Re: Cable Operator List

[Colton Conor]

Yes, I looked at CASA, but their small unit is the C1G, which is an 8x8 max
DOCSIS 3.0 unit. Plus they want a high price point, almost quadruple what a
16X4 Pico Digital or Harmonic's unit cost. Not seeing the value or specs
there to justify it.

On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 2:26 PM, Steven Shalita  wrote:

> Have you looked at Casa Systems?  They some smaller density MDU stuff.
>
> -Steve
>
> Sent from my iPhone. Please excuse any errors.
>
> > On Feb 9, 2016, at 12:20 PM, Colton Conor 
> wrote:
> >
> > Scott,
> >
> > Have any idea which exact vendors and model numbers are within this price
> > range? So far I have just found mini CMTS systems like the Pico and
> > Harmonic's. Both of these are a 16x4 configuration, but no mention of
> > remote MAC+PHY nor DOSIS 3.1. Then their is Huawei's solution, but still
> I
> > think that's more based on C-DOCSIS. Searching the vendors websites you
> > recommended show no results for remote MAC+PHY in a small format.
> >
> >> On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 2:44 PM, Scott Helms  wrote:
> >>
> >> Colton,
> >>
> >> D3.1 gear is just coming online right now.  If you're going to go with
> the
> >> smaller PHY+MAC approach I'd just make sure the company has plans to
> update
> >> their boxes to 3.1 in a decent (your judgement) amount of time.  Don't
> >> expect any 3.0 box to be software upgradeable to 3.1, the hardware is
> quite
> >> different.  The PHY+MAC boxes are _generally_ < $10k and some are
> talking
> >> about ~6k.
> >>
> >> All the vendors we've listed so far have plans for 3.1, but I don't
> have a
> >> timeline for any of them.  Right now the market is still trying to
> decide
> >> how modular CMTS will be rolled out, remote PHY, remote MAC+PHY, or a
> >> combination.  For example, Cisco is (for the moment) betting that remote
> >> PHY economics will be compelling for the larger operators, while Arris
> is
> >> doing both approaches.
> >>
> >>
> >> Scott Helms
> >> Chief Technology Officer
> >> ZCorum
> >> (678) 507-5000
> >> 
> >> http://twitter.com/kscotthelms
> >> 
> >>
> >> On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 3:31 PM, Colton Conor 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Is a remote MAC+PHY the same thing as a Distributed Converged Cable
> >>> Access Platform (D-CCAP) solution like Huawei is pushing? Is DOCSIS 3.1
> >>> even out, or am I looking for something that does not exist yet?
> >>>
> >>> Are these remote MAC+PHY devices in the under 10K price range that
> these
> >>> smaller all in one CMTS platforms are?
> >>>
>  On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 12:49 PM, Scott Helms 
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 1:24 PM, Colton Conor 
>  wrote:
> 
> > Yes, we are in the USA. So based on everyones recommendations, I am
> > going to stay far away from EURODOCSIS. I was told be a vendor that
> > Arris and other USA FCC certified cable modems could easily be
> flashed to
> > EURODOCIS mode, so I did not think the CPE side was that big of a
> deal (is
> > that even true). I was not aware that there were so many differences
> > besides just the channel width.
> 
>  I wish this were the case, it would make my life easier.  The problem
> is
>  that there is a diplex filter that prevents the upstream burst from
> being
>  heard by the downstream receiver and for cost purposes all the D3 and
>  earlier modems have fixed filters.  What that means is that a
> EuroDOCSIS
>  modem can (sometimes) be flashed to use 6MHz channels, but the
> reverse is
>  NOT true.  In any case we don't recommend using Euro modems that are
>  flashed to US standards in production (nor do the vendors) because
> you'll
>  see much more upstream leakage.
> 
> 
> >
> > So, assuming we are talking about DOCSIS only (and not EURODOCSIS),
> > what do you recommend? I like the idea of being able to upgrade to
> 3.1, but
> > not sure if there are any small systems capable of this? By small I
> mean
> > something that could feed less than 100 units, and be economical to
> do.
> > Cable has the advantage of cheap modems, so it's really the CMTS
> side.
> 
>  In that case I'd definitely go with a remote MAC+PHY.  That's the only
>  way you're going to get a good price point and decent performance
> unless
>  you want to use the secondary market, which actually isn't a bad idea
> right
>  now.  A used 7225 with 8x8 blades is pretty cheap, but it's
> centralized
>  CMTS that would cover ~3k subs.
> 
> >
> > Please remember I am only interested in data internet services over
> > this plant. Something that works for garden style layouts where I
> can bring
> > fiber or coaxial to the side of a garden townhome that has between 4
> to 16
> > units inside of it. The reason I 

Re: Cable Operator List

[Scott Helms]

Colton,

Huawai has one, but I can't find the product page on their site off hand.
Here's one from Sumavision:

http://en.sumavision.com/product.asp?pageID=28=712

Harmonic's small form factor CMTS is remote PHY+MAC (at least the strand
mounted version is) but keep in mind that they've been primarily selling
those boxes (especially the indoor version) to MDU operators that don't
really have out side plant so they don't market it that way.

Casa is working with Teleste on remote PHY (I don't think it's got full
layer 2 in it).

Gainspeed also has a solution:

http://www.gainspeed.com/our-solution/gainspeeds-virtual-ccap-architecture/


Also, keep in mind that no one is going to be yelling about D3.1 until they
have the capability and none of the CCAPs do today.  As painful as it is
you're probably going to have to talk to some sales folks to get the most
up to date info.



Scott Helms
Chief Technology Officer
ZCorum
(678) 507-5000

http://twitter.com/kscotthelms


On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 3:20 PM, Colton Conor  wrote:

> Scott,
>
> Have any idea which exact vendors and model numbers are within this price
> range? So far I have just found mini CMTS systems like the Pico and
> Harmonic's. Both of these are a 16x4 configuration, but no mention of
> remote MAC+PHY nor DOSIS 3.1. Then their is Huawei's solution, but still I
> think that's more based on C-DOCSIS. Searching the vendors websites you
> recommended show no results for remote MAC+PHY in a small format.
>
> On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 2:44 PM, Scott Helms  wrote:
>
>> Colton,
>>
>> D3.1 gear is just coming online right now.  If you're going to go with
>> the smaller PHY+MAC approach I'd just make sure the company has plans to
>> update their boxes to 3.1 in a decent (your judgement) amount of time.
>> Don't expect any 3.0 box to be software upgradeable to 3.1, the hardware is
>> quite different.  The PHY+MAC boxes are _generally_ < $10k and some are
>> talking about ~6k.
>>
>> All the vendors we've listed so far have plans for 3.1, but I don't have
>> a timeline for any of them.  Right now the market is still trying to decide
>> how modular CMTS will be rolled out, remote PHY, remote MAC+PHY, or a
>> combination.  For example, Cisco is (for the moment) betting that remote
>> PHY economics will be compelling for the larger operators, while Arris is
>> doing both approaches.
>>
>>
>> Scott Helms
>> Chief Technology Officer
>> ZCorum
>> (678) 507-5000
>> 
>> http://twitter.com/kscotthelms
>> 
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 3:31 PM, Colton Conor 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Is a remote MAC+PHY the same thing as a Distributed Converged Cable
>>> Access Platform (D-CCAP) solution like Huawei is pushing? Is DOCSIS 3.1
>>> even out, or am I looking for something that does not exist yet?
>>>
>>> Are these remote MAC+PHY devices in the under 10K price range that
>>> these smaller all in one CMTS platforms are?
>>>
>>> On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 12:49 PM, Scott Helms  wrote:
>>>




 On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 1:24 PM, Colton Conor 
 wrote:

> Yes, we are in the USA. So based on everyones recommendations, I am
> going to stay far away from EURODOCSIS. I was told be a vendor that
> Arris and other USA FCC certified cable modems could easily be flashed to
> EURODOCIS mode, so I did not think the CPE side was that big of a deal (is
> that even true). I was not aware that there were so many differences
> besides just the channel width.
>

 I wish this were the case, it would make my life easier.  The problem
 is that there is a diplex filter that prevents the upstream burst from
 being heard by the downstream receiver and for cost purposes all the D3 and
 earlier modems have fixed filters.  What that means is that a EuroDOCSIS
 modem can (sometimes) be flashed to use 6MHz channels, but the reverse is
 NOT true.  In any case we don't recommend using Euro modems that are
 flashed to US standards in production (nor do the vendors) because you'll
 see much more upstream leakage.


>
> So, assuming we are talking about DOCSIS only (and not EURODOCSIS),
> what do you recommend? I like the idea of being able to upgrade to 3.1, 
> but
> not sure if there are any small systems capable of this? By small I mean
> something that could feed less than 100 units, and be economical to do.
> Cable has the advantage of cheap modems, so it's really the CMTS side.
>

 In that case I'd definitely go with a remote MAC+PHY.  That's the only
 way you're going to get a good price point and decent performance unless
 you want to use the secondary market, which actually isn't a bad idea right
 now.  A used 7225 with 8x8 blades is pretty 

Re: Cable Operator List

[Colton Conor]

Scott,

Have any idea which exact vendors and model numbers are within this price
range? So far I have just found mini CMTS systems like the Pico and
Harmonic's. Both of these are a 16x4 configuration, but no mention of
remote MAC+PHY nor DOSIS 3.1. Then their is Huawei's solution, but still I
think that's more based on C-DOCSIS. Searching the vendors websites you
recommended show no results for remote MAC+PHY in a small format.

On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 2:44 PM, Scott Helms  wrote:

> Colton,
>
> D3.1 gear is just coming online right now.  If you're going to go with the
> smaller PHY+MAC approach I'd just make sure the company has plans to update
> their boxes to 3.1 in a decent (your judgement) amount of time.  Don't
> expect any 3.0 box to be software upgradeable to 3.1, the hardware is quite
> different.  The PHY+MAC boxes are _generally_ < $10k and some are talking
> about ~6k.
>
> All the vendors we've listed so far have plans for 3.1, but I don't have a
> timeline for any of them.  Right now the market is still trying to decide
> how modular CMTS will be rolled out, remote PHY, remote MAC+PHY, or a
> combination.  For example, Cisco is (for the moment) betting that remote
> PHY economics will be compelling for the larger operators, while Arris is
> doing both approaches.
>
>
> Scott Helms
> Chief Technology Officer
> ZCorum
> (678) 507-5000
> 
> http://twitter.com/kscotthelms
> 
>
> On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 3:31 PM, Colton Conor 
> wrote:
>
>> Is a remote MAC+PHY the same thing as a Distributed Converged Cable
>> Access Platform (D-CCAP) solution like Huawei is pushing? Is DOCSIS 3.1
>> even out, or am I looking for something that does not exist yet?
>>
>> Are these remote MAC+PHY devices in the under 10K price range that these
>> smaller all in one CMTS platforms are?
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 12:49 PM, Scott Helms  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 1:24 PM, Colton Conor 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Yes, we are in the USA. So based on everyones recommendations, I am
 going to stay far away from EURODOCSIS. I was told be a vendor that
 Arris and other USA FCC certified cable modems could easily be flashed to
 EURODOCIS mode, so I did not think the CPE side was that big of a deal (is
 that even true). I was not aware that there were so many differences
 besides just the channel width.

>>>
>>> I wish this were the case, it would make my life easier.  The problem is
>>> that there is a diplex filter that prevents the upstream burst from being
>>> heard by the downstream receiver and for cost purposes all the D3 and
>>> earlier modems have fixed filters.  What that means is that a EuroDOCSIS
>>> modem can (sometimes) be flashed to use 6MHz channels, but the reverse is
>>> NOT true.  In any case we don't recommend using Euro modems that are
>>> flashed to US standards in production (nor do the vendors) because you'll
>>> see much more upstream leakage.
>>>
>>>

 So, assuming we are talking about DOCSIS only (and not EURODOCSIS),
 what do you recommend? I like the idea of being able to upgrade to 3.1, but
 not sure if there are any small systems capable of this? By small I mean
 something that could feed less than 100 units, and be economical to do.
 Cable has the advantage of cheap modems, so it's really the CMTS side.

