Re: Frontier Dark Fiber

[Mike]

Yes; There was absolutely some outright fraud here. Fraud, that even 
when pointed out exactly to the FCC staffers handling this, was simply 
ignored. This fraud claims in the rural parts of mendocino county, where 
I have operated for 20 years, claims there is 'competitive fiber' within 
500' of some of the CO's I would _die_ to have fiber access in, and 
which has never ever been possible. The fscking game playing here is 
unbelievable. ATT, how far you have fallen...and taking down America 
with you.







On 7/22/22 14:23, Mike Hammett wrote:
Here's the list of CLLI codes where you're no longer able to order 
dark fiber:



https://www.fcc.gov/clli-code-list


It seems odd as I look through there, finding COs with no competitive 
fiber and yet, they're on the list.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

Midwest-IX
http://www.midwest-ix.com


*From: *"Paul Timmins" 
*To: *nanog@nanog.org
*Sent: *Thursday, July 14, 2022 1:45:37 PM
*Subject: *Re: Frontier Dark Fiber

Your rights under the ICA are dead. Since 2002 you were only able to 
order it if one end was in a tier 3 wirecenter, and it was killed in 
2021 as an orderable product.



https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2021/01/08/2020-25254/modernizing-unbundling-and-resale-requirements-in-an-era-of-next-generation-networks-and-services


There's an 8 year transition for existing unbundled dark fiber 
(February 28, 2029). Dark fiber loops were dead in 2002 under the TRRO.





On 7/13/22 07:45, Mike Hammett wrote:

Oh, and I forgot to mention that my ICA has it.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>

<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>

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The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>

<https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp><https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>

*From: *"Mike Hammett" 
*To: *nanog@nanog.org
*Sent: *Wednesday, July 13, 2022 6:40:47 AM
*Subject: *Frontier Dark Fiber

I'm looking for a contact at Frontier that can discuss dark fiber.

My current account exec says they don't offer it, yet prior
conversations with him and a previous SE revealed that they very
much did (just didn't have availability on the paths I wanted at
the time).

Their web site highlights it fairly proudly.


I'm aware that availability varies.

I'm aware that they likely don't want to sell it.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>

<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>

<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>

<https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp><https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>

Re: Frontier Dark Fiber

[Jay R. Ashworth]

"I wouldn't have thought that Frontier was able to offer dark fiber loops to
end user customers at any kind of reasonable product-scale".

Sorry; didn't know I had to show my work here.  :-)

Cheers,
-- jra

- Original Message -
> From: "Eric Kuhnke" 
> To: "nanog@nanog.org list" 
> Sent: Wednesday, August 3, 2022 2:24:45 PM
> Subject: Re: Frontier Dark Fiber

> Any regional ILEC spanning at least a few counties in size will have some
> amount of inter-CO dark fiber, whether they want to sell it to any 3rd
> parties is entirely another question.
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, 3 Aug 2022 at 08:17, Jay Ashworth  wrote:
> 
>> I wouldn't have thought that Frontier was able to offer dark fiber, since
>> air distribution fan out is all GPON, is it not?
>>
>> If their fanout was active ethernet it might be a different story but...
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -- jra
>>
>> On July 13, 2022 7:40:47 AM EDT, Mike Hammett  wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm looking for a contact at Frontier that can discuss dark fiber.
>>>
>>> My current account exec says they don't offer it, yet prior conversations
>>> with him and a previous SE revealed that they very much did (just didn't
>>> have availability on the paths I wanted at the time).
>>>
>>> Their web site highlights it fairly proudly.
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm aware that availability varies.
>>>
>>> I'm aware that they likely don't want to sell it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -
>>> Mike Hammett
>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>
>>> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>
>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>
>>> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
>>> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
>>> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>
>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>
>>> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
>>> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
>>> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
>>> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
>>>
>> --
>> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

-- 
Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink   j...@baylink.com
Designer The Things I Think   RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates   http://www.bcp38.info  2000 Land Rover DII
St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727 647 1274

Re: Frontier Dark Fiber

[Eric Kuhnke]

Any regional ILEC spanning at least a few counties in size will have some
amount of inter-CO dark fiber, whether they want to sell it to any 3rd
parties is entirely another question.



