Re: "Is TDM going the way of dial-up?"
On Tue, 30 Mar 2010 05:28:40 -, Michael Sokolov said: > Kevin Oberman wrote: > > > And, if you are using a 1988 TCP stack on a 4.3 system, you are not > > likely to ever efficiently utilize a higher speed link > > What higher speed link? I'm very happy with 384 kbps symmetric, using > SDSL as ARPANET replacement. I have designed and built my own SDSL to > EIA-530 CSU/DSU so I can use a Cisco 2500 router instead of that nasty > new-fangled Netopia which has (oh horror!) RJ45 Ethernet instead of > proper AUI. Oh, did I forget to mention that my Ethernet is coaxial? > To me all that UTP stuff isn't true Ethernet. I call Poe's Law on this one. Mostly because I can't tell which side this one is on. ;) pgpM4AMhIkK30.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: "Is TDM going the way of dial-up?"
On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 10:44 AM, joel jaeggli wrote: > On 3/26/2010 8:15 AM, Rick Ernst wrote: >> >> I've noticed over the last 3 years or so that TDM, specifically T-1, >> access >> and transport has been in a steady decline. Customers are moving to FTTH >> and cable, or going WiMAX and Metro-Ethernet. Ethernet seems to have >> taken >> an even bigger bite out of DS-3. The bigger pipes seem to favor ethernet. >> A >> recent upgrade from OC-3 to GigE transport actually saved us a large chunk >> of money. >> >> I'm wondering if others are seeing the same behavior, if it's >> market-dependant, or if I'm just imagining things. I'm working on >> building >> new infrastructure and my current thoughts are to minimize my TDM >> footprint. It would be useful to get a better feel if this is an overall >> trend or something local. >> > > Why I think it comes down to is do you want to use frame-relay, atm, sdh and > ethernet when you can just use ethernet? > > lan-phy ethernet has economies of scale that result in lower cost along > virtually every dimension relative to the alternatives. > >> Thoughts? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Diversity, in case of locations meant to be used as each other's backup/failover ***Stefan Mititelu http://twitter.com/netfortius http://www.linkedin.com/in/netfortius
Re: "Is TDM going the way of dial-up?"
Kevin Oberman wrote: > And, if you are using a 1988 TCP stack on a 4.3 system, you are not > likely to ever efficiently utilize a higher speed link What higher speed link? I'm very happy with 384 kbps symmetric, using SDSL as ARPANET replacement. I have designed and built my own SDSL to EIA-530 CSU/DSU so I can use a Cisco 2500 router instead of that nasty new-fangled Netopia which has (oh horror!) RJ45 Ethernet instead of proper AUI. Oh, did I forget to mention that my Ethernet is coaxial? To me all that UTP stuff isn't true Ethernet. > and will not > behave well on any link. TCP has come a long way in the past 12 > years. (Of course, I can't guess what "mostly unchanged" means.) Backward compatibility rules! MS
Re: "Is TDM going the way of dial-up?"
> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 16:43:23 GMT > From: msoko...@ivan.harhan.org (Michael Sokolov) > > Rick Ernst wrote: > > > I've noticed over the last 3 years or so that TDM, specifically T-1, access > > and transport has been in a steady decline. Customers are moving to FTTH > > and cable, or going WiMAX and Metro-Ethernet. Ethernet seems to have taken > > an even bigger bite out of DS-3. The bigger pipes seem to favor ethernet. A > > recent upgrade from OC-3 to GigE transport actually saved us a large chunk > > of money. > > > > I'm wondering if others are seeing the same behavior, if it's > > market-dependant, or if I'm just imagining things. > > Unfortunately what you are seeing is indeed where the world is going, > and it is extremely painful to watch. My personal preference is the > direct opposite of that: Ethernet for non-LAN use is my very antithesis, > I hate it to the core of my being. V.35/HDLC forever for me! I will > continue using HDLC over traditional synchronous serial WAN media for as > long as I am alive. > > MS > > P.S. This message is being sent from a VAX running a variant of 4.3BSD > (Quasijarus). Almost the entire ARPA Internet software stack that's > running on my VAXen is mostly unchanged from how it was in 1988. Much as I love Sonet and the like, I will channel Randy and say that I hope all of my competitors do this. (OK. We really don't have competitors.) And, if you are using a 1988 TCP stack on a 4.3 system, you are not likely to ever efficiently utilize a higher speed link and will not behave well on any link. TCP has come a long way in the past 12 years. (Of course, I can't guess what "mostly unchanged" means.) -- R. Kevin Oberman, Network Engineer Energy Sciences Network (ESnet) Ernest O. Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (Berkeley Lab) E-mail: ober...@es.net Phone: +1 510 486-8634 Key fingerprint:059B 2DDF 031C 9BA3 14A4 EADA 927D EBB3 987B 3751
Re: "Is TDM going the way of dial-up?"
