Re: California public safety power shutdowns

[Stephen Satchell]

On 10/11/19 8:01 AM, Ethan O'Toole wrote:
>> request went all the way to the Court.  The reason for access?  They ran
>> the electronics on bottled propane (NOT mains power AC) and they needed
>> to swap full tanks for the empties.  This was several months into my
>> stint on that site.
>> Not all generators run on diesel, I learned.
> 
> You can drive a gasoline generator with natural gas and propane, there
> is just less energy so it takes more of those fuels to get the same
> energy output.
> 
> There are also fuel cells that take LPG.
> 
> Was this a really tiny microcell? I wouldn't think they could run for
> months on bottled LPG if there is any kind of real load at the site.
> 
>     - Ethan

Not a tiny microcell.  The casino in question is located in Incline
Village, on the shore of Lake Tahoe and in prime ski country.  The
downside of ski country is that you have fairly frequent power outages
in winter due to weather, plus the long haul through mountains of fair
capacity transmission lines.

Now I could be mistaken, and the propane was for a stand-by generator.

Re: California public safety power shutdowns

[Ethan O'Toole]

request went all the way to the Court.  The reason for access?  They ran
the electronics on bottled propane (NOT mains power AC) and they needed
to swap full tanks for the empties.  This was several months into my
stint on that site.
Not all generators run on diesel, I learned.


You can drive a gasoline generator with natural gas and propane, there is 
just less energy so it takes more of those fuels to get the same energy 
output.


There are also fuel cells that take LPG.

Was this a really tiny microcell? I wouldn't think they could run for 
months on bottled LPG if there is any kind of real load at the site.


- Ethan

Re: California public safety power shutdowns

[Stephen Satchell]

On 10/10/19 8:46 PM, Javier J wrote:
> I have an alternative view. the more generators are running, the more
> trucks semt to refuel the tanks, the more moving parts, the more likely an
> accident is prone to happen somewhere. It's thr same reason you turn your
> vehicles engine off when you fill up at the gas station.
> 
> Diesel doesn't combust easily without conpression, but I'm pretty sure you
> can find incidents where diesel engines catch fire. maybe the roof of a
> datacenter is not a risk factor, but in thinking remote antennas on the top
> of a mountain anything can happen.

When I was between jobs in IT, I worked as a security guard for a year.
 During that year, the company I worked for supplied on-prem security
for a bankrupt casino at Lake Tahoe.

When one of the cell phone companies requested access to their equipment
located on the roof of the parking garage (space they leased) the
request went all the way to the Court.  The reason for access?  They ran
the electronics on bottled propane (NOT mains power AC) and they needed
to swap full tanks for the empties.  This was several months into my
stint on that site.

Not all generators run on diesel, I learned.

Re: California public safety power shutdowns

[Sean Donelan]

A pre-announced power shut-down is a bit like an open-book disaster exam.
If a city wasn't prepared for a blackout, its going to be a lot worse 
after a major earthquake (or other catastrophe) hits.




PG CEO Bill Johnson admitted during a Thursday evening press conference 
that the utility thoroughly botched its Public Safety Power Shutoff, 
apologizing to customers.

[...]
Johnson also apologized for all the technical problems with the PG 
website and promised to get them right next time.


“Our website crashed several times. Our maps are inconsistent and maybe in 
correct. Our call centers were overloaded,” said Johnson. “To put it 
simply, we were not adequately prepared to support the operational event.”




https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/10/11/pge-shut-down-power-too-many-internet-users-shut-down-its-website/
[...]
PG says the site was never completely inaccessible, but that it was slow 
to load amid heavy traffic.


PG spokesman Paul Doherty said the utility doubled its server capacity 
in advance of the outages but that the traffic levels were eight times 
what PG expected and slowed the site significantly. He said he did not 
know exactly how many people had tried to visit the site.


Doherty said the utility made efforts to inform affected customers over 
email, text and phone calls so they would know whether they were likely to 
be in the outage zone. The company says it has since addressed the issues 
with its website.

