RE: DWDM on 250 Km dark fiber without re-amplification

[Robert Jacobs]

Polarization and dispersion will come into play at these distances if you plan 
on running a DWDM system.  In that world you get what you pay for as a rule.  
The more expensive gear is more forgiving to fiber that is not 100 % up to high 
quality.  Most small one or two RU gear from all the vendors mentioned have 100 
gig cards that will be 100 gig on the DWDM side and break it out to 10 sfp Plus 
ten gig ports for the client side.  Another thing to look for in this is link 
down propergation ... you will want the client facing links on both sides of 
the optical span to go down if the span goes down.  Good luck with your quest 

-Original Message-
From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Eric Kuhnke
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2016 1:18 PM
To: Jeremy <li...@freeheberg.com>; nanog@nanog.org list <nanog@nanog.org>
Subject: Re: DWDM on 250 Km dark fiber without re-amplification

You will want to request an OTDR characterization of the dark fiber path from 
its owner. If you can post OTDR "shots" with full resolution images in a 
lossless image format to the list, we may be able to take a guess if the 
distance is feasible without amplification inline.

For equipment choices you're looking at the usual vendors for DWDM long haul 
ROADM chassis such as Ciena, Adva, Huawei, ZTE, Infinera, etc.

If you simply want to do point to point DWDM mux:demux on the 250km fiber, your 
choices will be different than if you want the ability to insert a chassis at 
an intermediate location and drop or insert wavelengths.

It may be possible, at a lower cost than buying 100GbE capable DWDM chassis 
type systems, to do a single router-to-router linecard link with coherent 
100GbE signal with FEC on the 250km path. Again this will totally depend on the 
OTDR results and link budget available.


On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 4:14 PM, Jeremy <li...@freeheberg.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> First, i'm sorry for my english, i'm french and i don't have a good 
> level in this language. But i want some informations and i'm sure, 
> someone will be give the good anwser about my question.
>
> So, i'm regarding to rent a dual dark fiber in France, the estimated 
> distance is 225 Km, but i know there are a lot of optical switching on 
> the highway where it's fiber is installed (in theory, all 80 Km). So, 
> i used the bad scenario, in adding 25 Km on my need.
>
> I would like to buy a amplificator and multiplexer DWDM to add some 
> 10Gb/s waves on this dark fiber. I've see that the amplification is 
> better on 100 Gb/s synchronised ports, but we don't have enoug 
> capacity on our router to add 100 Gb/s interfaces.
>
> So, someone has installed this type of hardware on a dark fiber 
> without regeneration  on 250 Km of distance ?
> If yes, with what kind of hardware ? If you are commercial for this 
> hardware, please contact me in private message.
>
> Thanks you for your time,
> Jérémy
> AS197922
>
>

Re: DWDM on 250 Km dark fiber without re-amplification

[Eric Kuhnke]

You will want to request an OTDR characterization of the dark fiber path
from its owner. If you can post OTDR "shots" with full resolution images in
a lossless image format to the list, we may be able to take a guess if the
distance is feasible without amplification inline.

For equipment choices you're looking at the usual vendors for DWDM long
haul ROADM chassis such as Ciena, Adva, Huawei, ZTE, Infinera, etc.

If you simply want to do point to point DWDM mux:demux on the 250km fiber,
your choices will be different than if you want the ability to insert a
chassis at an intermediate location and drop or insert wavelengths.

It may be possible, at a lower cost than buying 100GbE capable DWDM chassis
type systems, to do a single router-to-router linecard link with coherent
100GbE signal with FEC on the 250km path. Again this will totally depend on
the OTDR results and link budget available.


On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 4:14 PM, Jeremy  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> First, i'm sorry for my english, i'm french and i don't have a good level
> in this language. But i want some informations and i'm sure, someone will
> be give the good anwser about my question.
>
> So, i'm regarding to rent a dual dark fiber in France, the estimated
> distance is 225 Km, but i know there are a lot of optical switching on the
> highway where it's fiber is installed (in theory, all 80 Km). So, i used
> the bad scenario, in adding 25 Km on my need.
>
> I would like to buy a amplificator and multiplexer DWDM to add some 10Gb/s
> waves on this dark fiber. I've see that the amplification is better on 100
> Gb/s synchronised ports, but we don't have enoug capacity on our router to
> add 100 Gb/s interfaces.
>
> So, someone has installed this type of hardware on a dark fiber without
> regeneration  on 250 Km of distance ?
> If yes, with what kind of hardware ? If you are commercial for this
> hardware, please contact me in private message.
>
> Thanks you for your time,
> Jérémy
> AS197922
>
>