On Fri, 26 Mar 2010, valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote: On Fri, 26 Mar 2010 11:35:37 EDT, "Justin M. Streiner" said: I don't see TDM going away entirely any time soon because it still comes in handy for things like out-of-band management, etc, plus nowadays there is lots of TDM gear on the secondary market that can be picked up dirt-cheap. All the same, the price of gear dropping through the floor on the secondary market is usually a pretty good indication that the technology is played out, because supply-and-demand says that demand for the gear will keep the price propped up until the demand goes away - which usually means the tech is played out. I don't know too many people who build their out-of-band management networks out of the latest and greatest gear. There are tons of Cisco 2511s, 2611s, etc that have been given second lives as terminal servers. There are also lots of areas where Ethernet transports are either ridiculously expensive because the carrier wants me to partially subsidize their initial build costs, or it's just flat-out not available. There are also areas where I've seen it delivered over n x STS-1's bonded together, so the Ethernet frames are still riding over a SONET transport in many cases. jms
Re: "Is TDM going the way of dial-up?"
On Fri, 26 Mar 2010 11:35:37 EDT, "Justin M. Streiner" said: > I don't see TDM going away entirely any time soon because it still comes > in handy for things like out-of-band management, etc, plus nowadays there > is lots of TDM gear on the secondary market that can be picked up > dirt-cheap. All the same, the price of gear dropping through the floor on the secondary market is usually a pretty good indication that the technology is played out, because supply-and-demand says that demand for the gear will keep the price propped up until the demand goes away - which usually means the tech is played out. Anybody got a counter-example? ;) pgpfVptIBk0DV.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: "Is TDM going the way of dial-up?"
Rick Ernst wrote: > I've noticed over the last 3 years or so that TDM, specifically T-1, access > and transport has been in a steady decline. Customers are moving to FTTH > and cable, or going WiMAX and Metro-Ethernet. Ethernet seems to have taken > an even bigger bite out of DS-3. The bigger pipes seem to favor ethernet. A > recent upgrade from OC-3 to GigE transport actually saved us a large chunk > of money. > > I'm wondering if others are seeing the same behavior, if it's > market-dependant, or if I'm just imagining things. Unfortunately what you are seeing is indeed where the world is going, and it is extremely painful to watch. My personal preference is the direct opposite of that: Ethernet for non-LAN use is my very antithesis, I hate it to the core of my being. V.35/HDLC forever for me! I will continue using HDLC over traditional synchronous serial WAN media for as long as I am alive. MS P.S. This message is being sent from a VAX running a variant of 4.3BSD (Quasijarus). Almost the entire ARPA Internet software stack that's running on my VAXen is mostly unchanged from how it was in 1988.
Re: "Is TDM going the way of dial-up?"
