Re: [OT] Re: Intellectual Property in Network Design
On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 12:49 AM, Owen DeLong o...@delong.com wrote: This assumes that Copyright is the only IP protection out there. There are actually two distinct realms of IP protection afforded in the US. Actually, there are four: copyright, patent, trademark and trade secret. A network configuration could fall under either copyright or trade secret. It won't fall under trademark and it's hard to imagine how a network configuration of a general shape anticipated by the router manufacturer could fall under patent. Not with the double-whammy of prior art and the recent rulings to the effect that adding on a computer to a technique is insufficient to make it patentable. However, all of the technicalities on this stuff vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. The broad strokes have been normalized through treaties for the most part, but details and technicalities still vary quite a bit. There are only so many jurisdictions with distinct law in North America. You know, this being NANOG and all. -Bill -- William Herrin her...@dirtside.com b...@herrin.us Owner, Dirtside Systems . Web: http://www.dirtside.com/
Re: [OT] Re: Intellectual Property in Network Design
On 2/15/2015 8:57 AM, William Herrin wrote: On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 12:49 AM, Owen DeLong o...@delong.com wrote: This assumes that Copyright is the only IP protection out there. There are actually two distinct realms of IP protection afforded in the US. Actually, there are four: copyright, patent, trademark and trade secret. A network configuration could fall under either copyright or trade secret. It won't fall under trademark and it's hard to imagine how a network configuration of a general shape anticipated by the router manufacturer could fall under patent. Not with the double-whammy of prior art and the recent rulings to the effect that adding on a computer to a technique is insufficient to make it patentable. I also believe it is important to note that only certain pieces retain protection. Uniquely entered data forms the basis, which protects the whole. Retaining a full copy of the config or even portions of the config which contain unique data would be a violation. This not only applies to IP Addresses entered, but also applies to routing policies. As you exceed the basics of a policy(qualified as trivial, anyone would draw that single circle with a compass), you enter into the realm of artistry. It is not that another config cannot do something similar, it just can't do it word for word. Changing the identifiers in the policies is probably not enough if you have a 50+ line policy that doesn't have prior art. Most engineers know when they've crossed the line from trivial/mundane into creative. It tends to be linked to our pride. One thing to be careful of and definitely to seek a lawyer's advice on is the transference of IP. This is because it can be retroactive. If you've created a set of policies that you use normally with clients that do not retain IP, then a transference of IP could take your rights away. You lose the prior art because you were the artist and you've given your rights to that art to someone else (which is one reason some companies want IP; legal protection). One way around this, most likely, is to establish your art as public domain (allowing you continued use of the foundation work, while losing the more specific details associated with that one project). By doing so, you may be able to protect the art itself. A lawyer would know best, of course. Jack
Re: [OT] Re: Intellectual Property in Network Design
On Sun, 15 Feb 2015 09:53:46 -0600, Jack Bates said: want IP; legal protection). One way around this, most likely, is to establish your art as public domain (allowing you continued use of the foundation work, while losing the more specific details associated with that one project). By doing so, you may be able to protect the art itself. A lawyer would know best, of course. Actually, doesn't even take a laweyer. Public domain has a very specific meaning, and is probably *not* what you want in this case. It basically means I disavow ownership and all rights to this, and anybody can take this and do whatever they want with it, including making money off it. Most importantly, you can't even waive liability - this is why stuff like the MIT X11 or similar licenses got created - you need to keep your rights in order to attach a by taking this, you promise not to sue me to my skivvies.clause. If you put it in the public domain, somebody can take it, change it, use it, make a ton of money off it, and then *still* sue you to your skivvies if it malfunctions (say, their network breaks because you didn't include any anti-DDoS support, but you could have, and they get hit with one). Now here's were you want to double-check with a lawyer. Make your base code a Creative Commons BY-NC-ND license - people can make copies of it, but can't make derivative works (in other words, they can't make changes to fit their environment) or use it for commercial purposes (which is a game stopper if you're trying to make money off it). You still have all rights, so you can then negotiate the rights to the difference between your base and the particular client's install, That may still be non-optimal for your use, because everybdoy can make a copoy - but if you were OK with public domain, that's probably not a show-stopper here. Would be if you wanted to keep trade secrecy status on your base (so consult a good IP lawyer ;) pgpen78MrXp9p.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [OT] Re: Intellectual Property in Network Design
On 2/15/2015 09:53, Jack Bates wrote: Most engineers know when they've crossed the line from trivial/mundane into creative. It tends to be linked to our pride. I wish it did not so often be driven by the thought that this may be an opportunity to game the system for personal gain. -- The unique Characteristics of System Administrators: The fact that they are infallible; and, The fact that they learn from their mistakes. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes
Re: [OT] Re: Intellectual Property in Network Design