>>>
>>> In that case I'd definitely go with a remote MAC+PHY.  That's the only
>>> way you're going to get a good price point and decent performance unless
>>> you want to use the secondary market, which actually isn't a bad idea right
>>> now.  A used 7225 with 8x8 blades is pretty cheap, but it's centralized
>>> CMTS that would cover ~3k subs.
>>>

 Please remember I am only interested in data internet services over
 this plant. Something that works for garden style layouts where I can bring
 fiber or coaxial to the side of a garden townhome that has between 4 to 16
 units inside of it. The reason I requested a harden outdoor unit is that
 most all of the garden style properties have both the phone
 and coaxial drops on the outside of the building. There is no central
 closet or room. Plus we are in the south, so hardened for the
 heat exposure makes sense.

 A remote MAC-PHY (or pre remote MAC-PHY, ala mini CMTS) sounds like
 what I want. I will check into Huawei and Gainspeed. Who else makes these?

>>>
>>> In no particular order, Arris is or will be, Teleste (Euro vendor trying
>>> to break into the US),  Sumavision, Altera, and ton more I can't remember.
>>> Come to one of the SCTE shows (it's in Philadelphia this year) if you want
>>> to be deluged with them :)
>>>





 On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 11:24 AM, Scott Helms  wrote:

> Nick,
>
> Absolutely, if your plant 

Re: Cable Operator List

[Scott Helms]

Colton,

Arris has plans to release a remote PHY+MAC box but I don't think they have
released anything but their plans.  John Chapman said last year at SCTE
that Cisco was going down the remote PHY only path because they think that
will be the most cost effective way for large MSOs to deploy MHAv2.


Scott Helms
Chief Technology Officer
ZCorum
(678) 507-5000

http://twitter.com/kscotthelms


On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 7:48 PM, Colton Conor  wrote:

> Scott,
>
> I was able to find the Huawie solution:
> http://www.huawei.com/ucmf/groups/public/documents/webasset/hw_415387.pdf
> Looks like its 32x4 capable today, and software upgradeable to DOCSIS 3.1
> which is nice. Appears to also have a 10G uplink port on it. Seems like the
> best solution tech spec wise I have seen so far. And probably cheap too!
>
> The Sumavision one you linked to seems to be a 16X4 version, but future
> improved to 32 channels DS and 10 channels US. Future improved to DOCSIS
> 3.1 Not sure if that means the hardware is already capable and just a
> software upgrade or what.
>
> I assume the Harmonic box you are mentioning is the is the NSG Exo:
> http://harmonicinc.com/product/cable-edge/nsg-exo  According to specs its
> only a 16x4 unit today. I don't think you can upgrade to greater than 16x4
> since there is only a gig-e uplink. I see no mention of DOCSIS 3.1. The
> stand (outdoor version) seems to be the same as the indoor.
>
> The indoor version of the NSG EXO spec wise looks identical to the PICO
> Digital miniCMTS200a. According to Daniel Corbe these two units use the
> same chipset (along with the Blonder Tongue CMTS:
> http://www.blondertongue.com/shop-by-department/catv/ip-over-coax/docsis/euro-docsis/)
> Based on pricing I have seen so far, the Pico is the cheapest. Harmonic is
> a little more, and Blonder Tongue is a bit more than Harmonic. Out of these
> three I would assume Harmonic is the most reputable?
>
> I have not heard anything back from gainspeed. Based on the info on their
> website, I am not positive they have an actual product released yet.
>
> Not mentioned so far are Arris and Cisco. Any idea if either of these
> vendors has a small and low cost model?
>

Re: Cable Operator List

[Colton Conor]

Scott,

I was able to find the Huawie solution:
http://www.huawei.com/ucmf/groups/public/documents/webasset/hw_415387.pdf
Looks like its 32x4 capable today, and software upgradeable to DOCSIS 3.1
which is nice. Appears to also have a 10G uplink port on it. Seems like the
best solution tech spec wise I have seen so far. And probably cheap too!

The Sumavision one you linked to seems to be a 16X4 version, but future
improved to 32 channels DS and 10 channels US. Future improved to DOCSIS
3.1 Not sure if that means the hardware is already capable and just a
software upgrade or what.

I assume the Harmonic box you are mentioning is the is the NSG Exo:
http://harmonicinc.com/product/cable-edge/nsg-exo  According to specs its
only a 16x4 unit today. I don't think you can upgrade to greater than 16x4
since there is only a gig-e uplink. I see no mention of DOCSIS 3.1. The
stand (outdoor version) seems to be the same as the indoor.

The indoor version of the NSG EXO spec wise looks identical to the PICO
Digital miniCMTS200a. According to Daniel Corbe these two units use the
same chipset (along with the Blonder Tongue CMTS:
http://www.blondertongue.com/shop-by-department/catv/ip-over-coax/docsis/euro-docsis/)
Based on pricing I have seen so far, the Pico is the cheapest. Harmonic is
a little more, and Blonder Tongue is a bit more than Harmonic. Out of these
three I would assume Harmonic is the most reputable?

I have not heard anything back from gainspeed. Based on the info on their
website, I am not positive they have an actual product released yet.

Not mentioned so far are Arris and Cisco. Any idea if either of these
vendors has a small and low cost model?

Re: Cable Operator List

[Colton Conor]

Richard,

Thanks for the information on these. Do you mind me asking what is a
ballpark for these devices? From what I have read/heard, the Huawei D-CMTS
was a 16x4 unit software upgradeable to 32x4 I thought. Is the one you have
software upgradeable to 32x4? Are these DOCSIS 3.1 capable.

Better yet, what does DOCSIS 3.1 or pre- DOCSIS 3.1 mean?


On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 10:13 PM, Richard Holbo  wrote:

> I'm in the middle of pulling some Cisco 7246VXR-UBR's (antiques) and
> replacing them with the Huawei D-CMTS devices.  From what I understand of
> your needs, the Huawei devices will do what you are looking for.  We are
> running 8x4, but can upgrade the licenses to 24x4 if we need the bandwidth,
> although at that point you will be more limited by the gig uplink.  I'm
> designing them to not serve more than 250 customers per cmts and they are
> running a single vlan on the cable side back to an ISC DHCP server with
> very simple config files served via tftp.  This allows me to group the
> CMTS's for reasonably efficient use of IP.  Have not done IP6 on these yet,
> but will fairly soon.
> They are actually designed to run as a ONT from the Huawei OLT (GPON), but
> will also accept a standard SFP and run off ethernet (that's how I'm doing
> it).  Compared to the other small CMTS's I looked at these are hard to
> beat. they are Hardened and can be mounted anywhere.  The config to do what
> I'm using them for is really simple (I'm a big believer in KISS).  Have had
> some in service for a few months now with no issues.
>
> I've used some 24 port VDSL switches in the past for MDU's and may
> actually pull some of those and use these where there is RG6 house wiring
> as they support a LOT more management than any of the smaller DSLAMS I've
> looked at.
>
> In this configuration I can easily support 100mbit service on DOCSIS 3,
> and my unlimited modems will speedtest all the way to 280mbs.
>
>
> FWIW
>
> /rh
>
> On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 10:24 AM, Colton Conor 
> wrote:
>
>> Yes, we are in the USA. So based on everyones recommendations, I am going
>> to stay far away from EURODOCSIS. I was told be a vendor that Arris and
>> other USA FCC certified cable modems could easily be flashed to EURODOCIS
>> mode, so I did not think the CPE side was that big of a deal (is that even
>> true). I was not aware that there were so many differences besides just
>> the
>> channel width.
>>
>> So, assuming we are talking about DOCSIS only (and not EURODOCSIS), what
>> do
>> you recommend? I like the idea of being able to upgrade to 3.1, but not
>> sure if there are any small systems capable of this? By small I mean
>> something that could feed less than 100 units, and be economical to do.
>> Cable has the advantage of cheap modems, so it's really the CMTS side.
>>
>> Please remember I am only interested in data internet services over this
>> plant. Something that works for garden style layouts where I can bring
>> fiber or coaxial to the side of a garden townhome that has between 4 to 16
>> units inside of it. The reason I requested a harden outdoor unit is that
>> most all of the garden style properties have both the phone
>> and coaxial drops on the outside of the building. There is no central
>> closet or room. Plus we are in the south, so hardened for the
>> heat exposure makes sense.
>>
>> A remote MAC-PHY (or pre remote MAC-PHY, ala mini CMTS) sounds like what I
>> want. I will check into Huawei and Gainspeed. Who else makes these?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 11:24 AM, Scott Helms  wrote:
>>
>> > Nick,
>> >
>> > Absolutely, if your plant is in Europe or one of the other areas (lots
>> of
>> > Africa and the middle East is like that) that adopted EuroDOCSIS I'd
>> agree
>> > wholeheartedly.  I didn't see Colton say where they're located, but all
>> > North America is the US flavor so that's what I assume on NANOG.
>> >
>> > That being said, the best thing that seldom gets mentioned about D3.1 is
>> > getting us to unified channelization.
>> > Scott Helms wrote:
>> > > That very small upside for an extreme downside.Trying to hire someone
>> > > to work on your system with Euro channelization, not to mention buying
>> > > amplifiers and passives is a huge PITA.
>> >
>> > ... if your plant is in the US.
>> >
>> > > I have customers in Europe who
>> > > decided to do US DOCSIS and they universally wish they had used the
>> > > local "flavor".
>> >
>> > as you say, eurodocsis works well in europe.
>> >
>> > 3.1 will be a major improvement when it materialises.
>> >
>> > Nick
>> >
>>
>
>

Re: Cable Operator List

[Richard Holbo]

I'm in the middle of pulling some Cisco 7246VXR-UBR's (antiques) and
replacing them with the Huawei D-CMTS devices.  From what I understand of
your needs, the Huawei devices will do what you are looking for.  We are
running 8x4, but can upgrade the licenses to 24x4 if we need the bandwidth,
although at that point you will be more limited by the gig uplink.  I'm
designing them to not serve more than 250 customers per cmts and they are
running a single vlan on the cable side back to an ISC DHCP server with
very simple config files served via tftp.  This allows me to group the
CMTS's for reasonably efficient use of IP.  Have not done IP6 on these yet,
but will fairly soon.
They are actually designed to run as a ONT from the Huawei OLT (GPON), but
will also accept a standard SFP and run off ethernet (that's how I'm doing
it).  Compared to the other small CMTS's I looked at these are hard to
beat. they are Hardened and can be mounted anywhere.  The config to do what
I'm using them for is really simple (I'm a big believer in KISS).  Have had
some in service for a few months now with no issues.

I've used some 24 port VDSL switches in the past for MDU's and may actually
pull some of those and use these where there is RG6 house wiring as they
support a LOT more management than any of the smaller DSLAMS I've looked at.

In this configuration I can easily support 100mbit service on DOCSIS 3, and
my unlimited modems will speedtest all the way to 280mbs.


