned that we need to address *reducing* our power 
consumption in order to reduce our carbon footprint.  This ongoing project 
has helped me to do just that and eliminate so many "power suckers" and 
wall-warts from my home.


   We consume around 150 watts on DC and generally around 600 watts on AC 
(unless a freezer or air conditioner cycles on).  When the power goes out, 
sometimes we don't immediately notice it!  I think I am living inside a 
giant UPS, and more independance from the Grid is refreshing.


   Enjoy!
  --- Jay Nugent  WB8TKL
  Ypsilanti, Michigan
  j...@nuge.com




From: Scott T Anderson via NANOG
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 7:28 AM
To: Scott T Anderson via NANOG
Subject: RE: home router battery backup

Hi everyone,

Thanks very much for all the responses throughout the day. They are very 
helpful. Your
(collective) answers triggered a couple follow-on questions:

For those individuals with backup battery power for their modem/router, do they 
maintain
Internet access throughout a power outage (as long as their backup power 
solution works)?
I.e., does the rest of the ISP network maintain service throughout a power 
outage?

Are the modems with backup power designed to operate for a specified period of 
time without
power and if so, for how long and how was that duration identified?

If those with backup power do maintain Internet access during a power outage, 
do they lose
that access if the power outage extends beyond a certain time? I.e., does the 
ISP network
equipment go offline at some point in time due to batteries being drained and 
not having
power generation capabilities?

Again, thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience!

Scott

Re: home router battery backup

[Mark Tinka]

On 1/13/22 17:15, Andy Ringsmuth wrote:

The power company said the rotating outages would be 30-45 minutes, 
which I do have UPS capacity to handle. But the rotating outage went 
close to 2 hours, exhausting my UPS capacity and getting to the point 
where I was more concerned about the temperature in the building.


Having had extensive experience with load shedding growing up this side 
of the world (sadly), the outage period announced by the power company 
may or may not include the time required to re-energize the affected areas.


So when they say 30 - 45 minutes, you should ask them if that includes 
or excludes the time allowance for re-energizing.


In South Africa, load shedding can be announced as 2hrs or 4hrs. 
However, the schedule will be printed as 2.5hrs or 4.5hrs, with those 
extra 30 minutes added to allow for engineers to re-energize neighborhoods.


Also, transformers and distribution switching gear is not designed to be 
operated in an on/off fashion. So things can go wrong when neighborhoods 
are re-energized, e.g., trips from downstream customer surge overloads, 
downstream transformers that trip and cascade, e.t.c.


Mark.

Re: home router battery backup

[Andy Ringsmuth]

> On Jan 12, 2022, at 5:11 PM, Scott T Anderson via NANOG  
> wrote:
> 
> For those individuals with backup battery power for their modem/router, do 
> they maintain Internet access throughout a power outage (as long as their 
> backup power solution works)? I.e., does the rest of the ISP network maintain 
> service throughout a power outage?

I honestly don’t know.

My entire subdivision is fairly new (early 2000s) and all utilities are 
underground. Therefore, power outages are extremely rare. We’ve lived in this 
house for 9 years and I think there’s been maybe one short outage due to a 
blown transformer somewhere, several years ago.

Last winter though during the EXTREME cold snap where we hit -31 in Lincoln, 
Nebraska, the power company did have to resort to deliberately shutting off 
entire neighborhoods for short periods, 30-45 minutes, to maintain the overall 
grid. My home was not in one of the affected areas, but we were close.

My office was though, and that was a shitstorm. We are a small company, less 
than 20 people, most of whom work from home. The power company said the 
rotating outages would be 30-45 minutes, which I do have UPS capacity to 
handle. But the rotating outage went close to 2 hours, exhausting my UPS 
capacity and getting to the point where I was more concerned about the 
temperature in the building. However, during that time I do know my ISP had no 
trouble. Allo Communications, a FTTH outfit.



Andy Ringsmuth
5609 Harding Drive
Lincoln, NE 68521-5831
(402) 304-0083
a...@andyring.com

Re: home router battery backup

[Mark Tinka]

On 1/13/22 01:11, Scott T Anderson via NANOG wrote:

For those individuals with backup battery power for their 
modem/router, do they maintain Internet access throughout a power 
outage (as long as their backup power solution works)? I.e., does the 
rest of the ISP network maintain service throughout a power outage?




In 2016, there was a massive storm in my neighborhood that flooded my 
fibre provider's GPON PoP. That was an outage.