My views are that if artistic endeavour is involved, then it is IP. Architecture is certainly that... the look... but, the pipes, sewerage, electricity, door locks... are not. They are products, bought of the shelf and assembled. It would be debatable if there is artistic endeavour in Network Architecture. Sure, there are clever approaches... such as Facebooks Fabric they released recently... https://code.facebook.com/posts/360346274145943/introducing-data-center-fabric-the-next-generation-facebook-data-center-network/ - is this something they could have claimed IP over? (I know they didn't, but COULD they have?). Personally, I don't think so. Sure some awesomely smart engineers designed this... but did they 'create' anything to do it? ...Skeeve *Skeeve Stevens - Founder Chief Network Architect* eintellego Networks Pty Ltd Email: ske...@eintellegonetworks.com ; Web: eintellegonetworks.com Phone: 1300 239 038 ; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; Skype: skeeve Facebook: eintellegonetworks http://facebook.com/eintellegonetworks ; Twitter: eintellego https://twitter.com/eintellego LinkedIn: /in/skeeve http://linkedin.com/in/skeeve ; Expert360: Profile https://expert360.com/profile/d54a9 The Experts Who The Experts Call Juniper - Cisco - Cumulus Linux - Cloud - Consulting - IPv4 Brokering On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 1:13 PM, Ahad Aboss a...@telcoinabox.com wrote: William, I beg to differ though this is getting slightly off topic. Art = something different, unexpected, not quite in your ordinary experience yet related to your ordinary experience. Art is connected to what we experience every day but it represents some kind of transformation of the everyday. Something that is not actually entirely real, it can’t be found by locating it. It requires human intervention, it’s the finger print if you will, of our existence in the world that has its impact on things that we transform through the use of imagination. How can architecture being an interaction of time, process, flow, people and things be art? The answer is elegance. It inspires people to see things in a new way and the interaction with people is the clearest point where architecture becomes an art. Properly architected network not only need to work well now, they must also provide a foundation for business and transform business, provide boundaries for information and people, and yet enable collaboration. We are entering an age of agile service creation with virtualized IT infrastructure, breaking down old constraints in many domains, including the delivery of services. No need to dwell further in to this era of SDN and NFV. To achieve all this, network designs must go beyond mechanical algorithms, and even beyond the uncertain empirical, into the world of abstract concept, mathematical theory, and raw power. Network architecture is not just about configuring routers, switches, firewalls or load balancers. One must think beyond that. How does technology drive the business? What is the perception of the network within the organization? What is the perception of the technology stance beyond the organization? If competitors see your network design, will they wonder why they didn’t think of it, or just wonder why it works at all? If a potential partner sees your network design, will they see the future or the past? All these things contribute art to the world of network architecture. Here is a question for you; When you observe a beautifully architected building, what do you see? (Link to some examples) http://www.azuremagazine.com/article/2014-top-10-architecture-projects/ Is it all about noticing the details, making observation about textures, lines materials, shapes, proportions, light and shadow? Or do we agree that architects don't only deal with buildings - they think of people, places, materials, philosophy and history, and only then consider the actual building? Ahad -Original Message- From: William Waites [mailto:wwai...@tardis.ed.ac.uk] Sent: Friday, 13 February 2015 8:55 PM To: a...@telcoinabox.com Cc: ske...@eintellegonetworks.com; o...@delong.com; b...@herrin.us; nanog@nanog.org Subject: [OT] Re: Intellectual Property in Network Design On Fri, 13 Feb 2015 11:43:14 +1100, Ahad Aboss a...@telcoinabox.com said: In a sense, you are an artist as network architecture is an art in itself. It involves interaction with time, processes, people and things or an intersection between all. This Friday's off-topic post for NANOG: Doing art is creative practice directed to uncover something new and not pre-conceived. Successful acts of art produce something that not only wasn't there before but that nobody thought could be there. The art is the change in thinking that results. Whatever else is left over is residue. An engineer or architect in the usual setting, no matter how skilled, is not doing art
Re: [OT] Re: Intellectual Property in Network Design
On Sat, 14 Feb 2015 22:21:00 +1100, Skeeve Stevens said: Personally, I don't think so. Sure some awesomely smart engineers designed this... but did they 'create' anything to do it? I already cited legislative history that indicates that even things like phone directories are suitable for copyright protection. That creation bar is pretty darned low. pgpFRWc0IrIRm.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [OT] Re: Intellectual Property in Network Design
On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 10:26 PM, Skeeve Stevens ske...@eintellegonetworks.com wrote: My views are that if artistic endeavour is involved, then it is IP. Architecture is certainly that... the look... but, the pipes, sewerage, electricity, door locks... are not. They are products, bought of the shelf and assembled. Hi Skeeve, I think I see where you're getting hung up. The whole thing is intellectual property (IP). Including all of the parts. The pipes, the wires, the locks, all of it. But that doesn't necessarily mean that each part is protectable independent of the rest. Copyright law basically says that if there is any substantive creative input into a work's creation then the work is not only copyrightable, unless the author explicitly says different it's also copyrighted. Throw a paint filled balloon at a canvas and the resulting splatter is copyrighted. Consider: do more unforced choices, more optional choices, more creative choices go in to the production of a router configuration? Of course they do. One can be snobbish about whether that qualifies as art, but it's certainly intellectual property (IP). The catch here is that independent creation is proof against copyright violation. So if there really are only three ways to configure something, you will never successfully enforce the fact that your configuration used one of them. Just because your router configuration is copyrighted doesn't mean someone else can't create exactly the same configuration. And their version will carry a full copyright too. Regards, Bill Herrin -- William Herrin her...@dirtside.com b...@herrin.us Owner, Dirtside Systems . Web: http://www.dirtside.com/
Re: [OT] Re: Intellectual Property in Network Design