FWIW

/rh

On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 10:24 AM, Colton Conor 
wrote:

> Yes, we are in the USA. So based on everyones recommendations, I am going
> to stay far away from EURODOCSIS. I was told be a vendor that Arris and
> other USA FCC certified cable modems could easily be flashed to EURODOCIS
> mode, so I did not think the CPE side was that big of a deal (is that even
> true). I was not aware that there were so many differences besides just the
> channel width.
>
> So, assuming we are talking about DOCSIS only (and not EURODOCSIS), what do
> you recommend? I like the idea of being able to upgrade to 3.1, but not
> sure if there are any small systems capable of this? By small I mean
> something that could feed less than 100 units, and be economical to do.
> Cable has the advantage of cheap modems, so it's really the CMTS side.
>
> Please remember I am only interested in data internet services over this
> plant. Something that works for garden style layouts where I can bring
> fiber or coaxial to the side of a garden townhome that has between 4 to 16
> units inside of it. The reason I requested a harden outdoor unit is that
> most all of the garden style properties have both the phone
> and coaxial drops on the outside of the building. There is no central
> closet or room. Plus we are in the south, so hardened for the
> heat exposure makes sense.
>
> A remote MAC-PHY (or pre remote MAC-PHY, ala mini CMTS) sounds like what I
> want. I will check into Huawei and Gainspeed. Who else makes these?
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 11:24 AM, Scott Helms  wrote:
>
> > Nick,
> >
> > Absolutely, if your plant is in Europe or one of the other areas (lots of
> > Africa and the middle East is like that) that adopted EuroDOCSIS I'd
> agree
> > wholeheartedly.  I didn't see Colton say where they're located, but all
> > North America is the US flavor so that's what I assume on NANOG.
> >
> > That being said, the best thing that seldom gets mentioned about D3.1 is
> > getting us to unified channelization.
> > Scott Helms wrote:
> > > That very small upside for an extreme downside.Trying to hire someone
> > > to work on your system with Euro channelization, not to mention buying
> > > amplifiers and passives is a huge PITA.
> >
> > ... if your plant is in the US.
> >
> > > I have customers in Europe who
> > > decided to do US DOCSIS and they universally wish they had used the
> > > local "flavor".
> >
> > as you say, eurodocsis works well in europe.
> >
> > 3.1 will be a major improvement when it materialises.
> >
> > Nick
> >
>

Re: Cable Operator List

[Colton Conor]

Frank,

Thanks for the advice, but I am looking for a low density, low cost
solution.

I have found some G.HN briges that are made from MDU enviroments, and seem
cheaper than a small CMTS system. Anyone have expierence with G.HN?

On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 11:07 PM, <frnk...@iname.com> wrote:

> If you need density along the Arris line, skip the C4 and go straight to
> the E6000.
>
> Frank
>
> -Original Message-
> From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Corbe
> Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2016 8:18 AM
> To: Colton Conor <colton.co...@gmail.com>
> Cc: NANOG <nanog@nanog.org>
> Subject: Re: Cable Operator List
>
> Hey Colton,
>
> We’re using small 16 channel CMTS systems for residential MDUs and
> colocating them directly on premise inside of wiring closets and then
> connecting them by metro ethernet.  We’ve had great successes so far with
> this model.
>
> There’s lots of CMTS vendors.
>
> There’s tons of used Motorola BSR 64Ks on the market, but be aware of the
> lack of useful IPv6 features (like prefix delegation) in older software
> releases.  If you buy a box and want to run 7.x or 8.x, you’ll need to
> relicense your downstream and upstream channels at some additional
> arbitrary fixed cost.
>
> I’m personally fond of these things:
>
> http://picodigital.com/product-details.php?ID=miniCMTS200a
>
> You can only bond 16 channels together max though because that’s all the
> box supports and you can’t bond across boxes; however, these things are
> less than 4 grand if you buy them in bulk so they’re really fucking easy to
> just spam everywhere.
>
> Blonder Tongue makes a pizza-box style CMTS too:
>
>
> http://www.blondertongue.com/shop-by-department/catv/ip-over-coax/docsis/euro-docsis/
>
> As does Harmonics:
>
> http://harmonicinc.com/product/cable-edge/nsg-exo
>
> All three are based on the same chipset, so the real differentiation is
> price and firmware features.
>
> Then there’s Cisco.
>
> The UBR is a popular platform.  And pretty soon there’s going to be a glut
> of UBR10Ks on the Market because Comcast is busy ripping their UBRs out of
> production because they’re upgrading their cable plant to the CBR platform.
>
> Then the Arris C4, if you have deep pockets, is a modern version of the
> BSR:
>
> http://www.arris.com/products/c4-cmts/
>
>
> > On Feb 2, 2016, at 9:00 AM, Colton Conor <colton.co...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Well, maybe NANOG's not a bad place for this post then! I would like to
> know more about the data-only side of CMTS systems, and who the main
> vendors are.
> >
> > We have MDU properties where there is either old inside CAT3 phone wire,
> or coaxial cable. We have looked and are very familiar with the multiple
> technologies that work over phone lines namely VDSL2 and G.FAST. However,
> using the coaxial cable seems to be a much better solution than using the
> phone wires.
> >
> > So I am looking for compacts, low cost CMTS systems. Based on the specs,
> I am looking for something at least DOCSIS 3.0 capable, with at least 16X4
> output. Something with the ability to upgrade to software upgrade to DOCSIS
> 3.1 would be nice, but I doubt that would be a low cost solution.
> >
> > Whats out there for small operators that don't want a large chassis
> based system to feed an entire town with.
> >
> > So far I have found the
> http://picodigital.com/product-details.php?ID=miniCMTS200a which seems to
> retail for under $5000.
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 7:48 AM, Daniel Corbe <dco...@hammerfiber.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > On Feb 2, 2016, at 8:42 AM, Colton Conor <colton.co...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Are there any mailing lists out there dedicated for cable/MSO type
> > > operators?
> > >
> >
> > I'm curious about this too.
> >
> > I’m not a cable operator (in that I haven’t successfully registered for
> a cable franchise yet) but I do operate a docsis network and I’ve
> successfully negotiated the treacherous waters of obtaining and providing
> content to my users.
> >
> > I’m still a bit green behind the ears but I could probably offer some
> measure of assistance if you have a specific question.
> >
> > -Daniel
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

Re: Cable Operator List

[Scott Helms]

On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 1:24 PM, Colton Conor  wrote:

> Yes, we are in the USA. So based on everyones recommendations, I am going
> to stay far away from EURODOCSIS. I was told be a vendor that Arris and
> other USA FCC certified cable modems could easily be flashed to EURODOCIS
> mode, so I did not think the CPE side was that big of a deal (is that even
> true). I was not aware that there were so many differences besides just the
> channel width.
>

I wish this were the case, it would make my life easier.  The problem is
that there is a diplex filter that prevents the upstream burst from being
heard by the downstream receiver and for cost purposes all the D3 and
earlier modems have fixed filters.  What that means is that a EuroDOCSIS
modem can (sometimes) be flashed to use 6MHz channels, but the reverse is
NOT true.  In any case we don't recommend using Euro modems that are
flashed to US standards in production (nor do the vendors) because you'll
see much more upstream leakage.


>
> So, assuming we are talking about DOCSIS only (and not EURODOCSIS), what
> do you recommend? I like the idea of being able to upgrade to 3.1, but not
> sure if there are any small systems capable of this? By small I mean
> something that could feed less than 100 units, and be economical to do.
> Cable has the advantage of cheap modems, so it's really the CMTS side.
>

In that case I'd definitely go with a remote MAC+PHY.  That's the only way
you're going to get a good price point and decent performance unless you
want to use the secondary market, which actually isn't a bad idea right
now.  A used 7225 with 8x8 blades is pretty cheap, but it's centralized
CMTS that would cover ~3k subs.

>
> Please remember I am only interested in data internet services over this
> plant. Something that works for garden style layouts where I can bring
> fiber or coaxial to the side of a garden townhome that has between 4 to 16
> units inside of it. The reason I requested a harden outdoor unit is that
> most all of the garden style properties have both the phone
> and coaxial drops on the outside of the building. There is no central
> closet or room. Plus we are in the south, so hardened for the
> heat exposure makes sense.
>
> A remote MAC-PHY (or pre remote MAC-PHY, ala mini CMTS) sounds like what
> I want. I will check into Huawei and Gainspeed. Who else makes these?
>

In no particular order, Arris is or will be, Teleste (Euro vendor trying to
break into the US),  Sumavision, Altera, and ton more I can't remember.
Come to one of the SCTE shows (it's in Philadelphia this year) if you want
to be deluged with them :)

>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 11:24 AM, Scott Helms  wrote:
>
>> Nick,
>>
>> Absolutely, if your plant is in Europe or one of the other areas (lots of
>> Africa and the middle East is like that) that adopted EuroDOCSIS I'd agree
>> wholeheartedly.  I didn't see Colton say where they're located, but all
>> North America is the US flavor so that's what I assume on NANOG.
>>
>> That being said, the best thing that seldom gets mentioned about D3.1 is
>> getting us to unified channelization.
>> Scott Helms wrote:
>> > That very small upside for an extreme downside.Trying to hire someone
>> > to work on your system with Euro channelization, not to mention buying
>> > amplifiers and passives is a huge PITA.
>>
>> ... if your plant is in the US.
>>
>> > I have customers in Europe who
>> > decided to do US DOCSIS and they universally wish they had used the
>> > local "flavor".
>>
>> as you say, eurodocsis works well in europe.
>>
>> 3.1 will be a major improvement when it materialises.
>>
>> Nick
>>
>
>

Re: Cable Operator List

[Colton Conor]

Is a remote MAC+PHY the same thing as a Distributed Converged Cable Access
Platform (D-CCAP) solution like Huawei is pushing? Is DOCSIS 3.1 even out,
or am I looking for something that does not exist yet?

Are these remote MAC+PHY devices in the under 10K price range that these
smaller all in one CMTS platforms are?

On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 12:49 PM, Scott Helms  wrote:

>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 1:24 PM, Colton Conor 
> wrote:
>
>> Yes, we are in the USA. So based on everyones recommendations, I am going
>> to stay far away from EURODOCSIS. I was told be a vendor that Arris and
>> other USA FCC certified cable modems could easily be flashed to EURODOCIS
>> mode, so I did not think the CPE side was that big of a deal (is that even
>> true). I was not aware that there were so many differences besides just the
>> channel width.
>>
>
> I wish this were the case, it would make my life easier.  The problem is
> that there is a diplex filter that prevents the upstream burst from being
> heard by the downstream receiver and for cost purposes all the D3 and
> earlier modems have fixed filters.  What that means is that a EuroDOCSIS
> modem can (sometimes) be flashed to use 6MHz channels, but the reverse is
> NOT true.  In any case we don't recommend using Euro modems that are
> flashed to US standards in production (nor do the vendors) because you'll
> see much more upstream leakage.
>
>
>>
>> So, assuming we are talking about DOCSIS only (and not EURODOCSIS), what
>> do you recommend? I like the idea of being able to upgrade to 3.1, but not
>> sure if there are any small systems capable of this? By small I mean
>> something that could feed less than 100 units, and be economical to do.
>> Cable has the advantage of cheap modems, so it's really the CMTS side.
>>
>
> In that case I'd definitely go with a remote MAC+PHY.  That's the only way
> you're going to get a good price point and decent performance unless you
> want to use the secondary market, which actually isn't a bad idea right
> now.  A used 7225 with 8x8 blades is pretty cheap, but it's centralized
> CMTS that would cover ~3k subs.
>
>>
>> Please remember I am only interested in data internet services over this
>> plant. Something that works for garden style layouts where I can bring
>> fiber or coaxial to the side of a garden townhome that has between 4 to 16
>> units inside of it. The reason I requested a harden outdoor unit is that
>> most all of the garden style properties have both the phone
>> and coaxial drops on the outside of the building. There is no central
>> closet or room. Plus we are in the south, so hardened for the
>> heat exposure makes sense.
>>
>> A remote MAC-PHY (or pre remote MAC-PHY, ala mini CMTS) sounds like what
>> I want. I will check into Huawei and Gainspeed. Who else makes these?
>>
>
> In no particular order, Arris is or will be, Teleste (Euro vendor trying
> to break into the US),  Sumavision, Altera, and ton more I can't remember.
> Come to one of the SCTE shows (it's in Philadelphia this year) if you want
> to be deluged with them :)
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 11:24 AM, Scott Helms  wrote:
>>
>>> Nick,
>>>
>>> Absolutely, if your plant is in Europe or one of the other areas (lots
>>> of Africa and the middle East is like that) that adopted EuroDOCSIS I'd
>>> agree wholeheartedly.  I didn't see Colton say where they're located, but
>>> all North America is the US flavor so that's what I assume on NANOG.
>>>
>>> That being said, the best thing that seldom gets mentioned about D3.1 is
>>> getting us to unified channelization.
>>> Scott Helms wrote:
>>> > That very small upside for an extreme downside.Trying to hire someone
>>> > to work on your system with Euro channelization, not to mention buying
>>> > amplifiers and passives is a huge PITA.
>>>
>>> ... if your plant is in the US.
>>>
>>> > I have customers in Europe who
>>> > decided to do US DOCSIS and they universally wish they had used the
>>> > local "flavor".
>>>
>>> as you say, eurodocsis works well in europe.
>>>
>>> 3.1 will be a major improvement when it materialises.
>>>
>>> Nick
>>>
>>
>>
>

Re: Cable Operator List

[Colton Conor]

Yes, we are in the USA. So based on everyones recommendations, I am going
to stay far away from EURODOCSIS. I was told be a vendor that Arris and
other USA FCC certified cable modems could easily be flashed to EURODOCIS
mode, so I did not think the CPE side was that big of a deal (is that even
true). I was not aware that there were so many differences besides just the
channel width.