[...]

Re: California public safety power shutdowns

[Javier J]

I have an alternative view. the more generators are running, the more
trucks semt to refuel the tanks, the more moving parts, the more likely an
accident is prone to happen somewhere. It's thr same reason you turn your
vehicles engine off when you fill up at the gas station.

Diesel doesn't combust easily without conpression, but I'm pretty sure you
can find incidents where diesel engines catch fire. maybe the roof of a
datacenter is not a risk factor, but in thinking remote antennas on the top
of a mountain anything can happen.

On Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 8:52 PM Mel Beckman  wrote:

> Sean,
>
> A diesel generator sparking a fire is extremely unlikely. A diesel
> generator by code must have a clear, nonflammable, area around it, and a
> spark arrestor on the exhaust to protect against burning particles in the
> exhaust. Diesel generators are not even a listed cause according to the
> National Wildfire Coordinating Group:
>
> https://www.nwcg.gov/sites/default/files/publications/pms412.pdf
>
> Let’s not go making up fantastical monsters. There are plenty of real
> monsters to go around :)
>
>  -mel
>
> On Oct 10, 2019, at 5:29 PM, Ca By  wrote:
>
> I just hope the next fire is not sparked by a diesel generator that is
> running because commercial power is off.
>
> On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 3:48 PM Sean Donelan  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> AT statement:
>>
>> Like all PG customers, we are also affected by this power shutdown.
>> Overall our network continues to perform well and is operating at more
>> than 97% cause
>
> of normal. We are aware that service for some customers may be
>> affected by this event and are working as quickly as possible to deploy
>> additional generators and recovery equipment. We appreciate our
>> customer’s
>> patience.
>>
>>
>> T-Mobile statement:
>>
>> The T-Mobile network is holding up well during the ongoing PG and SCE
>> safety power shut offs in California. We are seeing a small number of
>> sites down in some of the areas affected by the power shut off.
>>
>> Our response teams are working to get sites back up and running as
>> quickly
>> as possible. We understand that service disruptions are an inconvenience
>> to our customers and we appreciate their patience during this event.
>>
>>
>> Verizon:
>>
>> Verizon spokeswoman Jeannine Brew Braggs said the company can serve
>> customers "indefinitely" until commercial power is restored. She
>> attributed that to the generators and backup batteries on-site at the
>> majority of its cell towers and other locations. Brew Braggs said the
>> company can refuel the generators to keep them running.
>>
>>
>> I'm still looking for statements from Sprint and US Cellular.
>>
>

Re: California public safety power shutdowns

[Mel Beckman]

Sean,

A diesel generator sparking a fire is extremely unlikely. A diesel generator by 
code must have a clear, nonflammable, area around it, and a spark arrestor on 
the exhaust to protect against burning particles in the exhaust. Diesel 
generators are not even a listed cause according to the National Wildfire 
Coordinating Group:

https://www.nwcg.gov/sites/default/files/publications/pms412.pdf

Let’s not go making up fantastical monsters. There are plenty of real monsters 
to go around :)

 -mel

On Oct 10, 2019, at 5:29 PM, Ca By 
mailto:cb.li...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I just hope the next fire is not sparked by a diesel generator that is running 
because commercial power is off.

On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 3:48 PM Sean Donelan 
mailto:s...@donelan.com>> wrote:


AT statement:

Like all PG customers, we are also affected by this power shutdown.
Overall our network continues to perform well and is operating at more
than 97% cause
of normal. We are aware that service for some customers may be
affected by this event and are working as quickly as possible to deploy
additional generators and recovery equipment. We appreciate our customer’s
patience.


T-Mobile statement:

The T-Mobile network is holding up well during the ongoing PG and SCE
safety power shut offs in California. We are seeing a small number of
sites down in some of the areas affected by the power shut off.

Our response teams are working to get sites back up and running as quickly
as possible. We understand that service disruptions are an inconvenience
to our customers and we appreciate their patience during this event.


