Re: Outside plant - prewire customer demarc preference

[Sean Donelan]

On Tue, 28 Nov 2023, Stan Barber wrote:

That being said, I would ask if the home is being prewired for alarm
services or not. If so, you could find an avenue to ask about other things.
My sister and her husband just bought a new house outside of Dallas and it
is coming prewired for RG6, wired alarm and CAT-6 ethernet.


Thanks for the suggestion.  I suspect the builder will try to sell a 
wireless alarm system instead, but I will suggest my relative ask 
the design consultants.


During my "dumb homebuyer" Thanksgiving tour, I found out the $1,000 smurf 
tube option was a 5-foot tube (2-inch) from the TV mounting box above the 
fireplace mantel to the side of the fireplace for a media console for a 
hdmi cable.


On the other hand, the sales person was very proud that the garage is 
"EV-Ready."  Which is how I found out the garage was their office, not on 
the tour.

Re: Outside plant - prewire customer demarc preference

[Stan Barber]

I am not personally aware of such a standard that is used in every state,
but it is worth checking with the state authority to see what standards are
applicable in the state.

That being said, I would ask if the home is being prewired for alarm
services or not. If so, you could find an avenue to ask about other things.
My sister and her husband just bought a new house outside of Dallas and it
is coming prewired for RG6, wired alarm and CAT-6 ethernet.

On Tue, Nov 28, 2023 at 4:45 PM Sean Donelan  wrote:

> My relative is buying a new house is a typical American surbuban tract
> housing development.  Yep, I'm the extended family I.T. consultant.
>
> The marketing brochure calls it "custom home" but he only gets to talk to
> the developer's "design consultants", i.e. sales people.  The developer
> has a sales center and pre-set upsell options, kitchen countertop
> choices, carpeting, etc. He never talks to the architect, general
> contractor, electricians or construction crew.
>
> He paid for a finished basement option, which means most of the basement
> will have sheetrock finished walls. So the first cable, fiber or
> telephone utility will be cutting holes in the new sheetrock. I was trying
> to avoid needing to cut brand-new sheetrock or fishing wire
> through walls.
>
> The design consultant's answer for everything was 5G ... 5G ... 5G. No
> more ugly boxes on the house, everything will be wireless. There is a
> special deal if he signed up for 5G wireless service before his house was
> finished.
>
> For something "no one ever asks about," the design consultant seemed to
> have a lot of prepared sales pitches.
>
>
> Acting like a dumb homebuyer over the Thanksgiving weekend I did notice
> the model home had a demarc box on the garage outside wall.  The garage
> in the model home is used as the builder's office, so it may not be how
> the built homes are setup.
>
>
> A new version of ANSI/TIA-570 (residential wiring standard) is due this
> year. In the old days, a minimum of one wired telephone outlet was
> required. I was just wondering if there was new 'standard' for demarcs in
> new residential construction.  But it sounds like there isn't. Draping
> cables around the sides of the house.
>
>

Re: Outside plant - prewire customer demarc preference

[Sean Donelan]

My relative is buying a new house is a typical American surbuban tract 
housing development.  Yep, I'm the extended family I.T. consultant.


The marketing brochure calls it "custom home" but he only gets to talk to 
the developer's "design consultants", i.e. sales people.  The developer 
has a sales center and pre-set upsell options, kitchen countertop 
choices, carpeting, etc. He never talks to the architect, general 
contractor, electricians or construction crew.


He paid for a finished basement option, which means most of the basement 
will have sheetrock finished walls. So the first cable, fiber or 
telephone utility will be cutting holes in the new sheetrock. I was trying 
to avoid needing to cut brand-new sheetrock or fishing wire 
through walls.


The design consultant's answer for everything was 5G ... 5G ... 5G. No 
more ugly boxes on the house, everything will be wireless. There is a 
special deal if he signed up for 5G wireless service before his house was 
finished.


For something "no one ever asks about," the design consultant seemed to 
have a lot of prepared sales pitches.



Acting like a dumb homebuyer over the Thanksgiving weekend I did notice 
the model home had a demarc box on the garage outside wall.  The garage 
in the model home is used as the builder's office, so it may not be how 
the built homes are setup.



A new version of ANSI/TIA-570 (residential wiring standard) is due this 
year. In the old days, a minimum of one wired telephone outlet was 
required. I was just wondering if there was new 'standard' for demarcs in 
new residential construction.  But it sounds like there isn't. Draping 
cables around the sides of the house.