In 2018, there was a neighborhood-wide power outage that caught the 
provider off-guard re: their own backup.


In recent years, the provider has been able to maintain uptime through 
extended and/or multiple daily power outages.


But in the end, your provider will be the weakest link, if you are able 
to keep your devices powered throughout a lengthy or multi-day outage.


The mobile operators don't seem to be able to last more than 8hrs in my 
neck of the woods, and worse if the the day has multiple outages, as the 
battery never gets a chance to fully recharge.



Are the modems with backup power designed to operate for a specified 
period of time without power and if so, for how long and how was that 
duration identified?




All comes down to how large the battery is, and how much the site's 
demand is.



If those with backup power do maintain Internet access during a power 
outage, do they lose that access if the power outage extends beyond a 
certain time? I.e., does the ISP network equipment go offline at some 
point in time due to batteries being drained and not having power 
generation capabilities?




Again, down to battery and demand sizing.

The other issue here is if there are multiple outages in the same 24hr 
period, the ability for the operator to sustain uptime decreases, 
because the battery never gets a full charge again.


Mark.

RE: home router battery backup

[Ryland Kremeier]

As a home user I have everything behind battery backup, my desktop, switches 
between buildings, and home server rack. Any outage that lasts less than 30 
minutes will not kick me offline. I mainly have my equipment behind UPS to 
protect from surges/storms and to account for power blinks or breaker trips 
which happen much more often when you’re working with 70 year old farm 
buildings.

Thank you,
-- Ryland

From: Scott T Anderson via NANOG
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 7:28 AM
To: Scott T Anderson via NANOG
Subject: RE: home router battery backup

Hi everyone,

Thanks very much for all the responses throughout the day. They are very 
helpful. Your (collective) answers triggered a couple follow-on questions:

For those individuals with backup battery power for their modem/router, do they 
maintain Internet access throughout a power outage (as long as their backup 
power solution works)? I.e., does the rest of the ISP network maintain service 
throughout a power outage?

Are the modems with backup power designed to operate for a specified period of 
time without power and if so, for how long and how was that duration identified?

If those with backup power do maintain Internet access during a power outage, 
do they lose that access if the power outage extends beyond a certain time? 
I.e., does the ISP network equipment go offline at some point in time due to 
batteries being drained and not having power generation capabilities?

Again, thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience!
Scott

From: NANOG  On Behalf Of 
richey.goldb...@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 12:38 PM
To: Scott T Anderson via NANOG 
Subject: Re: home router battery backup

At my last employer we installed lots of Adtrans at Car Dealerships, Hotels, 
and other SMBs.It was common for them to have a small UPS but 9 times out 
of 10 the UPS 2-3 times older than the life cycle of the battery and no one 
ever knew that you could change the battery in them.So they usually just 
had a heavy power strip that was prone to failing after a power loss.

We did have the option to install a battery back up on the Adtran but it would 
have been useless because most of them didn’t have any kind of backup power for 
their PBXs.


I’m pretty sure that my own power protection on my network gear and theater 
gear far exceeded the average end user’s remote offices.

-richey

From: NANOG 
mailto:nanog-bounces+richey.goldberg=gmail@nanog.org>>
 on behalf of Andy Ringsmuth mailto:a...@andyring.com>>
Date: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 at 1:16 PM
To: Scott T Anderson mailto:standers...@wisc.edu>>, Scott 
T Anderson via NANOG mailto:nanog@nanog.org>>
Subject: Re: home router battery backup

> On Jan 12, 2022, at 11:35 AM, Scott T Anderson via NANOG 
> mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> wrote:
>
> Hi NANOG mailing list,
>
> I am a graduate student, currently conducting research on how power outages 
> affect home Internet users. I know that the FCC has a regulation since 2015 
> (47 CFR Section 9.20) requiring ISPs to provide an option to voice customers 
> to purchase a battery backup for emergency voice services during power 
> outages. As this is only an option and only applies to customers who 
> subscribe to voice services, I was wondering if anyone had any insights on 
> the prevalence of battery backup for home modem/routers? I.e., what 
> percentage of home users actually install a battery backup in their home 
> modem/router or use an external UPS?
>
> Thanks.
> Scott

Given that most people barely even know what their home router is, I suspect 
the percentage would be somewhere south of 1 percent. Outside of my home, I 
honestly cannot recall EVER seeing someone’s home using a battery backup for 
their internet infrastructure.