Copyright law basically says that if there is any substantive creative input into a work's creation then the work is not only copyrightable, unless the author explicitly says different it's also copyrighted. Throw a paint filled balloon at a canvas and the resulting splatter is copyrighted. Consider: do more unforced choices, more optional choices, more creative choices go in to the production of a router configuration? Of course they do. One can be snobbish about whether that qualifies as art, but it's certainly intellectual property (IP). This assumes that Copyright is the only IP protection out there. There are actually two distinct realms of IP protection afforded in the US. Most other nations have a similar division. Copyright is for works of original creation, but cannot cover a process, practice, or device. Patents, on the other hand, cover processes, practices, and devices, etc. On a theoretical level, a network design and/or it’s documentation, configuration files, etc. could be and likely are copyright(-able,-ed). On a theoretical level, if you come up with some truly novel non-obvious reduction to practice of some particular process, you might well be able to patent it. While independent creation is a defense for copyright, it is irrelevant to a patent. Prior art can be a valid defense for a patent, but independently arriving at the same conclusion from independent development is not, in itself, a valid defense. (Showing that the patent is obvious, a minimal evolutionary step, or other such trivialization can be a valid defense.) However, all of the technicalities on this stuff vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. The broad strokes have been normalized through treaties for the most part, but details and technicalities still vary quite a bit. As such, if it really matters, get good local legal advice from all involved countries. Owen
[OT] Re: Intellectual Property in Network Design
On Fri, 13 Feb 2015 11:43:14 +1100, Ahad Aboss a...@telcoinabox.com said: In a sense, you are an artist as network architecture is an art in itself. It involves interaction with time, processes, people and things or an intersection between all. This Friday's off-topic post for NANOG: Doing art is creative practice directed to uncover something new and not pre-conceived. Successful acts of art produce something that not only wasn't there before but that nobody thought could be there. The art is the change in thinking that results. Whatever else is left over is residue. An engineer or architect in the usual setting, no matter how skilled, is not doing art because the whole activity is pre-conceived. Even a clean and elegant design is not usually intended to show beautiful connections between ideas the same way poetry or mathematics might. Hiring an engineer for this purpose almost never happens in industry. Rather the purpose is to make a thing that does what it is intended to do. It is craft, or second-order residue. Useful, possibly difficult, but not art. Some people want to claim ownership of a recipe for predictably creating residue of a certain kind. An artist knows that this is not good for doing art because nothing new can come from it. If they are committed to their practice, they will not seek to prevent others from using an old recipe. Why would they? They have already moved on. Some older thoughts on the topic: http://archive.groovy.net/syntac/ pgpnAhVCkiBjX.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [OT] Re: Intellectual Property in Network Design
On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 8:54 AM, Skeeve Stevens ske...@eintellegonetworks.com wrote: On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 8:55 PM, William Waites wwai...@tardis.ed.ac.uk wrote: An engineer or architect in the usual setting, no matter how skilled, is not doing art because the whole activity is pre-conceived. Even a Excellent perspective... Howdy, I have to disagree with you there. This particular ship sailed four decades ago when CONTU found computer software to be copyrightable and the subsequent legislation and litigation agreed. If a router configuration turns out not to be art, it isn't because the engineer had to follow practical rules to create it. Regards, Bill Herrin -- William Herrin her...@dirtside.com b...@herrin.us Owner, Dirtside Systems . Web: http://www.dirtside.com/
Re: [OT] Re: Intellectual Property in Network Design
On Fri, 13 Feb 2015 10:28:25 -0500, William Herrin said:
I have to disagree with you there. This particular ship sailed four decades
ago when CONTU found computer software to be copyrightable and the
subsequent legislation and litigation agreed.
The output of craft is copyrightable even if it doesn't count as art,
as long as it meets the requirement of 17 USC 102(a)(1) - literary works.
The issue with software wasn't if it was art, but if it was a literary work
(they struggled for a while with the concept of machine-readable versus human
readable).
Furthermore, the House Report discussing the Act states:
The term literary works does not connote any criterion of literary merit or
qualitative value: it includes catalogs, directories, and similar factual,
reference, or instructional works and compilations of data. It also includes
computer data bases, and computer programs to the extent that they incorporate
authorship in the programmer's expression of original ideas, as
distinguished from the ideas themselves. {FN8: H.R. Rep. No. 94-1476 at 54}
http://digital-law-online.info/lpdi1.0/treatise17.html
If catalogs and directories are covered, config files are... :)
pgpXQUSlYtP8x.pgp
Description: PGP signature
Re: [OT] Re: Intellectual Property in Network Design
On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 12:25 PM, valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote: The issue with software wasn't if it was art, but if it was a literary work (they struggled for a while with the concept of machine-readable versus human readable). If catalogs and directories are covered, config files are... :) Smells like a Friday challenge for who can produce the most artistic yet functionally correct Cisco configuration. -Bill -- William Herrin her...@dirtside.com b...@herrin.us Owner, Dirtside Systems . Web: http://www.dirtside.com/
Re: [OT] Re: Intellectual Property in Network Design
On Fri, 13 Feb 2015 13:36:43 -0500, William Herrin said: On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 12:25 PM, valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote: If catalogs and directories are covered, config files are... :) Smells like a Friday challenge for who can produce the most artistic yet functionally correct Cisco configuration. All too many of them read like either Edgar Allen Poe or HP Lovecraft. :) pgpDKryPclccO.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [OT] Re: Intellectual Property in Network Design
Thank you for looking up facts, laws, etc... The rest is merely opinion,
and wouldn't necessarily help someone trying to protect their network
designs.
On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 11:25 AM, valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote:
On Fri, 13 Feb 2015 10:28:25 -0500, William Herrin said:
I have to disagree with you there. This particular ship sailed four
decades
ago when CONTU found computer software to be copyrightable and the
subsequent legislation and litigation agreed.
The output of craft is copyrightable even if it doesn't count as art,
as long as it meets the requirement of 17 USC 102(a)(1) - literary works.
The issue with software wasn't if it was art, but if it was a literary
work
(they struggled for a while with the concept of machine-readable versus
human
readable).
