Re: Quality of the internet
For safety! Reminds me of bonding channels in an ISDN line. We had to keep them all apart. For their own protection. -Ben > On Jun 18, 2020, at 6:18 AM, Mark Tinka wrote: > > > >> On 18/Jun/20 14:49, Bill Woodcock wrote: >> >> What time was that? > > Back when a 12000 GSR chassis had one line card in slot 0 for the public > Internet, and another in slot 5 for the MPLS backbone. They had to be > that far apart, for safety :-)... > > Mark. >
Re: Quality of the internet
On 18/Jun/20 14:56, Saku Ytti wrote: > Somewhere between 2000..2005 I personally still delivered customer > connections that needed that. But we were providing 64kbps still to > some odd locations, like paper mill in the middle of nowhere. I also > needed to do MLPPP over 2*64kbps so that serialising single 1500B > doesn't take too long (PPP could fragment it to two and send parallel, > improving UX). VoIP was legalized in South Africa in 2005. The moment that happened, VoIP operators sprung up, and businesses began dumping POTS services and moved over to VoIP. In those days, a 64Kbps leased line was the gold standard; major props if you had anything more than that; bow-downs if you had 256Kbps or 512Kbps. We're talking +/- US$1,500/month for a 64Kbps at the time, when the US$-ZAR exchange rate was 1:6.65. Customers were willing to pay all that cash back then, because all these shiny new TDP-based (Tag Distribution Protocol, for the ones who remember, before it became the LDP standard) MPLS networks were the guarantors of QoS, and to ensure your VoIP service always received a steady 16Kbps to deliver two simultaneous phone calls between Jo'burg and Durban, cash left wallets. It was still cheaper than paying the telco for an E1. And of course, there was an eerie eagerness to stick it to the telco :-). Oh, how far we've come. Mark.
Re: Quality of the internet
On 18/Jun/20 14:49, Bill Woodcock wrote: > What time was that? Back when a 12000 GSR chassis had one line card in slot 0 for the public Internet, and another in slot 5 for the MPLS backbone. They had to be that far apart, for safety :-)... Mark. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Quality of the internet
On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 at 15:49, Bill Woodcock wrote: > > On Jun 18, 2020, at 2:28 PM, Saku Ytti wrote: > > No one needs strict priority queues anymore, which was absolutely > > needed at one point in time. > > What time was that? Somewhere between 2000..2005 I personally still delivered customer connections that needed that. But we were providing 64kbps still to some odd locations, like paper mill in the middle of nowhere. I also needed to do MLPPP over 2*64kbps so that serialising single 1500B doesn't take too long (PPP could fragment it to two and send parallel, improving UX). -- ++ytti
Re: Quality of the internet
Hi, in our region (CIS, eastern Europe) we still have issues with overloaded international transport and bad quality of international channels from time to time (especially at the beginning of COVID19). While Internet looks slow, but still usable, this case VoIP goes really bad. Our regional specific is strong and very cheap internal (inside country) connectivity. So one of solution can be join local IXes by dedicated L2 (DWDM) channels. Ask me off-list if you want some help/solutions ;) 17.06.20 23:47, Dovid Bender пише: Hi, My 9-5 is working for a VoIP provider. When we started in 2006 we had a lot of issues with the quality of the internet in eastern europe and central Asia. It was not rare for us to have to play around with routing to get the quality that we needed. In a review of tickets for the last two years it seems as if we barely do any of that these days. Rarely do we get a quality complaint that comes back to an issue where a carrier or ISP dropping or mangling packets. Has anyone else observed this as well?
