Re: How long will it take to completely get rid of IPv4 or will it happen at all?
It is true - you I have had to throttle back for years for optimum transport on many carriers. In fact, if you have an ATT transit in your mix of BGP you wont get a ping response at 1500 MTU from that ATT router. On Sun, 28 Jun 2015 08:02:52 -0700, Owen DeLong said: On Jun 27, 2015, at 11:48 , manning bmann...@karoshi.com wrote: Quite a few folks actually. (the 802.5 802.4 specs) . This is kind of like asking when we will stop using ethernet framing (ethernet was designed for a 3Mbps transmission rate) yet we are deploying 100Gbps networks. Still stuck on that 1500byte limitation. When can we get rid of that? Many networks have Its called Jumbo Frames Unfortunately, enough people do things to break PMTU Discovery that it's not usually feasible to send jumbograms outside your directly controlled networks. So you may actually have jumbogram support all the way one end to the other, but you can't rely on it and have to throttle back to 1500 (or even smaller) in self-defense
Re: How long will it take to completely get rid of IPv4 or will it happen at all?
Hi, I just ran a tcpdump looking for NTP packets going to 128.173.14.71. In 90 minutes, I got hits from 330 unique IP addresses, including some that were chatty enough to indicate there were dozens of hosts behind a NAT. ah yes. the joy of the usual 2 scenarios 1) your IP got used in some random equipment config/firmware 2) your IP got used in some documentation rather than using one the official IPv4 documentation address space the last scenario is the IP address was used in some long ago post or blog that google helps unearth whenever anyone asks for NTP. we had the same for DNS.learnt that lesson :/ without bothering to sanity check if a clock is still usable THAT is the scary part.they're not even checking its working (at least their kit wont crash and burn at the leap second if it hasnt got working NTP ;-) !) alan
Re: How long will it take to completely get rid of IPv4 or will it happen at all?
actually, 1500 byte frames require a very different buffering technique, since you have so many in flight at a given time. if your old enough, this equates to the 53byte ATM cells when the data rates were in the Megabit range. manning bmann...@karoshi.com PO Box 12317 Marina del Rey, CA 90295 310.322.8102 On 27June2015Saturday, at 15:58, Stephen Satchell l...@satchell.net wrote: On 06/27/2015 11:48 AM, manning wrote: This is kind of like asking when we will stop using ethernet framing (ethernet was designed for a 3Mbps transmission rate) yet we are deploying 100Gbps networks. Still stuck on that 1500byte limitation. When can we get rid of that? Speed has nothing to do with frame size. The 1500 byte limitation is more a function of the CRC algorithm. (Oh, the initial frame size was selected for 3-mbit Ethernet so that collision mitigation was reasonable.) Think about jumbo frames (9000 bytes) and their robust error detection. Research is being done in even larger frames, because the rule is that as your transmission rate increases, you should increase the frame size and use a FRC algorithm that detects all one-bit errors and most two-bit errors, at least.
Re: How long will it take to completely get rid of IPv4 or will it happen at all?
On Sat, 27 Jun 2015 13:58:24 -0400, Alexander Maassen outsi...@scarynet.org wrote: Before that will happen. Isp's will first try cgnat and the alikes. They already are. And, depending on the network, have for eons. Have you checked the IP used by your cellphone? (the last few times I bothered to look... somewhere in 29/8. I thought that was really funny.) Why? Simple: Money. It's cheaper to install a $100k NAT appliance (or several) than it is to replace 16mil CPE devices, plus all the engineering, testing, and customer support training (read: BS scripts to follow.) AND, your customers aren't having any trouble getting where they need to go. Sure, there will be the forward thinkers pushing for IPv6, but not because there's some IPv6 only place they need to go (or be.)
Re: How long will it take to completely get rid of IPv4 or will it happen at all?