Furthermore, the House Report discussing the Act states:
The term literary works does not connote any criterion of literary merit
or
qualitative value: it includes catalogs, directories, and similar factual,
reference, or instructional works and compilations of data. It also
includes
computer data bases, and computer programs to the extent that they
incorporate
authorship in the programmer's expression of original ideas, as
distinguished from the ideas themselves. {FN8: H.R. Rep. No. 94-1476 at 54}
http://digital-law-online.info/lpdi1.0/treatise17.html
If catalogs and directories are covered, config files are... :)
Re: Intellectual Property in Network Design
On 12 Feb 2015, at 3:12, Skeeve Stevens wrote: Hi all, I have two perspectives I am trying to address with regard to network design and intellectual property. 1) The business who does the design - what are their rights? 2) The customer who asked for the rights from a consultant My personal thoughts are conflicting: - You create networks with standard protocols, configurations, etc... so it shouldn't be IP - But you can design things in interesting ways, with experience, skill, creativity.. maybe that should be IP? - But artwork are created with colors, paintbrushes, canvas... but the result is IP - A photographer takes a photo - it is IP - But how are 'how you do your Cisco/Juniper configs' possibly IP? - If I design a network one way for a customer and they want 'IP', does that mean I can't ever design a network like that again? What? I've seen a few telcos say that they own the IP related to the network design of their customers they deploy... which based on the above... feels uncomfortable... I'm really conflicted on this and wondering if anyone else has come across this situation. Perhaps any legal cases/precedent (note, I am not looking for legal advice :) If this email isn't appropriate for the list... sorry, and please feel free to respond off-line. ...Skeeve You really need to get real legal advice. There are a fair number of deep legal issues here, as best I can tell (and I'm not a lawyer); there may not be anything that's actually legally protectable. Of course, the other party may have a lawyer who thinks the opposite, and there may or may not be enough case law to come to a reasonably probable common answer. So--decide what your preference is (I tend to agree with Randy, but that's me), and learn what your lawyer thinks of the general question. Then ask the lawyer what to do if there are conflicting opinions on whether or not it can be protected, and to draft language consistent with your preference and that belief for the contract. --Steve Bellovin, https://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb
RE: [OT] Re: Intellectual Property in Network Design
William, I beg to differ though this is getting slightly off topic. Art = something different, unexpected, not quite in your ordinary experience yet related to your ordinary experience. Art is connected to what we experience every day but it represents some kind of transformation of the everyday. Something that is not actually entirely real, it can’t be found by locating it. It requires human intervention, it’s the finger print if you will, of our existence in the world that has its impact on things that we transform through the use of imagination. How can architecture being an interaction of time, process, flow, people and things be art? The answer is elegance. It inspires people to see things in a new way and the interaction with people is the clearest point where architecture becomes an art. Properly architected network not only need to work well now, they must also provide a foundation for business and transform business, provide boundaries for information and people, and yet enable collaboration. We are entering an age of agile service creation with virtualized IT infrastructure, breaking down old constraints in many domains, including the delivery of services. No need to dwell further in to this era of SDN and NFV. To achieve all this, network designs must go beyond mechanical algorithms, and even beyond the uncertain empirical, into the world of abstract concept, mathematical theory, and raw power. Network architecture is not just about configuring routers, switches, firewalls or load balancers. One must think beyond that. How does technology drive the business? What is the perception of the network within the organization? What is the perception of the technology stance beyond the organization? If competitors see your network design, will they wonder why they didn’t think of it, or just wonder why it works at all? If a potential partner sees your network design, will they see the future or the past? All these things contribute art to the world of network architecture. Here is a question for you; When you observe a beautifully architected building, what do you see? (Link to some examples) http://www.azuremagazine.com/article/2014-top-10-architecture-projects/ Is it all about noticing the details, making observation about textures, lines materials, shapes, proportions, light and shadow? Or do we agree that architects don't only deal with buildings - they think of people, places, materials, philosophy and history, and only then consider the actual building? Ahad -Original Message- From: William Waites [mailto:wwai...@tardis.ed.ac.uk] Sent: Friday, 13 February 2015 8:55 PM To: a...@telcoinabox.com Cc: ske...@eintellegonetworks.com; o...@delong.com; b...@herrin.us; nanog@nanog.org Subject: [OT] Re: Intellectual Property in Network Design On Fri, 13 Feb 2015 11:43:14 +1100, Ahad Aboss a...@telcoinabox.com said: In a sense, you are an artist as network architecture is an art in itself. It involves interaction with time, processes, people and things or an intersection between all. This Friday's off-topic post for NANOG: Doing art is creative practice directed to uncover something new and not pre-conceived. Successful acts of art produce something that not only wasn't there before but that nobody thought could be there. The art is the change in thinking that results. Whatever else is left over is residue. An engineer or architect in the usual setting, no matter how skilled, is not doing art because the whole activity is pre-conceived. Even a clean and elegant design is not usually intended to show beautiful connections between ideas the same way poetry or mathematics might. Hiring an engineer for this purpose almost never happens in industry. Rather the purpose is to make a thing that does what it is intended to do. It is craft, or second-order residue. Useful, possibly difficult, but not art. Some people want to claim ownership of a recipe for predictably creating residue of a certain kind. An artist knows that this is not good for doing art because nothing new can come from it. If they are committed to their practice, they will not seek to prevent others from using an old recipe. Why would they? They have already moved on. Some older thoughts on the topic: http://archive.groovy.net/syntac/
Re: Intellectual Property in Network Design