Re: DWDM on 250 Km dark fiber without re-amplification

[Josh Galvez]

Jeremy,

SmartOptics is one such vendor that I've used in the past that may be able
to do this.

http://www.smartoptics.com/

-Josh

On Tue, Dec 27, 2016 at 10:41 AM, Brian R <briansupp...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> I have to agree with Brandon.  I have not worked with Ciena equipment
> directly but have work with carriers that use it.  I worked with Adtran on
> this kind of setup and like Brandon said they require a lot of information
> to build what is needed for each specific run (fiber type, quality, wave
> length optimization, number of splices, etc).  I've seen the tools Adtran
> uses to calculate exactly what equipment is required and it is pretty
> complex for distances even close to what you are talking about.
>
> Definitely check for a re-gen site(s), most likely the carrier has to
> re-gen their own runs down this fiber path (another thing to consider in
> the calculation matrix especially if you are not trying to re-gen your run).
>
>
> I have to give Baldur kudos for finding that I'm still amazed that
> Fiberstore is claiming that's possible without a lot of information.  I
> have worked with Fiberstore and they are a cooperative vendor and their
> products work for what we have used them for.
>
>
> My suggestion is to reach out to Fiberstore, Ciena, Adtran, and other
> vendors that people recommend with a detailed email of what you would like
> to accomplish and the information you can get.  Ask for a design engineer
> (I know Adtran has them and assume others do) to get the info you need and
> see what they can mock up for you.
>
>
> Brian
>
>
> 
> From: NANOG <nanog-boun...@nanog.org> on behalf of Brandon Martin <
> lists.na...@monmotha.net>
> Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2016 12:41 AM
> To: nanog@nanog.org
> Subject: Re: DWDM on 250 Km dark fiber without re-amplification
>
> On 12/23/2016 07:14 PM, Jeremy wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > First, i'm sorry for my english, i'm french and i don't have a good
> > level in this language. But i want some informations and i'm sure,
> > someone will be give the good anwser about my question.
> >
> > So, i'm regarding to rent a dual dark fiber in France, the estimated
> > distance is 225 Km, but i know there are a lot of optical switching on
> > the highway where it's fiber is installed (in theory, all 80 Km). So, i
> > used the bad scenario, in adding 25 Km on my need.
> >
> > I would like to buy a amplificator and multiplexer DWDM to add some
> > 10Gb/s waves on this dark fiber. I've see that the amplification is
> > better on 100 Gb/s synchronised ports, but we don't have enoug capacity
> > on our router to add 100 Gb/s interfaces.
> >
> > So, someone has installed this type of hardware on a dark fiber without
> > regeneration  on 250 Km of distance ?
> > If yes, with what kind of hardware ? If you are commercial for this
> > hardware, please contact me in private message.
>
>
> Look up Raman amplification.  The short of what this does is it pumps a
> ton of power into the near end of the fiber span and creates what looks
> somewhat like a typical color-blind amplifier somewhere several dozen km
> out on the span.  You'll also need to dump a ton of power into the span
> at the far end using an EDFA or similar.  Even with both of those, that
> distance is still going to push the raw optical power budget of even
> most state-of-the-art transceivers especially if the fiber is old or of
> low quality (high loss, high dispersion, etc.).
>
> The longest span I've ever gotten a vendor to commit to an engineered
> design for was about 140km, and of course they needed full
> characterization of the span before they'd do it.  At those distances,
> distance alone is no longer sufficient to throw together a design.
>
> It seems highly likely that there's at least one re-gen facility along
> that span.  I'd definitely see if there is one and if you can get some
> space in it.  That will knock you down into the 100-130km range on both
> sides of the re-gen, hopefully, which is perfectly doable.
>
> You are somewhat correct that 100Gb interfaces often handle longer
> distances better, but it's because they are often using coherent
> receivers and carrier-synchronous transmitters rather than raw power
> receivers and ASK pulsed transmitters.  There are vendors that sell
> coherent 10Gb transceivers, too, and they'll be cheaper than 100Gb
> solutions especially if you don't need the extra capacity anyway.  I'd
> definitely check them out for this type of application especially if you
> can't get any dispersion compensation in the middle since coherent
> optics are usually much more tolerant of chromatic dispersion.
>
> The big vendor I've worked with in the past on this sort of stuff is
> Ciena (and they're certainly a juggernaut in the industry) though I have
> no connection to them other than as a satisfied (if occasionally broke
> after a PO or out of breath after seeing a quotation) customer/integrator.
>
> --
> Brandon Martin
>

