Re: Quick Update on the North American BCOP Efforts

[Rich Kulawiec]

On Thu, Oct 01, 2015 at 09:58:49AM -0500, Roland Dobbins wrote:
> So, educating folks to the point that they understand that the
> problem space exists is The Problem, writ large.

I strongly concur with this.  While there are some amazing experts out
there who provide exemplary models of how to run an X, for many values of
X, they're becoming increasingly rare as large entities engage in a race
to the bottom.  We now accept as "routine" problems (including massive,
systemic, persistent problems) that would have never been tolerated
by the community years ago, and in part we accept this because lots of
folks don't know that they shouldn't.

Today's example: http://www.spamhaus.org/sbl/listings/amazon.com

At least they're not in the Top 10 worst spam-sourcing networks like
they were just a few weeks ago, but how can anyone at Amazon sleep
at night while this situation exists?  Do they not grasp how
unprofessional and unethical it is to allow this situation to persist?

The same can be said of many other operational issues, and I don't
mean the normal level of oops-that-was-wrong mistakes that we're all
prone to; we'll never get rid of all of those.  I mean the things
that are way wrong and stay wrong because folks are doing their best
to put their fingers in their ears and avoid hearing about them.
(I'm looking at you, Google.)

So yes, BCOP efforts are laudable and good and every other positive
thing; but unless we (for a large value of "we") start imposing
consequences for bad/wrong/stupid behavior, they will be ignored.
Their existence won't even be noted.   Their relevance won't be grasped. 

Bill Cole nailed it when he wrote:

Current Peeve: The mindset that the Internet is some sort of
school for novice sysadmins and that everyone *not* doing stupid
dangerous things should act like patient teachers with the ones
who are.

---rsk

Re: Quick Update on the North American BCOP Efforts

[Randy Bush]

> If NANOG isn't developing and publishing BCOPs, what's the point of
> NANOG other than a mailing list?

what more point do you need?  it has been a very successful and useful
mailing list for a few decades.

ripe has been the ops document repo since before this mailing list
existed.  it works well.  half-assed jealousy will get us nowhere.

randy

Re: Quick Update on the North American BCOP Efforts

[Harald Koch]

On 1 October 2015 at 00:37, Chris Grundemann  wrote:

>
> Those that have the information are mostly busy
> engineers, for whom writing documentation is not their favorite thing.
>

There's also the issue that if you ask two NANOG engineers a technical
question you'll get (at least) five answers...

Re: Quick Update on the North American BCOP Efforts

[Yardiel Fuentes]

I wouldn't call it an issue.. it is precisely the potential multiplicity of
practices which gives strong value to a "best Common Operational Practice"
...  that was the experience working towards ratifying a DDoS/DoS BCOP ...
and the BCOP keeps improving... all for the benefit of the Net Ops
community...

Yardiel Fuentes

On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 9:35 AM, Harald Koch  wrote:

> On 1 October 2015 at 00:37, Chris Grundemann 
> wrote:
>
> >
> > Those that have the information are mostly busy
> > engineers, for whom writing documentation is not their favorite thing.
> >
>
> There's also the issue that if you ask two NANOG engineers a technical
> question you'll get (at least) five answers...
>



-- 
Yardiel Fuentes

Re: Quick Update on the North American BCOP Efforts

[Roland Dobbins]

On 30 Sep 2015, at 23:37, Chris Grundemann wrote:

The problem is twofold. Those that care the most are the ones who need 
the information, not those who have it

(for obvious reasons).


My view is the opposite - that those who have enough expertise, 
experience, and vision to understand the problem space have already done 
these things (to the degree that they can do so within the constraints 
of their respective organizations), and the people who don't know don't 
even understand that the problem space exists in the first place.


So, educating folks to the point that they understand that the problem 
space exists is The Problem, writ large.


---
Roland Dobbins 

Re: Quick Update on the North American BCOP Efforts

[Paul Ferguson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On 9/30/2015 8:25 PM, Jay Ashworth wrote:

> Guessing no one cares.


Darwinism.

- - ferg


- -- 
Paul Ferguson
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Re: Quick Update on the North American BCOP Efforts

[Jay Ashworth]

- Original Message -
> From: "Chris Grundemann" 

> After receiving several off-line inquiries about the status of BCOP in
> North America I think it's appropriate to send a general announcement
> here.
> 
> The biggest news here is that the current NANOG Board of Directors has
> disbanded the NANOG BCOP Committee. The stated rationale for this
> decision can be found in the minutes from their 2 February 2015 meeting.

I tried it 5 or 6 years ago:

  http://bestpractices.wikia.com

I didn't get any traction either.

Guessing no one cares.