Verizon:

Verizon spokeswoman Jeannine Brew Braggs said the company can serve
customers "indefinitely" until commercial power is restored. She
attributed that to the generators and backup batteries on-site at the
majority of its cell towers and other locations. Brew Braggs said the
company can refuel the generators to keep them running.


I'm still looking for statements from Sprint and US Cellular.

Re: California public safety power shutdowns

[Ca By]

I just hope the next fire is not sparked by a diesel generator that is
running because commercial power is off.

On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 3:48 PM Sean Donelan  wrote:

>
>
> AT statement:
>
> Like all PG customers, we are also affected by this power shutdown.
> Overall our network continues to perform well and is operating at more
> than 97% cause

of normal. We are aware that service for some customers may be
> affected by this event and are working as quickly as possible to deploy
> additional generators and recovery equipment. We appreciate our customer’s
> patience.
>
>
> T-Mobile statement:
>
> The T-Mobile network is holding up well during the ongoing PG and SCE
> safety power shut offs in California. We are seeing a small number of
> sites down in some of the areas affected by the power shut off.
>
> Our response teams are working to get sites back up and running as quickly
> as possible. We understand that service disruptions are an inconvenience
> to our customers and we appreciate their patience during this event.
>
>
> Verizon:
>
> Verizon spokeswoman Jeannine Brew Braggs said the company can serve
> customers "indefinitely" until commercial power is restored. She
> attributed that to the generators and backup batteries on-site at the
> majority of its cell towers and other locations. Brew Braggs said the
> company can refuel the generators to keep them running.
>
>
> I'm still looking for statements from Sprint and US Cellular.
>

Re: California public safety power shutdowns

[Sean Donelan]

Comcast statement:

Hi. Parts of our network that connect to your Xfinity service may be in 
areas where the commercial power is off leading to a disruption. Once 
power is fully restored to those parts of the network, and it is safe to 
do so, we will restore service ASAP.

Re: California public safety power shutdowns

[Sean Donelan]

AT statement:

Like all PG customers, we are also affected by this power shutdown. 
Overall our network continues to perform well and is operating at more 
than 97% of normal. We are aware that service for some customers may be 
affected by this event and are working as quickly as possible to deploy 
additional generators and recovery equipment. We appreciate our customer’s 
patience.



T-Mobile statement:

The T-Mobile network is holding up well during the ongoing PG and SCE 
safety power shut offs in California. We are seeing a small number of 
sites down in some of the areas affected by the power shut off.


Our response teams are working to get sites back up and running as quickly 
as possible. We understand that service disruptions are an inconvenience 
to our customers and we appreciate their patience during this event.



Verizon:

Verizon spokeswoman Jeannine Brew Braggs said the company can serve 
customers "indefinitely" until commercial power is restored. She 
attributed that to the generators and backup batteries on-site at the 
majority of its cell towers and other locations. Brew Braggs said the 
company can refuel the generators to keep them running.



I'm still looking for statements from Sprint and US Cellular.

Re: California public safety power shutdowns

[Javier J]

Reminds me of Enron days.

On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 2:06 PM Michael Thomas  wrote:

>
> On 10/10/19 10:40 AM, Randy Bush wrote:
> >> Pacific Gas & Electric and Southern California Edison have started
> >> Public Safety Power Shut-offs (PSPS) in California wildfire high-risk
> >> areas.
> > not exactly
> >
> > the diablo winds are way north in the state.  but much of the power
> > for the big metros is bought from the hydros in the northwest and
> > has to come on lines through the windy area.
> >
> > for some years, pg traded short term profits for long term risk by
> > not clearing the lines.  their long term risk cost lives, jillions in
> > property and other damage last fire season.
> >
> > now pg is in a severe liability pickle and madly trying to shovel
> > kitty litter over it.
> >
> > the high risk is putting stockholders and profit before public safety
> > and service.
> >
> It's also pretty clear that this is revenge pr0n for us getting all
> upset for them burning down paradise.
>
> I'm fairly certain that tech can help this problem along significantly,
> but that might cut into e-staff bonuses.
>
>
> https://wildfiremitigation.tees.tamus.edu/faqs/other-monitoring-benefits
>
>
> Mike
>
>

