Re: IP addresses are now assets
The British have been using the correct six character word length for humour ad memoriam. Christian de Larrinaga On 4 Dec 2011, at 15:15, Gary Buhrmaster gary.buhrmas...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Dec 3, 2011 at 18:18, David Barak thegame...@yahoo.com wrote: Should the HAC be expected to manage the transition to HumorV6? I am not that familiar with Humorv6. Has Hv6 had sufficient operational input, or is it based on a philosophically pure redesign of humor making it theoretically funny, but in practice most of the humor falls flat. Does it require a redesign of the existing infrastructure (i.e. comedy clubs) in order to get the joke? And, of course, is the British implementation of HumourV6 compatible the American implementation of HumorV6? Gary
Re: IP addresses are now assets
- Original Message - From: Owen DeLong o...@delong.com On Dec 5, 2011, at 12:27 AM, cdel.firsthand.net wrote: The British have been using the correct six character word length for humour ad memoriam. Extra and unnecessary characters do not a correct word make. The u is silent. Like the 3 in Hen3ry. Cheers, -- jr 'Stein with an e-i and Styne with a y.' a -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink j...@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth Associates http://baylink.pitas.com 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274
Re: IP addresses are now assets
On Dec 2, 2011, at 1:55 AM, Paul Graydon wrote: On 12/1/2011 7:20 PM, John Curran wrote: Wayne - Your subject line (IP addresses are now assets) could mislead folks, so I'd advise waiting to review the actual sale order once approved by the court before making summary conclusions. ARIN holds that IP address space is not property but is managed as a public resource. Address holders may have certain rights (such as the right to be the registrant of the address block, the right to transfer the registration, etc.) but these rights intersect with additional rights to the same address blocks which are held by the community (such as the right of visibility to the public portion of registrations). The registry policies (set by the community via open and transparent processes) govern the intersection and application of these rights. For this reason, ARIN works with parties transferring their rights in IP address space to make sure that the documents reflect that sales of rights are subject to the transfer policies in the region, including in this particular case. A party may transfer their rights to IP addresses, and such rights may have value to an estate, but this does not make the IP addresses property per se. Thanks! /John Why'd you have to spoil the fun? You're supposed to wait a few days, let the pointless righteous fury build up and then step in and try to do the firefighting thing. It's must have been all but a month since the last time this flared up, it's surely about time it flared up again? Wouldn't want anyone to miss out on the fun ;) That's okay... it will happen anyway. ;-) For those who are following this matter, there are some more complete articles now (including pointers to the court documents filed) - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/12/05/borders_flogs_ipv4_addys/ http://domainincite.com/docs/borders-cerner-ipv4.pdf FYI, /John John Curran President and CEO ARIN
Re: IP addresses are now assets
On Sat, Dec 3, 2011 at 18:18, David Barak thegame...@yahoo.com wrote: Should the HAC be expected to manage the transition to HumorV6? I am not that familiar with Humorv6. Has Hv6 had sufficient operational input, or is it based on a philosophically pure redesign of humor making it theoretically funny, but in practice most of the humor falls flat. Does it require a redesign of the existing infrastructure (i.e. comedy clubs) in order to get the joke? And, of course, is the British implementation of HumourV6 compatible the American implementation of HumorV6? Gary
Re: IP addresses are now assets
- Original Message - From: Robert Bonomi bon...@mail.r-bonomi.com if you're going to do a thing, do it RIGHT!! Anything worth doing, is worth over-doing. I love a good self-referential posting; don't you? Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink j...@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth Associates http://baylink.pitas.com 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274
Re: IP addresses are now assets
On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 20:01, bmann...@vacation.karoshi.com wrote: . Suggestion received and needing confirmation: That ARIN or a party it designates assign one or more sense(s) of humour to the CEO. I believe this suggestion suffers from being too non-specific, and could lead to unintended consequences. ARIN could, for example, assign John a slapstick comedy sense of humor and all the chairs at the next meeting would have a whoopee cushion. And do you really want John taking on the role of a Don Rickles as an insult comedian? And, of course 87% percentage of the population believes that they already have an above average sense of humor (and 62% of the population believes any statement with a statistic in it). I would recommend that this suggestion be revised with community input into what type of humor can achieve a community consensus. Gary
Re: IP addresses are now assets