On Jun 27, 2015, at 11:48 , manning bmann...@karoshi.com wrote: Quite a few folks actually. (the 802.5 802.4 specs)…. This is kind of like asking when we will stop using ethernet framing (ethernet was designed for a 3Mbps transmission rate) yet we are deploying 100Gbps networks. Still stuck on that 1500byte limitation. When can we get rid of that? Many networks have… It’s called “Jumbo Frames” Owen manning bmann...@karoshi.com PO Box 12317 Marina del Rey, CA 90295 310.322.8102 On 27June2015Saturday, at 9:49, Bacon Zombie baconzom...@gmail.com wrote: Is anybody still using IPX or TokenRing? I've heard that TokenRing is over 9000 times better for iSCSI since you are guaranteed that the packets will not get collisions. On 27 Jun 2015 18:39, Fredy Kuenzler kuenz...@init7.net wrote: Am 27.06.2015 um 16:38 schrieb Bob Evans: We have a greater supply for packets to travel than we do for addresses required to move packets. Do you know how many packets a single IP address can generate or utilize, if it was attached too The World's Fastest Internet in someplace like Canadaland or Sweden on init7's Fiber7 ? Thanks for mentioning Fiber7, which is actually available in Switzerland, not Sweden. And every Fiber7 customer gets a /48, too. -- Fredy Kuenzler - Fiber7. No Limits. https://www.fiber7.ch - Init7 (Switzerland) Ltd. AS13030 St.-Georgen-Strasse 70 CH-8400 Winterthur Skype: flyingpotato Phone: +41 44 315 4400 Fax: +41 44 315 4401 Twitter: @init7 / @kuenzler http://www.init7.net/
Re: How long will it take to completely get rid of IPv4 or will it happen at all?
On Sun, 28 Jun 2015 08:02:52 -0700, Owen DeLong said: On Jun 27, 2015, at 11:48 , manning bmann...@karoshi.com wrote: Quite a few folks actually. (the 802.5 802.4 specs) . This is kind of like asking when we will stop using ethernet framing (ethernet was designed for a 3Mbps transmission rate) yet we are deploying 100Gbps networks. Still stuck on that 1500byte limitation. When can we get rid of that? Many networks have Its called Jumbo Frames Unfortunately, enough people do things to break PMTU Discovery that it's not usually feasible to send jumbograms outside your directly controlled networks. So you may actually have jumbogram support all the way one end to the other, but you can't rely on it and have to throttle back to 1500 (or even smaller) in self-defense pgp_bOFwZYLp7.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: How long will it take to completely get rid of IPv4 or will it happen at all?
Before that will happen. Isp's will first try cgnat and the alikes. They rather spend money on hardware supporting that then make the networks dualstack. Why? you may ask. Simple. Most customer service centers have ppl with less then basic skills. Explaining how ipv4 even looks like took them long enough. Abuse ticket systems and logparsers are probably also v4 based. And the one who wrote them, probably got fired and replaced by a younger/cheaper guy who just got out of school with no real field experience. When will the change happen then you might ask. Very simple. If the largest destinations like fb/twitter and others start to drop v4. So what we really would need is not an ipv6 day, but, you might have guessed it, an ipv6 ONLY day. On such a day, a hell of a lot isps will have their support queue overfilled with people asking why they cannot visit their favourite sites. And all the isp can say is: our network infrastructure is too old. Oorspronkelijk bericht Van: Bob Evans b...@fiberinternetcenter.com Datum: Aan: Rafael Possamai raf...@gav.ufsc.br Cc: North American Network Operators' Group nanog@nanog.org Onderwerp: How long will it take to completely get rid of IPv4 or will it happen at all? Our fundamental issue is that an IPv4 address has no real value as networks still give them away, it's pennies in your pocket. Everything of use needs to have a cost to motivate for change. Establishing that now won't create change it will first create greater conservation. There will be a cost that will be reached before change takes place on a scale that matters. Networks set the false perception and customer expectation that address space is free and readily available. Networks with plenty, still land many customers today by handing over a class C to customer with less than 10 servers and 5 people in an office. We have a greater supply for packets to travel than we do for addresses required to move packets. Do you know how many packets a single IP address can generate or utilize, if it was attached too The World's Fastest Internet in someplace like Canadaland or Sweden on init7's Fiber7 ? No matter how large the pipe the answer is always, all of