I personally do, but of course I (and probably everyone on this list) am by no 
means representative of the population at large in this particular area.


Andy Ringsmuth
5609 Harding Drive
Lincoln, NE 68521-5831
(402) 304-0083
a...@andyring.com

Contact request AS 6453

[Drew Weaver]

Does anyone have a contact for AS 6453 or are there any AS 6453 folks on list?

Seeing some routing trouble from their customers to the US.

Thanks,
-Drew

RE: home router battery backup

[Scott T Anderson via NANOG]

Hi everyone,

Thanks very much for all the responses throughout the day. They are very 
helpful. Your (collective) answers triggered a couple follow-on questions:

For those individuals with backup battery power for their modem/router, do they 
maintain Internet access throughout a power outage (as long as their backup 
power solution works)? I.e., does the rest of the ISP network maintain service 
throughout a power outage?

Are the modems with backup power designed to operate for a specified period of 
time without power and if so, for how long and how was that duration identified?
If those with backup power do maintain Internet access during a power outage, 
do they lose that access if the power outage extends beyond a certain time? 
I.e., does the ISP network equipment go offline at some point in time due to 
batteries being drained and not having power generation capabilities?

Again, thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience!
Scott

From: NANOG  On Behalf Of 
richey.goldb...@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 12:38 PM
To: Scott T Anderson via NANOG 
Subject: Re: home router battery backup

At my last employer we installed lots of Adtrans at Car Dealerships, Hotels, 
and other SMBs.It was common for them to have a small UPS but 9 times out 
of 10 the UPS 2-3 times older than the life cycle of the battery and no one 
ever knew that you could change the battery in them.So they usually just 
had a heavy power strip that was prone to failing after a power loss.

We did have the option to install a battery back up on the Adtran but it would 
have been useless because most of them didn't have any kind of backup power for 
their PBXs.


I'm pretty sure that my own power protection on my network gear and theater 
gear far exceeded the average end user's remote offices.

-richey

From: NANOG 
mailto:nanog-bounces+richey.goldberg=gmail@nanog.org>>
 on behalf of Andy Ringsmuth mailto:a...@andyring.com>>
Date: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 at 1:16 PM
To: Scott T Anderson mailto:standers...@wisc.edu>>, Scott 
T Anderson via NANOG mailto:nanog@nanog.org>>
Subject: Re: home router battery backup

> On Jan 12, 2022, at 11:35 AM, Scott T Anderson via NANOG 
> mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> wrote:
>
> Hi NANOG mailing list,
>
> I am a graduate student, currently conducting research on how power outages 
> affect home Internet users. I know that the FCC has a regulation since 2015 
> (47 CFR Section 9.20) requiring ISPs to provide an option to voice customers 
> to purchase a battery backup for emergency voice services during power 
> outages. As this is only an option and only applies to customers who 
> subscribe to voice services, I was wondering if anyone had any insights on 
> the prevalence of battery backup for home modem/routers? I.e., what 
> percentage of home users actually install a battery backup in their home 
> modem/router or use an external UPS?
>
> Thanks.
> Scott

Given that most people barely even know what their home router is, I suspect 
the percentage would be somewhere south of 1 percent. Outside of my home, I 
honestly cannot recall EVER seeing someone's home using a battery backup for 
their internet infrastructure.

I personally do, but of course I (and probably everyone on this list) am by no 
means representative of the population at large in this particular area.


Andy Ringsmuth
5609 Harding Drive
Lincoln, NE 68521-5831
(402) 304-0083
a...@andyring.com

Re: SRv6 Capable NOS and Devices

[Saku Ytti]

On Thu, 13 Jan 2022 at 00:31, Colton Conor  wrote:

> I agree it seems like MPLS is still the gold standard, but ideally I
> would only want to have costly, MPLS devices on the edge, only where
> needed. The core and transport devices I would love to be able to use
> generic IPv6 enabled switches, that don't need to support LDP. Low end
> switches from premium vendors, like Juniper's  EX2200 - EX3400 don't
> support LDP for example.

It is utter fallacy that MPLS is costly, MPLS is systematically and
fundamentally cheaper than IPv4 (and of course IPv6 costs more than
IPv4).

However if this doesn't reflect your day-to-day reality, then you can
always do MPLSoGRE, so that core does not need more than IP. So in no
scenario is this narrative justification for hiding MPLS headers
inside IP headers, which is expensive and complex, systematically and
fundamentally.

-- 
  ++ytti