It's hard to sustain that kind of commitment... so we need to form a Humor Advisory Committee. Their job would be to determine which behaviors the community finds most humorous. When the community doesn't produce enough material, the comedy HAC would write jokes on our behalf (for adoption by John following legal assessment, board approval, etc). Cheers, -Benson On Dec 3, 2011, at 2:26 PM, Gary Buhrmaster wrote: On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 20:01, bmann...@vacation.karoshi.com wrote: . Suggestion received and needing confirmation: That ARIN or a party it designates assign one or more sense(s) of humour to the CEO. I believe this suggestion suffers from being too non-specific, and could lead to unintended consequences. ARIN could, for example, assign John a slapstick comedy sense of humor and all the chairs at the next meeting would have a whoopee cushion. And do you really want John taking on the role of a Don Rickles as an insult comedian? And, of course 87% percentage of the population believes that they already have an above average sense of humor (and 62% of the population believes any statement with a statistic in it). I would recommend that this suggestion be revised with community input into what type of humor can achieve a community consensus. Gary
Re: IP addresses are now assets
Should the HAC be expected to manage the transition to HumorV6? David
Re: IP addresses are now assets
From: David Barak thegame...@yahoo.com Should the HAC be expected to manage the transition to HumorV6? BEFORE that is introduced, one needs a mailing-list designated for discussion of the potential problems an dangers associated therewith, similar to the ACM's discussion list on computer technoogy. May I propose that it be called the Humor-esque Digest. An approprite 'publisher' would be the I.S.P.F.[1], with the editor required to use Alfred E. Neuman as his professional psuedonym. if you're going to do a thing, do it RIGHT!! Anything worth doing, is worth over-doing. Footnotes: [1] International 'Save the Pun' Foundation -- yes, they -really- exist.
Re: IP addresses are now assets
valdis.kletni...@vt.edu writes: Would it be correct to summarize the ARIN position as It's murkier than Cerner makes it out to be, and some lawyers are gonna get stinking filthy rich litigating this one? :) In any litigation, Counsel always wins. I often remind myself that there's still time to go to law school. :-) -r
Re: IP addresses are now assets
On Dec 2, 2011, at 2:48 AM, valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote: Would it be correct to summarize the ARIN position as It's murkier than Cerner makes it out to be, and some lawyers are gonna get stinking filthy rich litigating this one? It's pretty simple: you can write a contract to transfer IP addresses in accordance with policy, and we are now seeing most parties come to us in advance either to prequalify or make the sale conditional on approval. FYI, /John John Curran President and CEO ARIN
Re: IP addresses are now assets
Hi John, I'm sorry to be thick, but can you explain right of visibility to the public portion of registrations a little further?. Under what circumstances might ARIN deny approval? j On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 7:42 AM, John Curran jcur...@arin.net wrote: On Dec 2, 2011, at 2:48 AM, valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote: Would it be correct to summarize the ARIN position as It's murkier than Cerner makes it out to be, and some lawyers are gonna get stinking filthy rich litigating this one? It's pretty simple: you can write a contract to transfer IP addresses in accordance with policy, and we are now seeing most parties come to us in advance either to prequalify or make the sale conditional on approval. FYI, /John John Curran President and CEO ARIN -- --- Joly MacFie 218 565 9365 Skype:punkcast WWWhatsup NYC - http://wwwhatsup.com http://pinstand.com - http://punkcast.com VP (Admin) - ISOC-NY - http://isoc-ny.org -- -
Re: IP addresses are now assets
On Dec 2, 2011, at 7:57 AM, Joly MacFie wrote: Hi John, I'm sorry to be thick, but can you explain right of visibility to the public portion of registrations a little further?. Under what circumstances might ARIN deny approval? Joly - Requests are processed according the transfer policies https://www.arin.net/policy/nrpm.html#eight. If a request doesn't meet the transfer policy (e.g. the sale is not to an actual entity that has an operational need for address space or it is more space than needed for the next twelve months), then it will be denied. If you think that ARIN should operate under different policies in the management of the IP address space in the region, you can submit a policy proposal to change the policy as desired: https://www.arin.net/participate/how_to_participate.html Thanks! /John John Curran President and CEO ARIN
RE: IP addresses are now assets
-Original Message- From: John Curran [mailto:jcur...@arin.net] Joly - Requests are processed according the transfer policies https://www.arin.net/policy/nrpm.html#eight. If a request doesn't meet the transfer policy (e.g. the sale is not to an actual entity that has an operational need for address space or it is more space than needed for the next twelve months), then it will be denied. Presumably organisations will check this and fake the appropriate paperwork and come up with some plausible excuse for requiring the space within the next 12 months BEFORE they part with their cash. It would be most amusing for somebody to buy space, hand over the money and then have ARIN deny the transfer. So I do wonder, how is this policy is being enforced and will ARIN be investigating this current news item? -- Leigh Porter __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. For more information please visit http://www.symanteccloud.com __
Re: IP addresses are now assets
On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 03:52, Robert E. Seastrom r...@seastrom.com wrote: In any litigation, Counsel always wins. I often remind myself that there's still time to go to law school. :-) It may be too late. The glory days of getting a JD and then racking in the money are apparently over. I remember reading recently (in the NYTimes?) that newly minted lawyers are having a hard time finding employment, as the customers of the law firms are pushing back on the ever higher fees, and the firms are responding by a combination of outsourcing some research, and using non-lawyers for other work, reducing the demand for (and hiring of) new lawyers. Exceptions noted for the Harvard grads due to the OBN.