Re: Quality of the internet
> On Jun 18, 2020, at 2:28 PM, Saku Ytti wrote: > No one needs strict priority queues anymore, which was absolutely > needed at one point in time. What time was that? -Bill signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP
Re: Quality of the internet
On 18/Jun/20 14:28, Saku Ytti wrote: > ACK. Good Internet is almost an emergent feature, not something we > really designed for. The main remaining problems are congested > peerings, which is a silly political problem which ends up hurting > customers and not helping anyone. It's easier to keep selling bandwidth to people than to find another model from which to make money. That, as network operators, is our fate :-). > No one needs strict priority queues anymore, which was absolutely > needed at one point in time. > > We are not in a market which cares about QoS,... I was just thinking about this 2 years ago, when we sold more and more IP services than anything else, despite a market with aggressive price points, e.t.c., to the extent that while we still build all our nodes with PHB-DSCP/EXP, with all the usual EF, AF, BE queues and 33% policing on EF queues and LLQ forwarding on EF queues, and all the rest, in practice, we don't really need them anymore. We either over-provision capacity to the point where those QoS policies never kick in, or (and more likely), all traffic is public Internet, which lives in BE. Basic policing/shaping/queueing of customer traffic at the edge is pretty stable; we haven't needed a new QoS feature in that space for over 8 years. So when vendors are trying to sell new line cards with enhanced QoS scale, it makes me wonder. Unless it's for BNG deployments where millions of customers need to be dumped in specific queues, which isn't for us, and which I doubt many of the up-and-coming mom & pop FTTH service providers can afford anyway. > yet our BE is globally > <200us max jitter on a typical day and AF is <50us. Average jitter > being under 10us. So if I'd have HW timestamping NTP server and > client, I could synchronise clocks over IP transit cross continents to > ten microsecond accuracy. I think this is pretty crazy. And I'm sure > anyone who measures, measures similar numbers, this would have sounded > scifi 20 years ago. > As a context, Zoom recommends a jitter of 40ms or better, or 4us. Which is a good point. Sitting at my house in Jo'burg, my Zoom calls are typically served out of some data centre in Paris (161ms from my house) or Amsterdam (176ms from my house). I've tracked this for months now, my jitter on Zoom calls is 1ms - 2ms, steady. The case for EF queues to deliver VoIP calls between a customer and PABX sitting 1ms apart simply doesn't track anymore. Either the network already does it due to all the over-engineering, or the traffic goes over the Public Internet anyway as folk migrate for cost, convenience and value reasons. Mark.
Re: Quality of the internet
> I think, on the whole, as current-production routers have migrated away > from software-based forwarding in recent years into hardware planes, as ACK. Good Internet is almost an emergent feature, not something we really designed for. The main remaining problems are congested peerings, which is a silly political problem which ends up hurting customers and not helping anyone. No one needs strict priority queues anymore, which was absolutely needed at one point in time. We are not in a market which cares about QoS, yet our BE is globally <200us max jitter on a typical day and AF is <50us. Average jitter being under 10us. So if I'd have HW timestamping NTP server and client, I could synchronise clocks over IP transit cross continents to ten microsecond accuracy. I think this is pretty crazy. And I'm sure anyone who measures, measures similar numbers, this would have sounded scifi 20 years ago. As a context, Zoom recommends a jitter of 40ms or better, or 4us. -- ++ytti
Re: Quality of the internet
On 17/Jun/20 22:47, Dovid Bender wrote: > Hi, > > My 9-5 is working for a VoIP provider. When we started in 2006 we had > a lot of issues with the quality of the internet in eastern europe and > central Asia. It was not rare for us to have to play around with > routing to get the quality that we needed. In a review of tickets for > the last two years it seems as if we barely do any of that these days. > Rarely do we get a quality complaint that comes back to an issue where > a carrier or ISP dropping or mangling packets. Has anyone else > observed this as well? I think, on the whole, as current-production routers have migrated away from software-based forwarding in recent years into hardware planes, as more submarine cables have been laid to all continents, as more exchange points have been built, as mobile networks have moved from being voice to becoming data transport networks, and as the cloud and content providers have shifted the local/regional Internet eco system upon their arrival, it's not unreasonable to conclude that the overall quality of the Internet has made a marked improvement. It feels like I operated a satellite-based IP/MPLS network for a whole country millions of years ago, and yet it was just as recent as 2007. It's impressive how much we have moved forward, as a community, in that space of time. Mark.