The extent to which this is technically feasible and how one must go about it actually varies greatly from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Something well worth considering given the number of jurisdictions already mentioned in the current discussion. There are a number of possible concerns that the customer in question may be attempting to solve with their request. The first step is to identify which concern(s) they want to address. 1. Do they want to make sure that they have sufficient rights in the design that they can replicate/modify/otherwise use it without further compensating you? 2. Do they want to make sure that you surrender your rights in the design so that you are not able to provide an identical solution to another customer in the future and/or that you do not use their design as an example or case study for your marketing purposes? 3. Do they not really have a concern, but someone told them that it was important to ask this question? 4. Do they want to make sure this treated as a “work for hire” with all the legal implications that caries? There are probably others that I am not thinking of at the moment. Owen On Feb 12, 2015, at 08:18 , William Herrin b...@herrin.us wrote: On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 7:36 AM, Skeeve Stevens skeeve+na...@eintellegonetworks.com wrote: Actually Bill... I have two (conflicting) perspectives as I said but to clarify: 1) A customer asked 'Can you make sure we have the IP for the network design' which I was wondering if it is even technically possible Hi Skeeve, IANAL but I play one when I can get away with it. This is usually covered as, Contractor agrees to provide Customer with all documents, diagrams, software or other materials produced in the course of the contract. Contractor shall upon request assign all ownership of such materials to Customer. Contractor shall retain no copies of said material following termination of the contract. So yes, it's technically feasible. 2) If I design some amazing solutions... am I able to claim IP. If it's copyrightable (a solution may be), then as a contractor (not an employee) the copyright vests in you. If the contract states that you agree to transfer it to the customer then you breach the contract if you don't. If the contract says the copyrights are theirs then at least that part of the contract is probably void. Barring W2 employment copyrights nearly always vest in the individual who first put them in to a tangible form. There are explicit and narrow exceptions in the law. Preface of a book. That sort of thing. It's unlikely you'll run afoul of any of them. Lawyers get this wrong shockingly often. IP doesn't vest in the customer and can't be transferred until it exists. The creator is a W2 employee. The contractor agrees to transfer it following creation. Just about everything else is void. If the contract doesn't say one way or another then the lawyer who wrote it was asleep at the wheel. However... the techniques used to produce the solution usually classify as ideas. You may be bound under non-disclosure terms to not share ideas produced for the customer within the scope of the customer's system but ideas are never property. You can't own them and neither can the customer. Regards, Bill Herrin -- William Herrin her...@dirtside.com b...@herrin.us Owner, Dirtside Systems . Web: http://www.dirtside.com/
Re: Intellectual Property in Network Design
creative commons
RE: Intellectual Property in Network Design
Hi Skeeve, In a sense, you are an artist as network architecture is an art in itself. It involves interaction with time, processes, people and things or an intersection between all. As an architect, you analyze customer needs and design a solution using your creative ideas to address their business driven needs today. In some ways, this is easier because creating a business centric network provides you some parameters to design within. You might mix and match technologies that will suite one business better than the other but it's your creative ideas. It's not secrets of their trade that you replicate or takeaway. You are master of the trade and you design a solution that works best for them. While some design principles for application service provider, enterprise, carrier or ISP have similarities, no two network is the same. If you don't claim IP on the design or publish company names you've done the designs for, under what jurisdiction can they claim what you designed is their IP? What if their requirement changes in 6 months from now? If a architect designs a road system in a particular way, does it mean he/she can't design another road again because of IP issue? I would tend to disagree. It may not answer your questions but I hope it provides some content to support your case :) Regards, Ahad -Original Message- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Owen DeLong Sent: Friday, 13 February 2015 6:46 AM To: William Herrin Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Intellectual Property in Network Design The extent to which this is technically feasible and how one must go about it actually varies greatly from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Something well worth considering given the number of jurisdictions already mentioned in the current discussion. There are a number of possible concerns that the customer in question may be attempting to solve with their request. The first step is to identify which concern(s) they want to address. 1. Do they want to make sure that they have sufficient rights in the design that they can replicate/modify/otherwise use it without further compensating you? 2. Do they want to make sure that you surrender your rights in the design so that you are not able to provide an identical solution to another customer in the future and/or that you do not use their design as an example or case study for your marketing purposes? 3. Do they not really have a concern, but someone told them that it was important to ask this question? 4. Do they want to make sure this treated as a work for hire with all the legal implications that caries? There are probably others that I am not thinking of at the moment. Owen On Feb 12, 2015, at 08:18 , William Herrin b...@herrin.us wrote: On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 7:36 AM, Skeeve Stevens skeeve+na...@eintellegonetworks.com wrote: Actually Bill... I have two (conflicting) perspectives as I said but to clarify: 1) A customer asked 'Can you make sure we have the IP for the network design' which I was wondering if it is even technically possible Hi Skeeve, IANAL but I play one when I can get away with it. This is usually covered as, Contractor agrees to provide Customer with all documents, diagrams, software or other materials produced in the course of the contract. Contractor shall upon request assign all ownership of such materials to Customer. Contractor shall retain no copies of said material following termination of the contract. So yes, it's technically feasible. 2) If I design some amazing solutions... am I able to claim IP. If it's copyrightable (a solution may be), then as a contractor (not an employee) the copyright vests in you. If the contract states that you agree to transfer it to the customer then you breach the contract if you don't. If the contract says the copyrights are theirs then at least that part of the contract is probably void. Barring W2 employment copyrights nearly always vest in the individual who first put them in to a tangible form. There are explicit and narrow exceptions in the law. Preface of a book. That sort of thing. It's unlikely you'll run afoul of any of them. Lawyers get this wrong shockingly often. IP doesn't vest in the customer and can't be transferred until it exists. The creator is a W2 employee. The contractor agrees to transfer it following creation. Just about everything else is void. If the contract doesn't say one way or another then the lawyer who wrote it was asleep at the wheel. However... the techniques used to produce the solution usually classify as ideas. You may be bound under non-disclosure terms to not share ideas produced for the customer within the scope of the customer's system but ideas are never property. You can't own them