COM zone operational announcement: DNSSEC algorithm rollover

[Wessels, Duane via NANOG]

Verisign will soon begin the transition to DNSSEC algorithm 13 (ECDSA) for the 
COM zone. Over the
next few days, algorithm 13 signatures will start to appear in the zone, 
followed by the algorithm
13 DNSKEY records. We expect the DS record for the COM zone to change from 
algorithm 8 to algorithm
13 on or around December 7. Additional information can be found at our blog 
post and DNS-OARC
presentation URLs below:

https://blog.verisign.com/security/dnssec-algorithm-update/
https://indico.dns-oarc.net/event/47/contributions/1012/

We expect no operational impacts for end users, but please feel free to reach 
out to us with concerns
or any observations of anomalous behavior related to this algorithm rollover.

DW

Re: Outside plant - prewire customer demarc preference

[Owen DeLong via NANOG]

> On Nov 28, 2023, at 07:27, Brandon Martin  wrote:
> 
> On 11/27/23 18:52, owen--- via NANOG wrote:
>> Why would 1” be significantly harder to get than 3/4”? Both in EMT and PVC, 
>> it’s readily available to the best of my knowledge.
> 
> Most residential electrical contractors are going to use rated ENT since it's 
> what they can easily get at a normal supply house or even home center.  This 
> is the stuff made popular by Carlon in their trademark blue that makes people 
> call it "smurf tube".  It's readily available in 1/2" and 3/4" everywhere 
> from home centers to basically any supply house.  1" is less common - most 
> home centers don't have it, and since it isn't normally needed in residential 
> nor is ENT basically ever used in commercial, neither do a lot of strictly 
> electrical supply houses.

I’ve never used ENT (never even seen that name, TBH). 1” EMT is readily 
available at Home Depot and Lowes out here as well as several reputable supply 
houses.

> You can of course get corrugated communication duct in that size, often with 
> mule tape pre-installed as a bonus, but a lot of electrical supply houses 
> that deal only in "electrical" and not "communications" don't have that and 
> will send folks to a "low voltage communication supplier" or have to special 
> order it.  A lot of electrical contractors, especially residential, would 
> rather not bother with a separate supply run, and having to wait is a pain if 
> it wasn't planned early on and also often means you're paying freight 
> separately.

Agreed, but out here at least, almost all of the electricians don’t bother with 
ENT and most do both commercial and residential work, so they just keep EMT on 
the trucks and usually have up to 2” readily available, with 3” and 4” in the 
not particularly difficult, but too bulky to carry unless needed category. I 
guess this may vary with locality.

> Even then, most of the folks going to a communications supplier are going to 
> reach straight for 1.25" or larger in commercial since you don't have to 
> worry about drilling studs.  As I recall, my local communication cable house 
> didn't even have 1" in stock, but they did have 1.25" in stock, and their 
> price was basically the same as the 1" as a result.

Sure, but smurf tubing is a hole other thing. Amusingly, at least locally, 
smooth interduct is easier to find than corrugated smurf tubing, though both 
are readily available.

> So it's not that it doesn't exist or anything, it's just that, at least as 
> far as I've seen, there's not a ton of demand for it, so local stock is thin.

I guess this varies by locality.

> All that said, I just checked Home Depot, and they are showing some stock on 
> 1" ENT at my local store, so maybe that's changing.  Used to be they only 
> stocked 3/4" and 1/2".  They still only have 25ft hanks of the 1" stuff (you 
> can get 1/2" and 3/4" in 25 or 100-200ft), but at least they have it now.  It 
> is still about 4x the price of 3/4" per unit length, though.

Interesting… ENT is apparently plastic and has interesting snap fittings. Until 
this email, I’ve never even looked into it. Used plenty of the “ENT” boxes, but 
always just called them PVC (since that’s what the ENT stuff is apparently made 
of). EMT is way more common out here than ENT, and even where plastic is used, 
most seem to use straight electrical PVC (grey stuff usually) instead of of the 
ENT brand stuff.

YMMV of course.

Owne

Re: Outside plant - prewire customer demarc preference

[Andy Ringsmuth]

> On Nov 27, 2023, at 5:52 PM, o...@delong.com  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Nov 27, 2023, at 11:45, Andy Ringsmuth  wrote:
>> 
>> That’s exactly what I did. I was able to get a 3/4 conduit from my furnace 
>> room/network closet to the exterior of my home where utilities enter. It 
>> took some doing but I got it in, terminated in a NEMA box.
> 
> Why would 1” be significantly harder to get than 3/4”? Both in EMT and PVC, 
> it’s readily available to the best of my knowledge.
> 
> Owen
> 
> 


Because in my instance, due to some of the bends involved, 3/4 was the best I 
could do. The bend radius on a 90 for 1-inch wasn’t going to fit in a couple 
places along the path.