On Wed, 3 Aug 2022 at 08:17, Jay Ashworth  wrote:

> I wouldn't have thought that Frontier was able to offer dark fiber, since
> air distribution fan out is all GPON, is it not?
>
> If their fanout was active ethernet it might be a different story but...
>
> Cheers,
> -- jra
>
> On July 13, 2022 7:40:47 AM EDT, Mike Hammett  wrote:
>>
>> I'm looking for a contact at Frontier that can discuss dark fiber.
>>
>> My current account exec says they don't offer it, yet prior conversations
>> with him and a previous SE revealed that they very much did (just didn't
>> have availability on the paths I wanted at the time).
>>
>> Their web site highlights it fairly proudly.
>>
>>
>> I'm aware that availability varies.
>>
>> I'm aware that they likely don't want to sell it.
>>
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Midwest Internet Exchange 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> The Brothers WISP 
>> 
>> 
>>
> --
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>

Re: Frontier Dark Fiber

[Jay R. Ashworth]

- Original Message -
> From: "Brandon Martin" 

> On 8/3/22 11:16, Jay Ashworth wrote:
>> I wouldn't have thought that Frontier was able to offer dark fiber,
>> since air distribution fan out is all GPON, is it not?
>> 
>> If their fanout was active ethernet it might be a different story but...
> 
> They have access to/control of a large amount of mid-mile and long-haul
> fiber built by/as GTE and Verizon.  Additionally, while their resi/soho
> distribution is all PON, they do have some excess fiber fairly deep into
> their network in most markets and actively offer active-E service on it
> for the right price (it can even occasionally be competitive).  I
> imagine they'd sell dark for the right price as well, though you may not
> like that "right" price.

Yeah, FU pricing ain't uncommon.

Thanks for the clarification.

Cheers,
-- jra
-- 
Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink   j...@baylink.com
Designer The Things I Think   RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates   http://www.bcp38.info  2000 Land Rover DII
St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727 647 1274

Re: Frontier Dark Fiber

[Brandon Martin]

On 8/3/22 11:16, Jay Ashworth wrote:
I wouldn't have thought that Frontier was able to offer dark fiber, 
since air distribution fan out is all GPON, is it not?


If their fanout was active ethernet it might be a different story but...


They have access to/control of a large amount of mid-mile and long-haul 
fiber built by/as GTE and Verizon.  Additionally, while their resi/soho 
distribution is all PON, they do have some excess fiber fairly deep into 
their network in most markets and actively offer active-E service on it 
for the right price (it can even occasionally be competitive).  I 
imagine they'd sell dark for the right price as well, though you may not 
like that "right" price.

--
Brandon Martin
Mothic Technologies
317-565-1357 x7000

Re: Frontier Dark Fiber

[Jay Ashworth]

I wouldn't have thought that Frontier was able to offer dark fiber, since air 
distribution fan out is all GPON, is it not?

If their fanout was active ethernet it might be a different story but...

Cheers,
-- jra

On July 13, 2022 7:40:47 AM EDT, Mike Hammett  wrote:
>I'm looking for a contact at Frontier that can discuss dark fiber. 
>
>
>My current account exec says they don't offer it, yet prior conversations with 
>him and a previous SE revealed that they very much did (just didn't have 
>availability on the paths I wanted at the time). 
>
>
>Their web site highlights it fairly proudly. 
>
>
>
>
>I'm aware that availability varies. 
>
>
>I'm aware that they likely don't want to sell it. 
>
>
>
>- 
>Mike Hammett 
>Intelligent Computing Solutions 
>
>Midwest Internet Exchange 
>
>The Brothers WISP 
>

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

RE: Frontier Dark Fiber

[John van Oppen]

When working with ILECs it is important to differentiate what must be offered 
via ICAs and what is offered commercially.  We for example sell a ton 
commercially but effectively none through our interconnection agreements 
anymore.