Re: Intellectual Property in Network Design
On Feb 12, 2015, at 5:43 PM, Ahad Aboss a...@telcoinabox.com wrote: Hi Skeeve, In a sense, you are an artist as network architecture is an art in itself. It involves interaction with time, processes, people and things or an intersection between all. And to that, artwork would fall under copyright *Sarcasm*? +1 on art form! More like an abstract martial art really. PacketFu! As an architect, you analyze customer needs and design a solution using your creative ideas to address their business driven needs today. In some ways, this is easier because creating a If you are a consultant wouldn’t that fall under work for hire? If you are an employee? Check the contract, I am betting there is a clause for IP ownership! business centric network provides you some parameters to design within. You might mix and match technologies that will suite one business better than the other but it's your creative ideas. It's not secrets of their trade that you replicate or takeaway. You are master of the trade and you design a solution that works best for them. While some design principles for application service provider, enterprise, carrier or ISP have similarities, no two network is the same. If you don't claim IP on the design or publish company names you've done the designs for, under what jurisdiction can they claim what you designed is their IP? What if their requirement changes in 6 months from now? If a architect designs a road system in a particular way, does it mean he/she can't design another road again because of IP issue? I would tend to disagree. +1 It may not answer your questions but I hope it provides some content to support your case :) Regards, Ahad -Original Message- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Owen DeLong Sent: Friday, 13 February 2015 6:46 AM To: William Herrin Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Intellectual Property in Network Design The extent to which this is technically feasible and how one must go about it actually varies greatly from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Something well worth considering given the number of jurisdictions already mentioned in the current discussion. There are a number of possible concerns that the customer in question may be attempting to solve with their request. The first step is to identify which concern(s) they want to address. 1. Do they want to make sure that they have sufficient rights in the design that they can replicate/modify/otherwise use it without further compensating you? 2. Do they want to make sure that you surrender your rights in the design so that you are not able to provide an identical solution to another customer in the future and/or that you do not use their design as an example or case study for your marketing purposes? 3. Do they not really have a concern, but someone told them that it was important to ask this question? 4. Do they want to make sure this treated as a work for hire with all the legal implications that caries? There are probably others that I am not thinking of at the moment. Owen On Feb 12, 2015, at 08:18 , William Herrin b...@herrin.us wrote: On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 7:36 AM, Skeeve Stevens skeeve+na...@eintellegonetworks.com wrote: Actually Bill... I have two (conflicting) perspectives as I said but to clarify: 1) A customer asked 'Can you make sure we have the IP for the network design' which I was wondering if it is even technically possible Hi Skeeve, IANAL but I play one when I can get away with it. This is usually covered as, Contractor agrees to provide Customer with all documents, diagrams, software or other materials produced in the course of the contract. Contractor shall upon request assign all ownership of such materials to Customer. Contractor shall retain no copies of said material following termination of the contract. So yes, it's technically feasible. 2) If I design some amazing solutions... am I able to claim IP. If it's copyrightable (a solution may be), then as a contractor (not an employee) the copyright vests in you. If the contract states that you agree to transfer it to the customer then you breach the contract if you don't. If the contract says the copyrights are theirs then at least that part of the contract is probably void. Barring W2 employment copyrights nearly always vest in the individual who first put them in to a tangible form. There are explicit and narrow exceptions in the law. Preface of a book. That sort of thing. It's unlikely you'll run afoul of any of them. Lawyers get this wrong shockingly often. IP doesn't vest in the customer and can't be transferred until it exists. The creator is a W2 employee. The contractor agrees to transfer it following
Intellectual Property in Network Design
Hi all, I have two perspectives I am trying to address with regard to network design and intellectual property. 1) The business who does the design - what are their rights? 2) The customer who asked for the rights from a consultant My personal thoughts are conflicting: - You create networks with standard protocols, configurations, etc... so it shouldn't be IP - But you can design things in interesting ways, with experience, skill, creativity.. maybe that should be IP? - But artwork are created with colors, paintbrushes, canvas... but the result is IP - A photographer takes a photo - it is IP - But how are 'how you do your Cisco/Juniper configs' possibly IP? - If I design a network one way for a customer and they want 'IP', does that mean I can't ever design a network like that again? What? I've seen a few telcos say that they own the IP related to the network design of their customers they deploy... which based on the above... feels uncomfortable... I'm really conflicted on this and wondering if anyone else has come across this situation. Perhaps any legal cases/precedent (note, I am not looking for legal advice :) If this email isn't appropriate for the list... sorry, and please feel free to respond off-line. ...Skeeve *Skeeve Stevens - Founder Chief Network Architect* eintellego Networks Pty Ltd Email: ske...@eintellegonetworks.com ; Web: eintellegonetworks.com Phone: 1300 239 038 ; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; Skype: skeeve Facebook: eintellegonetworks http://facebook.com/eintellegonetworks ; Twitter: eintellego https://twitter.com/eintellego LinkedIn: /in/skeeve http://linkedin.com/in/skeeve ; Expert360: Profile https://expert360.com/profile/d54a9 The Experts Who The Experts Call Juniper - Cisco - Cumulus Linux - Cloud - Consulting - IPv4 Brokering
Re: Intellectual Property in Network Design
On 12/Feb/15 14:58, Michael Butler wrote: And to compound the (perceived) problem, any IP embedded in a network design is almost always prior art. It's not a rabbit-hole worth going down - I agree with Randy, Agree. Mark.
Re: Intellectual Property in Network Design
And to compound the (perceived) problem, any IP embedded in a network design is almost always prior art. It's not a rabbit-hole worth going down - I agree with Randy, i have four lives. iij research, dev, ... our goal is to publish our ideas there are coworkers doing very innovative design for datacenter stuff. we do not patent, ... open source routing security design, specs, software, ... bsd and cc licensed. an open source crypto design and code project. bsd and cc licensed. and the last is giving away as much networking design and operational knowledge as i can to engineers in the developing world. steal this book! randy