Re: Quality of the internet
I think all the eyeball networks moving to work with CDNs a bit better helped alleviate the congestion on the transit / peering links. DOCSIS 3.1 helped tremendously with jitter issues as well as fiber xPON being deployed by the telcos. Transit costs have dropped significantly. So it doesn't seem like the eyeball networks are running links as hot as they were before. We do still ask our transit account reps or NOCs where they see chronic congestion and usually get a straight forward response. We have seen blips with customers on smaller rural ISPs in both the US and Canada every now and then but it usually clears up in a day or so which probably means it was backhaul transport issue. On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 2:11 PM Dovid Bender wrote: > Yes. We have gotten a lot fo complaints today. Can't seem to nail it down. > Random PL. > > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:52 PM Izzy Goldstein - TeleGo < > igoldst...@telego.net> wrote: > >> now you mentioned it, verizon fios is having issues in NY ? >> >> On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:50 PM Dovid Bender wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> My 9-5 is working for a VoIP provider. When we started in 2006 we had a >>> lot of issues with the quality of the internet in eastern europe and >>> central Asia. It was not rare for us to have to play around with routing to >>> get the quality that we needed. In a review of tickets for the last two >>> years it seems as if we barely do any of that these days. Rarely do we get >>> a quality complaint that comes back to an issue where a carrier or ISP >>> dropping or mangling packets. Has anyone else observed this as well? >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> Izzy Goldstein >> >> Chief Technology Officer >> >> Main: (212) 477-1000 x 2085 <(212)%20477-1000> >> >> Direct: (929) 477-2085 >> >> Website: www.telego.com <http://www.telego.net/> >> >> >> <http://www.telego.com/> >> >> >> Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail may contain confidential and/or >> privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient or have >> received this e-mail in error please notify us immediately by email reply >> and destroy this e-mail. Any unauthorized copying, disclosure or >> distribution of the material in this e-mail is strictly forbidden. Any >> views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author >> and do not necessarily represent those of TeleGo (T). Employees of TeleGo >> are expressly required not to make defamatory statements and not to >> infringe or authorize any infringement of copyright or any other legal >> right by email communications. Any such communication is contrary to TeleGo >> policy and outside the scope of the employment of the individual concerned. >> TeleGo will not accept any liability in respect of such communication, and >> the employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other >> liability arising. >> >> >> TeleGo Hosted PBX <https://youtu.be/DaT8YAZ4V0w> >> >
Re: Quality of the internet
Yes. We have gotten a lot fo complaints today. Can't seem to nail it down. Random PL. On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:52 PM Izzy Goldstein - TeleGo < igoldst...@telego.net> wrote: > now you mentioned it, verizon fios is having issues in NY ? > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:50 PM Dovid Bender wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> My 9-5 is working for a VoIP provider. When we started in 2006 we had a >> lot of issues with the quality of the internet in eastern europe and >> central Asia. It was not rare for us to have to play around with routing to >> get the quality that we needed. In a review of tickets for the last two >> years it seems as if we barely do any of that these days. Rarely do we get >> a quality complaint that comes back to an issue where a carrier or ISP >> dropping or mangling packets. Has anyone else observed this as well? >> >> >> > > -- > > Izzy Goldstein > > Chief Technology Officer > > Main: (212) 477-1000 x 2085 <(212)%20477-1000> > > Direct: (929) 477-2085 > > Website: www.telego.com <http://www.telego.net/> > > > <http://www.telego.com/> > > > Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail may contain confidential and/or > privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient or have > received this e-mail in error please notify us immediately by email reply > and destroy this e-mail. Any unauthorized copying, disclosure or > distribution of the material in this e-mail is strictly forbidden. Any > views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author > and do not necessarily represent those of TeleGo (T). Employees of TeleGo > are expressly required not to make defamatory statements and not to > infringe or authorize any infringement of copyright or any other legal > right by email communications. Any such communication is contrary to TeleGo > policy and outside the scope of the employment of the individual concerned. > TeleGo will not accept any liability in respect of such communication, and > the employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other > liability arising. > > > TeleGo Hosted PBX <https://youtu.be/DaT8YAZ4V0w> >
Re: Quality of the internet
now you mentioned it, verizon fios is having issues in NY ? On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:50 PM Dovid Bender wrote: > Hi, > > My 9-5 is working for a VoIP provider. When we started in 2006 we had a > lot of issues with the quality of the internet in eastern europe and > central Asia. It was not rare for us to have to play around with routing to > get the quality that we needed. In a review of tickets for the last two > years it seems as if we barely do any of that these days. Rarely do we get > a quality complaint that comes back to an issue where a carrier or ISP > dropping or mangling packets. Has anyone else observed this as well? > > > -- Izzy Goldstein Chief Technology Officer Main: (212) 477-1000 x 2085 <(212)%20477-1000> Direct: (929) 477-2085 Website: www.telego.com <http://www.telego.net/> <http://www.telego.com/> Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient or have received this e-mail in error please notify us immediately by email reply and destroy this e-mail. Any unauthorized copying, disclosure or distribution of the material in this e-mail is strictly forbidden. Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of TeleGo (T). Employees of TeleGo are expressly required not to make defamatory statements and not to infringe or authorize any infringement of copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Any such communication is contrary to TeleGo policy and outside the scope of the employment of the individual concerned. TeleGo will not accept any liability in respect of such communication, and the employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability arising. TeleGo Hosted PBX <https://youtu.be/DaT8YAZ4V0w>
Quality of the internet
Hi, My 9-5 is working for a VoIP provider. When we started in 2006 we had a lot of issues with the quality of the internet in eastern europe and central Asia. It was not rare for us to have to play around with routing to get the quality that we needed. In a review of tickets for the last two years it seems as if we barely do any of that these days. Rarely do we get a quality complaint that comes back to an issue where a carrier or ISP dropping or mangling packets. Has anyone else observed this as well?