-Andy

Re: Outside plant - prewire customer demarc preference

[Mike Hammett]

Why not just use SCH40 PVC sticks? Everywhere stocks that in copious levels. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

- Original Message -

From: "Brandon Martin"  
To: nanog@nanog.org 
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2023 9:27:58 AM 
Subject: Re: Outside plant - prewire customer demarc preference 

On 11/27/23 18:52, owen--- via NANOG wrote: 
> Why would 1” be significantly harder to get than 3/4”? Both in EMT and PVC, 
> it’s readily available to the best of my knowledge. 

Most residential electrical contractors are going to use rated ENT since 
it's what they can easily get at a normal supply house or even home 
center. This is the stuff made popular by Carlon in their trademark 
blue that makes people call it "smurf tube". It's readily available in 
1/2" and 3/4" everywhere from home centers to basically any supply 
house. 1" is less common - most home centers don't have it, and since 
it isn't normally needed in residential nor is ENT basically ever used 
in commercial, neither do a lot of strictly electrical supply houses. 

You can of course get corrugated communication duct in that size, often 
with mule tape pre-installed as a bonus, but a lot of electrical supply 
houses that deal only in "electrical" and not "communications" don't 
have that and will send folks to a "low voltage communication supplier" 
or have to special order it. A lot of electrical contractors, 
especially residential, would rather not bother with a separate supply 
run, and having to wait is a pain if it wasn't planned early on and also 
often means you're paying freight separately. 

Even then, most of the folks going to a communications supplier are 
going to reach straight for 1.25" or larger in commercial since you 
don't have to worry about drilling studs. As I recall, my local 
communication cable house didn't even have 1" in stock, but they did 
have 1.25" in stock, and their price was basically the same as the 1" as 
a result. 

So it's not that it doesn't exist or anything, it's just that, at least 
as far as I've seen, there's not a ton of demand for it, so local stock 
is thin. 

All that said, I just checked Home Depot, and they are showing some 
stock on 1" ENT at my local store, so maybe that's changing. Used to be 
they only stocked 3/4" and 1/2". They still only have 25ft hanks of the 
1" stuff (you can get 1/2" and 3/4" in 25 or 100-200ft), but at least 
they have it now. It is still about 4x the price of 3/4" per unit 
length, though. 

-- 
Brandon Martin 

Re: Outside plant - prewire customer demarc preference

[Brandon Martin]

On 11/27/23 18:52, owen--- via NANOG wrote:

Why would 1” be significantly harder to get than 3/4”? Both in EMT and PVC, 
it’s readily available to the best of my knowledge.


Most residential electrical contractors are going to use rated ENT since 
it's what they can easily get at a normal supply house or even home 
center.  This is the stuff made popular by Carlon in their trademark 
blue that makes people call it "smurf tube".  It's readily available in 
1/2" and 3/4" everywhere from home centers to basically any supply 
house.  1" is less common - most home centers don't have it, and since 
it isn't normally needed in residential nor is ENT basically ever used 
in commercial, neither do a lot of strictly electrical supply houses.


You can of course get corrugated communication duct in that size, often 
with mule tape pre-installed as a bonus, but a lot of electrical supply 
houses that deal only in "electrical" and not "communications" don't 
have that and will send folks to a "low voltage communication supplier" 
or have to special order it.  A lot of electrical contractors, 
especially residential, would rather not bother with a separate supply 
run, and having to wait is a pain if it wasn't planned early on and also 
often means you're paying freight separately.


Even then, most of the folks going to a communications supplier are 
going to reach straight for 1.25" or larger in commercial since you 
don't have to worry about drilling studs.  As I recall, my local 
communication cable house didn't even have 1" in stock, but they did 
have 1.25" in stock, and their price was basically the same as the 1" as 
a result.


So it's not that it doesn't exist or anything, it's just that, at least 
as far as I've seen, there's not a ton of demand for it, so local stock 
is thin.


All that said, I just checked Home Depot, and they are showing some 
stock on 1" ENT at my local store, so maybe that's changing.  Used to be 
they only stocked 3/4" and 1/2".  They still only have 25ft hanks of the 
1" stuff (you can get 1/2" and 3/4" in 25 or 100-200ft), but at least 
they have it now.  It is still about 4x the price of 3/4" per unit 
length, though.


--
Brandon Martin

Re: CPE/NID options

[Tom Samplonius]

  Of course.  Dying gasp is supported on most switches that are typically 
classified as NIDs.