So, assuming we are talking about DOCSIS only (and not EURODOCSIS), what do
you recommend? I like the idea of being able to upgrade to 3.1, but not
sure if there are any small systems capable of this? By small I mean
something that could feed less than 100 units, and be economical to do.
Cable has the advantage of cheap modems, so it's really the CMTS side.

Please remember I am only interested in data internet services over this
plant. Something that works for garden style layouts where I can bring
fiber or coaxial to the side of a garden townhome that has between 4 to 16
units inside of it. The reason I requested a harden outdoor unit is that
most all of the garden style properties have both the phone
and coaxial drops on the outside of the building. There is no central
closet or room. Plus we are in the south, so hardened for the
heat exposure makes sense.

A remote MAC-PHY (or pre remote MAC-PHY, ala mini CMTS) sounds like what I
want. I will check into Huawei and Gainspeed. Who else makes these?




On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 11:24 AM, Scott Helms  wrote:

> Nick,
>
> Absolutely, if your plant is in Europe or one of the other areas (lots of
> Africa and the middle East is like that) that adopted EuroDOCSIS I'd agree
> wholeheartedly.  I didn't see Colton say where they're located, but all
> North America is the US flavor so that's what I assume on NANOG.
>
> That being said, the best thing that seldom gets mentioned about D3.1 is
> getting us to unified channelization.
> Scott Helms wrote:
> > That very small upside for an extreme downside.Trying to hire someone
> > to work on your system with Euro channelization, not to mention buying
> > amplifiers and passives is a huge PITA.
>
> ... if your plant is in the US.
>
> > I have customers in Europe who
> > decided to do US DOCSIS and they universally wish they had used the
> > local "flavor".
>
> as you say, eurodocsis works well in europe.
>
> 3.1 will be a major improvement when it materialises.
>
> Nick
>

Re: Cable Operator List

[Scott Helms]

Colton,

D3.1 gear is just coming online right now.  If you're going to go with the
smaller PHY+MAC approach I'd just make sure the company has plans to update
their boxes to 3.1 in a decent (your judgement) amount of time.  Don't
expect any 3.0 box to be software upgradeable to 3.1, the hardware is quite
different.  The PHY+MAC boxes are _generally_ < $10k and some are talking
about ~6k.

All the vendors we've listed so far have plans for 3.1, but I don't have a
timeline for any of them.  Right now the market is still trying to decide
how modular CMTS will be rolled out, remote PHY, remote MAC+PHY, or a
combination.  For example, Cisco is (for the moment) betting that remote
PHY economics will be compelling for the larger operators, while Arris is
doing both approaches.


Scott Helms
Chief Technology Officer
ZCorum
(678) 507-5000

http://twitter.com/kscotthelms


On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 3:31 PM, Colton Conor  wrote:

> Is a remote MAC+PHY the same thing as a Distributed Converged Cable
> Access Platform (D-CCAP) solution like Huawei is pushing? Is DOCSIS 3.1
> even out, or am I looking for something that does not exist yet?
>
> Are these remote MAC+PHY devices in the under 10K price range that these
> smaller all in one CMTS platforms are?
>
> On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 12:49 PM, Scott Helms  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 1:24 PM, Colton Conor 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, we are in the USA. So based on everyones recommendations, I am
>>> going to stay far away from EURODOCSIS. I was told be a vendor that
>>> Arris and other USA FCC certified cable modems could easily be flashed to
>>> EURODOCIS mode, so I did not think the CPE side was that big of a deal (is
>>> that even true). I was not aware that there were so many differences
>>> besides just the channel width.
>>>
>>
>> I wish this were the case, it would make my life easier.  The problem is
>> that there is a diplex filter that prevents the upstream burst from being
>> heard by the downstream receiver and for cost purposes all the D3 and
>> earlier modems have fixed filters.  What that means is that a EuroDOCSIS
>> modem can (sometimes) be flashed to use 6MHz channels, but the reverse is
>> NOT true.  In any case we don't recommend using Euro modems that are
>> flashed to US standards in production (nor do the vendors) because you'll
>> see much more upstream leakage.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> So, assuming we are talking about DOCSIS only (and not EURODOCSIS), what
>>> do you recommend? I like the idea of being able to upgrade to 3.1, but not
>>> sure if there are any small systems capable of this? By small I mean
>>> something that could feed less than 100 units, and be economical to do.
>>> Cable has the advantage of cheap modems, so it's really the CMTS side.
>>>
>>
>> In that case I'd definitely go with a remote MAC+PHY.  That's the only
>> way you're going to get a good price point and decent performance unless
>> you want to use the secondary market, which actually isn't a bad idea right
>> now.  A used 7225 with 8x8 blades is pretty cheap, but it's centralized
>> CMTS that would cover ~3k subs.
>>
>>>
>>> Please remember I am only interested in data internet services over this
>>> plant. Something that works for garden style layouts where I can bring
>>> fiber or coaxial to the side of a garden townhome that has between 4 to 16
>>> units inside of it. The reason I requested a harden outdoor unit is that
>>> most all of the garden style properties have both the phone
>>> and coaxial drops on the outside of the building. There is no central
>>> closet or room. Plus we are in the south, so hardened for the
>>> heat exposure makes sense.
>>>
>>> A remote MAC-PHY (or pre remote MAC-PHY, ala mini CMTS) sounds like
>>> what I want. I will check into Huawei and Gainspeed. Who else makes these?
>>>
>>
>> In no particular order, Arris is or will be, Teleste (Euro vendor trying
>> to break into the US),  Sumavision, Altera, and ton more I can't remember.
>> Come to one of the SCTE shows (it's in Philadelphia this year) if you want
>> to be deluged with them :)
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 11:24 AM, Scott Helms  wrote:
>>>
 Nick,

 Absolutely, if your plant is in Europe or one of the other areas (lots
 of Africa and the middle East is like that) that adopted EuroDOCSIS I'd
 agree wholeheartedly.  I didn't see Colton say where they're located, but
 all North America is the US flavor so that's what I assume on NANOG.

 That being said, the best thing that seldom gets mentioned about D3.1
 is getting us to unified channelization.
 Scott Helms wrote:
 > That very small upside for an extreme downside.Trying to hire someone
 > to work on your system with Euro channelization, not to mention buying
 > amplifiers and passives is a huge PITA.

RE: Cable Operator List

[Graham Johnston]

DSG=Docsis Set-Top Gateway.  It is a more modern implementation of the command 
and control communications path that tradition video set-top boxes used.

Graham Johnston
Network Planner
Westman Communications Group
204.717.2829
johnst...@westmancom.com<mailto:johnst...@westmancom.com>
P think green; don't print this email.

From: Colton Conor [mailto:colton.co...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2016 9:44 AM
To: Graham Johnston
Cc: NANOG
Subject: Re: Cable Operator List

Graham,

What is DSG? Yes, I am really looking for a CMTS to perform layer 2 just as our 
DSLAMs and GPON do today. All layer 3 will be upstream. I would want to handle 
DHCP upstream, but have the CMTS insert Option 82 if that is a feature. Not 
sure what specific CMTS stuff you need.

On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 8:12 AM, Graham Johnston 
<johnst...@westmancom.com<mailto:johnst...@westmancom.com>> wrote:
Colton,

It really depends on what features you are after.  I've demo'd one of the small 
1/2RU C-DOCSIS CMTSs, and they certainly work.  For us though it was a 
non-starter as we needed support for DSG and it didn't have it.  If all you are 
after is basic internet connectivity there is Pico Digital, Vecima, Sumavision, 
as well as others.  Many of the C-DOCSIS CMTSs seem either only support, or are 
more often meant to support layer 2 operations where the routing happens 
upstream from the CMTS.

Graham Johnston
Network Planner
Westman Communications Group
204.717.2829
johnst...@westmancom.com<mailto:johnst...@westmancom.com>
• think green; don't print this email.


-Original Message-
From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org<mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org>] On 
Behalf Of Colton Conor
Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2016 8:00 AM
To: Daniel Corbe
Cc: NANOG
Subject: Re: Cable Operator List
Well, maybe NANOG's not a bad place for this post then! I would like to
know more about the data-only side of CMTS systems, and who the main
vendors are.

We have MDU properties where there is either old inside CAT3 phone wire, or
coaxial cable. We have looked and are very familiar with the multiple
technologies that work over phone lines namely VDSL2 and G.FAST. However,
using the coaxial cable seems to be a much better solution than using the
phone wires.

So I am looking for compacts, low cost CMTS systems. Based on the specs, I
am looking for something at least DOCSIS 3.0 capable, with at least 16X4
output. Something with the ability to upgrade to software upgrade to DOCSIS
3.1 would be nice, but I doubt that would be a low cost solution.

Whats out there for small operators that don't want a large chassis based
system to feed an entire town with.

So far I have found the
http://picodigital.com/product-details.php?ID=miniCMTS200a which seems to
retail for under $5000.


On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 7:48 AM, Daniel Corbe 
<dco...@hammerfiber.com<mailto:dco...@hammerfiber.com>> wrote:

>
> > On Feb 2, 2016, at 8:42 AM, Colton Conor 
> > <colton.co...@gmail.com<mailto:colton.co...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Are there any mailing lists out there dedicated for cable/MSO type
> > operators?
> >
>
> I'm curious about this too.
>
> I’m not a cable operator (in that I haven’t successfully registered for a
> cable franchise yet) but I do operate a docsis network and I’ve
> successfully negotiated the treacherous waters of obtaining and providing
> content to my users.
>
> I’m still a bit green behind the ears but I could probably offer some
> measure of assistance if you have a specific question.
>
> -Daniel
>
>

RE: Cable Operator List

[frnkblk]

If you need density along the Arris line, skip the C4 and go straight to the 
E6000.

Frank

-Original Message-
From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Corbe
Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2016 8:18 AM
To: Colton Conor <colton.co...@gmail.com>
Cc: NANOG <nanog@nanog.org>
Subject: Re: Cable Operator List

Hey Colton, 

We’re using small 16 channel CMTS systems for residential MDUs and colocating 
them directly on premise inside of wiring closets and then connecting them by 
metro ethernet.  We’ve had great successes so far with this model.

There’s lots of CMTS vendors.

There’s tons of used Motorola BSR 64Ks on the market, but be aware of the lack 
of useful IPv6 features (like prefix delegation) in older software releases.  
If you buy a box and want to run 7.x or 8.x, you’ll need to relicense your 
downstream and upstream channels at some additional arbitrary fixed cost.  

I’m personally fond of these things:

http://picodigital.com/product-details.php?ID=miniCMTS200a

You can only bond 16 channels together max though because that’s all the box 
supports and you can’t bond across boxes; however, these things are less than 4 
grand if you buy them in bulk so they’re really fucking easy to just spam 
everywhere.