Re: California public safety power shutdowns

[Michael Thomas]

On 10/10/19 10:40 AM, Randy Bush wrote:

Pacific Gas & Electric and Southern California Edison have started
Public Safety Power Shut-offs (PSPS) in California wildfire high-risk
areas.

not exactly

the diablo winds are way north in the state.  but much of the power
for the big metros is bought from the hydros in the northwest and
has to come on lines through the windy area.

for some years, pg traded short term profits for long term risk by
not clearing the lines.  their long term risk cost lives, jillions in
property and other damage last fire season.

now pg is in a severe liability pickle and madly trying to shovel
kitty litter over it.

the high risk is putting stockholders and profit before public safety
and service.

It's also pretty clear that this is revenge pr0n for us getting all 
upset for them burning down paradise.


I'm fairly certain that tech can help this problem along significantly, 
but that might cut into e-staff bonuses.



https://wildfiremitigation.tees.tamus.edu/faqs/other-monitoring-benefits


Mike

Re: California public safety power shutdowns

[Mel Beckman]

Sean,

You might be thinking of the Western U.S. Energy Crisis of 2000 and 2001, also 
known as the Enron Debacle. Indeed PG’s hands were tied via regulation while 
Enron, “The Smartest Guys in the Room”, cheated the market, electrical 
customers, and investors out of billions of dollars.

The crisis was triggered by partial deregulation legislation instituted in 1996 
by the California Legislature (AB 1890). Enron exploited this deregulation to 
steal wealth via economic withholding and inflated price bidding in 
California's spot markets. In the meantime, PG (and SCE) were still fully 
regulated, and thus unable to react.

An amazing NANOG irony from the Enron disaster was that Switch Networks in Las 
Vegas bought up the original Enron data center for pennies on the dollar. I 
became one of their earliest customers. Following Enron’s bankruptcy, Rob Roy 
bought Enron's mammoth (for the time) DC in an auction attended only by Rob, 
for less than a million bucks. Eventually Switch expanded to control the 
biggest data center complex in the world, and paved the way for companies like 
Google and Amazon to build their own hyperscale DCs.

 -mel

On Oct 10, 2019, at 9:53 AM, Michael Thomas 
mailto:m...@mtcc.com>> wrote:



On 10/9/19 2:15 PM, William Herrin wrote:
On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 12:37 PM Sean Donelan 
mailto:s...@donelan.com>> wrote:
Pacific Gas & Electric and Southern California Edison have started Public
Safety Power Shut-offs (PSPS) in California wildfire high-risk areas.

Wasn't California in a similar mess 20 years ago when government regulation at 
the time also put PG in the position that they couldn't deliver the 
electricity their customers wanted? Something to do with hard limits on what 
PG could do but few limits on what third parties could do to it.


No.

Mike

Regards,
Bill Herrin


--
William Herrin
b...@herrin.us
https://bill.herrin.us/

Re: California public safety power shutdowns

[Randy Bush]

> Pacific Gas & Electric and Southern California Edison have started
> Public Safety Power Shut-offs (PSPS) in California wildfire high-risk
> areas.

not exactly

the diablo winds are way north in the state.  but much of the power
for the big metros is bought from the hydros in the northwest and
has to come on lines through the windy area.

for some years, pg traded short term profits for long term risk by
not clearing the lines.  their long term risk cost lives, jillions in
property and other damage last fire season.

now pg is in a severe liability pickle and madly trying to shovel
kitty litter over it.

the high risk is putting stockholders and profit before public safety
and service.

randy

Re: California public safety power shutdowns

[Michael Thomas]

On 10/9/19 2:15 PM, William Herrin wrote:
On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 12:37 PM Sean Donelan > wrote:


Pacific Gas & Electric and Southern California Edison have started
Public
Safety Power Shut-offs (PSPS) in California wildfire high-risk areas.