Re: DWDM on 250 Km dark fiber without re-amplification

[Brian R]

I have to agree with Brandon.  I have not worked with Ciena equipment directly 
but have work with carriers that use it.  I worked with Adtran on this kind of 
setup and like Brandon said they require a lot of information to build what is 
needed for each specific run (fiber type, quality, wave length optimization, 
number of splices, etc).  I've seen the tools Adtran uses to calculate exactly 
what equipment is required and it is pretty complex for distances even close to 
what you are talking about.

Definitely check for a re-gen site(s), most likely the carrier has to re-gen 
their own runs down this fiber path (another thing to consider in the 
calculation matrix especially if you are not trying to re-gen your run).


I have to give Baldur kudos for finding that I'm still amazed that Fiberstore 
is claiming that's possible without a lot of information.  I have worked with 
Fiberstore and they are a cooperative vendor and their products work for what 
we have used them for.


My suggestion is to reach out to Fiberstore, Ciena, Adtran, and other vendors 
that people recommend with a detailed email of what you would like to 
accomplish and the information you can get.  Ask for a design engineer (I know 
Adtran has them and assume others do) to get the info you need and see what 
they can mock up for you.


Brian



From: NANOG <nanog-boun...@nanog.org> on behalf of Brandon Martin 
<lists.na...@monmotha.net>
Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2016 12:41 AM
To: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: DWDM on 250 Km dark fiber without re-amplification

On 12/23/2016 07:14 PM, Jeremy wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> First, i'm sorry for my english, i'm french and i don't have a good
> level in this language. But i want some informations and i'm sure,
> someone will be give the good anwser about my question.
>
> So, i'm regarding to rent a dual dark fiber in France, the estimated
> distance is 225 Km, but i know there are a lot of optical switching on
> the highway where it's fiber is installed (in theory, all 80 Km). So, i
> used the bad scenario, in adding 25 Km on my need.
>
> I would like to buy a amplificator and multiplexer DWDM to add some
> 10Gb/s waves on this dark fiber. I've see that the amplification is
> better on 100 Gb/s synchronised ports, but we don't have enoug capacity
> on our router to add 100 Gb/s interfaces.
>
> So, someone has installed this type of hardware on a dark fiber without
> regeneration  on 250 Km of distance ?
> If yes, with what kind of hardware ? If you are commercial for this
> hardware, please contact me in private message.


Look up Raman amplification.  The short of what this does is it pumps a
ton of power into the near end of the fiber span and creates what looks
somewhat like a typical color-blind amplifier somewhere several dozen km
out on the span.  You'll also need to dump a ton of power into the span
at the far end using an EDFA or similar.  Even with both of those, that
distance is still going to push the raw optical power budget of even
most state-of-the-art transceivers especially if the fiber is old or of
low quality (high loss, high dispersion, etc.).

The longest span I've ever gotten a vendor to commit to an engineered
design for was about 140km, and of course they needed full
characterization of the span before they'd do it.  At those distances,
distance alone is no longer sufficient to throw together a design.

It seems highly likely that there's at least one re-gen facility along
that span.  I'd definitely see if there is one and if you can get some
space in it.  That will knock you down into the 100-130km range on both
sides of the re-gen, hopefully, which is perfectly doable.

You are somewhat correct that 100Gb interfaces often handle longer
distances better, but it's because they are often using coherent
receivers and carrier-synchronous transmitters rather than raw power
receivers and ASK pulsed transmitters.  There are vendors that sell
coherent 10Gb transceivers, too, and they'll be cheaper than 100Gb
solutions especially if you don't need the extra capacity anyway.  I'd
definitely check them out for this type of application especially if you
can't get any dispersion compensation in the middle since coherent
optics are usually much more tolerant of chromatic dispersion.