Blonder Tongue makes a pizza-box style CMTS too:

http://www.blondertongue.com/shop-by-department/catv/ip-over-coax/docsis/euro-docsis/

As does Harmonics:

http://harmonicinc.com/product/cable-edge/nsg-exo

All three are based on the same chipset, so the real differentiation is price 
and firmware features.  

Then there’s Cisco.

The UBR is a popular platform.  And pretty soon there’s going to be a glut of 
UBR10Ks on the Market because Comcast is busy ripping their UBRs out of 
production because they’re upgrading their cable plant to the CBR platform.

Then the Arris C4, if you have deep pockets, is a modern version of the BSR:

http://www.arris.com/products/c4-cmts/


> On Feb 2, 2016, at 9:00 AM, Colton Conor <colton.co...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Well, maybe NANOG's not a bad place for this post then! I would like to know 
> more about the data-only side of CMTS systems, and who the main vendors are. 
> 
> We have MDU properties where there is either old inside CAT3 phone wire, or 
> coaxial cable. We have looked and are very familiar with the multiple 
> technologies that work over phone lines namely VDSL2 and G.FAST. However, 
> using the coaxial cable seems to be a much better solution than using the 
> phone wires.
> 
> So I am looking for compacts, low cost CMTS systems. Based on the specs, I am 
> looking for something at least DOCSIS 3.0 capable, with at least 16X4 output. 
> Something with the ability to upgrade to software upgrade to DOCSIS 3.1 would 
> be nice, but I doubt that would be a low cost solution.
> 
> Whats out there for small operators that don't want a large chassis based 
> system to feed an entire town with. 
> 
> So far I have found the 
> http://picodigital.com/product-details.php?ID=miniCMTS200a which seems to 
> retail for under $5000. 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 7:48 AM, Daniel Corbe <dco...@hammerfiber.com> wrote:
> 
> > On Feb 2, 2016, at 8:42 AM, Colton Conor <colton.co...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Are there any mailing lists out there dedicated for cable/MSO type
> > operators?
> >
> 
> I'm curious about this too.
> 
> I’m not a cable operator (in that I haven’t successfully registered for a 
> cable franchise yet) but I do operate a docsis network and I’ve successfully 
> negotiated the treacherous waters of obtaining and providing content to my 
> users.
> 
> I’m still a bit green behind the ears but I could probably offer some measure 
> of assistance if you have a specific question.
> 
> -Daniel
> 
> 

Re: Cable Operator List

[Nick Hilliard]

Jared Mauch wrote:
>   I can create a catv or similar list easily.  good name
> suggestions welcome.

"There are only two hard things in Computer Science: cache invalidation
and naming things".

docsis-nsp?

Nick

Re: Cable Operator List

[Daniel Corbe]

Hey Colton, 

We’re using small 16 channel CMTS systems for residential MDUs and colocating 
them directly on premise inside of wiring closets and then connecting them by 
metro ethernet.  We’ve had great successes so far with this model.

There’s lots of CMTS vendors.

There’s tons of used Motorola BSR 64Ks on the market, but be aware of the lack 
of useful IPv6 features (like prefix delegation) in older software releases.  
If you buy a box and want to run 7.x or 8.x, you’ll need to relicense your 
downstream and upstream channels at some additional arbitrary fixed cost.  

I’m personally fond of these things:

http://picodigital.com/product-details.php?ID=miniCMTS200a

You can only bond 16 channels together max though because that’s all the box 
supports and you can’t bond across boxes; however, these things are less than 4 
grand if you buy them in bulk so they’re really fucking easy to just spam 
everywhere.

Blonder Tongue makes a pizza-box style CMTS too:

http://www.blondertongue.com/shop-by-department/catv/ip-over-coax/docsis/euro-docsis/

As does Harmonics:

http://harmonicinc.com/product/cable-edge/nsg-exo

All three are based on the same chipset, so the real differentiation is price 
and firmware features.  

Then there’s Cisco.

The UBR is a popular platform.  And pretty soon there’s going to be a glut of 
UBR10Ks on the Market because Comcast is busy ripping their UBRs out of 
production because they’re upgrading their cable plant to the CBR platform.

Then the Arris C4, if you have deep pockets, is a modern version of the BSR:

http://www.arris.com/products/c4-cmts/


> On Feb 2, 2016, at 9:00 AM, Colton Conor  wrote:
> 
> Well, maybe NANOG's not a bad place for this post then! I would like to know 
> more about the data-only side of CMTS systems, and who the main vendors are. 
> 
> We have MDU properties where there is either old inside CAT3 phone wire, or 
> coaxial cable. We have looked and are very familiar with the multiple 
> technologies that work over phone lines namely VDSL2 and G.FAST. However, 
> using the coaxial cable seems to be a much better solution than using the 
> phone wires.
> 
> So I am looking for compacts, low cost CMTS systems. Based on the specs, I am 
> looking for something at least DOCSIS 3.0 capable, with at least 16X4 output. 
> Something with the ability to upgrade to software upgrade to DOCSIS 3.1 would 
> be nice, but I doubt that would be a low cost solution.
> 
> Whats out there for small operators that don't want a large chassis based 
> system to feed an entire town with. 
> 
> So far I have found the 
> http://picodigital.com/product-details.php?ID=miniCMTS200a which seems to 
> retail for under $5000. 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 7:48 AM, Daniel Corbe  wrote:
> 
> > On Feb 2, 2016, at 8:42 AM, Colton Conor  wrote:
> >
> > Are there any mailing lists out there dedicated for cable/MSO type
> > operators?
> >
> 
> I'm curious about this too.
> 
> I’m not a cable operator (in that I haven’t successfully registered for a 
> cable franchise yet) but I do operate a docsis network and I’ve successfully 
> negotiated the treacherous waters of obtaining and providing content to my 
> users.
> 
> I’m still a bit green behind the ears but I could probably offer some measure 
> of assistance if you have a specific question.
> 
> -Daniel
> 
> 

Re: Cable Operator List

[Jared Mauch]

On Tue, Feb 02, 2016 at 02:26:14PM +, Nick Hilliard wrote:
> Jared Mauch wrote:
> > I can create a catv or similar list easily.  good name
> > suggestions welcome.
> 
> "There are only two hard things in Computer Science: cache invalidation
> and naming things".

https://xkcd.com/910/

> docsis-nsp?

Done.

https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/docsis-nsp

- Jared

-- 
Jared Mauch  | pgp key available via finger from ja...@puck.nether.net
clue++;  | http://puck.nether.net/~jared/  My statements are only mine.

Re: Cable Operator List

[Scott Helms]

Colton,

You're only going to find very small, old, or not certified (usually still
very small) CMTSs that only do layer 2.  All of the major vendors are doing
layer 3 because we've found out over time that not doing it is more
problematic.  Having said that, if you're looking for a more ONT/DSLAM type
of install there is a new type of CMTSs that look at lot like traditional
telco DLC/BLC deployments.

https://intx15.ncta.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/17-Remote-PHY.pdf

The remote PHY+MAC boxes are basically mini-CMTSs and they typically rely
on something upstream handling layer 3.  The remote PHY boxes are different
as they don't even do a complete layer 2 and instead forward DOCSIS frames
back to a centralized CMTS/CCAP.



Scott Helms
Chief Technology Officer
ZCorum
(678) 507-5000

http://twitter.com/kscotthelms


On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Colton Conor <colton.co...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Graham,
>
> What is DSG? Yes, I am really looking for a CMTS to perform layer 2 just as
> our DSLAMs and GPON do today. All layer 3 will be upstream. I would want to
> handle DHCP upstream, but have the CMTS insert Option 82 if that is a
> feature. Not sure what specific CMTS stuff you need.
>
> On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 8:12 AM, Graham Johnston <johnst...@westmancom.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Colton,
> >
> > It really depends on what features you are after.  I've demo'd one of the
> > small 1/2RU C-DOCSIS CMTSs, and they certainly work.  For us though it
> was
> > a non-starter as we needed support for DSG and it didn't have it.  If all
> > you are after is basic internet connectivity there is Pico Digital,
> Vecima,
> > Sumavision, as well as others.  Many of the C-DOCSIS CMTSs seem either
> only
> > support, or are more often meant to support layer 2 operations where the
> > routing happens upstream from the CMTS.
> >
> > Graham Johnston
> > Network Planner
> > Westman Communications Group
> > 204.717.2829
> > johnst...@westmancom.com
> > think green; don't print this email.
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Colton Conor
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2016 8:00 AM
> > To: Daniel Corbe
> > Cc: NANOG
> > Subject: Re: Cable Operator List
> >
> > Well, maybe NANOG's not a bad place for this post then! I would like to
> > know more about the data-only side of CMTS systems, and who the main
> > vendors are.
> >
> > We have MDU properties where there is either old inside CAT3 phone wire,
> or
> > coaxial cable. We have looked and are very familiar with the multiple
> > technologies that work over phone lines namely VDSL2 and G.FAST. However,
> > using the coaxial cable seems to be a much better solution than using the
> > phone wires.
> >
> > So I am looking for compacts, low cost CMTS systems. Based on the specs,
> I
> > am looking for something at least DOCSIS 3.0 capable, with at least 16X4
> > output. Something with the ability to upgrade to software upgrade to
> DOCSIS
> > 3.1 would be nice, but I doubt that would be a low cost solution.
> >
> > Whats out there for small operators that don't want a large chassis based
> > system to feed an entire town with.
> >
> > So far I have found the
> > http://picodigital.com/product-details.php?ID=miniCMTS200a which seems
> to
> > retail for under $5000.
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 7:48 AM, Daniel Corbe <dco...@hammerfiber.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > > On Feb 2, 2016, at 8:42 AM, Colton Conor <colton.co...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Are there any mailing lists out there dedicated for cable/MSO type
> > > > operators?
> > > >
> > >
> > > I'm curious about this too.
> > >
> > > I’m not a cable operator (in that I haven’t successfully registered
> for a
> > > cable franchise yet) but I do operate a docsis network and I’ve
> > > successfully negotiated the treacherous waters of obtaining and
> providing
> > > content to my users.
> > >
> > > I’m still a bit green behind the ears but I could probably offer some
> > > measure of assistance if you have a specific question.
> > >
> > > -Daniel
> > >
> > >
> >
>

Re: Cable Operator List

[Valdis . Kletnieks]

On Tue, 02 Feb 2016 14:26:14 +, Nick Hilliard said:
> Jared Mauch wrote:
> > I can create a catv or similar list easily.  good name
> > suggestions welcome.
>
> "There are only two hard things in Computer Science: cache invalidation
> and naming things".

They're only hard because all *other* problems in CS are solved by adding
a layer of redirection


pgp4Sne5HzLlx.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Cable Operator List

[Nick Hilliard]

Scott Helms wrote:
> That very small upside for an extreme downside.Trying to hire someone
> to work on your system with Euro channelization, not to mention buying
> amplifiers and passives is a huge PITA.

... if your plant is in the US.

> I have customers in Europe who
> decided to do US DOCSIS and they universally wish they had used the
> local "flavor".

as you say, eurodocsis works well in europe.

3.1 will be a major improvement when it materialises.

Nick

Re: Cable Operator List

[Colton Conor]

Graham,

What is DSG? Yes, I am really looking for a CMTS to perform layer 2 just as
our DSLAMs and GPON do today. All layer 3 will be upstream. I would want to
handle DHCP upstream, but have the CMTS insert Option 82 if that is a
feature. Not sure what specific CMTS stuff you need.

