Re: Best practice for BGP session/ full routes for customer
On Thursday, July 17, 2014 12:24:45 PM Nick Hilliard wrote: there are other drawbacks too: the difference in convergence time between 24k prefixes and a full dfz is usually going to be large although I haven't tested this on an me3600x yet. Not having to install the routes into FIB (even on software- based platforms) makes a ton of difference. Our testing when using this feature on the ME3600X has shown: 1. The switch will download a full copy of the IPv6 table of 18,282 entries in 1 second. This is from 2x local route reflectors, so no latency. 2. The switch will download a full copy of the IPv4 table of 499,437 entries in 3 minutes, 10 seconds. This is from 2x local route reflectors, so no latency. The IPv4 convergence was consuming between 12% - 30% CPU utilization during the table download. This was on the IPv4 table, given its size. The IPv6 didn't bother the switch in any way. The CPU on the ME3600X is a little slow; we've seen far better IPv4 BGP table download times on meatier CPU's, and the CSR1000v, which runs on servers that kick typical router CPU's into the stone age. Also these boxes only have 1G of memory might be a bit tight as the dfz increases. For sure, it's already not enough on a bunch of other vanilla ios platforms. Total memory utilized (for 2x full BGPv4 and BGPv6 feeds, and after IOS deducts system memory for itself) came to 370MB. That left 424MB of memory free. Code is 15.4(2)S. Cheers, Mark. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Best practice for BGP session/ full routes for customer
Thanks everyone for insightful answers! On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 6:09 AM, Mark Tinka mark.ti...@seacom.mu wrote: On Monday, July 14, 2014 07:32:43 PM Jeff Tantsura wrote: Mark, BGP to RIB filtering (in any vendor implementation) is targeting RR which is not in the forwarding path, so there¹s no forwarding towards any destination filtered out from RIB. Using it selectively on a forwarding node is error prone and in case of incorrect configuration would result in blackholing. As with every feature on a router, you need to know what you're doing to make it work. Don't blame the cows if you turn on knobs you have no business using, or don't care to learn the risks of. We use this feature in our network successfully, because we know what we're doing, and care to understand the risks. If I use it in a manner other than previously directed (while I know it's a use-case, I've never heard of any vendor saying it ONLY targeted out-of-path route reflectors, but then again, I don't generally walk vendor corridors for the scoop), well, welcome to the Internet; where core routers can either be behemoths that move air the size of a football field and could be mistaken for seismic detection machines, or last generation's x86 home desktop running Quagga and grandma's health app :-). Mark. -- Anurag Bhatia anuragbhatia.com Linkedin http://in.linkedin.com/in/anuragbhatia21 | Twitter https://twitter.com/anurag_bhatia Skype: anuragbhatia.com PGP Key Fingerprint: 3115 677D 2E94 B696 651B 870C C06D D524 245E 58E2
Re: Best practice for BGP session/ full routes for customer
On 14/07/2014 18:32, Jeff Tantsura wrote: BGP to RIB filtering (in any vendor implementation) is targeting RR which is not in the forwarding path, so there¹s no forwarding towards any destination filtered out from RIB. Using it selectively on a forwarding node is error prone and in case of incorrect configuration would result in blackholing. there are other drawbacks too: the difference in convergence time between 24k prefixes and a full dfz is usually going to be large although I haven't tested this on an me3600x yet. Also these boxes only have 1G of memory might be a bit tight as the dfz increases. For sure, it's already not enough on a bunch of other vanilla ios platforms. Nick Cheers, Jeff -Original Message- From: Mark Tinka mark.ti...@seacom.mu Organization: SEACOM Reply-To: mark.ti...@seacom.mu Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2014 at 1:56 PM To: nanog@nanog.org nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Best practice for BGP session/ full routes for customer On Monday, July 07, 2014 08:33:12 PM Anurag Bhatia wrote: In this scenario what is best practice for giving full table to downstream? In our case, we have three types of edge routers; Juniper MX480 + Cisco ASR1006, and the Cisco ME3600X. For the MX480 and ASR1006 have no problems supporting a full table. So customers peer natively. The ME3600X is a small switch, that supports only up to 24,000 IPv4 and 5,000 IPv6 FIB entries. However, Cisco have a feature called BGP Selective Download: http://tinyurl.com/nodnmct Using BGP-SD, we can send a full BGP table from our route reflectors to our ME3600X switches, without worrying about them entering the FIB, i.e., they are held only in memory. The beauty - you can advertise these routes to customers natively, without clunky eBGP Multi-Hop sessions running rampant. Of course, with BGP-SD, you still need a 0/0 + ::/0 route in the FIB for traffic to flow from your customers upstream, but that is fine as it's only two entries :-). If your system supports a BGP-SD-type implementation, I'd recommend it, provided you have sufficient control plane memory. Cheers, Mark.