Re: IP addresses are now assets
In a message written on Thu, Dec 01, 2011 at 11:04:23PM -0500, Michael R. Wayne wrote: After negotiating with multiple prospective buyers, Cerner Corp. agreed to buy the Internet addresses for $12 each. Other bids were as low as $1.50 each, according to a bankruptcy court filing. Someone should tell Cerner Corp you can still get them for free, and thus they overpaid by oh, $12 an address! -- Leo Bicknell - bickn...@ufp.org - CCIE 3440 PGP keys at http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/ pgpaqy8ijGz8l.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: IP addresses are now assets
On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 8:23 AM, Leigh Porter leigh.por...@ukbroadband.com wrote: -Original Message- From: John Curran [mailto:jcur...@arin.net] Joly - Requests are processed according the transfer policies https://www.arin.net/policy/nrpm.html#eight. If a request doesn't meet the transfer policy (e.g. the sale is not to an actual entity that has an operational need for address space or it is more space than needed for the next twelve months), then it will be denied. Presumably organisations will check this and fake the appropriate paperwork and come up with some plausible excuse for requiring the space within the next 12 months BEFORE they part with their cash. It would be most amusing for somebody to buy space, hand over the money and then have ARIN deny the transfer. So I do wonder, how is this policy is being enforced and will ARIN be investigating this current news item? ARIN, on many occasions, has stated that they have no authority over legacy address space. They made this declaration in the Kamens/sex.com case. I haven't heard that anything has changed since then. Nortel/MSN was the first, big, public transaction. There have been others prior to Nortel. There will be more after Borders. Circuit City: http://www.slideshare.net/Streambank/offering-memo-ip-addresses-92111final Best. -M
Re: IP addresses are now assets
On Dec 2, 2011, at 8:23 AM, Leigh Porter wrote: So I do wonder, how is this policy is being enforced and will ARIN be investigating this current news item? Leigh - No investigation is needed, as I already noted the parties have sought out ARIN in advance. Note that original sales solicitation states: Sale may be subject to compliance with certain requirements of the American Registry of Internet Numbers (ARIN) and the court materials to date reflect this. FYI, /John John Curran President and CEO ARIN
Re: IP addresses are now assets
On Dec 1, 2011, at 23:04, Michael R. Wayne wa...@staff.msen.com wrote: After negotiating with multiple prospective buyers, Cerner Corp. agreed to buy the Internet addresses for $12 each. Other bids were as low as $1.50 each, according to a bankruptcy court filing. Clearly the addresses with the last octet of 00 and ff should be discounted, since no one wants to be zero, and ff just seems to get everyone's attention. -cjp
Re: IP addresses are now assets
I have acres on the moon that are up for sale. On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 11:18 AM, Christopher J. Pilkington c...@0x1.net wrote: On Dec 1, 2011, at 23:04, Michael R. Wayne wa...@staff.msen.com wrote: After negotiating with multiple prospective buyers, Cerner Corp. agreed to buy the Internet addresses for $12 each. Other bids were as low as $1.50 each, according to a bankruptcy court filing. Clearly the addresses with the last octet of 00 and ff should be discounted, since no one wants to be zero, and ff just seems to get everyone's attention. -cjp
Re: IP addresses are now assets
On Dec 2, 2011, at 10:16 AM, Martin Hannigan wrote: ARIN, on many occasions, has stated that they have no authority over legacy address space. They made this declaration in the Kamens/sex.com case. I haven't heard that anything has changed since then. Martin - ARIN will maintain the registry in accordance with community policy for all addresses and that includes legacy address space. Thanks, /John John Curran President and CEO ARIN
Re: IP addresses are now assets
On Fri, 2 Dec 2011, Leo Bicknell wrote: In a message written on Thu, Dec 01, 2011 at 11:04:23PM -0500, Michael R. Wayne wrote: After negotiating with multiple prospective buyers, Cerner Corp. agreed to buy the Internet addresses for $12 each. Other bids were as low as $1.50 each, according to a bankruptcy court filing. Someone should tell Cerner Corp you can still get them for free, and thus they overpaid by oh, $12 an address! I'm waiting for someone to come back and balk at $12/address, and try to reduce the number of addresses they buy, forgetting that pesky powers-of-two business: In the interest of containing the cost of the deal, XYZ Corp has agreed to buy 27,000 addresses instead of the original 65,536. That will be a definite facepalm moment. jms
RE: IP addresses are now assets