it. It's address space we should now place a price upon. Unlike, My Space's disappearance when Facebook arrived there is no quick jump to IPv6. There is no coordinated effort required that involves millions of people to change browser window content. But to answer your question... Everything that is handed over for free is perceived as having no value. Therefore, IPv4 has to cost much more than the cost to change to IPv6 today. While the IPv6 addresses are free, it is expensive to change. Businesses spend lots of money on a free lunches. It's going to take at least the price of one good lunch per IP address per month to create the consideration for change. That's about $30 for 2 people in California. Offering a /48 of free IPv6 space to everyone on the planet didn't make it happen. There is no financial incentive to move to IPv6. In fact there is more reason not to change than to change. The new gear cost $$$ (lots of it didn't work well and required exploration to learn that), IT people need hours to implement (schedules are full of day-to-day issues), networks keep growing with offerings that drop Internet costs and save everyone money, business as usual is productive on IPv4 (business doesn't have time for distraction), many of us get distracted by something more immediate and interesting than buying a new wi-fi router for the home. What will come first ? A) the earths future core rotation changes altering the ionosphere in such a way that we are all exposed to continuous x-rays that shorten our lifespan OR B) the last IPv4 computer running will be reconfigured to IPv6 Thank You Bob Evans CTO Randy, How long do you think it will take to completely get rid of IPv4? Or is it even going to happen at all? On Sat, Jun 27, 2015 at 4:57 AM, Randy Bush ra...@psg.com wrote: the rirs have run out of their free source of short ints to rent to us. i am sure everyone will move to ipv6 in a week. news at eleven. randy
RE: How long will it take to completely get rid of IPv4 or will it happen at all?
Bob Evans wrote: Our fundamental issue is that an IPv4 address has no real value as networks still give them away, it's pennies in your pocket. Everything of use needs to have a cost to motivate for change. Establishing that now won't create change it will first create greater conservation. There will be a cost that will be reached before change takes place on a scale that matters. Networks set the false perception and customer expectation that address space is free and readily available. Networks with plenty, still land many customers today by handing over a class C to customer with less than 10 servers and 5 people in an office. We have a greater supply for packets to travel than we do for addresses required to move packets. Do you know how many packets a single IP address can generate or utilize, if it was attached too The World's Fastest Internet in someplace like Canadaland or Sweden on init7's Fiber7 ? No matter how large the pipe the answer is always, all of it. It's address space we should now place a price upon. Unlike, My Space's disappearance when Facebook arrived there is no quick jump to IPv6. There is no coordinated effort required that involves millions of people to change browser window content. But to answer your question... Everything that is handed over for free is perceived as having no value. Therefore, IPv4 has to cost much more than the cost to change to IPv6 today. While the IPv6 addresses are free, it is expensive to change. Businesses spend lots of money on a free lunches. It's going to take at least the price of one good lunch per IP address per month to create the consideration for change. That's about $30 for 2 people in California. Offering a /48 of free IPv6 space to everyone on the planet didn't make it happen. There is no financial incentive to move to IPv6. In fact there is more reason not to change than to change. The new gear cost $$$ (lots of it didn't work well and required exploration to learn that), IT people need hours to implement (schedules are full of day-to-day issues), networks keep growing with offerings that drop Internet costs and save everyone money, business as usual is productive on IPv4 (business doesn't have time for distraction), many of us get distracted by something more immediate and interesting than buying a new wi-fi router for the home. What will come first ? A) the earths future core rotation changes altering the ionosphere in such a way that we are all exposed to continuous x-rays that shorten our lifespan OR B) the last IPv4 computer running will be reconfigured to IPv6 Thank You Bob Evans CTO Rewind the clock 20 years s/ipv4/sna/ s/ipv6/ipv4/ and/or