On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 8:12 AM, Graham Johnston <johnst...@westmancom.com>
wrote:

> Colton,
>
> It really depends on what features you are after.  I've demo'd one of the
> small 1/2RU C-DOCSIS CMTSs, and they certainly work.  For us though it was
> a non-starter as we needed support for DSG and it didn't have it.  If all
> you are after is basic internet connectivity there is Pico Digital, Vecima,
> Sumavision, as well as others.  Many of the C-DOCSIS CMTSs seem either only
> support, or are more often meant to support layer 2 operations where the
> routing happens upstream from the CMTS.
>
> Graham Johnston
> Network Planner
> Westman Communications Group
> 204.717.2829
> johnst...@westmancom.com
> think green; don't print this email.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Colton Conor
> Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2016 8:00 AM
> To: Daniel Corbe
> Cc: NANOG
> Subject: Re: Cable Operator List
>
> Well, maybe NANOG's not a bad place for this post then! I would like to
> know more about the data-only side of CMTS systems, and who the main
> vendors are.
>
> We have MDU properties where there is either old inside CAT3 phone wire, or
> coaxial cable. We have looked and are very familiar with the multiple
> technologies that work over phone lines namely VDSL2 and G.FAST. However,
> using the coaxial cable seems to be a much better solution than using the
> phone wires.
>
> So I am looking for compacts, low cost CMTS systems. Based on the specs, I
> am looking for something at least DOCSIS 3.0 capable, with at least 16X4
> output. Something with the ability to upgrade to software upgrade to DOCSIS
> 3.1 would be nice, but I doubt that would be a low cost solution.
>
> Whats out there for small operators that don't want a large chassis based
> system to feed an entire town with.
>
> So far I have found the
> http://picodigital.com/product-details.php?ID=miniCMTS200a which seems to
> retail for under $5000.
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 7:48 AM, Daniel Corbe <dco...@hammerfiber.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > > On Feb 2, 2016, at 8:42 AM, Colton Conor <colton.co...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Are there any mailing lists out there dedicated for cable/MSO type
> > > operators?
> > >
> >
> > I'm curious about this too.
> >
> > I’m not a cable operator (in that I haven’t successfully registered for a
> > cable franchise yet) but I do operate a docsis network and I’ve
> > successfully negotiated the treacherous waters of obtaining and providing
> > content to my users.
> >
> > I’m still a bit green behind the ears but I could probably offer some
> > measure of assistance if you have a specific question.
> >
> > -Daniel
> >
> >
>

Re: Cable Operator List

[Colton Conor]

Daniel,

Thanks for the wealth of information. What kind of speeds are you offering?
How many customers are you putting on one of these boxes? What modems are
you using?

I would honestly perfer something that was hardened for outdoor use. Think
garden style apartments. What is the best for something like that?

Comparing DOCIS 3 to VDSL2, the modems and CMTS appear to be more cost
effective per customer. G.FAST I have  not seen pricing on, but I expect it
to be more than VDSL2.

Any reasons not to use EURO DOCSIS in the USA? Looks like it offers more
speeds by using fatter channels. We don't plan on offering TV, but even if
we did couldn't we just start the channels at a higher range, and still use
EURO DOCSIS?

On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 8:17 AM, Daniel Corbe  wrote:

> Hey Colton,
>
> We’re using small 16 channel CMTS systems for residential MDUs and
> colocating them directly on premise inside of wiring closets and then
> connecting them by metro ethernet.  We’ve had great successes so far with
> this model.
>
> There’s lots of CMTS vendors.
>
> There’s tons of used Motorola BSR 64Ks on the market, but be aware of the
> lack of useful IPv6 features (like prefix delegation) in older software
> releases.  If you buy a box and want to run 7.x or 8.x, you’ll need to
> relicense your downstream and upstream channels at some additional
> arbitrary fixed cost.
>
> I’m personally fond of these things:
>
> http://picodigital.com/product-details.php?ID=miniCMTS200a
>
> You can only bond 16 channels together max though because that’s all the
> box supports and you can’t bond across boxes; however, these things are
> less than 4 grand if you buy them in bulk so they’re really fucking easy to
> just spam everywhere.
>
> Blonder Tongue makes a pizza-box style CMTS too:
>
>
> http://www.blondertongue.com/shop-by-department/catv/ip-over-coax/docsis/euro-docsis/
>
> As does Harmonics:
>
> http://harmonicinc.com/product/cable-edge/nsg-exo
>
> All three are based on the same chipset, so the real differentiation is
> price and firmware features.
>
> Then there’s Cisco.
>
> The UBR is a popular platform.  And pretty soon there’s going to be a glut
> of UBR10Ks on the Market because Comcast is busy ripping their UBRs out of
> production because they’re upgrading their cable plant to the CBR platform.
>
> Then the Arris C4, if you have deep pockets, is a modern version of the
> BSR:
>
> http://www.arris.com/products/c4-cmts/
>
>
> > On Feb 2, 2016, at 9:00 AM, Colton Conor  wrote:
> >
> > Well, maybe NANOG's not a bad place for this post then! I would like to
> know more about the data-only side of CMTS systems, and who the main
> vendors are.
> >
> > We have MDU properties where there is either old inside CAT3 phone wire,
> or coaxial cable. We have looked and are very familiar with the multiple
> technologies that work over phone lines namely VDSL2 and G.FAST. However,
> using the coaxial cable seems to be a much better solution than using the
> phone wires.
> >
> > So I am looking for compacts, low cost CMTS systems. Based on the specs,
> I am looking for something at least DOCSIS 3.0 capable, with at least 16X4
> output. Something with the ability to upgrade to software upgrade to DOCSIS
> 3.1 would be nice, but I doubt that would be a low cost solution.
> >
> > Whats out there for small operators that don't want a large chassis
> based system to feed an entire town with.
> >
> > So far I have found the
> http://picodigital.com/product-details.php?ID=miniCMTS200a which seems to
> retail for under $5000.
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 7:48 AM, Daniel Corbe 
> wrote:
> >
> > > On Feb 2, 2016, at 8:42 AM, Colton Conor 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Are there any mailing lists out there dedicated for cable/MSO type
> > > operators?
> > >
> >
> > I'm curious about this too.
> >
> > I’m not a cable operator (in that I haven’t successfully registered for
> a cable franchise yet) but I do operate a docsis network and I’ve
> successfully negotiated the treacherous waters of obtaining and providing
> content to my users.
> >
> > I’m still a bit green behind the ears but I could probably offer some
> measure of assistance if you have a specific question.
> >
> > -Daniel
> >
> >
>
>

Re: Cable Operator List

[Scott Helms]

The biggest reason to not do EuroDOCSIS is logistics and dealing with
various TAC organizations versus a pretty small increase in per channel
performance (but not per hertz).  I'd pretty strongly recommend against it,
just because you're going to run into issues ranging from buying modems, to
dealing with node vendors, to finding people who can do basic stuff like
plant balancing.  You wouldn't think it would matter, but it throws people
off to see that extra channel bandwidth.

My 2 cents, buy CMTS/CCAP gear that's upgradeable to D3.1, ie CBR8, E6000,
or the big Casa unit, for the time being shoot for 24 channel downstream
bonding groups (24 * ~37mbps - overhead) which yields about 740 mbps
usable.  That's plenty for most nodes, especially since you're not offering
video you can have many bonding groups since channel space isn't a problem.


Scott Helms
Chief Technology Officer
ZCorum
(678) 507-5000

http://twitter.com/kscotthelms


On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 10:47 AM, Colton Conor 
wrote:

> Daniel,
>
> Thanks for the wealth of information. What kind of speeds are you offering?
> How many customers are you putting on one of these boxes? What modems are
> you using?
>
> I would honestly perfer something that was hardened for outdoor use. Think
> garden style apartments. What is the best for something like that?
>
> Comparing DOCIS 3 to VDSL2, the modems and CMTS appear to be more cost
> effective per customer. G.FAST I have  not seen pricing on, but I expect it
> to be more than VDSL2.
>
> Any reasons not to use EURO DOCSIS in the USA? Looks like it offers more
> speeds by using fatter channels. We don't plan on offering TV, but even if
> we did couldn't we just start the channels at a higher range, and still use
> EURO DOCSIS?
>
> On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 8:17 AM, Daniel Corbe 
> wrote:
>
> > Hey Colton,
> >
> > We’re using small 16 channel CMTS systems for residential MDUs and
> > colocating them directly on premise inside of wiring closets and then
> > connecting them by metro ethernet.  We’ve had great successes so far with
> > this model.
> >
> > There’s lots of CMTS vendors.
> >
> > There’s tons of used Motorola BSR 64Ks on the market, but be aware of the
> > lack of useful IPv6 features (like prefix delegation) in older software
> > releases.  If you buy a box and want to run 7.x or 8.x, you’ll need to
> > relicense your downstream and upstream channels at some additional
> > arbitrary fixed cost.
> >
> > I’m personally fond of these things:
> >
> > http://picodigital.com/product-details.php?ID=miniCMTS200a
> >
> > You can only bond 16 channels together max though because that’s all the
> > box supports and you can’t bond across boxes; however, these things are
> > less than 4 grand if you buy them in bulk so they’re really fucking easy
> to
> > just spam everywhere.
> >
> > Blonder Tongue makes a pizza-box style CMTS too:
> >
> >
> >
> http://www.blondertongue.com/shop-by-department/catv/ip-over-coax/docsis/euro-docsis/
> >
> > As does Harmonics:
> >
> > http://harmonicinc.com/product/cable-edge/nsg-exo
> >
> > All three are based on the same chipset, so the real differentiation is
> > price and firmware features.
> >
> > Then there’s Cisco.
> >
> > The UBR is a popular platform.  And pretty soon there’s going to be a
> glut
> > of UBR10Ks on the Market because Comcast is busy ripping their UBRs out
> of
> > production because they’re upgrading their cable plant to the CBR
> platform.
> >
> > Then the Arris C4, if you have deep pockets, is a modern version of the
> > BSR:
> >
> > http://www.arris.com/products/c4-cmts/
> >
> >
> > > On Feb 2, 2016, at 9:00 AM, Colton Conor 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Well, maybe NANOG's not a bad place for this post then! I would like to
> > know more about the data-only side of CMTS systems, and who the main
> > vendors are.
> > >
> > > We have MDU properties where there is either old inside CAT3 phone
> wire,
> > or coaxial cable. We have looked and are very familiar with the multiple
> > technologies that work over phone lines namely VDSL2 and G.FAST. However,
> > using the coaxial cable seems to be a much better solution than using the
> > phone wires.
> > >
> > > So I am looking for compacts, low cost CMTS systems. Based on the
> specs,
> > I am looking for something at least DOCSIS 3.0 capable, with at least
> 16X4
> > output. Something with the ability to upgrade to software upgrade to
> DOCSIS
> > 3.1 would be nice, but I doubt that would be a low cost solution.
> > >
> > > Whats out there for small operators that don't want a large chassis
> > based system to feed an entire town with.
> > >
> > > So far I have found the
> > http://picodigital.com/product-details.php?ID=miniCMTS200a which seems
> to
> > retail for under $5000.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 7:48 AM, Daniel Corbe 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > 

Re: Cable Operator List

[Scott Helms]

Nick,

Absolutely, if your plant is in Europe or one of the other areas (lots of
Africa and the middle East is like that) that adopted EuroDOCSIS I'd agree
wholeheartedly.  I didn't see Colton say where they're located, but all
North America is the US flavor so that's what I assume on NANOG.

That being said, the best thing that seldom gets mentioned about D3.1 is
getting us to unified channelization.
Scott Helms wrote:
> That very small upside for an extreme downside.Trying to hire someone
> to work on your system with Euro channelization, not to mention buying
> amplifiers and passives is a huge PITA.

... if your plant is in the US.

> I have customers in Europe who
> decided to do US DOCSIS and they universally wish they had used the
> local "flavor".

as you say, eurodocsis works well in europe.

3.1 will be a major improvement when it materialises.

Nick

Re: Cable Operator List

[Daniel Corbe]

In-line below.

-Daniel

> On Feb 2, 2016, at 10:47 AM, Colton Conor  wrote:
> 
> Daniel,
> 
> Thanks for the wealth of information. What kind of speeds are you offering? 
> How many customers are you putting on one of these boxes? What modems are you 
> using?