-Original Message- From: Justin M. Streiner [mailto:strei...@cluebyfour.org] Sent: 02 December 2011 19:26 To: Leo Bicknell Cc: NANOG Subject: Re: IP addresses are now assets On Fri, 2 Dec 2011, Leo Bicknell wrote: In a message written on Thu, Dec 01, 2011 at 11:04:23PM -0500, Michael R. Wayne wrote: After negotiating with multiple prospective buyers, Cerner Corp. agreed to buy the Internet addresses for $12 each. Other bids were as low as $1.50 each, according to a bankruptcy court filing. Someone should tell Cerner Corp you can still get them for free, and thus they overpaid by oh, $12 an address! I'm waiting for someone to come back and balk at $12/address, and try to reduce the number of addresses they buy, forgetting that pesky powers- of-two business: In the interest of containing the cost of the deal, XYZ Corp has agreed to buy 27,000 addresses instead of the original 65,536. That will be a definite facepalm moment. jms So about a /18 a /19 a /21 and a /23 then ;-) -- Leigh __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. For more information please visit http://www.symanteccloud.com __
Re: IP addresses are now assets
On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 10:20 PM, John Curran jcur...@arin.net wrote:[cut] Your subject line (IP addresses are now assets) could mislead folks, [cut] ianal, but the treatment of ip addresses by the bankruptcy court would tend to agree with the definition of an asset from webster's new world law dictionary (http://law.yourdictionary.com/asset): Any property or right that is owned by a person or entity and has monetary value. See also liability. All of the property of a person or entity or its total value; entries on a balance sheet listing such property. intangible asset An asset that is not a physical thing and only evidenced by a written document. the addresses are being exchanged for money, in order to pay a debt...how is this not a sale of an asset? ARIN holds that IP address space is not property but is managed as a public resource. imho, if it were truly a 'public resource' and managed as such, it would be returned to the appropriate rir for reassignment, rather than being auctioned off to the highest bidder by a (commodities) broker...administrative and processing fees are one thing, but this is pure commoditisation of a so-called 'public resource' by speculators. i am, unfortunately, in the minority on this topic On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 8:33 AM, John Curran jcur...@arin.net wrote: [cut] Sale may be subject to compliance with certain requirements of the American Registry of Internet Numbers (ARIN) and the court materials to date reflect this. MAY versus WILL -- rfc2119 contains a pretty clear definition of each, which i am pretty sure echoes legal precedent..but again, ianal, so, ymmv, etc, etc the speculative market exists and is growing, why do certain factions of the community keep trying to pretend that it doesn't? /joshua
Re: IP addresses are now assets
--- jsah...@gmail.com wrote: the speculative market exists and is growing, why do certain factions of the community keep trying to pretend that it doesn't? --- Because they're busy getting ipv6 up and that will make these things less important? ;-) scott
Re: IP addresses are now assets
On Fri, 02 Dec 2011 14:37:29 -0500, joshua sahala jsah...@gmail.com wrote: Any property or right that is owned by a person or entity and has monetary value. See also liability. If it was a RIR assignment, it's not owned. It's more akin to a lease. That said, there are documented rules/proceedures for transfering assignments. I'm not entirely sure they apply here. Legacy assignments are, obviously, a very different story. --Ricky
RE: IP addresses are now assets
I have a boatload of IPv6 addresses I'm willing to sell at the low, low price of $.01 each. -Original Message- From: Christopher J. Pilkington [mailto:c...@0x1.net] Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 12:18 PM To: Michael R. Wayne Cc: NANOG Subject: Re: IP addresses are now assets On Dec 1, 2011, at 23:04, Michael R. Wayne wa...@staff.msen.com wrote: After negotiating with multiple prospective buyers, Cerner Corp. agreed to buy the Internet addresses for $12 each. Other bids were as low as $1.50 each, according to a bankruptcy court filing. Clearly the addresses with the last octet of 00 and ff should be discounted, since no one wants to be zero, and ff just seems to get everyone's attention. -cjp
RE: IP addresses are now assets
From nanog-bounces+bonomi=mail.r-bonomi@nanog.org Fri Dec 2 13:29:31 2011 From: Leigh Porter leigh.por...@ukbroadband.com To: Justin M. Streiner strei...@cluebyfour.org, Leo Bicknell bickn...@ufp.org Subject: RE: IP addresses are now assets Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 19:29:43 + Cc: NANOG nanog@nanog.org -Original Message- From: Justin M. Streiner [mailto:strei...@cluebyfour.org] Sent: 02 December 2011 19:26 To: Leo Bicknell Cc: NANOG Subject: Re: IP addresses are now assets On Fri, 2 Dec 2011, Leo Bicknell wrote: In a message written on Thu, Dec 01, 2011 at 11:04:23PM -0500, Michael R. Wayne wrote: After negotiating with multiple prospective buyers, Cerner Corp. agreed to buy the Internet addresses for $12 each. Other bids were as low as $1.50 each, according to a bankruptcy court filing. Someone should tell Cerner Corp you can still get them for free, and thus they overpaid by oh, $12 an address! I'm waiting for someone to come back and balk at $12/address, and try to reduce the number of addresses they buy, forgetting that pesky powers- of-two business: In the interest of containing the cost of the deal, XYZ Corp has agreed to buy 27,000 addresses instead of the original 65,536. That will be a definite facepalm moment. jms So about a /18 a /19 a /21 and a /23 then ;-) Methinks it ought to be restricted to some combination of a /17, a /19, a /23, a /29, and a /31. It's all 'prime' number-space, after all. groan.