Wasn't California in a similar mess 20 years ago when government 
regulation at the time also put PG in the position that they 
couldn't deliver the electricity their customers wanted? Something to 
do with hard limits on what PG could do but few limits on what third 
parties could do to it.



No.

Mike



Regards,
Bill Herrin


--
William Herrin
b...@herrin.us 
https://bill.herrin.us/

Re: California public safety power shutdowns

[Mel Beckman]

Electrical arcing happens around the country. The difference is that 
California, through years of unwise restrictions on vegetation control, has 
millions of acres of dry fuel near these powerlines.

In the early 1990s, a series of restrictions were placed on logging in the West 
to protect the Spotted Owl. As it turned out, nature was more complicated than 
expected, with owl numbers continuing to decline—even after the California 
timber harvest plummeted— reportedly due to predation from other raptors. It’s 
not easy to manipulate Mother Nature :)

In the meantime, tree harvests fell below the growth rate in the 1990s, to now 
one-tenth of what it was in 1988 on Federal lands. Thus the enormous spike in 
fuel, that is the primary driver behind the massive fires.

Those of us who operate data facilities, such as radio vaults, on California 
mountaintops, have dealt with this problem as a growing threat over decades. I 
have antennas with melted radomes just from the radiant fire heat a half mile 
away. We’re constantly fighting the government to control vegetation overgrowth 
around our sites, and are often prevented from doing so.

 -mel

On Oct 10, 2019, at 12:07 AM, Radu-Adrian Feurdean 
mailto:na...@radu-adrian.feurdean.net>> wrote:

On Thu, Oct 10, 2019, at 08:02, Mel Beckman wrote:

The fire risk is from electrical transmission lines, not from end users
of electrical power. The underlying problem is that the State’s rules
for line separation were ill-considered, making it possible for
high-enough winds to cause “line slapping” and the resultant arcing
that ignite fires.

There is no reason to think that end users are of any particular risk,
and fuel delivery during a preemptive outage wouldn’t be impaired,

That looks like a situation that you don't often encounter elsewhere (where 
electricity - distribution, telecom and transport are not very far from one 
another).

Re: California public safety power shutdowns

[Radu-Adrian Feurdean]

On Thu, Oct 10, 2019, at 08:02, Mel Beckman wrote:

> The fire risk is from electrical transmission lines, not from end users 
> of electrical power. The underlying problem is that the State’s rules 
> for line separation were ill-considered, making it possible for 
> high-enough winds to cause “line slapping” and the resultant arcing 
> that ignite fires. 
> 
> There is no reason to think that end users are of any particular risk, 
> and fuel delivery during a preemptive outage wouldn’t be impaired, 

That looks like a situation that you don't often encounter elsewhere (where 
electricity - distribution, telecom and transport are not very far from one 
another).

Re: California public safety power shutdowns

[Sean Donelan]

On Thu, 10 Oct 2019, Radu-Adrian Feurdean wrote:
So, during a Power shut-off because of wild*fire* risk, operators are 
supposed to be able to re-charge batteries and supply generators with 
fuel (I suppose diesel, regular gas being even worse) in the affected 
areas ? Did I understand things wrong ?


I don't have an issue with shutting down power preventively in order to 
reduce an already high risk, but pretending that other people will keep 
their electricity-dependent equipment up, especially by providing 
flamable stuff - isn't this a huge WTF ?



The U.S. transmission grid is highly dependent on long-distance 
transmission wires passing through lots of dried out forests, brush, etc. 
The very high-voltage lines have clear-cut areas, the medium and lower 
voltages lines are less carefully maintained.