Re: Intellectual Property in Network Design
Actually Bill... I have two (conflicting) perspectives as I said but to clarify: 1) A customer asked 'Can you make sure we have the IP for the network design' which I was wondering if it is even technically possible 2) If I design some amazing solutions... am I able to claim IP. My gut feeling is no to both of them... because, if it happen (VERY LIKELY) that somewhere, someone designs an network to the exact same specifications - to the config line - Would that mean they have infringed on my IP unknowingly, and how would I even know if I was unique in the first instance? What I am really looking for is some working, experience, precedence that backs up the view that IP on network design is actually not possible... which is my gut feeling. In the past I have always stated that, and it's never been challenged... and nor is it in this case... but, it is an important think I guess many of us should probably be aware of where we stand. ...Skeeve *Skeeve Stevens - Founder Chief Network Architect* eintellego Networks Pty Ltd Email: ske...@eintellegonetworks.com ; Web: eintellegonetworks.com Phone: 1300 239 038 ; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; Skype: skeeve Facebook: eintellegonetworks http://facebook.com/eintellegonetworks ; Twitter: eintellego https://twitter.com/eintellego LinkedIn: /in/skeeve http://linkedin.com/in/skeeve ; Expert360: Profile https://expert360.com/profile/d54a9 The Experts Who The Experts Call Juniper - Cisco - Cumulus Linux - Cloud - Consulting - IPv4 Brokering On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 7:45 PM, Bill Woodcock wo...@pch.net wrote: I include a no intellectual property ownership is transferred between the Parties clause in just about everything we do. Doesn't demand that any of the questions you raise be answered, but shuts the door to problems pretty firmly. -Bill On Feb 12, 2015, at 17:20, Skeeve Stevens skeeve+na...@eintellegonetworks.com wrote: Hi all, I have two perspectives I am trying to address with regard to network design and intellectual property. 1) The business who does the design - what are their rights? 2) The customer who asked for the rights from a consultant My personal thoughts are conflicting: - You create networks with standard protocols, configurations, etc... so it shouldn't be IP - But you can design things in interesting ways, with experience, skill, creativity.. maybe that should be IP? - But artwork are created with colors, paintbrushes, canvas... but the result is IP - A photographer takes a photo - it is IP - But how are 'how you do your Cisco/Juniper configs' possibly IP? - If I design a network one way for a customer and they want 'IP', does that mean I can't ever design a network like that again? What? I've seen a few telcos say that they own the IP related to the network design of their customers they deploy... which based on the above... feels uncomfortable... I'm really conflicted on this and wondering if anyone else has come across this situation. Perhaps any legal cases/precedent (note, I am not looking for legal advice :) If this email isn't appropriate for the list... sorry, and please feel free to respond off-line. ...Skeeve *Skeeve Stevens - Founder Chief Network Architect* eintellego Networks Pty Ltd Email: ske...@eintellegonetworks.com ; Web: eintellegonetworks.com Phone: 1300 239 038 ; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; Skype: skeeve Facebook: eintellegonetworks http://facebook.com/eintellegonetworks ; Twitter: eintellego https://twitter.com/eintellego LinkedIn: /in/skeeve http://linkedin.com/in/skeeve ; Expert360: Profile https://expert360.com/profile/d54a9 The Experts Who The Experts Call Juniper - Cisco - Cumulus Linux - Cloud - Consulting - IPv4 Brokering
Re: Intellectual Property in Network Design
Actually Bill... I have two (conflicting) perspectives as I said but to clarify: 1) A customer asked 'Can you make sure we have the IP for the network design' which I was wondering if it is even technically possible I think they mean we don't want you coming back and trying to make any claim on us for anything we may do with the work you did for us that may mean something like they extend it or roll out some more to the same design or start selling it as part of a system to their customers There's been legal cases with architects designing a store building for a chain and the chain then reusing the desing for more sites. I've not heard of it for networks and your customer wants to keep it that way. 2) If I design some amazing solutions... am I able to claim IP. Doesn't matter but if you did they want the rights to it already brandon
Re: Intellectual Property in Network Design
I'm keen to see how you might think that fits in to the context? creative commons i prefer to be paid for being able to think, not for what i once thought. creative commons suits my needs for network designs. randy --- Q: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. A: Why is top posting frowned upon?
Re: Intellectual Property in Network Design
On 02/12/15 07:42, Randy Bush wrote: I'm keen to see how you might think that fits in to the context? creative commons i prefer to be paid for being able to think, not for what i once thought. creative commons suits my needs for network designs. And to compound the (perceived) problem, any IP embedded in a network design is almost always prior art. It's not a rabbit-hole worth going down - I agree with Randy, imb
Re: Intellectual Property in Network Design
Hey Randy, I'm keen to see how you might think that fits in to the context? ...Skeeve *Skeeve Stevens - Founder Chief Network Architect* eintellego Networks Pty Ltd Email: ske...@eintellegonetworks.com ; Web: eintellegonetworks.com Phone: 1300 239 038 ; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; Skype: skeeve Facebook: eintellegonetworks http://facebook.com/eintellegonetworks ; Twitter: eintellego https://twitter.com/eintellego LinkedIn: /in/skeeve http://linkedin.com/in/skeeve ; Expert360: Profile https://expert360.com/profile/d54a9 The Experts Who The Experts Call Juniper - Cisco - Cumulus Linux - Cloud - Consulting - IPv4 Brokering 2015-02-12 21:19 GMT+11:00 Randy Bush ra...@psg.com: creative commons
Re: Intellectual Property in Network Design
On 12/Feb/15 14:36, Skeeve Stevens wrote: What I am really looking for is some working, experience, precedence that backs up the view that IP on network design is actually not possible... which is my gut feeling. I've designed some pretty unique and profitable features using tech. (not necessarily open standards, but available to anyone who buys the hardware) because I was able to interpret the feature better than the competition, and make it do things it wasn't originally intended for. Now, when I leave that company and repeat the same at new company (out of sheer fun, perhaps), can the previous company claim IP, or would I be the one to claim IP since I was the one who thought up the idea in the first place? Configurations between operators are all the same. How you put them together is what can set you apart in your market. I suppose your question is whether how you put them together that sets up apart from the competition is worth the IP debate. Mark.