Re: IP addresses are now assets
On Fri, Dec 02, 2011 at 12:37:29PM -0700, joshua sahala wrote: On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 10:20 PM, John Curran jcur...@arin.net wrote:[cut] Your subject line (IP addresses are now assets) could mislead folks, [cut] ianal, but the treatment of ip addresses by the bankruptcy court would tend to agree with the definition of an asset from webster's new world law dictionary (http://law.yourdictionary.com/asset): Any property or right that is owned by a person or entity and has monetary value. See also liability. All of the property of a person or entity or its total value; entries on a balance sheet listing such property. intangible asset An asset that is not a physical thing and only evidenced by a written document. the addresses are being exchanged for money, in order to pay a debt...how is this not a sale of an asset? I guess I'm in the same minority in that I agree with you. Note that Asset !== Property. The IP addresses in question are unquestionably Assets (albeit Restricted assets or hard-to-value assets), but not so evidently Property. So, the original subject line IP addresses are now assets seems accurate; it does not say IP addresses are now property. Conflation of the two terms is in the mind of the reader, and perhaps that's what John Curran was seeking to clarify. -- Henry Yen Aegis Information Systems, Inc. Senior Systems Programmer Hicksville, New York
RE: IP addresses are now assets
John Lightfoot jlightf...@gmail.com wrote; I have a boatload of IPv6 addresses I'm willing to sell at the low, low price of $.01 each. Good for you. _I_ have somewhat over 17.8 million IPv4 addresses, in 3 large blocks, for which I will sell my 'right to use', at half your offering price.
Re: IP addresses are now assets
On 2 December 2011 20:01, Henry Yen he...@aegisinfosys.com wrote: On Fri, Dec 02, 2011 at 12:37:29PM -0700, joshua sahala wrote: On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 10:20 PM, John Curran jcur...@arin.net wrote:[cut] Your subject line (IP addresses are now assets) could mislead folks, [cut] ianal, but the treatment of ip addresses by the bankruptcy court would tend to agree with the definition of an asset from webster's new world law dictionary (http://law.yourdictionary.com/asset): Any property or right that is owned by a person or entity and has monetary value. See also liability. All of the property of a person or entity or its total value; entries on a balance sheet listing such property. intangible asset An asset that is not a physical thing and only evidenced by a written document. the addresses are being exchanged for money, in order to pay a debt...how is this not a sale of an asset? I guess I'm in the same minority in that I agree with you. Note that Asset !== Property. The IP addresses in question are unquestionably Assets (albeit Restricted assets or hard-to-value assets), but not so evidently Property. So, the original subject line IP addresses are now assets seems accurate; it does not say IP addresses are now property. Conflation of the two terms is in the mind of the reader, and perhaps that's what John Curran was seeking to clarify. What about land? it's a public resource that you've paid money to someone in exchange for transferring their rights over that public resource to you. That said, I think in the case of land shortages there is an argument that land no longer being used by someone should be freed up for use by new people. Although i'm not entirely sure how to justify a instead of selling it you have to return it so it can be allocated to whoever has a need for it policy without also justifying the same for my house, which has spare rooms that I don't need. - Mike
Re: IP addresses are now assets
Mike Jones m...@mikejones.in wrote on 12/02/2011 03:14:58 PM: What about land? it's a public resource that you've paid money to someone in exchange for transferring their rights over that public resource to you. Land is private property. Joe
Re: IP addresses are now assets
In a message written on Fri, Dec 02, 2011 at 03:28:22PM -0500, Joe Loiacono wrote: Mike Jones m...@mikejones.in wrote on 12/02/2011 03:14:58 PM: What about land? it's a public resource that you've paid money to someone in exchange for transferring their rights over that public resource to you. Land is private property. Some land in some countries is private property. -- Leo Bicknell - bickn...@ufp.org - CCIE 3440 PGP keys at http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/ pgpxkFNXnHzF7.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: IP addresses are now assets