  For example, Cisco:

https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/td/docs/switches/lan/catalyst1000/software/releases/15_2_7_e/configuration_guides/sys_mgmt/b_1527e_sys_mgmt_c1000_cg/m_sm_configuring_dying_gasp.pdf
m_sm_configuring_dying_gasp
PDF Document · 1.1 MB



  Dying gasp is just a Ethernet OAM frame broadcast on (usually) all ports just 
before loss of power.  If anything, Ethernet had this first, and ONTs just 
included it into their standards.


Tom



> On Nov 27, 2023, at 11:40 AM, Josh Luthman  
> wrote:
> 
> Can you have an ethernet switch with dying gasp?
> 
> Our ONTs (Calix, PON) have it but I don't see how you'd do it with ethernet.
> 
> On Mon, Nov 27, 2023 at 11:25 AM Tom Samplonius  > wrote:
>> 
>>   Adva, RAD, and Telco Systems are all good NID options.
>> 
>>   You can go with just any switch, but “proper” NIDs have dying gasp.  If 
>> the NID is going on a customer premise, I consider dying gasp a must.  The 
>> dying gasp allows your NOC to determine the difference between a network 
>> break and fiber cut.
>> 
>> 
>> Tom
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Nov 27, 2023, at 6:41 AM, Josh Luthman >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> Around here, Spectrum uses an Adva for demarc and it can not do rfc2544 
>>> testing.  They will unplug the Adva and plug in the techs' mobile unit 
>>> (Viavi I think).  VZW/Tmo/Sprint/etc don't seem to mind.
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Nov 27, 2023 at 9:34 AM Ryan Hamel >> > wrote:
 The problem with using switches as a CPE device is the lack of RFC2544 (or 
 equivalent) testing, and monitoring of the complete circuit with TWAMP. 
 Both of which are used to ensure compliance with an SLA.
 
 Ryan Hamel
 
 From: NANOG >>> > on behalf of Josh Luthman 
 mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>>
 Sent: Monday, November 27, 2023 6:14 AM
 To: Christopher Hawker mailto:ch...@thesysadmin.au>>
 Cc: North American Network Operators' Group >>> >
 Subject: Re: CPE/NID options
  
 Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take care 
 when clicking links or opening attachments.
 
 When you say fiber, is it Ethernet?  If you just want layer 2 and a media 
 converter, Mikrotik is a super good answer.
 
 On Thu, Nov 23, 2023 at 12:19 AM Christopher Hawker >>> > wrote:
 Hi Ross,
 
 I've found these Mikrotik devices to be excellent and reliable:
 
 CRS310-8G+2S+IN: 8 x 2.5G copper ethernet ports, 2 x SFP+ cages, 
 rack-mountable. Uses a single DC barrel-jack. 
 https://mikrotik.com/product/crs310_8g_2s_in
 CRS305-1G-4S+IN: 4 x SFP+ cages, dual DC barrel-jack ports for redundant 
 power, 1 x 1G copper ethernet port for OOB management. 
 https://mikrotik.com/product/crs305_1g_4s_in
 CRS310-1G-5S-4S+OUT: 4 x SFP+ cages, 5 x SFP cages, 1 x 1G copper ethernet 
 port for OOB management, can be mounted outdoors. 
 https://mikrotik.com/product/netfiber_9
 
 MSRP on all three are at or below $249.00 so are priced quite reasonably. 
 If you only need SFP+ cages I'd opt for the CRS305-1G-4S+IN.
 
 Regards,
 Christopher Hawker
 
 
 From: NANOG >>> > on behalf of Ross Tajvar 
 mailto:r...@tajvar.io>>
 Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2023 3:41 PM
 To: North American Network Operators' Group >>> >
 Subject: CPE/NID options
  
 I'm evaluating CPEs for one of my clients, a regional ISP. Currently, 
 we're terminating the customer's service (L3) on our upstream equipment 
 and extending it over our own fiber to the customer's premise, where it 
 lands in a Juniper EX2200 or EX2300.
 
 At a previous job, I used Accedian's ANTs on the customer prem side. I 
 like the ANT because it has a small footprint with only 2 ports, it's 
 passively cooled, it's very simple to operate, it's controlled centrally, 
 etc. Unfortunately, when I reached out to Accedian, they insisted that the 
 controller (which is required) started at $30k, which is a non-starter for 
 us.
 
 I'm not aware of any other products like this. Does anyone have a 
 recommendation for a simple L2* device to deploy to customer premises? Not 
 necessarily the exact same thing, but something similarly-featured would 
 be ideal.
 
 *I'm not sure if the ANT is exactly "layer 2", but I don't know what else 
 to call it.
>>