Re: Best practice for BGP session/ full routes for customer
On Monday, July 14, 2014 07:32:43 PM Jeff Tantsura wrote: Mark, BGP to RIB filtering (in any vendor implementation) is targeting RR which is not in the forwarding path, so there¹s no forwarding towards any destination filtered out from RIB. Using it selectively on a forwarding node is error prone and in case of incorrect configuration would result in blackholing. As with every feature on a router, you need to know what you're doing to make it work. Don't blame the cows if you turn on knobs you have no business using, or don't care to learn the risks of. We use this feature in our network successfully, because we know what we're doing, and care to understand the risks. If I use it in a manner other than previously directed (while I know it's a use-case, I've never heard of any vendor saying it ONLY targeted out-of-path route reflectors, but then again, I don't generally walk vendor corridors for the scoop), well, welcome to the Internet; where core routers can either be behemoths that move air the size of a football field and could be mistaken for seismic detection machines, or last generation's x86 home desktop running Quagga and grandma's health app :-). Mark. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Best practice for BGP session/ full routes for customer
Mark, BGP to RIB filtering (in any vendor implementation) is targeting RR which is not in the forwarding path, so there¹s no forwarding towards any destination filtered out from RIB. Using it selectively on a forwarding node is error prone and in case of incorrect configuration would result in blackholing. Cheers, Jeff -Original Message- From: Mark Tinka mark.ti...@seacom.mu Organization: SEACOM Reply-To: mark.ti...@seacom.mu Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2014 at 1:56 PM To: nanog@nanog.org nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Best practice for BGP session/ full routes for customer On Monday, July 07, 2014 08:33:12 PM Anurag Bhatia wrote: In this scenario what is best practice for giving full table to downstream? In our case, we have three types of edge routers; Juniper MX480 + Cisco ASR1006, and the Cisco ME3600X. For the MX480 and ASR1006 have no problems supporting a full table. So customers peer natively. The ME3600X is a small switch, that supports only up to 24,000 IPv4 and 5,000 IPv6 FIB entries. However, Cisco have a feature called BGP Selective Download: http://tinyurl.com/nodnmct Using BGP-SD, we can send a full BGP table from our route reflectors to our ME3600X switches, without worrying about them entering the FIB, i.e., they are held only in memory. The beauty - you can advertise these routes to customers natively, without clunky eBGP Multi-Hop sessions running rampant. Of course, with BGP-SD, you still need a 0/0 + ::/0 route in the FIB for traffic to flow from your customers upstream, but that is fine as it's only two entries :-). If your system supports a BGP-SD-type implementation, I'd recommend it, provided you have sufficient control plane memory. Cheers, Mark.