On Fri, Dec 02, 2011 at 12:37:29PM -0700, joshua sahala wrote: Any property or right that is owned by a person or entity and has monetary value. See also liability. All of the property of a person or entity or its total value; entries on a balance sheet listing such property. intangible asset An asset that is not a physical thing and only evidenced by a written document. On 2 December 2011 20:01, Henry Yen he...@aegisinfosys.com wrote: Note that Asset !== Property. reread the definition: an asset is property. an intangible asset is merely one type of asset. On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 1:14 PM, Mike Jones m...@mikejones.in wrote: What about land? it's a public resource that you've paid money to someone in exchange for transferring their rights over that public resource to you. land is a tangible asset, and has largely been privatised when it comes to ownership. you can lease public lands, but when your lease ends, it is returned to the owner (the government), and any improvements (if allowed at all) are torn down or given over. sometimes you can sublet your lease, but this doesn't make it a new contract or change the original terms. That said, I think in the case of land shortages there is an argument that land no longer being used by someone should be freed up for use by new people. this starts drifting into a philosophical debate on privatisation and the use, control, and management of 'the commons' (land, water, air, etc.) and something which is largely (further) offtopic for this list. but, i digress...and the various dead horses here have all been beaten beyond recognition /joshua -- A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. - Douglas Adams -
Re: IP addresses are now assets
On Dec 2, 2011, at 2:37 PM, joshua sahala wrote: intangible asset An asset that is not a physical thing and only evidenced by a written document. the addresses are being exchanged for money, in order to pay a debt...how is this not a sale of an asset? Joshua - Rights to addresses (in the registration database) are being transferred for money. Those rights may indeed be assets (although that's likely a question better suited for lawyers) Perhaps Rights to IP addresses can be sold! would be a better title, but it's not exactly newsworthy since we've all known that for some time: http://www.circleid.com/posts/psst_interested_in_some_lightly_used_ip_addresses/ ARIN holds that IP address space is not property but is managed as a public resource. imho, if it were truly a 'public resource' and managed as such, it would be returned to the appropriate rir for reassignment, rather than being auctioned off to the highest bidder by a (commodities) broker... Agreed. However, attempting fairly to administrate a resource as it becomes increasingly scarce is quite problematic, and yet there is a real need emerging among network operators for IPv4 space as the regional free pool diminishes. The limited market mechanism provides a motivation for getting these resources back into use, while still taking the communities need for accurate record keeping and avoidance of deaggregation into consideration. administrative and processing fees are one thing, but this is pure commoditisation of a so-called 'public resource' by speculators. i am, unfortunately, in the minority on this topic It shouldn't be speculators, unless they're particularly skilled at faking the operational need for the space they're obtaining and willing to risk losing the entire investment if detected. On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 8:33 AM, John Curran jcur...@arin.net wrote: [cut] Sale may be subject to compliance with certain requirements of the American Registry of Internet Numbers (ARIN) and the court materials to date reflect this. MAY versus WILL -- rfc2119 contains a pretty clear definition of each, which i am pretty sure echoes legal precedent..but again, ianal, so, ymmv, etc, etc I referenced that language because it is in the public solicitation. Actual legal documents on transfers to date have been quite explicit on this point. the speculative market exists and is growing, why do certain factions of the community keep trying to pretend that it doesn't? Again, there is a limited market emerging in IPv4 address space, one in which the transfer recipient must demonstrate an operational need. Attempting to use the transfer policy to speculate would be rather adventurous (since one must agree contractually to compliance with the registry policies and to the veracity of the information on the transfer request...) That doesn't mean it won't happen, only that we hope that it will not get materially in the way of service providers who do need additional address space. FYI, /John John Curran President and CEO ARIN
Re: IP addresses are now assets
On Fri, 02 Dec 2011 12:37:29 MST, joshua sahala said: the speculative market exists and is growing, why do certain factions of the community keep trying to pretend that it doesn't? I'm sure at least some of those factions pretend it doesn't because admitting it does would be a game changer. I'm sure that *somebody* has a business model that assumes the non-existence of the speculatie market. And everybody knows that you never admit the business model is crap until *after* the IPO. ;) pgpYP1PfPBalF.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: IP addresses are now assets