rewind the clock 15 years s/ipv4/tdm/ s/ipv6/voip/ and your rant is exactly what was coming out of enterprises and carriers at those times. The only thing more constant than change in this industry is the intransigence of the luddites that believe they are the masters of the universe and will refuse to move with the tide. Sometimes (like in the case of IPv4) they can build a strong seawall that will hold the tide back for a decade, but rest assured that the tide always wins. I have looked and can't find the references, but I distinctly remember Businessweek or Fortune magazine covers in the late 90's with phrases to the effect of 'SNA Forever' or 'SNA is for real business/IPv4 is an experimental toy'. I have also been in meetings with carriers and been told No end customer will ever fill a DS-3. Those are inter-city exchange circuits, and there isn't enough data in the world to fill one, having just told them we were connecting CERN to Cal-tech. To the point of the original question, look to history for some indication. While people in the late 90's were busy trying to figure out how to translate web pages to SNA terminals, within ~ 5 years, the noise was gone. I am sure you will still find pockets of legacy SNA in use, but nobody cares. Then look at the education system. Once you retire-out the tenured dinosaurs that are still teaching classfull IPv4, followed by a generation of upstarts that never learned about those tiny 32-bit locators which could only possibly identify 1% of the connected devices they are aware of, it will die off. Until then, it will move to the backwaters where nobody cares. When you ignore the costs of maintaining an ever crumbling foundation, and just look at the cost of replacement, then you can mentally justify staying in the past. If you are honest about the TCO, and include both the wizardry created by the network masters and the difficult to quantify increased cost of all the software that has to work around that, then a cost based analysis is valid. Unfortunately there has been enough myopic focus on network-specific costs on this list that a decade has been lost that could have been used to update software and reduce the future timeframe that IPv4 needs to be supported.
Re: How long will it take to completely get rid of IPv4 or will it happen at all?
On Sat, Jun 27, 2015 at 9:38 AM, Bob Evans b...@fiberinternetcenter.com wrote: What will come first ? A) the earths future core rotation changes altering the ionosphere in such a way that we are all exposed to continuous x-rays that shorten our lifespan OR B) the last IPv4 computer running will be reconfigured to IPv6 Thank You Bob Evans CTO At least from a large enterprise perspective, I don't really care when IPv4 is removed from that last computer. Instead, I care about how long it will take us to eliminate IPv4 from most or all of our internal network and confine its continued support to our dual-stacked public resources and legacy support at our perimeter. In particular, our plans right now focus on transitioning to a native IPv6-only wide area network providing legacy protocol support where needed using LISP. (We already have LISP configured and deployed to our largest sites.) We're in the process of ensuring all clients are dual-stacked and deploying IPv6 to internal applications. We are testing and developing a process to create IPv4 enclaves in our data centers for applications that cannot timely transition fronted by NAT64 so we can start removing IPv4 from our many smaller access network sites. It's not really our problem or concern how long some people choose to keep IPv4-only systems running, even as those systems increasingly become second-class citizens on the network. Running a large, fully dual-stacked enterprise network is overly-complex, increases costs, and imposes limitations. As time proceeds, I expect most enterprises that haven't already done so will reach a similar conclusion. I've never worked at a carrier or ISP, so I have no particular insight into the drivers pushing those sorts of networks. But the presentation by Comcast on possible plans to provide long term legacy IPv4 support as an overlay service suggest to me that the drivers are not completely dissimilar from their perspective. So it really doesn't matter that much how long IPv4 continues to exist in one sense or another. It's the tipping point where much of the Internet begins to treat it as a second-class citizen that really matters. I would suggest most people will not like ending up on the wrong side of that curve. My perspective, anyway. Scott
Re: How long will it take to completely get rid of IPv4 or will it happen at all?