We’re using Arris modems because we have the least amount of signal-related 
issues with them.  We’ve had to drop to 64qam because portions of our network 
runs over the air and we run into SNR issues at 256qam on the downstream.  This 
is important because it basically halves our available bandwidth.  I quoted 
some figures below based strictly on channel width but the reality of our 
situation is we see about half those numbers.

We don’t cap our users.  Every modem on the network can bond all 16 channels if 
it’s capable and it wants to.  We’ve got one plan.  Which means they can burst 
as high as they want within reason.  Every month we’re in contact with the top 
talkers in each sector and we ask them to curb their bandwidth usage.  

With this model we get about 50 to 75 users to every 16 channel CMTS we deploy. 
 In a 200 unit apartment building, we’d deploy 4 to 6 boxes.   On a 2000 user 
airbox station, we’d deploy about 20 of them.  

There’s also one more consideration.  Our TV service is IPTV.  Since we’re not 
pumping DVB-C or DVB-S signal down the cable, we’ve got nearly a full Ghz of 
spectrum with which to use for DOCSIS channels.  This gives us a lot of 
flexibility to just add additional CMTS when we begin to run into capacity 
issues.

> 
> I would honestly perfer something that was hardened for outdoor use. Think 
> garden style apartments. What is the best for something like that? 

I’m sure someone somewhere makes an environmentally hardened CMTS but I’m not 
currently aware of any at the moment.  Most of my equipment sits in wiring 
closets. 

> Any reasons not to use EURO DOCSIS in the USA? Looks like it offers more 
> speeds by using fatter channels. We don't plan on offering TV, but even if we 
> did couldn't we just start the channels at a higher range, and still use EURO 
> DOCSIS? 

EuroDOCSIS would be a better option if you’re looking to maximize bits per 
hertz and have enough spectrum to play with.  You get 8Mhz channels for 6Mhz 
channels which means at 16 channels you’ll get 800Mbit/sec to a modem instead 
of 640Mbit.

> 
> On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 8:17 AM, Daniel Corbe  wrote:
> Hey Colton,
> 
> We’re using small 16 channel CMTS systems for residential MDUs and colocating 
> them directly on premise inside of wiring closets and then connecting them by 
> metro ethernet.  We’ve had great successes so far with this model.
> 
> There’s lots of CMTS vendors.
> 
> There’s tons of used Motorola BSR 64Ks on the market, but be aware of the 
> lack of useful IPv6 features (like prefix delegation) in older software 
> releases.  If you buy a box and want to run 7.x or 8.x, you’ll need to 
> relicense your downstream and upstream channels at some additional arbitrary 
> fixed cost.
> 
> I’m personally fond of these things:
> 
> http://picodigital.com/product-details.php?ID=miniCMTS200a
> 
> You can only bond 16 channels together max though because that’s all the box 
> supports and you can’t bond across boxes; however, these things are less than 
> 4 grand if you buy them in bulk so they’re really fucking easy to just spam 
> everywhere.
> 
> Blonder Tongue makes a pizza-box style CMTS too:
> 
> http://www.blondertongue.com/shop-by-department/catv/ip-over-coax/docsis/euro-docsis/
> 
> As does Harmonics:
> 
> http://harmonicinc.com/product/cable-edge/nsg-exo
> 
> All three are based on the same chipset, so the real differentiation is price 
> and firmware features.
> 
> Then there’s Cisco.
> 
> The UBR is a popular platform.  And pretty soon there’s going to be a glut of 
> UBR10Ks on the Market because Comcast is busy ripping their UBRs out of 
> production because they’re upgrading their cable plant to the CBR platform.
> 
> Then the Arris C4, if you have deep pockets, is a modern version of the BSR:
> 
> http://www.arris.com/products/c4-cmts/
> 
> 
> > On Feb 2, 2016, at 9:00 AM, Colton Conor  wrote:
> >
> > Well, maybe NANOG's not a bad place for this post then! I would like to 
> > know more about the data-only side of CMTS systems, and who the main 
> > vendors are.
> >
> > We have MDU properties where there is either old inside CAT3 phone wire, or 
> > coaxial cable. We have looked and are very familiar with the multiple 
> > technologies that work over phone lines namely VDSL2 and G.FAST. However, 
> > using the coaxial cable seems to be a much better solution than using the 
> > phone wires.
> >
> > So I am looking for compacts, low cost CMTS systems. Based on the specs, I 
> > am looking for something at least DOCSIS 3.0 capable, with at least 16X4 
> > output. Something with the ability to upgrade to software upgrade to DOCSIS 
> > 3.1 would be 

Re: Cable Operator List

[Scott Helms]

Nick,

That very small upside for an extreme downside.  Trying to hire someone to
work on your system with Euro channelization, not to mention buying
amplifiers and passives is a huge PITA.  I have customers in Europe who
decided to do US DOCSIS and they universally wish they had used the local
"flavor".


Scott Helms
Chief Technology Officer
ZCorum
(678) 507-5000

http://twitter.com/kscotthelms


On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 11:12 AM, Nick Hilliard  wrote:

> Scott Helms wrote:
> > My 2 cents, buy CMTS/CCAP gear that's upgradeable to D3.1, ie CBR8,
> E6000,
> > or the big Casa unit, for the time being shoot for 24 channel downstream
> > bonding groups (24 * ~37mbps - overhead) which yields about 740 mbps
> > usable.
>
> the good thing about eurodocsis is that it gives you a full 1gig usable
> if you're bonding over 24 channels.  There's a natural residential
> performance plateau at 1G because 10G NICs haven't really made it to the
> consumer level yet, which means that if you want to hand off > 1gbit,
> things become more expensive and/or more complicated.
>
> Nick
>

Re: Cable Operator List

[Alex Brooks]

Hi,

On 2 February 2016 at 15:47, Colton Conor  wrote:



> I would honestly perfer something that was hardened for outdoor use. Think
> garden style apartments. What is the best for something like that?

It depends where you are going to be deploying these things, northern
New York state?  Arizona?  There's a reason curbside cabinets exist.

>
> Comparing DOCIS 3 to VDSL2, the modems and CMTS appear to be more cost
> effective per customer. G.FAST I have  not seen pricing on, but I expect it
> to be more than VDSL2.
>
> Any reasons not to use EURO DOCSIS in the USA? Looks like it offers more
> speeds by using fatter channels. We don't plan on offering TV, but even if
> we did couldn't we just start the channels at a higher range, and still use
> EURO DOCSIS?
>

In the UK, half the country is using EURODOCSIS, half DOCSIS
(historical reasons - the original companies had different ideas.  I
know that Liberty Global - who bought them all - can't wait for the
new 3.1 standard where there will be no difference).  One problem with
using the 'wrong' one is simply around signal leakage.  What happens
when some fool leaves an unterminated bit of coax lying around?  What
frequencies is this new areal broadcasting on?  Remember, even if the
customer is the one who unterminates the cable it's still your problem
to detect and fix.

You will need to get EURODOCSIS equipment (including CPE) that:
-Works on 110v (the EU uses 230v)
-Has an FCC sticker rather than a CE sticker
-Isn't going to break any FCC rules if used in EURODOCSIS mode
-Has support available in North America

The key differences are summarised at
https://www.excentis.com/blog/differences-between-us-docsis-and-eurodocsis-and-will-docsis-31-eliminate-them.
There a a lot more to it than the channel width!

On a separate note, remember that G.FAST is extremely sensitive to
dodgy wiring and line length.  If the local loop length length gets
near 500 yards you will be lucky to hit 150Mbps down.  Over 500 yards
and you will be lucky to hold sync outside of a lab.

Alex

Re: Cable Operator List

[Nick Hilliard]

Scott Helms wrote:
> My 2 cents, buy CMTS/CCAP gear that's upgradeable to D3.1, ie CBR8, E6000,
> or the big Casa unit, for the time being shoot for 24 channel downstream
> bonding groups (24 * ~37mbps - overhead) which yields about 740 mbps
> usable.

the good thing about eurodocsis is that it gives you a full 1gig usable
if you're bonding over 24 channels.  There's a natural residential
performance plateau at 1G because 10G NICs haven't really made it to the
consumer level yet, which means that if you want to hand off > 1gbit,
things become more expensive and/or more complicated.

Nick

Re: Cable Operator List

[Edwin Mallette]

Hi Colton,

For what it sounds like you’re really looking for, a remote MAC-PHY (or
pre remote MAC-PHY, ala mini CMTS) would probably be the good fit for your
application.  This is certainly not an endorsement, as we haven’t used any
remote MAC-PHY devices today.

There are a couple players pouring money into products that haven’t really
been mentioned yet...
1) Huawei - which initially brought a mini CMTS to market (D3.0, 16x4.)
Some C-DOCSIS stuff, so may be feature poor but it doesn’t sound like you
really need the boatload of features that are in a classic full-size CMTS
anyway.  Not sure what’s going on with their D3.1 remote MAC-PHY general
availability is either.
2) Gainspeed - D3.0/D3.1 product (not sure about where the generally
availability of their product lines are) but if you happen to be a Juniper
customer, they partner with Gainspeed so it can be easy to get engaged
with them.

Ed

On 2/2/16, 11:03 AM, "NANOG on behalf of Scott Helms"
<nanog-boun...@nanog.org on behalf of khe...@zcorum.com> wrote:

>Colton,
>
>You're only going to find very small, old, or not certified (usually still
>very small) CMTSs that only do layer 2.  All of the major vendors are
>doing
>layer 3 because we've found out over time that not doing it is more
>problematic.  Having said that, if you're looking for a more ONT/DSLAM
>type
>of install there is a new type of CMTSs that look at lot like traditional
>telco DLC/BLC deployments.
>
>https://intx15.ncta.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/17-Remote-PHY.pdf
>
>The remote PHY+MAC boxes are basically mini-CMTSs and they typically rely
>on something upstream handling layer 3.  The remote PHY boxes are
>different
>as they don't even do a complete layer 2 and instead forward DOCSIS frames
>back to a centralized CMTS/CCAP.
>
>
>
>Scott Helms
>Chief Technology Officer
>ZCorum
>(678) 507-5000
>
>http://twitter.com/kscotthelms
>
>
>On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Colton Conor <colton.co...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>> Graham,
>>
>> What is DSG? Yes, I am really looking for a CMTS to perform layer 2
>>just as
>> our DSLAMs and GPON do today. All layer 3 will be upstream. I would
>>want to
>> handle DHCP upstream, but have the CMTS insert Option 82 if that is a
>> feature. Not sure what specific CMTS stuff you need.
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 8:12 AM, Graham Johnston
>><johnst...@westmancom.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Colton,
>> >
>> > It really depends on what features you are after.  I've demo'd one of
>>the
>> > small 1/2RU C-DOCSIS CMTSs, and they certainly work.  For us though it
>> was
>> > a non-starter as we needed support for DSG and it didn't have it.  If
>>all
>> > you are after is basic internet connectivity there is Pico Digital,
>> Vecima,
>> > Sumavision, as well as others.  Many of the C-DOCSIS CMTSs seem either
>> only
>> > support, or are more often meant to support layer 2 operations where
>>the
>> > routing happens upstream from the CMTS.
>> >
>> > Graham Johnston
>> > Network Planner
>> > Westman Communications Group
>> > 204.717.2829
>> > johnst...@westmancom.com
>> > think green; don't print this email.
>> >
>> >
>> > -Original Message-
>> > From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Colton Conor
>> > Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2016 8:00 AM
>> > To: Daniel Corbe
>> > Cc: NANOG
>> > Subject: Re: Cable Operator List
>> >
>> > Well, maybe NANOG's not a bad place for this post then! I would like
>>to
>> > know more about the data-only side of CMTS systems, and who the main
>> > vendors are.
>> >
>> > We have MDU properties where there is either old inside CAT3 phone
>>wire,
>> or
>> > coaxial cable. We have looked and are very familiar with the multiple
>> > technologies that work over phone lines namely VDSL2 and G.FAST.
>>However,
>> > using the coaxial cable seems to be a much better solution than using
>>the
>> > phone wires.
>> >
>> > So I am looking for compacts, low cost CMTS systems. Based on the
>>specs,
>> I
>> > am looking for something at least DOCSIS 3.0 capable, with at least
>>16X4
>> > output. Something with the ability to upgrade to software upgrade to
>> DOCSIS
>> > 3.1 would be nice, but I doubt that would be a low cost solution.
>> >
>> > Whats out there for small operators that don't want a large chassis
>>b

Re: Cable Operator List

[jamie rishaw]

56k's for everyone!
Lets bring the #OldInternet back!