(we being Ziply Fiber in WA/OR/ID/MT)


From: NANOG  On Behalf Of Mike 
Hammett
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2022 2:24 PM
To: Paul Timmins 
Cc: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: Frontier Dark Fiber

Here's the list of CLLI codes where you're no longer able to order dark fiber:


https://www.fcc.gov/clli-code-list


It seems odd as I look through there, finding COs with no competitive fiber and 
yet, they're on the list.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

Midwest-IX
http://www.midwest-ix.com


From: "Paul Timmins" 
To: nanog@nanog.org
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2022 1:45:37 PM
Subject: Re: Frontier Dark Fiber

Your rights under the ICA are dead. Since 2002 you were only able to order it 
if one end was in a tier 3 wirecenter, and it was killed in 2021 as an 
orderable product.



https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2021/01/08/2020-25254/modernizing-unbundling-and-resale-requirements-in-an-era-of-next-generation-networks-and-services



There's an 8 year transition for existing unbundled dark fiber (February 28, 
2029). Dark fiber loops were dead in 2002 under the TRRO.






On 7/13/22 07:45, Mike Hammett wrote:
Oh, and I forgot to mention that my ICA has it.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions<http://www.ics-il.com/>
[Image removed by sender.]<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>[Image removed by 
sender.]<https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>[Image 
removed by 
sender.]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>[Image
 removed by sender.]<https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
Midwest Internet Exchange<http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
[Image removed by sender.]<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>[Image removed by 
sender.]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>[Image 
removed by sender.]<https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
The Brothers WISP<http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
[Image removed by sender.]<https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>[Image 
removed by sender.]<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>

From: "Mike Hammett" <mailto:na...@ics-il.net>
To: nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org>
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2022 6:40:47 AM
Subject: Frontier Dark Fiber
I'm looking for a contact at Frontier that can discuss dark fiber.

My current account exec says they don't offer it, yet prior conversations with 
him and a previous SE revealed that they very much did (just didn't have 
availability on the paths I wanted at the time).

Their web site highlights it fairly proudly.


I'm aware that availability varies.

I'm aware that they likely don't want to sell it.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions<http://www.ics-il.com/>
[Image removed by sender.]<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>[Image removed by 
sender.]<https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>[Image 
removed by 
sender.]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>[Image
 removed by sender.]<https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
Midwest Internet Exchange<http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
[Image removed by sender.]<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>[Image removed by 
sender.]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>[Image 
removed by sender.]<https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
The Brothers WISP<http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
[Image removed by sender.]<https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>[Image 
removed by sender.]<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>

Re: Frontier Dark Fiber

[Mike Hammett]

Here's the list of CLLI codes where you're no longer able to order dark fiber: 




https://www.fcc.gov/clli-code-list 




It seems odd as I look through there, finding COs with no competitive fiber and 
yet, they're on the list. 





- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

Midwest-IX 
http://www.midwest-ix.com 

- Original Message -

From: "Paul Timmins"  
To: nanog@nanog.org 
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2022 1:45:37 PM 
Subject: Re: Frontier Dark Fiber 


Your rights under the ICA are dead. Since 2002 you were only able to order it 
if one end was in a tier 3 wirecenter, and it was killed in 2021 as an 
orderable product. 



https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2021/01/08/2020-25254/modernizing-unbundling-and-resale-requirements-in-an-era-of-next-generation-networks-and-services
 


There's an 8 year transition for existing unbundled dark fiber (February 28, 
2029). Dark fiber loops were dead in 2002 under the TRRO. 







On 7/13/22 07:45, Mike Hammett wrote: 



Oh, and I forgot to mention that my ICA has it. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

- Original Message -

From: "Mike Hammett"  
To: nanog@nanog.org 
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2022 6:40:47 AM 
Subject: Frontier Dark Fiber 


I'm looking for a contact at Frontier that can discuss dark fiber. 


My current account exec says they don't offer it, yet prior conversations with 
him and a previous SE revealed that they very much did (just didn't have 
availability on the paths I wanted at the time). 


Their web site highlights it fairly proudly. 




I'm aware that availability varies. 