Apologies for the gibberish of my previous message. Here's The URL that never made it to the list that contains the article I referenced and my footer note: [1]http://siliconinvestor.advfn.com/readmsg.aspx?msgid=26408512 --- fr...@fttx.org wrote: From: "Frank A. Coluccio" To: "Michael Thomas" Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: "Is TDM going the way of dial-up?" Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 09:10:37 -0700 re: "what is the state of voip-over-cellular as essentially the last holdout of TDM? Will the new 4G stuff be able to support latencies, etc? Has the work on handovers-over-IP matured enough that it's viable?" One of the biggest hurdles in bringing Ethernet to mobile/cellular apps has been its lack of synchronous capabilities. This is now being overcome in a variety of ways, both IETF-instigated and at IEEE, and through some proprietary solutions where vendors are re-introducing system clocking. See my footer note that addresses this subject at the bottom of [1]this message. --- m...@mtcc.com wrote: From: Michael Thomas To: Steve Meuse Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: "Is TDM going the way of dial-up?" Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 08:33:38 -0700 On 03/26/2010 08:26 AM, Steve Meuse wrote: > Rick Ernst expunged (na...@shreddedmail.com): > >> I'm wondering if others are seeing the same behavior, if it's >> market-dependant, or if I'm just imagining things. I'm working on building >> new infrastructure and my current thoughts are to minimize my TDM >> footprint. It would be useful to get a better feel if this is an overall >> trend or something local. > > You aren't imagining things. In fact, some large national networks have been designed to support solely ethernet. It comes down to cost, as always Speaking of which, what is the state of voip-over-cellular as essentially the last holdout of TDM? Will the new 4G stuff be able to support latencies, etc? Has the work on handovers-over-IP matured enough that it's viable? Mike References 1. http://siliconinvestor.advfn.com/readmsg.aspx?msgid=26408512 References 1. http://siliconinvestor.advfn.com/readmsg.aspx?msgid=26408512
Re: "Is TDM going the way of dial-up?"
re: "what is the state of voip-over-cellular as essentially the last holdout of TDM? Will the new 4G stuff be able to support latencies, etc? Has the work on handovers-over-IP matured enough that it's viable?" One of the biggest hurdles in bringing Ethernet to mobile/cellular apps has been its lack of synchronous capabilities. This is now being overcome in a variety of ways, both IETF-instigated and at IEEE, and through some proprietary solutions where vendors are re-introducing system clocking. See my footer note that addresses this subject at the bottom of [1]this message. --- m...@mtcc.com wrote: From: Michael Thomas To: Steve Meuse Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: "Is TDM going the way of dial-up?" Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 08:33:38 -0700 On 03/26/2010 08:26 AM, Steve Meuse wrote: > Rick Ernst expunged (na...@shreddedmail.com): > >> I'm wondering if others are seeing the same behavior, if it's >> market-dependant, or if I'm just imagining things. I'm working on building >> new infrastructure and my current thoughts are to minimize my TDM >> footprint. It would be useful to get a better feel if this is an overall >> trend or something local. > > You aren't imagining things. In fact, some large national networks have been designed to support solely ethernet. It comes down to cost, as always Speaking of which, what is the state of voip-over-cellular as essentially the last holdout of TDM? Will the new 4G stuff be able to support latencies, etc? Has the work on handovers-over-IP matured enough that it's viable? Mike References 1. http://siliconinvestor.advfn.com/readmsg.aspx?msgid=26408512
Re: "Is TDM going the way of dial-up?"
On Mar 26, 2010, at 11:44 AM, Olsen, Jason wrote: >> From: Rick Ernst [mailto:na...@shreddedmail.com] > > >> an even bigger bite out of DS-3. The bigger pipes seem to favor >> ethernet. A recent upgrade from OC-3 to GigE transport actually saved > us a large >> chunk of money. > > We recently had exactly the opposite experience, unfortunately. During > relocation of our datacenter we asked our MPLS WAN provider to provide > GigE transport rather than the multiple OC-3s we were using today. To us > it seemed like it would be cheaper - GigE interfaces, even WAN-PHY rated > ones, were orders of magnitude cheaper than SONET. Unfortunately the > provider came back with absolutely outrageous costs for the port, > claiming they had to do non-standard agreements with incumbents to > provide the lines to us (despite the amount of circuits already in the > site). > > This may be more a function of that particular provider, however. What I've been hearing rumors of is --- unregulated services (eg: gigaman, opteman) typically have a better price-point if you are going with the carrier of choice. TDM services (DSn/OCn) where there is a standard interconnection method tend to have higher costs than ethernet services, but are available when you have multiple carriers involved. (eg: VZ/MCI/XO/QWEST to SBC/ATT) territory. I see this as a two-fold issue, one, the carriers (ATT) are trying to provide an incentive for shifting away from the TDM based services. At the same time, it's more difficult to deliver service if you're not building to the market. I would take into account the filing that ATT gave to the FCC recently asking to set a sunset date for their POTS (read: TDM) network elements. This will allow them to leave the markets that are unprofitable, while delivering the unregulated (ethernet/IP) services where it currently is profitable. - Jared
Re: "Is TDM going the way of dial-up?"