On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 10:03 AM, Scott Helms <khe...@zcorum.com> wrote:

> Colton,
>
> You're only going to find very small, old, or not certified (usually still
> very small) CMTSs that only do layer 2.  All of the major vendors are doing
> layer 3 because we've found out over time that not doing it is more
> problematic.  Having said that, if you're looking for a more ONT/DSLAM type
> of install there is a new type of CMTSs that look at lot like traditional
> telco DLC/BLC deployments.
>
> https://intx15.ncta.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/17-Remote-PHY.pdf
>
> The remote PHY+MAC boxes are basically mini-CMTSs and they typically rely
> on something upstream handling layer 3.  The remote PHY boxes are different
> as they don't even do a complete layer 2 and instead forward DOCSIS frames
> back to a centralized CMTS/CCAP.
>
>
>
> Scott Helms
> Chief Technology Officer
> ZCorum
> (678) 507-5000
> 
> http://twitter.com/kscotthelms
> 
>
> On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Colton Conor <colton.co...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Graham,
> >
> > What is DSG? Yes, I am really looking for a CMTS to perform layer 2 just
> as
> > our DSLAMs and GPON do today. All layer 3 will be upstream. I would want
> to
> > handle DHCP upstream, but have the CMTS insert Option 82 if that is a
> > feature. Not sure what specific CMTS stuff you need.
> >
> > On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 8:12 AM, Graham Johnston <
> johnst...@westmancom.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Colton,
> > >
> > > It really depends on what features you are after.  I've demo'd one of
> the
> > > small 1/2RU C-DOCSIS CMTSs, and they certainly work.  For us though it
> > was
> > > a non-starter as we needed support for DSG and it didn't have it.  If
> all
> > > you are after is basic internet connectivity there is Pico Digital,
> > Vecima,
> > > Sumavision, as well as others.  Many of the C-DOCSIS CMTSs seem either
> > only
> > > support, or are more often meant to support layer 2 operations where
> the
> > > routing happens upstream from the CMTS.
> > >
> > > Graham Johnston
> > > Network Planner
> > > Westman Communications Group
> > > 204.717.2829
> > > johnst...@westmancom.com
> > > think green; don't print this email.
> > >
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Colton Conor
> > > Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2016 8:00 AM
> > > To: Daniel Corbe
> > > Cc: NANOG
> > > Subject: Re: Cable Operator List
> > >
> > > Well, maybe NANOG's not a bad place for this post then! I would like to
> > > know more about the data-only side of CMTS systems, and who the main
> > > vendors are.
> > >
> > > We have MDU properties where there is either old inside CAT3 phone
> wire,
> > or
> > > coaxial cable. We have looked and are very familiar with the multiple
> > > technologies that work over phone lines namely VDSL2 and G.FAST.
> However,
> > > using the coaxial cable seems to be a much better solution than using
> the
> > > phone wires.
> > >
> > > So I am looking for compacts, low cost CMTS systems. Based on the
> specs,
> > I
> > > am looking for something at least DOCSIS 3.0 capable, with at least
> 16X4
> > > output. Something with the ability to upgrade to software upgrade to
> > DOCSIS
> > > 3.1 would be nice, but I doubt that would be a low cost solution.
> > >
> > > Whats out there for small operators that don't want a large chassis
> based
> > > system to feed an entire town with.
> > >
> > > So far I have found the
> > > http://picodigital.com/product-details.php?ID=miniCMTS200a which seems
> > to
> > > retail for under $5000.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 7:48 AM, Daniel Corbe <dco...@hammerfiber.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > On Feb 2, 2016, at 8:42 AM, Colton Conor <colton.co...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Are there any mailing lists out there dedicated for cable/MSO type
> > > > > operators?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I'm curious about this too.
> > > >
> > > > I’m not a cable operator (in that I haven’t successfully registered
> > for a
> > > > cable franchise yet) but I do operate a docsis network and I’ve
> > > > successfully negotiated the treacherous waters of obtaining and
> > providing
> > > > content to my users.
> > > >
> > > > I’m still a bit green behind the ears but I could probably offer some
> > > > measure of assistance if you have a specific question.
> > > >
> > > > -Daniel
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>



-- 
// jamie rishaw //

"*My religion is very simple. My religion is kindness."*
  -  the 14th Dalai Lama; བསྟན་འཛིན་རྒྱ་མཚོ་

Re: Cable Operator List

[Daniel Corbe]

> On Feb 2, 2016, at 8:42 AM, Colton Conor  wrote:
> 
> Are there any mailing lists out there dedicated for cable/MSO type
> operators?
> 

I'm curious about this too.

I’m not a cable operator (in that I haven’t successfully registered for a cable 
franchise yet) but I do operate a docsis network and I’ve successfully 
negotiated the treacherous waters of obtaining and providing content to my 
users.  

I’m still a bit green behind the ears but I could probably offer some measure 
of assistance if you have a specific question.

-Daniel

Re: Cable Operator List

[Benjamin Hatton]

The Cable TV List (http://cabletvlist.com/) doesn't get much traffic, but
it does have some quality people on it that can answer most CATV
questions.  It is heavily weighted on the TV side, so most things are
related to transport gear, IRDs, and distribution equipment.  I am unaware
of any DOCSIS specific mailing lists, but if anyone out there does know of
one I would like to know about it as well.

On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 8:48 AM, Daniel Corbe  wrote:

>
> > On Feb 2, 2016, at 8:42 AM, Colton Conor  wrote:
> >
> > Are there any mailing lists out there dedicated for cable/MSO type
> > operators?
> >
>
> I'm curious about this too.
>
> I’m not a cable operator (in that I haven’t successfully registered for a
> cable franchise yet) but I do operate a docsis network and I’ve
> successfully negotiated the treacherous waters of obtaining and providing
> content to my users.
>
> I’m still a bit green behind the ears but I could probably offer some
> measure of assistance if you have a specific question.
>
> -Daniel
>
>


-- 

*Ben Hatton*

Network Engineer

Haefele TV Inc.

bhat...@htva.net

www.htva.net

Re: Cable Operator List

[Colton Conor]

Well, maybe NANOG's not a bad place for this post then! I would like to
know more about the data-only side of CMTS systems, and who the main
vendors are.

We have MDU properties where there is either old inside CAT3 phone wire, or
coaxial cable. We have looked and are very familiar with the multiple
technologies that work over phone lines namely VDSL2 and G.FAST. However,
using the coaxial cable seems to be a much better solution than using the
phone wires.

So I am looking for compacts, low cost CMTS systems. Based on the specs, I
am looking for something at least DOCSIS 3.0 capable, with at least 16X4
output. Something with the ability to upgrade to software upgrade to DOCSIS
3.1 would be nice, but I doubt that would be a low cost solution.

Whats out there for small operators that don't want a large chassis based
system to feed an entire town with.

So far I have found the
http://picodigital.com/product-details.php?ID=miniCMTS200a which seems to
retail for under $5000.


On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 7:48 AM, Daniel Corbe  wrote:

>
> > On Feb 2, 2016, at 8:42 AM, Colton Conor  wrote:
> >
> > Are there any mailing lists out there dedicated for cable/MSO type
> > operators?
> >
>
> I'm curious about this too.
>
> I’m not a cable operator (in that I haven’t successfully registered for a
> cable franchise yet) but I do operate a docsis network and I’ve
> successfully negotiated the treacherous waters of obtaining and providing
> content to my users.
>
> I’m still a bit green behind the ears but I could probably offer some
> measure of assistance if you have a specific question.
>
> -Daniel
>
>

RE: Cable Operator List

[Graham Johnston]

Those that are SCTE members have access to the SCTE mailing list.  Like the 
comments about the CableTV list, it is often focused on plant/transport/RF more 
than Docsis but there are good DOCSIS knowledgeable people on the list too that 
answer questions.

Graham Johnston
Network Planner
Westman Communications Group
204.717.2829
johnst...@westmancom.com
think green; don't print this email.


-Original Message-
From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Colton Conor
Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2016 7:42 AM
To: NANOG
Subject: Cable Operator List

Are there any mailing lists out there dedicated for cable/MSO type
operators?

Re: Cable Operator List

[Jared Mauch]

On Tue, Feb 02, 2016 at 08:53:36AM -0500, Benjamin Hatton wrote:
> The Cable TV List (http://cabletvlist.com/) doesn't get much traffic, but
> it does have some quality people on it that can answer most CATV
> questions.  It is heavily weighted on the TV side, so most things are
> related to transport gear, IRDs, and distribution equipment.  I am unaware
> of any DOCSIS specific mailing lists, but if anyone out there does know of
> one I would like to know about it as well.

In the past I was asked to create the cisco-ubr list
to cover some of these types of things.

https://puck.nether.net/pipermail/cisco-ubr/

I can create a catv or similar list easily.  good name
suggestions welcome.

- jared

-- 
Jared Mauch  | pgp key available via finger from ja...@puck.nether.net
clue++;  | http://puck.nether.net/~jared/  My statements are only mine.

RE: Cable Operator List

[Graham Johnston]

Colton,

It really depends on what features you are after.  I've demo'd one of the small 
1/2RU C-DOCSIS CMTSs, and they certainly work.  For us though it was a 
non-starter as we needed support for DSG and it didn't have it.  If all you are 
after is basic internet connectivity there is Pico Digital, Vecima, Sumavision, 
as well as others.  Many of the C-DOCSIS CMTSs seem either only support, or are 
more often meant to support layer 2 operations where the routing happens 
upstream from the CMTS.

Graham Johnston
Network Planner
Westman Communications Group
204.717.2829
johnst...@westmancom.com
think green; don't print this email.


-Original Message-
From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Colton Conor
Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2016 8:00 AM
To: Daniel Corbe
Cc: NANOG
Subject: Re: Cable Operator List

Well, maybe NANOG's not a bad place for this post then! I would like to
know more about the data-only side of CMTS systems, and who the main
vendors are.

We have MDU properties where there is either old inside CAT3 phone wire, or
coaxial cable. We have looked and are very familiar with the multiple
technologies that work over phone lines namely VDSL2 and G.FAST. However,
using the coaxial cable seems to be a much better solution than using the
phone wires.

So I am looking for compacts, low cost CMTS systems. Based on the specs, I
am looking for something at least DOCSIS 3.0 capable, with at least 16X4
output. Something with the ability to upgrade to software upgrade to DOCSIS
3.1 would be nice, but I doubt that would be a low cost solution.

Whats out there for small operators that don't want a large chassis based
system to feed an entire town with.

So far I have found the
http://picodigital.com/product-details.php?ID=miniCMTS200a which seems to
retail for under $5000.


On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 7:48 AM, Daniel Corbe <dco...@hammerfiber.com> wrote:

>
> > On Feb 2, 2016, at 8:42 AM, Colton Conor <colton.co...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Are there any mailing lists out there dedicated for cable/MSO type
> > operators?
> >
>
> I'm curious about this too.
>
> I’m not a cable operator (in that I haven’t successfully registered for a
> cable franchise yet) but I do operate a docsis network and I’ve
> successfully negotiated the treacherous waters of obtaining and providing
> content to my users.
>
> I’m still a bit green behind the ears but I could probably offer some
> measure of assistance if you have a specific question.
>
> -Daniel
>
>