On Dec 2, 2011, at 2:56 PM, valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote: On Fri, 02 Dec 2011 12:37:29 MST, joshua sahala said: the speculative market exists and is growing, why do certain factions of the community keep trying to pretend that it doesn't? I'm sure at least some of those factions pretend it doesn't because admitting it does would be a game changer. I'm sure that *somebody* has a business model that assumes the non-existence of the speculatie market. And everybody knows that you never admit the business model is crap until *after* the IPO. ;) I admit it exists, but, I think it is currently relatively small and would hate to provide it any additional incentives to grow. I think it has the potential to be very harmful to the IPv4 internet in general. As long as it is relatively small, it's like a mosquito. Turning it into a B-17 would be bad. Just my $0.02. Owen
Re: IP addresses are now assets
On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 10:04 PM, Michael R. Wayne wa...@staff.msen.com wrote: From http://www.detnews.com/article/20111201/BIZ/112010483/1361/Borders-selling-Internet-addresses-for-$786-000 Borders selling Internet addresses for $786,000 Your IP address is an asset like the office you rent to setup a business in. Happening to be the occupant gives you certain rights, but it doesn't automatically make the space some property that the occupant automatically gains ownership of. If your lease permits it, you can probably re-sell your right to occupy the space, so long as the lease says you can do that, and you follow all the terms and requirements agreed upon. So there's no issue with Borders selling addresses, so long as the proper policies are being followed for transfer of addresses. What underlies all the occupants of IP address space, are agreements with IP address registries, and the community, to provide unique usage of IP addresses. The existence of unique IP addresses exist only because of the community and the address registries' efforts; the community owns the uniqueness of IP addresses, which is a kind of intangible property, because they built this, and you own what you build. That is... uniqueness of IP address entries in an address registry you operate doesn't happen by accident. -- -JH
Re: IP addresses are now assets
- Original Message - From: John Curran jcur...@arin.net On Dec 2, 2011, at 2:48 AM, valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote: Would it be correct to summarize the ARIN position as It's murkier than Cerner makes it out to be, and some lawyers are gonna get stinking filthy rich litigating this one? It's pretty simple: you can write a contract to transfer IP addresses in accordance with policy, and we are now seeing most parties come to us in advance either to prequalify or make the sale conditional on approval. No, Valdis, the ARIN position is if we wanted Curran to have a sense of humor, we'd have issued him one. :-) Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink j...@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth Associates http://baylink.pitas.com 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274
Re: IP addresses are now assets
On Dec 2, 2011, at 7:44 PM, Jay Ashworth wrote: No, Valdis, the ARIN position is if we wanted Curran to have a sense of humor, we'd have issued him one. Changes in this area may be proposed via the ARIN Consultation and Suggestion Process - https://www.arin.net/participate/acsp/index.html ;-) /John John Curran President and CEO ARIN
Re: IP addresses are now assets
On Sat, Dec 03, 2011 at 03:33:55AM +, John Curran wrote: On Dec 2, 2011, at 7:44 PM, Jay Ashworth wrote: No, Valdis, the ARIN position is if we wanted Curran to have a sense of humor, we'd have issued him one. Changes in this area may be proposed via the ARIN Consultation and Suggestion Process - https://www.arin.net/participate/acsp/index.html ;-) /John John Curran President and CEO ARIN Mischief Managed. The text of the submitted suggestion is included below. Sincerely, Communications and Member Services American Registry for Internet Numbers (ARIN) Suggestion received and needing confirmation: That ARIN or a party it designates assign one or more sense(s) of humour to the CEO. The ARIN Consultation and Suggestion Process (ACSP) is available at: http://www.arin.net/participate/acsp/index.html /bill
Re: IP addresses are now assets
Ah... *this* is the Whacky Weekend thread. -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. bmann...@vacation.karoshi.com wrote: On Sat, Dec 03, 2011 at 03:33:55AM +, John Curran wrote: On Dec 2, 2011, at 7:44 PM, Jay Ashworth wrote: No, Valdis, the ARIN position is if we wanted Curran to have a sense of humor, we'd have issued him one. Changes in this area may be proposed via the ARIN Consultation and Suggestion Process - https://www.arin.net/participate/acsp/index.html; ;-) /John John Curran President and CEO ARIN Mischief Managed. The text of the submitted suggestion is included below. Sincerely, Communications and Member Services American Registry for Internet Numbers (ARIN) _ Suggestion received and needing confirmation: That ARIN or a party it designates assign one or more sense(s) of humour to the CEO. _ The ARIN Consultation and Suggestion Process (ACSP) is available at: http://www.arin.net/participate/acsp/index.html /bill