Cheers,
-- jra
-- 
Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink   j...@baylink.com
Designer The Things I Think   RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates   http://www.bcp38.info  2000 Land Rover DII
St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727 647 1274

Re: Quick Update on the North American BCOP Efforts

[Chris Grundemann]

On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 11:25 PM, Jay Ashworth  wrote:

> - Original Message -
> > From: "Chris Grundemann" 
>
> > After receiving several off-line inquiries about the status of BCOP in
> > North America I think it's appropriate to send a general announcement
> > here.
> >
> > The biggest news here is that the current NANOG Board of Directors has
> > disbanded the NANOG BCOP Committee. The stated rationale for this
> > decision can be found in the minutes from their 2 February 2015 meeting.
>
> I tried it 5 or 6 years ago:
>
>   http://bestpractices.wikia.com


We've been at this for 7 or 8 years now. Related efforts all around the
world are taking root and growing.

http://www.internetsociety.org/deploy360/projects/bcop/

You are invited to help if you have time or ideas!

>
>
> I didn't get any traction either.
>

The really disappointing part is that we have been gaining traction and now
have to re-group in this region rather than smoothly continue to build.

>
> Guessing no one cares.
>

My experience says that guess is wrong. The problem is twofold. Those that
care the most are the ones who need the information, not those who have it
(for obvious reasons). Those that have the information are mostly busy
engineers, for whom writing documentation is not their favorite thing.

Cheers,
~Chris

Quick Update on the North American BCOP Efforts

[Chris Grundemann]

Hail NANOGers!

After receiving several off-line inquiries about the status of BCOP in
North America I think it's appropriate to send a general announcement here.

The biggest news here is that the current NANOG Board of Directors has
disbanded the NANOG BCOP Committee. The stated rationale for this decision
can be found in the minutes from their 2 February 2015 meeting.

https://www.nanog.org/sites/default/files/sites/default/files/BOD-BCOPMinutes_2.2.2015.pdf

As you might expect, I find this extremely disappointing. Our reaction has
been twofold:

1) We're moving to a new home. You can now find all of the current
documents at http://nabcop.org. Everything is moving forward, despite a bit
of jostling. Please jump in and get involved!

2) I'm so disappointed by this decision, and the future course of NANOG
implied, that I've decided to run for the NANOG Board of Directors. There's
a really great slate of candidates running, so whatever your decision, I
highly encourage you to really consider your selections.

https://www.nanog.org/elections/2015/BoDcandidates

If you have any questions at all, please feel free to email me directly, or
send them to bcop-supp...@nabcop.org.

See you in Montréal!

Cheers,
~Chris

Re: Quick Update on the North American BCOP Efforts

[Roland Dobbins]

On 30 Sep 2015, at 10:17, Mike Hammett wrote:

If NANOG isn't developing and publishing BCOPs, what's the point of 
NANOG other than a mailing list?




---
Roland Dobbins 

Re: Quick Update on the North American BCOP Efforts

[Chris Grundemann]

Hi Suresh,

I believe all the information you seek is on our wiki: http://nabcop.org.
Be sure to look over the list of topics under the "Jump In" heading.

To your question about reinventing wheels specifically: There's two aspects
to that I believe.

The first is that we have no intention to "make work" by duplicating
efforts. In cases where the BCOP is already clearly defined and well
maintained, we simply want to act as curator - giving network engineers a
single place to find the information they need. In other cases, we act as
creator - bringing together subject matter experts to draft new documents
for community review.

The second aspect is that every BCOP must be rooted in existing knowledge.
BCOPs are defined by being tried and true methods for dealing with some
aspect of modern network operations. These are things that have been
presented on and discussed at NANOG. They are things that are "common
sense" to the initiated. They are also things that are profound when
discovered for the first time.

The idea here is to capture what some of us know, vet it, and make it
easily available to all of us.