Re: Best practice for BGP session/ full routes for customer
On Monday, July 07, 2014 08:33:12 PM Anurag Bhatia wrote: In this scenario what is best practice for giving full table to downstream? In our case, we have three types of edge routers; Juniper MX480 + Cisco ASR1006, and the Cisco ME3600X. For the MX480 and ASR1006 have no problems supporting a full table. So customers peer natively. The ME3600X is a small switch, that supports only up to 24,000 IPv4 and 5,000 IPv6 FIB entries. However, Cisco have a feature called BGP Selective Download: http://tinyurl.com/nodnmct Using BGP-SD, we can send a full BGP table from our route reflectors to our ME3600X switches, without worrying about them entering the FIB, i.e., they are held only in memory. The beauty - you can advertise these routes to customers natively, without clunky eBGP Multi-Hop sessions running rampant. Of course, with BGP-SD, you still need a 0/0 + ::/0 route in the FIB for traffic to flow from your customers upstream, but that is fine as it's only two entries :-). If your system supports a BGP-SD-type implementation, I'd recommend it, provided you have sufficient control plane memory. Cheers, Mark. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Best practice for BGP session/ full routes for customer
On Monday, July 07, 2014 08:46:05 PM Jason Lixfeld wrote: 1. You already know that multihop is very ugly. If it's for a one-off, it's probably fine. But building a product around multi-hop wouldn't be my first choice. We prefer Layer 2 bundling technologies like 802.1AX, POS bundles or ML-PPP. However, some customers just can't support this, but have multiple links to us and need load sharing. In this case, eBGP Mulit-Hop is a reasonable use-case. Mark. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Best practice for BGP session/ full routes for customer
On Monday, July 07, 2014 08:46:05 PM Jason Lixfeld wrote: 3. If your network is MPLS enabled, you can do a routed pseudowire from a BGP speaking router with a full table to the access router (PE). Other tunnelling technologies can probably do the same thing; GRE, L2TPv3 and also a plain'ol VLAN can do it too, depending on your network topology. Do some sort of OAM over top of either of those (if your platform supports it) and it looks just like a wire to the end customer. Nasty, as I generally walk away from centralization. However, if that's your only option... Mark. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Best practice for BGP session/ full routes for customer
Hello everyone! I have quick question on how you provide full BGP table to downstream customers? Most of large networks have few border routers (Internet gateways) which get full table feed and then they have Access routers on which customers are terminated. Now I don't think it makes sense to push full routing table on the access routers and simply their default points to border routers. In this scenario what is best practice for giving full table to downstream? 1. Having multi-hop BGP session with a loopback on border router for injecting full table in customer router and another BGP session with access router for receiving routes? (messy!) 2. Injecting full table in just all access routers so that it can be provided whenever needed? 3. Any other? Thanks in advance! -- Anurag Bhatia anuragbhatia.com Linkedin http://in.linkedin.com/in/anuragbhatia21 | Twitter https://twitter.com/anurag_bhatia Skype: anuragbhatia.com PGP Key Fingerprint: 3115 677D 2E94 B696 651B 870C C06D D524 245E 58E2
Re: Best practice for BGP session/ full routes for customer
1. You already know that multihop is very ugly. If it's for a one-off, it's probably fine. But building a product around multi-hop wouldn't be my first choice. 2. Most of the router/switch vendors that can support a full table are pretty expensive, per port. Your best bet here might be to look into some way of transparently dragging customer traffic from the PE to the BGP speaker, which leads me to: 3. If your network is MPLS enabled, you can do a routed pseudowire from a BGP speaking router with a full table to the access router (PE). Other tunnelling technologies can probably do the same thing; GRE, L2TPv3 and also a plain'ol VLAN can do it too, depending on your network topology. Do some sort of OAM over top of either of those (if your platform supports it) and it looks just like a wire to the end customer. On Jul 7, 2014, at 2:33 PM, Anurag Bhatia m...@anuragbhatia.com wrote: Hello everyone! I have quick question on how you provide full BGP table to downstream customers? Most of large networks have few border routers (Internet gateways) which get full table feed and then they have Access routers on which customers are terminated. Now I don't think it makes sense to push full routing table on the access routers and simply their default points to border routers. In this scenario what is best practice for giving full table to downstream? 1. Having multi-hop BGP session with a loopback on border router for injecting full table in customer router and another BGP session with access router for receiving routes? (messy!) 2. Injecting full table in just all access routers so that it can be provided whenever needed? 3. Any other? Thanks in advance! -- Anurag Bhatia anuragbhatia.com Linkedin http://in.linkedin.com/in/anuragbhatia21 | Twitter https://twitter.com/anurag_bhatia Skype: anuragbhatia.com PGP Key Fingerprint: 3115 677D 2E94 B696 651B 870C C06D D524 245E 58E2