IP addresses are now assets
From http://www.detnews.com/article/20111201/BIZ/112010483/1361/Borders-selling-Internet-addresses-for-$786-000 Borders selling Internet addresses for $786,000 Bill Rochelle/ Bloomberg News Borders Group Inc., the liquidated Ann Arbor-based bookseller, will generate $786,000 by selling Internet addresses, thanks to the current shortage. In September, Borders was authorized to sell most of the intellectual property to Barnes Noble Inc. for $13.9 million. Borders' block of 65,536 IPv4 Internet protocol numbers weren't sold. After negotiating with multiple prospective buyers, Cerner Corp. agreed to buy the Internet addresses for $12 each. Other bids were as low as $1.50 each, according to a bankruptcy court filing. The sale to Cerner is scheduled for approval at the Dec. 20 hearing where Borders also hopes the bankruptcy court will confirm the liquidating Chapter 11 plan. The plan distributes assets in the order of priority called for in bankruptcy law. The disclosure statement says unsecured creditors with $812 million to $850 million in claims can expect to recover from 4 percent to 10 percent. The projected recovery doesn't include proceeds from lawsuits. Borders completed liquidating the remaining stores in September and separately sold store leases and intellectual property. Borders had 642 stores on entering bankruptcy in February and was operating 399 when the final liquidations began. It listed assets of $1.28 billion and liabilities totaling $1.29 billion.
Re: IP addresses are now assets
Wayne - Your subject line (IP addresses are now assets) could mislead folks, so I'd advise waiting to review the actual sale order once approved by the court before making summary conclusions. ARIN holds that IP address space is not property but is managed as a public resource. Address holders may have certain rights (such as the right to be the registrant of the address block, the right to transfer the registration, etc.) but these rights intersect with additional rights to the same address blocks which are held by the community (such as the right of visibility to the public portion of registrations). The registry policies (set by the community via open and transparent processes) govern the intersection and application of these rights. For this reason, ARIN works with parties transferring their rights in IP address space to make sure that the documents reflect that sales of rights are subject to the transfer policies in the region, including in this particular case. A party may transfer their rights to IP addresses, and such rights may have value to an estate, but this does not make the IP addresses property per se. Thanks! /John John Curran President and CEO ARIN
Re: IP addresses are now assets
On 12/1/2011 7:20 PM, John Curran wrote: Wayne - Your subject line (IP addresses are now assets) could mislead folks, so I'd advise waiting to review the actual sale order once approved by the court before making summary conclusions. ARIN holds that IP address space is not property but is managed as a public resource. Address holders may have certain rights (such as the right to be the registrant of the address block, the right to transfer the registration, etc.) but these rights intersect with additional rights to the same address blocks which are held by the community (such as the right of visibility to the public portion of registrations). The registry policies (set by the community via open and transparent processes) govern the intersection and application of these rights. For this reason, ARIN works with parties transferring their rights in IP address space to make sure that the documents reflect that sales of rights are subject to the transfer policies in the region, including in this particular case. A party may transfer their rights to IP addresses, and such rights may have value to an estate, but this does not make the IP addresses property per se. Thanks! /John Why'd you have to spoil the fun? You're supposed to wait a few days, let the pointless righteous fury build up and then step in and try to do the firefighting thing. It's must have been all but a month since the last time this flared up, it's surely about time it flared up again? Wouldn't want anyone to miss out on the fun ;) Paul
Re: IP addresses are now assets
On Fri, 02 Dec 2011 05:20:39 GMT, John Curran said: ARIN holds that IP address space is not property but is managed as a public resource. Address holders may have certain rights (such as the right to be the registrant of the address block, the right to transfer the registration, etc.) but these rights intersect with additional rights to the same address blocks which are held by the community (such as the right of visibility to the public portion of registrations). The registry policies (set by the community via open and transparent processes) govern the intersection and application of these rights. Would it be correct to summarize the ARIN position as It's murkier than Cerner makes it out to be, and some lawyers are gonna get stinking filthy rich litigating this one? :) pgpzU75tQMlpX.pgp Description: PGP signature