Cheers,
~Chris



On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 11:25 AM, Suresh Ramasubramanian <
ops.li...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Late to the party but which best current practices were these and - as the
> board asked - how much of it reinvents the several other best practice
> wheels around?
>
> --srs
>
> > On 30-Sep-2015, at 8:47 PM, Mike Hammett <na...@ics-il.net> wrote:
> >
> > If NANOG isn't developing and publishing BCOPs, what's the point of
> NANOG other than a mailing list?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -
> > Mike Hammett
> > Intelligent Computing Solutions
> > http://www.ics-il.com
> >
> > - Original Message -
> >
> > From: "Chris Grundemann" <cgrundem...@gmail.com>
> > To: nanog@nanog.org
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2015 9:41:38 AM
> > Subject: Quick Update on the North American BCOP Efforts
> >
> > Hail NANOGers!
> >
> > After receiving several off-line inquiries about the status of BCOP in
> > North America I think it's appropriate to send a general announcement
> here.
> >
> > The biggest news here is that the current NANOG Board of Directors has
> > disbanded the NANOG BCOP Committee. The stated rationale for this
> decision
> > can be found in the minutes from their 2 February 2015 meeting.
> >
> >
> https://www.nanog.org/sites/default/files/sites/default/files/BOD-BCOPMinutes_2.2.2015.pdf
> >
> > As you might expect, I find this extremely disappointing. Our reaction
> has
> > been twofold:
> >
> > 1) We're moving to a new home. You can now find all of the current
> > documents at http://nabcop.org. Everything is moving forward, despite a
> bit
> > of jostling. Please jump in and get involved!
> >
> > 2) I'm so disappointed by this decision, and the future course of NANOG
> > implied, that I've decided to run for the NANOG Board of Directors.
> There's
> > a really great slate of candidates running, so whatever your decision, I
> > highly encourage you to really consider your selections.
> >
> > https://www.nanog.org/elections/2015/BoDcandidates
> >
> > If you have any questions at all, please feel free to email me directly,
> or
> > send them to bcop-supp...@nabcop.org.
> >
> > See you in Montréal!
> >
> > Cheers,
> > ~Chris
> >
>



-- 
@ChrisGrundemann
http://chrisgrundemann.com

Re: Quick Update on the North American BCOP Efforts

[Mike Hammett]

If NANOG isn't developing and publishing BCOPs, what's the point of NANOG other 
than a mailing list? 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

- Original Message -

From: "Chris Grundemann" <cgrundem...@gmail.com> 
To: nanog@nanog.org 
Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2015 9:41:38 AM 
Subject: Quick Update on the North American BCOP Efforts 

Hail NANOGers! 

After receiving several off-line inquiries about the status of BCOP in 
North America I think it's appropriate to send a general announcement here. 

The biggest news here is that the current NANOG Board of Directors has 
disbanded the NANOG BCOP Committee. The stated rationale for this decision 
can be found in the minutes from their 2 February 2015 meeting. 

https://www.nanog.org/sites/default/files/sites/default/files/BOD-BCOPMinutes_2.2.2015.pdf
 

As you might expect, I find this extremely disappointing. Our reaction has 
been twofold: 

1) We're moving to a new home. You can now find all of the current 
documents at http://nabcop.org. Everything is moving forward, despite a bit 
of jostling. Please jump in and get involved! 

2) I'm so disappointed by this decision, and the future course of NANOG 
implied, that I've decided to run for the NANOG Board of Directors. There's 
a really great slate of candidates running, so whatever your decision, I 
highly encourage you to really consider your selections. 

https://www.nanog.org/elections/2015/BoDcandidates 

If you have any questions at all, please feel free to email me directly, or 
send them to bcop-supp...@nabcop.org. 

See you in Montréal! 

Cheers, 
~Chris 

Re: Quick Update on the North American BCOP Efforts

[Suresh Ramasubramanian]

Late to the party but which best current practices were these and - as the 
board asked - how much of it reinvents the several other best practice wheels 
around?

--srs

> On 30-Sep-2015, at 8:47 PM, Mike Hammett <na...@ics-il.net> wrote:
> 
> If NANOG isn't developing and publishing BCOPs, what's the point of NANOG 
> other than a mailing list? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - 
> Mike Hammett 
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> http://www.ics-il.com 
> 
> - Original Message -
> 
> From: "Chris Grundemann" <cgrundem...@gmail.com> 
> To: nanog@nanog.org 
> Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2015 9:41:38 AM 
> Subject: Quick Update on the North American BCOP Efforts 
> 
> Hail NANOGers! 
> 
> After receiving several off-line inquiries about the status of BCOP in 
> North America I think it's appropriate to send a general announcement here. 
> 
> The biggest news here is that the current NANOG Board of Directors has 
> disbanded the NANOG BCOP Committee. The stated rationale for this decision 
> can be found in the minutes from their 2 February 2015 meeting. 
> 
> https://www.nanog.org/sites/default/files/sites/default/files/BOD-BCOPMinutes_2.2.2015.pdf
>  
> 
> As you might expect, I find this extremely disappointing. Our reaction has 
> been twofold: 
> 
> 1) We're moving to a new home. You can now find all of the current 
> documents at http://nabcop.org. Everything is moving forward, despite a bit 
> of jostling. Please jump in and get involved! 
> 
> 2) I'm so disappointed by this decision, and the future course of NANOG 
> implied, that I've decided to run for the NANOG Board of Directors. There's 
> a really great slate of candidates running, so whatever your decision, I 
> highly encourage you to really consider your selections. 
> 
> https://www.nanog.org/elections/2015/BoDcandidates 
> 
> If you have any questions at all, please feel free to email me directly, or 
> send them to bcop-supp...@nabcop.org. 
> 
> See you in Montréal! 
> 
> Cheers, 
> ~Chris 
>