The big vendor I've worked with in the past on this sort of stuff is
Ciena (and they're certainly a juggernaut in the industry) though I have
no connection to them other than as a satisfied (if occasionally broke
after a PO or out of breath after seeing a quotation) customer/integrator.

--
Brandon Martin

Re: DWDM on 250 Km dark fiber without re-amplification

[Brandon Martin]

On 12/23/2016 07:14 PM, Jeremy wrote:

Hi all,

First, i'm sorry for my english, i'm french and i don't have a good
level in this language. But i want some informations and i'm sure,
someone will be give the good anwser about my question.

So, i'm regarding to rent a dual dark fiber in France, the estimated
distance is 225 Km, but i know there are a lot of optical switching on
the highway where it's fiber is installed (in theory, all 80 Km). So, i
used the bad scenario, in adding 25 Km on my need.

I would like to buy a amplificator and multiplexer DWDM to add some
10Gb/s waves on this dark fiber. I've see that the amplification is
better on 100 Gb/s synchronised ports, but we don't have enoug capacity
on our router to add 100 Gb/s interfaces.

So, someone has installed this type of hardware on a dark fiber without
regeneration  on 250 Km of distance ?
If yes, with what kind of hardware ? If you are commercial for this
hardware, please contact me in private message.



Look up Raman amplification.  The short of what this does is it pumps a 
ton of power into the near end of the fiber span and creates what looks 
somewhat like a typical color-blind amplifier somewhere several dozen km 
out on the span.  You'll also need to dump a ton of power into the span 
at the far end using an EDFA or similar.  Even with both of those, that 
distance is still going to push the raw optical power budget of even 
most state-of-the-art transceivers especially if the fiber is old or of 
low quality (high loss, high dispersion, etc.).


The longest span I've ever gotten a vendor to commit to an engineered 
design for was about 140km, and of course they needed full 
characterization of the span before they'd do it.  At those distances, 
distance alone is no longer sufficient to throw together a design.


It seems highly likely that there's at least one re-gen facility along 
that span.  I'd definitely see if there is one and if you can get some 
space in it.  That will knock you down into the 100-130km range on both 
sides of the re-gen, hopefully, which is perfectly doable.


You are somewhat correct that 100Gb interfaces often handle longer 
distances better, but it's because they are often using coherent 
receivers and carrier-synchronous transmitters rather than raw power 
receivers and ASK pulsed transmitters.  There are vendors that sell 
coherent 10Gb transceivers, too, and they'll be cheaper than 100Gb 
solutions especially if you don't need the extra capacity anyway.  I'd 
definitely check them out for this type of application especially if you 
can't get any dispersion compensation in the middle since coherent 
optics are usually much more tolerant of chromatic dispersion.


The big vendor I've worked with in the past on this sort of stuff is 
Ciena (and they're certainly a juggernaut in the industry) though I have 
no connection to them other than as a satisfied (if occasionally broke 
after a PO or out of breath after seeing a quotation) customer/integrator.


--
Brandon Martin

Re: DWDM on 250 Km dark fiber without re-amplification

[Faisal Imtiaz]

I agree with what Baldur suggested..

Only thing I would point out that .. 
Hardly anyone installs 200km fiber runs without having some sort of a Regen 
facility.

While you can push the signal over the 200km link, in the long run you may be 
better off see if there a Regen facility (typically 70/80km) that you can use 
to re-generate the light.

Best of luck.

Faisal Imtiaz
Snappy Internet & Telecom


- Original Message -
> From: "Baldur Norddahl" <baldur.nordd...@gmail.com>
> To: "nanog list" <nanog@nanog.org>
> Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2016 2:30:40 PM
> Subject: Re: DWDM on 250 Km dark fiber without re-amplification

> Hello
> 
> I have not done this as our links are not that long. However in theory
> this is how I would do it. There are nice integrated solutions that will
> do it as a black box, but someone else will have to tell you about that.
> I am using Fiberstore as a reference because they have the necessary
> components with pricing directly online, but there is of course multiple
> alternatives.
> 
> So first off forget about 40G and 100G. This will be N x 10G and N can
> be as large as 96 channels. 100G would be the same equipment (possibly
> without dispersion compensation) but with each 100G stream as four 25G
> wavelengths. However the optics are very expensive and hard to get for
> 40G and 100G while 10G is relatively cheap and easy.
> 
> You need the following components:
> 
> http://www.fs.com/support/dwdm-edfa-amplifier-for-long-haul-applications-100
> 
> They list all you need with a nice drawing. Get the components from them
> or someone else. The nice integrated solutions are just these components
> in a box.
> 
> They only list the solution as 200 km. You will have to send them a mail
> and ask if they can do 225 km.
> 
> Also you need to check that the black fiber provider allows amplified
> signals at this level. Not everyone do. Normally the signals are not
> that dangerous, but with this a unaware tech can go blind if he is
> unlucky. It is not clear if the Fiberstore equipment automatically turns
> of the laser in the case of a fiber cut and that might also be a
> requirement.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Baldur
> 
> 
> 
> Den 24/12/2016 kl. 01.14 skrev Jeremy:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> First, i'm sorry for my english, i'm french and i don't have a good
>> level in this language. But i want some informations and i'm sure,
>> someone will be give the good anwser about my question.
>>
>> So, i'm regarding to rent a dual dark fiber in France, the estimated
>> distance is 225 Km, but i know there are a lot of optical switching on
>> the highway where it's fiber is installed (in theory, all 80 Km). So,
>> i used the bad scenario, in adding 25 Km on my need.
>>
>> I would like to buy a amplificator and multiplexer DWDM to add some
>> 10Gb/s waves on this dark fiber. I've see that the amplification is
>> better on 100 Gb/s synchronised ports, but we don't have enoug
>> capacity on our router to add 100 Gb/s interfaces.
>>
>> So, someone has installed this type of hardware on a dark fiber
>> without regeneration  on 250 Km of distance ?
>> If yes, with what kind of hardware ? If you are commercial for this
>> hardware, please contact me in private message.
>>
>> Thanks you for your time,
>> Jérémy
>> AS197922

Re: DWDM on 250 Km dark fiber without re-amplification

[Baldur Norddahl]

Hello

I have not done this as our links are not that long. However in theory 
this is how I would do it. There are nice integrated solutions that will 
do it as a black box, but someone else will have to tell you about that. 
I am using Fiberstore as a reference because they have the necessary 
components with pricing directly online, but there is of course multiple 
alternatives.


So first off forget about 40G and 100G. This will be N x 10G and N can 
be as large as 96 channels. 100G would be the same equipment (possibly 
without dispersion compensation) but with each 100G stream as four 25G 
wavelengths. However the optics are very expensive and hard to get for 
40G and 100G while 10G is relatively cheap and easy.


You need the following components:

http://www.fs.com/support/dwdm-edfa-amplifier-for-long-haul-applications-100

They list all you need with a nice drawing. Get the components from them 
or someone else. The nice integrated solutions are just these components 
in a box.


They only list the solution as 200 km. You will have to send them a mail 
and ask if they can do 225 km.


Also you need to check that the black fiber provider allows amplified 
signals at this level. Not everyone do. Normally the signals are not 
that dangerous, but with this a unaware tech can go blind if he is 
unlucky. It is not clear if the Fiberstore equipment automatically turns 
of the laser in the case of a fiber cut and that might also be a 
requirement.


Regards,

Baldur



Den 24/12/2016 kl. 01.14 skrev Jeremy:

Hi all,

First, i'm sorry for my english, i'm french and i don't have a good 
level in this language. But i want some informations and i'm sure, 
someone will be give the good anwser about my question.


So, i'm regarding to rent a dual dark fiber in France, the estimated 
distance is 225 Km, but i know there are a lot of optical switching on 
the highway where it's fiber is installed (in theory, all 80 Km). So, 
i used the bad scenario, in adding 25 Km on my need.


I would like to buy a amplificator and multiplexer DWDM to add some 
10Gb/s waves on this dark fiber. I've see that the amplification is 
better on 100 Gb/s synchronised ports, but we don't have enoug 
capacity on our router to add 100 Gb/s interfaces.


So, someone has installed this type of hardware on a dark fiber 
without regeneration  on 250 Km of distance ?
If yes, with what kind of hardware ? If you are commercial for this 
hardware, please contact me in private message.


Thanks you for your time,
Jérémy
AS197922