I'm aware that they likely don't want to sell it. 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

Re: Frontier Dark Fiber

[Eric Kuhnke]

Unless you are a *significant* sized regional operator in an area that
overlaps with Frontier's ILEC territory is it unlikely in the extreme that
they would want to rent you some dark fiber or issue a quote for it.

Or some kind of very large enterprise customer that Frontier will take
seriously like a Fortune 500 sized manufacturing entity.





On Wed, 13 Jul 2022 at 04:41, Mike Hammett  wrote:

> I'm looking for a contact at Frontier that can discuss dark fiber.
>
> My current account exec says they don't offer it, yet prior conversations
> with him and a previous SE revealed that they very much did (just didn't
> have availability on the paths I wanted at the time).
>
> Their web site highlights it fairly proudly.
>
>
> I'm aware that availability varies.
>
> I'm aware that they likely don't want to sell it.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
> 
>

Re: Frontier Dark Fiber

[Mike Hammett]

The ICA was signed in 2003 or 2004 with dark fiber in it. 


Ahh, but maybe 2021 killed it. 




Well, most of the ones I'm looking at would be interoffice, not so much loops. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

- Original Message -

From: "Paul Timmins"  
To: nanog@nanog.org 
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2022 1:45:37 PM 
Subject: Re: Frontier Dark Fiber 


Your rights under the ICA are dead. Since 2002 you were only able to order it 
if one end was in a tier 3 wirecenter, and it was killed in 2021 as an 
orderable product. 



https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2021/01/08/2020-25254/modernizing-unbundling-and-resale-requirements-in-an-era-of-next-generation-networks-and-services
 


There's an 8 year transition for existing unbundled dark fiber (February 28, 
2029). Dark fiber loops were dead in 2002 under the TRRO. 







On 7/13/22 07:45, Mike Hammett wrote: 



Oh, and I forgot to mention that my ICA has it. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

- Original Message -

From: "Mike Hammett"  
To: nanog@nanog.org 
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2022 6:40:47 AM 
Subject: Frontier Dark Fiber 


I'm looking for a contact at Frontier that can discuss dark fiber. 


My current account exec says they don't offer it, yet prior conversations with 
him and a previous SE revealed that they very much did (just didn't have 
availability on the paths I wanted at the time). 


Their web site highlights it fairly proudly. 




I'm aware that availability varies. 


I'm aware that they likely don't want to sell it. 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

Re: Frontier Dark Fiber

[Paul Timmins]

Your rights under the ICA are dead. Since 2002 you were only able to 
order it if one end was in a tier 3 wirecenter, and it was killed in 
2021 as an orderable product.



https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2021/01/08/2020-25254/modernizing-unbundling-and-resale-requirements-in-an-era-of-next-generation-networks-and-services


There's an 8 year transition for existing unbundled dark fiber (February 
28, 2029). Dark fiber loops were dead in 2002 under the TRRO.





On 7/13/22 07:45, Mike Hammett wrote:

Oh, and I forgot to mention that my ICA has it.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 


*From: *"Mike Hammett" 
*To: *nanog@nanog.org
*Sent: *Wednesday, July 13, 2022 6:40:47 AM
*Subject: *Frontier Dark Fiber

I'm looking for a contact at Frontier that can discuss dark fiber.

My current account exec says they don't offer it, yet prior 
conversations with him and a previous SE revealed that they very much 
did (just didn't have availability on the paths I wanted at the time).


Their web site highlights it fairly proudly.


I'm aware that availability varies.

I'm aware that they likely don't want to sell it.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

Re: Frontier Dark Fiber

[Mike Hammett]

Oh, and I forgot to mention that my ICA has it. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

- Original Message -

From: "Mike Hammett"  
To: nanog@nanog.org 
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2022 6:40:47 AM 
Subject: Frontier Dark Fiber 


I'm looking for a contact at Frontier that can discuss dark fiber. 


My current account exec says they don't offer it, yet prior conversations with 
him and a previous SE revealed that they very much did (just didn't have 
availability on the paths I wanted at the time). 


Their web site highlights it fairly proudly. 




I'm aware that availability varies. 


I'm aware that they likely don't want to sell it. 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP