Re: BGP Peer Selection Considerations
If nothing else by the time this deployment is finished I will surely have become extremely cynical. Now reading through peoples answers, I think the general consensus is that I would be giving too much control to provider A in the scenario I suggested below. So as someone mentioned they have the ability to foul up my connections all by themselves. From all of this I gather that the most resilience would be provided by: 1) Go to two tier 1 carriers myself - say Global Crossing and Level 3. Arrange to get two 100meg BGP feeds, burstable. Pick them up at different datacentres as well I suppose to provide datacentre redundancy? Negotiate pricing, any tips on negotiating appreciated. 2) Arrange cross connects to these providers i.e. get to the datacentres the Tier1 providers are in. They are not on net at the colo we are in. With regards to arranging the cross connects am I able to ask the cross connect providers for fibre maps? Is this a done thing or will they brush me off with you don't need this our network is diverse? 3) Arrange for PI space and ASN myself, so become an LIR through RIPE. Do I really lose a lot by asking Level3 or GBLX to get the PI and ASN for me? I think the failure mode cited by someone was if the PI and ASN provider goes out of business. I would prefer not to go through becoming an LIR and maintaining the membership, as they are not an ISP and so it is more attractive to do that through one of the Tier 1 providers. I'm not sure what my options are in terms of getting to the datacentres to pick up the Tier1 providers. The provider A below has said they run a diverse fibre backhaul network etc etc. and I should go with them for connectivity to other datacentres. Now it would be easier to go with them just because they are running colo for us and they run the datacentre we are in. However I assume that I should not be scared of arranging a second cross connect with someone else altogether. In all of the above, I'm most worried about administrative overhead. Managing two cross connect providers, managing ongoing relationship with two Tier1 providers and so on. However resilience comes at a cost I suppose is the answer. Comments appreciated. Adel On Mon 7:10 PM , William Herrin herrin-na...@dirtside.com sent: On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 12:40 PM, adel@ baklawasecrets.com wrote: I have an existing relationship with provider A, colo, cross connects etc. Provider A has offered to get the PI space, ASN number, purchase the transit for us with provider B and manage cross connects to provider B (they say they have a diverse fibre backhaul network). This is quite attractive from a support and billing perspective. Also suspect that provider A will be able to get more attractive pricing from Provider B than I would be able to. Am I missing things that I need to consider? What happens when provider A is bought by provider C and you want to dump provider C but keep provider B? You'll have created a conflict of interest for provider B in any negotiation you have with them. Be aware that provider A's diverse network for provider A's service is the same diverse network they'll use to connect you to provider B. As a result, many or most of the outages which impact provider A will also impact your connectivity to provider B, defeating the central purpose of having a provider B. Regards, Bill Herrin -- William D. Herrin her...@di rtside.com b...@herrin.us 3005 Crane Dr. .. Web: http://bill.herrin.us/Falls Church, VA 22042-3004
Re: BGP Peer Selection Considerations
On 10/11/2009 09:52, a...@baklawasecrets.com wrote: 3) Arrange for PI space and ASN myself, so become an LIR through RIPE. You don't need to become a LIR to get PI space and an ASN. Do I really lose a lot by asking Level3 or GBLX to get the PI and ASN for me? You lose relatively little. If you wish to move your provider independent resources to another LIR at a later stage, RIPE are very happy to assist. I think the failure mode cited by someone was if the PI and ASN provider goes out of business. If they go out of business, there's a small amount of overhead - you find yourself a new LIR and life will continue on. I wouldn't worry about it too much. I would prefer not to go through becoming an LIR and maintaining the membership Probably sensible. Nick
Re: BGP Peer Selection Considerations
I've decided to get transit from provider B independently of A, so I don't create a conflict of interest as mentioned below. However I think that I will have to use provider A's dark fibre network to connect to both peerings. Provider A tells me that they will use different routes and different entry points to get to their peering and separate routes, entries to get to B's peering. As they own the datacentre and can probably provide the bests costs for getting into the datacentres where the second transit provider is, I think I will have to use I should mention there are no transit providers on net at the datacentre facility which has been acquired by the business. I suspect it will be cheaper to get the cross connects to where the transit provider is from provider A, (did I mention provider A owns the datacentre?). I know I'll be sacrificing some resilience by using A's network to get to both Internet services, however I think I will just have to outline the risks to the business and go with it. Moving datacentres isn't an option and as long as I understand exactly what resilience I sacrifice by getting A to provide all the cross connects, I can explain that to the business. Adel On Mon 7:10 PM , William Herrin herrin-na...@dirtside.com wrote: On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 12:40 PM, wrote: I have an existing relationship with provider A, colo, cross connects etc. Provider A has offered to get the PI space, ASN number, purchase the transit for us with provider B and manage cross connects to provider B (they say they have a diverse fibre backhaul network). This is quite attractive from a support and billing perspective. Also suspect that provider A will be able to get more attractive pricing from Provider B than I would be able to. Am I missing things that I need to consider? What happens when provider A is bought by provider C and you want to dump provider C but keep provider B? You'll have created a conflict of interest for provider B in any negotiation you have with them. Be aware that provider A's diverse network for provider A's service is the same diverse network they'll use to connect you to provider B. As a result, many or most of the outages which impact provider A will also impact your connectivity to provider B, defeating the central purpose of having a provider B. Regards, Bill Herrin -- William D. Herrin her...@dirtside.com b...@herrin.us 3005 Crane Dr. .. Web:
BGP Peer Selection Considerations
Hi, Thanks to everyone that replied to my post on failover configuration. This has lead me to this post. I'm at a point now where I'm looking at dual-homing with two BGP peers upstream. Now what I am looking at doing is as follows: BGP Peer with Provider A who is multihomed to other providers. BGP Peer with Provider B who is not peered with provider A I have an existing relationship with provider A, colo, cross connects etc. Provider A has offered to get the PI space, ASN number, purchase the transit for us with provider B and manage cross connects to provider B (they say they have a diverse fibre backhaul network). This is quite attractive from a support and billing perspective. Also suspect that provider A will be able to get more attractive pricing from Provider B than I would be able to. Am I missing things that I need to consider?