Dylan Ebner expunged (dylan.eb...@crlmed.com): > Funny thing about this is we have been steadily getting rid of all of our t1 > and ds3 circuits and replacing them with metro-e or cable based services at > much better price/Mbs. However, when we went to VOIP and wanted to do sip > trunking with qwest, they needed to deliver this over t1, otherwise is wasn't > cost effective. E911 was a sticky point for us. We ended up having to install some small boxes to do T1 handoff to our provider of choice, they didn't have any ethernet options (which we pushed for). -Steve
RE: "Is TDM going the way of dial-up?"
> From: Rick Ernst [mailto:na...@shreddedmail.com] > an even bigger bite out of DS-3. The bigger pipes seem to favor > ethernet. A recent upgrade from OC-3 to GigE transport actually saved us a large > chunk of money. We recently had exactly the opposite experience, unfortunately. During relocation of our datacenter we asked our MPLS WAN provider to provide GigE transport rather than the multiple OC-3s we were using today. To us it seemed like it would be cheaper - GigE interfaces, even WAN-PHY rated ones, were orders of magnitude cheaper than SONET. Unfortunately the provider came back with absolutely outrageous costs for the port, claiming they had to do non-standard agreements with incumbents to provide the lines to us (despite the amount of circuits already in the site). This may be more a function of that particular provider, however.
RE: "Is TDM going the way of dial-up?"
Funny thing about this is we have been steadily getting rid of all of our t1 and ds3 circuits and replacing them with metro-e or cable based services at much better price/Mbs. However, when we went to VOIP and wanted to do sip trunking with qwest, they needed to deliver this over t1, otherwise is wasn't cost effective. Dylan Ebner -Original Message- From: Rick Ernst [mailto:na...@shreddedmail.com] Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 10:16 AM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: "Is TDM going the way of dial-up?" I've noticed over the last 3 years or so that TDM, specifically T-1, access and transport has been in a steady decline. Customers are moving to FTTH and cable, or going WiMAX and Metro-Ethernet. Ethernet seems to have taken an even bigger bite out of DS-3. The bigger pipes seem to favor ethernet. A recent upgrade from OC-3 to GigE transport actually saved us a large chunk of money. I'm wondering if others are seeing the same behavior, if it's market-dependant, or if I'm just imagining things. I'm working on building new infrastructure and my current thoughts are to minimize my TDM footprint. It would be useful to get a better feel if this is an overall trend or something local. Thoughts? Thanks,
Re: "Is TDM going the way of dial-up?"
On 3/26/2010 8:15 AM, Rick Ernst wrote: I've noticed over the last 3 years or so that TDM, specifically T-1, access and transport has been in a steady decline. Customers are moving to FTTH and cable, or going WiMAX and Metro-Ethernet. Ethernet seems to have taken an even bigger bite out of DS-3. The bigger pipes seem to favor ethernet. A recent upgrade from OC-3 to GigE transport actually saved us a large chunk of money. I'm wondering if others are seeing the same behavior, if it's market-dependant, or if I'm just imagining things. I'm working on building new infrastructure and my current thoughts are to minimize my TDM footprint. It would be useful to get a better feel if this is an overall trend or something local. Why I think it comes down to is do you want to use frame-relay, atm, sdh and ethernet when you can just use ethernet? lan-phy ethernet has economies of scale that result in lower cost along virtually every dimension relative to the alternatives. Thoughts? Thanks,
Re: "Is TDM going the way of dial-up?"