Re: Intellectual Property in Network Design
I like this take on it... thanks David. ...Skeeve *Skeeve Stevens - Founder Chief Network Architect* eintellego Networks Pty Ltd Email: ske...@eintellegonetworks.com ; Web: eintellegonetworks.com Phone: 1300 239 038 ; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; Skype: skeeve Facebook: eintellegonetworks http://facebook.com/eintellegonetworks ; Twitter: eintellego https://twitter.com/eintellego LinkedIn: /in/skeeve http://linkedin.com/in/skeeve ; Expert360: Profile https://expert360.com/profile/d54a9 The Experts Who The Experts Call Juniper - Cisco - Cumulus Linux - Cloud - Consulting - IPv4 Brokering On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 2:27 AM, David Barak thegame...@yahoo.com wrote: On Thursday, February 12, 2015 7:38 AM, Skeeve Stevens skeeve+na...@eintellegonetworks.com wrote: Actually Bill... I have two (conflicting) perspectives as I said but to clarify: 1) A customer asked 'Can you make sure we have the IP for the network design' which I was wondering if it is even technically possible 2) If I design some amazing solutions... am I able to claim IP. It is worth differentiating between the design itself and the documentation of said design. The latter is clearly and totally IP, and you could present that to the customer as theirs: theirs and not yours - that is, you would use different templates, naming conventions, etc. if you created from whole cloth a similar design for a different customer in a similar situation. They may be attempting to make sure that their network documents don't show up as examples or other presentations for other customers. As an example, an architecture document or a network assessment would be covered by copyright law, and as such could be assigned to the author, the company which created it, or could be work-for-hire and assigned to the hiring company, depending on the contract in question. As to an amazing design solution, the USPTO has rules for that - you could patent your design, but in our line of work that'd be a high bar given prior art. David Barak Need Geek Rock? Try The Franchise: http://www.cdbaby.com/all/thefranchise http://www.listentothefranchise.com/ http://www.listentothefranchise.com/
Re: Intellectual Property in Network Design
On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 7:36 AM, Skeeve Stevens skeeve+na...@eintellegonetworks.com wrote: Actually Bill... I have two (conflicting) perspectives as I said but to clarify: 1) A customer asked 'Can you make sure we have the IP for the network design' which I was wondering if it is even technically possible Hi Skeeve, IANAL but I play one when I can get away with it. This is usually covered as, Contractor agrees to provide Customer with all documents, diagrams, software or other materials produced in the course of the contract. Contractor shall upon request assign all ownership of such materials to Customer. Contractor shall retain no copies of said material following termination of the contract. So yes, it's technically feasible. 2) If I design some amazing solutions... am I able to claim IP. If it's copyrightable (a solution may be), then as a contractor (not an employee) the copyright vests in you. If the contract states that you agree to transfer it to the customer then you breach the contract if you don't. If the contract says the copyrights are theirs then at least that part of the contract is probably void. Barring W2 employment copyrights nearly always vest in the individual who first put them in to a tangible form. There are explicit and narrow exceptions in the law. Preface of a book. That sort of thing. It's unlikely you'll run afoul of any of them. Lawyers get this wrong shockingly often. IP doesn't vest in the customer and can't be transferred until it exists. The creator is a W2 employee. The contractor agrees to transfer it following creation. Just about everything else is void. If the contract doesn't say one way or another then the lawyer who wrote it was asleep at the wheel. However... the techniques used to produce the solution usually classify as ideas. You may be bound under non-disclosure terms to not share ideas produced for the customer within the scope of the customer's system but ideas are never property. You can't own them and neither can the customer. Regards, Bill Herrin -- William Herrin her...@dirtside.com b...@herrin.us Owner, Dirtside Systems . Web: http://www.dirtside.com/
Re: Intellectual Property in Network Design
Exactly my thoughts Mark ...Skeeve *Skeeve Stevens - Founder Chief Network Architect* eintellego Networks Pty Ltd Email: ske...@eintellegonetworks.com ; Web: eintellegonetworks.com Phone: 1300 239 038 ; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; Skype: skeeve Facebook: eintellegonetworks http://facebook.com/eintellegonetworks ; Twitter: eintellego https://twitter.com/eintellego LinkedIn: /in/skeeve http://linkedin.com/in/skeeve ; Expert360: Profile https://expert360.com/profile/d54a9 The Experts Who The Experts Call Juniper - Cisco - Cumulus Linux - Cloud - Consulting - IPv4 Brokering On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 11:53 PM, Mark Tinka mark.ti...@seacom.mu wrote: On 12/Feb/15 14:36, Skeeve Stevens wrote: What I am really looking for is some working, experience, precedence that backs up the view that IP on network design is actually not possible... which is my gut feeling. I've designed some pretty unique and profitable features using tech. (not necessarily open standards, but available to anyone who buys the hardware) because I was able to interpret the feature better than the competition, and make it do things it wasn't originally intended for. Now, when I leave that company and repeat the same at new company (out of sheer fun, perhaps), can the previous company claim IP, or would I be the one to claim IP since I was the one who thought up the idea in the first place? Configurations between operators are all the same. How you put them together is what can set you apart in your market. I suppose your question is whether how you put them together that sets up apart from the competition is worth the IP debate. Mark.
Re: Intellectual Property in Network Design
I include a no intellectual property ownership is transferred between the Parties clause in just about everything we do. Doesn't demand that any of the questions you raise be answered, but shuts the door to problems pretty firmly. -Bill On Feb 12, 2015, at 17:20, Skeeve Stevens skeeve+na...@eintellegonetworks.com wrote: Hi all, I have two perspectives I am trying to address with regard to network design and intellectual property. 1) The business who does the design - what are their rights? 2) The customer who asked for the rights from a consultant My personal thoughts are conflicting: - You create networks with standard protocols, configurations, etc... so it shouldn't be IP - But you can design things in interesting ways, with experience, skill, creativity.. maybe that should be IP? - But artwork are created with colors, paintbrushes, canvas... but the result is IP - A photographer takes a photo - it is IP - But how are 'how you do your Cisco/Juniper configs' possibly IP? - If I design a network one way for a customer and they want 'IP', does that mean I can't ever design a network like that again? What? I've seen a few telcos say that they own the IP related to the network design of their customers they deploy... which based on the above... feels uncomfortable... I'm really conflicted on this and wondering if anyone else has come across this situation. Perhaps any legal cases/precedent (note, I am not looking for legal advice :) If this email isn't appropriate for the list... sorry, and please feel free to respond off-line. ...Skeeve *Skeeve Stevens - Founder Chief Network Architect* eintellego Networks Pty Ltd Email: ske...@eintellegonetworks.com ; Web: eintellegonetworks.com Phone: 1300 239 038 ; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; Skype: skeeve Facebook: eintellegonetworks http://facebook.com/eintellegonetworks ; Twitter: eintellego https://twitter.com/eintellego LinkedIn: /in/skeeve http://linkedin.com/in/skeeve ; Expert360: Profile https://expert360.com/profile/d54a9 The Experts Who The Experts Call Juniper - Cisco - Cumulus Linux - Cloud - Consulting - IPv4 Brokering