We love our cheap power generation plants in distant places, such as 
hydro-dams, large nuclear plants, wind and solar farms, and of course 
dirty-old coal plants in the desert far away from power consumers in 
cities and rural areas in between.  Yes, I know there are lots of 
proposals to re-invent the electric grid.


Many of the same reasons why Internet companies build big data 
centers in far away places?




The transmission lines also pass through a lot of difficult to reach and 
monitor terrain, so sparks and wildfires can get a big start before any 
response.  That's also why it will take days to turn the grid back on, 
because PG needs to inspect those lines to make sure they weren't 
damaged while powered down.


Damn squirriels and their gnawing teeth!



Small point power sources, such as tower site generators, are usually on 
non-flamable pads with cleared (gravel, etc) around them.  Different risk 
factors.


While wildfires have been started by things as simple as a driver pulling 
a hot car with a flat tire off the road into dry grass, wildfires caused 
by power transmission grid damage, malfunction and age are more common.


Hence liability judgements, bankruptcy proceedings, and so on...

Re: California public safety power shutdowns

[Mel Beckman]

Radu,

The fire risk is from electrical transmission lines, not from end users of 
electrical power. The underlying problem is that the State’s rules for line 
separation were ill-considered, making it possible for high-enough winds to 
cause “line slapping” and the resultant arcing that ignite fires. 

There is no reason to think that end users are of any particular risk, and fuel 
delivery during a preemptive outage wouldn’t be impaired, because roads will 
remain open. So, nobody need pretend anything. It’s just business as usual, 
until a fire actually starts.

 -mel 

> On Oct 9, 2019, at 10:52 PM, Radu-Adrian Feurdean 
>  wrote:
> 
>> On Wed, Oct 9, 2019, at 22:26, Sean Donelan wrote:
>> 
>> - Will this affect cellphone service?
>> 
>> Generally no because this is a power shutoff, without other disaster 
>> damage.  All major switching offices have backup generators for 24 
>> to 72 hours and nearly all cell towers and outside plant have backup 
>> batteries for 4 to 8 hours and/or backup generators.  Service providers 
>> should be able to re-charge batteries and refill generator tanks 
>> throughout the power shut-off.  Of course, if there is some other disaster 
>> during this time, there would be less resiliance in the network.
> 
> In a Previous e-mail:
> 
>> Public Safety Power Shut-offs (PSPS) in California wildfire high-risk areas.
> 
> So, during a Power shut-off because of wild*fire* risk, operators are 
> supposed to be able to re-charge batteries and supply generators with fuel (I 
> suppose diesel, regular gas being even worse) in the affected areas ? Did I 
> understand things wrong ?
> 
> I don't have an issue with shutting down power preventively in order to 
> reduce an already high risk, but pretending that other people will keep their 
> electricity-dependent equipment up, especially by providing flamable stuff - 
> isn't this a huge WTF ?

Re: California public safety power shutdowns

[Radu-Adrian Feurdean]

On Wed, Oct 9, 2019, at 22:26, Sean Donelan wrote:

> - Will this affect cellphone service?
> 
> Generally no because this is a power shutoff, without other disaster 
> damage.  All major switching offices have backup generators for 24 
> to 72 hours and nearly all cell towers and outside plant have backup 
> batteries for 4 to 8 hours and/or backup generators.  Service providers 
> should be able to re-charge batteries and refill generator tanks 
> throughout the power shut-off.  Of course, if there is some other disaster 
> during this time, there would be less resiliance in the network.

In a Previous e-mail:

>  Public Safety Power Shut-offs (PSPS) in California wildfire high-risk areas.

So, during a Power shut-off because of wild*fire* risk, operators are supposed 
to be able to re-charge batteries and supply generators with fuel (I suppose 
diesel, regular gas being even worse) in the affected areas ? Did I understand 
things wrong ?

I don't have an issue with shutting down power preventively in order to reduce 
an already high risk, but pretending that other people will keep their 
electricity-dependent equipment up, especially by providing flamable stuff - 
isn't this a huge WTF ?

Re: California public safety power shutdowns

[Sean Donelan]

The National Weather Service forcast changed a little this afternoon, 
with a later onset of high-winds this evening/early morning hours.


But like surfers on Florida coasts before a hurricane hits, some 
California folks are saying they don't see any wind -now-.  Of 
course, the forcast is about the future. But future weather fronts 
sometimes go north or go south, and meteorlogists' forecasts change.



Network related complaints with the California public safety power 
shut-offs.


It appears utilities and some local government web sites do not have 
enough capacity to handle the public seeking information about the 
blackouts.



https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/09/us/pge-shut-off-power-outage.html
PG’s website was down for many people, right when they needed it.

On Wednesday morning, Pacific Gas & Electric customers across Northern 
California said they were frustrated by difficulties getting information 
about blackouts and when power might be restored. Many blamed the utility 
for cutting power before they believed it was really necessary.

[...]
The utility’s website was working only intermittently — something Ms. 
Bennyi mentioned, too.

Re: California public safety power shutdowns

[Chuck Church]

Isn't this a topic for an outage list?  Or a power grid list?

Chuck


On Wed, Oct 9, 2019, 5:28 PM Sean Donelan  wrote:

> On Wed, 9 Oct 2019, William Herrin wrote:
> > Wasn't California in a similar mess 20 years ago when government
> regulation
> > at the time also put PG in the position that they couldn't deliver the
> > electricity their customers wanted? Something to do with hard limits on
> what
> > PG could do but few limits on what third parties could do to it.
>
> Yep, Enron (allegedly) used the California electric grid deregulation
> rules to arbitrage the system by causing false grid shortages and driving
> up wholesale electric prices.
>
> It caused rolling blackouts throughout the CA ISO region in 2000 and 2001.
>
>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/04/us/tapes-show-enron-arranged-plant-shutdown.html
>
>

Re: California public safety power shutdowns

[Sean Donelan]

On Wed, 9 Oct 2019, William Herrin wrote:

Wasn't California in a similar mess 20 years ago when government regulation
at the time also put PG in the position that they couldn't deliver the
electricity their customers wanted? Something to do with hard limits on what
PG could do but few limits on what third parties could do to it.


Yep, Enron (allegedly) used the California electric grid deregulation 
rules to arbitrage the system by causing false grid shortages and driving 
up wholesale electric prices.


It caused rolling blackouts throughout the CA ISO region in 2000 and 2001.

https://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/04/us/tapes-show-enron-arranged-plant-shutdown.html

RE: California public safety power shutdowns

[Michel Py]

> William Herrin wrote :
> Wasn't California in a similar mess 20 years ago when government regulation 
> at the time also put PG in the position that they couldn't deliver
> the electricity their customers wanted? Something to do with hard limits on 
> what PG could do but few limits on what third parties could do to it.

That, among other things, cost Gray Davis the governorship. He was recalled and 
Arnold Schwarzenegger elected.
The campain was called "total recall". Sacramento, home of the Governator.

That being said, I'm not sure we can call the mess similar. Ways back when, the 
political issue was about supply.

Michel.

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Re: California public safety power shutdowns

[William Herrin]

On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 12:37 PM Sean Donelan  wrote:

> Pacific Gas & Electric and Southern California Edison have started Public
> Safety Power Shut-offs (PSPS) in California wildfire high-risk areas.
>

Wasn't California in a similar mess 20 years ago when government regulation
at the time also put PG in the position that they couldn't deliver the
electricity their customers wanted? Something to do with hard limits on
what PG could do but few limits on what third parties could do to it.

Regards,
Bill Herrin


-- 
William Herrin
b...@herrin.us
https://bill.herrin.us/

Re: California public safety power shutdowns

[Sean Donelan]

On Wed, 9 Oct 2019, Sean Donelan wrote:

- Will this affect cellphone service?
[...]
Remember, Cable and DSL VOIP and in-home wireless phones need electric power 
to operate.  There are fewer and fewer copper-fed POTS lines with power from 
the telephone central office.



Thanks to the person for correcting me.  If you use WiFi or Pico-cell 
repeaters in your home or office building for mobile phone service, they 
will likely not work during power shut-offs.


I was referring only to cellular service from cell towers on you mobile 
phones and mobile devices.


Non-experts in RF cellular technology may not always know which 
transmission technology their cell phone is using at any particular 
location.  The mobile phone will usually switch to other avaiable signals. 
But you might be using a pico-cell or repeater in a building because there 
are no other cellular signals.


In those cases, you won't have cellphone service.

Re: California public safety power shutdowns

[Sean Donelan]

Questions & some answers...

- Will this affect public water supply?

Generally no.  Public water supplies have backup generators.  Since 
this is only a power shut-off, and no other damage or disaster to the 
water system, public water systems will operate as normal.  Nevertheless, 
its always a good idea to have 3 to 7 days bottled water stored for 
emergencies.



- Will this affect cellphone service?

Generally no because this is a power shutoff, without other disaster 
damage.  All major switching offices have backup generators for 24 
to 72 hours and nearly all cell towers and outside plant have backup 
batteries for 4 to 8 hours and/or backup generators.  Service providers 
should be able to re-charge batteries and refill generator tanks 
throughout the power shut-off.  Of course, if there is some other disaster 
during this time, there would be less resiliance in the network.


During wildfire, only a couple of cell towers were damaged by fire.  Most 
of the cellular outages were due to damage to backhaul fiber, i.e. trees 
fallling on lines and melted fiber cables.


For longer power outages, you can recharge your cell phone with an 
external battery or solar charger can help.


Remember, Cable and DSL VOIP and in-home wireless phones need electric 
power to operate.  There are fewer and fewer copper-fed POTS lines with 
power from the telephone central office.




- What about CB radio?

California Highway Patrol does not regularly monitor CB radio anymore, but 
does listen to Channel 9 during disasters.  I haven't seen CHPs plan for 
power shut-offs, but in case of an emergency always try calling 9-1-1 
first.


Its always a good idea to have a portable, battery-operated AM/FM radio 
and fresh batteries.  If you listen to the radio in your car, do not run 
the engine inside the garage.  All combustion engines should only be used 
outside.


If you have a license, Amateur Radio (ham radio) operators are active in 
the power shut-off areas.

Re: California public safety power shutdowns

[Fred Baker]

On Oct 9, 2019, at 12:36 PM, Sean Donelan  wrote:
> Pacific Gas & Electric and Southern California Edison have started Public 
> Safety Power Shut-offs (PSPS) in California wildfire high-risk areas.
> 
> Shut-offs are taking place in three phases. PG began shutoffs at midnight 
> in Northern California and the North Bay counties, while the rest of the Bay 
> Area is scheduled to begin losing power in waves at noon. A possible third 
> phase will occur later in the day in the southernmost parts of the PG 
> service area in the San Joaquin Valley and Central Coast.
> 
> Southern California Edison said it's considering cutting power to more than 
> 100,000 customers in eight counties. The utilities haven't said how many 
> people the outages will affect in all.

Indeed. Meanwhile, I'm in Walnut Creek, and estimates of wind velocity here 
vary from zero to five knots.

California public safety power shutdowns

[Sean Donelan]

Pacific Gas & Electric and Southern California Edison have started Public 
Safety Power Shut-offs (PSPS) in California wildfire high-risk areas.


Shut-offs are taking place in three phases. PG began shutoffs at 
midnight in Northern California and the North Bay counties, while the rest 
of the Bay Area is scheduled to begin losing power in waves at noon. A 
possible third phase will occur later in the day in the southernmost parts 
of the PG service area in the San Joaquin Valley and Central Coast.


Southern California Edison said it's considering cutting power to more 
than 100,000 customers in eight counties. The utilities haven't said how 
many people the outages will affect in all.