On Fri, 26 Mar 2010, Rick Ernst wrote: I've noticed over the last 3 years or so that TDM, specifically T-1, access and transport has been in a steady decline. Customers are moving to FTTH and cable, or going WiMAX and Metro-Ethernet. Ethernet seems to have taken an even bigger bite out of DS-3. The bigger pipes seem to favor ethernet. A recent upgrade from OC-3 to GigE transport actually saved us a large chunk of money. I'm wondering if others are seeing the same behavior, if it's market-dependant, or if I'm just imagining things. I'm working on building new infrastructure and my current thoughts are to minimize my TDM footprint. It would be useful to get a better feel if this is an overall trend or something local. I tend to think this is market dependent. In major population centers, TDM service may well be on the decline, but I'd suspect that Ethernet based services have a much lower penetration in areas with lower population densities. I don't see TDM going away entirely any time soon because it still comes in handy for things like out-of-band management, etc, plus nowadays there is lots of TDM gear on the secondary market that can be picked up dirt-cheap. jms
Re: "Is TDM going the way of dial-up?"
Steve Meuse wrote: I'm wondering if others are seeing the same behavior, if it's market-dependant, or if I'm just imagining things. I'm working on building new infrastructure and my current thoughts are to minimize my TDM footprint. It would be useful to get a better feel if this is an overall trend or something local. You aren't imagining things. In fact, some large national networks have been des igned to support solely ethernet. It comes down to cost, as always -Steve Actually, a lot of people would be shocked at just how much VoIP is now used to transport voice with TDM only occurring at the last mile and in many cases at the last foot. Anyone designing a voice infrastructure would be best to design it for VoIP. Your ROI is much much greater. If you need to use TDM, then do so only at the edge as close to the TDM equipment as possible. Of course if you are going to use VoIP through-out an infrastructure it certainly is a good idea to get familiar with QoS provisioning. Bret
Re: "Is TDM going the way of dial-up?"
On 03/26/2010 08:26 AM, Steve Meuse wrote: Rick Ernst expunged (na...@shreddedmail.com): I'm wondering if others are seeing the same behavior, if it's market-dependant, or if I'm just imagining things. I'm working on building new infrastructure and my current thoughts are to minimize my TDM footprint. It would be useful to get a better feel if this is an overall trend or something local. You aren't imagining things. In fact, some large national networks have been designed to support solely ethernet. It comes down to cost, as always Speaking of which, what is the state of voip-over-cellular as essentially the last holdout of TDM? Will the new 4G stuff be able to support latencies, etc? Has the work on handovers-over-IP matured enough that it's viable? Mike
Re: "Is TDM going the way of dial-up?"
On 03/26/2010 08:26 AM, Steve Meuse wrote: Rick Ernst expunged (na...@shreddedmail.com): I'm wondering if others are seeing the same behavior, if it's market-dependant, or if I'm just imagining things. I'm working on building new infrastructure and my current thoughts are to minimize my TDM footprint. It would be useful to get a better feel if this is an overall trend or something local. You aren't imagining things. In fact, some large national networks have been designed to support solely ethernet. It comes down to cost, as always Speaking of which, what is the state of voip-over-cellular as essentially the last holdout of TDM? Will the new 4G stuff be able to support latencies, etc? Has the work on handovers-over-IP matured enough that it's viable? Mike
Re: "Is TDM going the way of dial-up?"
Rick Ernst expunged (na...@shreddedmail.com): > I'm wondering if others are seeing the same behavior, if it's > market-dependant, or if I'm just imagining things. I'm working on building > new infrastructure and my current thoughts are to minimize my TDM > footprint. It would be useful to get a better feel if this is an overall > trend or something local. You aren't imagining things. In fact, some large national networks have been designed to support solely ethernet. It comes down to cost, as always -Steve
"Is TDM going the way of dial-up?"
I've noticed over the last 3 years or so that TDM, specifically T-1, access and transport has been in a steady decline. Customers are moving to FTTH and cable, or going WiMAX and Metro-Ethernet. Ethernet seems to have taken an even bigger bite out of DS-3. The bigger pipes seem to favor ethernet. A recent upgrade from OC-3 to GigE transport actually saved us a large chunk of money. I'm wondering if others are seeing the same behavior, if it's market-dependant, or if I'm just imagining things. I'm working on building new infrastructure and my current thoughts are to minimize my TDM footprint. It would be useful to get a better feel if this is an overall trend or something local. Thoughts? Thanks,