Re: BGP Peer Selection Considerations
a...@baklawasecrets.com wrote: Hi, Thanks to everyone that replied to my post on failover configuration. This has lead me to this post. I'm at a point now where I'm looking at dual-homing with two BGP peers upstream. Now what I am looking at doing is as follows: BGP Peer with Provider A who is multihomed to other providers. BGP Peer with Provider B who is not peered with provider A I have an existing relationship with provider A, colo, cross connects etc. Provider A has offered to get the PI space, ASN number, purchase the transit for us with provider B and manage cross connects to provider B (they say they have a diverse fibre backhaul network). This is quite attractive from a support and billing perspective. Also suspect that provider A will be able to get more attractive pricing from Provider B than I would be able to. Am I missing things that I need to consider? Don't let them cross connect over their network. Bring it in to your site separate from A, otherwise there's no point in the multihoming exercise. ~Seth
Re: BGP Peer Selection Considerations
On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 12:40 PM, a...@baklawasecrets.com wrote: I have an existing relationship with provider A, colo, cross connects etc. Provider A has offered to get the PI space, ASN number, purchase the transit for us with provider B and manage cross connects to provider B (they say they have a diverse fibre backhaul network). This is quite attractive from a support and billing perspective. Also suspect that provider A will be able to get more attractive pricing from Provider B than I would be able to. Am I missing things that I need to consider? What happens when provider A is bought by provider C and you want to dump provider C but keep provider B? You'll have created a conflict of interest for provider B in any negotiation you have with them. Be aware that provider A's diverse network for provider A's service is the same diverse network they'll use to connect you to provider B. As a result, many or most of the outages which impact provider A will also impact your connectivity to provider B, defeating the central purpose of having a provider B. Regards, Bill Herrin -- William D. Herrin her...@dirtside.com b...@herrin.us 3005 Crane Dr. .. Web: http://bill.herrin.us/ Falls Church, VA 22042-3004
Re: BGP Peer Selection Considerations
Don't let them cross connect over their network. Bring it in to your site separate from A, otherwise there's no point in the multihoming exercise. s/no point/less benefit/ ... JG -- Joe Greco - sol.net Network Services - Milwaukee, WI - http://www.sol.net We call it the 'one bite at the apple' rule. Give me one chance [and] then I won't contact you again. - Direct Marketing Ass'n position on e-mail spam(CNN) With 24 million small businesses in the US alone, that's way too many apples.
Re: BGP Peer Selection Considerations
William Herrin wrote: Be aware that provider A's diverse network for provider A's service is the same diverse network they'll use to connect you to provider B. As a result, many or most of the outages which impact provider A will also impact your connectivity to provider B, defeating the central purpose of having a provider B. I'll just add to the OP: you want them independent *to you* not internally diverse between themselves. How would that help your site be independent? I'm sure the billing/support sounds attractive (and they get to upsell you), but you won't gain provider independence, only a larger bill. ~Seth
Re: BGP Peer Selection Considerations
a...@baklawasecrets.com wrote: Hi, Thanks to everyone that replied to my post on failover configuration. This has lead me to this post. I'm at a point now where I'm looking at dual-homing with two BGP peers upstream. Now what I am looking at doing is as follows: BGP Peer with Provider A who is multihomed to other providers. BGP Peer with Provider B who is not peered with provider A I have an existing relationship with provider A, colo, cross connects etc. Provider A has offered to get the PI space, ASN number, purchase the transit for us with provider B and manage cross connects to provider B ...I've likely missed something, but get the IP/ASN for yourself. *ensure* that A B will peer and provide transit for you. (they say they have a diverse fibre backhaul network). This is quite attractive from a support and billing perspective. ...until you find out that the backhaul network is owned by Provider B, or virtualized within an existing circuit to someplace else. Also suspect that provider A will be able to get more attractive pricing from Provider B than I would be able to. But at what cost? Am I missing things that I need to consider? I think so. Long-term survival for one. If you are budgeted for a diverse and redundant network, then I recommend that you ensure one. My current understanding is that you can negotiate terms with potential providers where there is competition. Don't allow any of your ISPs to manage/dictate the use of your address space. It will bite you, and cause undue frustration. Steve