On (2015-06-27 07:38 -0700), Bob Evans wrote: Hey Bob, What will come first ? A) the earths future core rotation changes altering the ionosphere in such a way that we are all exposed to continuous x-rays that shorten our lifespan As a firm believer of sustainable development I furiously believe that once this solar system becomes uninhabitable we've takenflora and fauna in galactic Noah's Ark to next useful system. Any development prohibiting this outcome is clearly less sustainable. Having said that, both IPv4 and IPv6 will be obsolete before heath death of universe, but I believe IPv4 will out-live IPv6 much like 2G GSM will outlive 3G, due to various legacy applications. None of this will matter much to us, as it'll be deep in the edge taken care by integrators not operators. B) the last IPv4 computer running will be reconfigured to IPv6 Never. The cost of doing so in some environments will eclipse cost of translating at the edge, for same reason there are IPX, X.25, FrameRelay, ATM, CLNS networks for decades to come. All or nothing proposals are rarely data-driven decisions, but tend to be sentimental decisions 'x is old, thus it must be gone' -- ++ytti
Re: How long will it take to completely get rid of IPv4 or will it happen at all?
Is anybody still using IPX or TokenRing? I've heard that TokenRing is over 9000 times better for iSCSI since you are guaranteed that the packets will not get collisions. On 27 Jun 2015 18:39, Fredy Kuenzler kuenz...@init7.net wrote: Am 27.06.2015 um 16:38 schrieb Bob Evans: We have a greater supply for packets to travel than we do for addresses required to move packets. Do you know how many packets a single IP address can generate or utilize, if it was attached too The World's Fastest Internet in someplace like Canadaland or Sweden on init7's Fiber7 ? Thanks for mentioning Fiber7, which is actually available in Switzerland, not Sweden. And every Fiber7 customer gets a /48, too. -- Fredy Kuenzler - Fiber7. No Limits. https://www.fiber7.ch - Init7 (Switzerland) Ltd. AS13030 St.-Georgen-Strasse 70 CH-8400 Winterthur Skype: flyingpotato Phone: +41 44 315 4400 Fax: +41 44 315 4401 Twitter: @init7 / @kuenzler http://www.init7.net/
Re: How long will it take to completely get rid of IPv4 or will it happen at all?
Am 27.06.2015 um 16:38 schrieb Bob Evans: We have a greater supply for packets to travel than we do for addresses required to move packets. Do you know how many packets a single IP address can generate or utilize, if it was attached too The World's Fastest Internet in someplace like Canadaland or Sweden on init7's Fiber7 ? Thanks for mentioning Fiber7, which is actually available in Switzerland, not Sweden. And every Fiber7 customer gets a /48, too. -- Fredy Kuenzler - Fiber7. No Limits. https://www.fiber7.ch - Init7 (Switzerland) Ltd. AS13030 St.-Georgen-Strasse 70 CH-8400 Winterthur Skype: flyingpotato Phone: +41 44 315 4400 Fax: +41 44 315 4401 Twitter: @init7 / @kuenzler http://www.init7.net/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: How long will it take to completely get rid of IPv4 or will it happen at all?
I agree with Tony, but at the same time, I also find myself having a hard time rendering an opinion as to timeframe. It'll probably be surprising, but as someone who joined the Internet in the 1990s when IRC was still the pinnacle of what we could do, it's hard to imagine v4 ever going away completely. Maybe a hold- over for legacy services a bit like AM or shortwave radio? Uncertain, but an intriguing thought experiment. On Sat, Jun 27, 2015 at 1:02 PM, Tony Hain alh-i...@tndh.net wrote: Bob Evans wrote: Our fundamental issue is that an IPv4 address has no real value as networks still give them away, it's pennies in your pocket. Everything of use needs to have a cost to motivate for change. Establishing that now won't create change it will first create greater conservation. There will be a cost that will be reached before change takes place on a scale that matters. Networks set the false perception and customer expectation that address space is free and readily available. Networks with plenty, still land many customers today by handing over a class C to customer with less than 10 servers and 5 people in an office. We have a greater supply for packets to travel than we do for addresses required to move packets. Do you know how many packets a single IP address can generate or utilize, if it was attached too The World's Fastest Internet in someplace like Canadaland or Sweden on init7's Fiber7 ? No matter how large the pipe the answer is always, all of it. It's address space we should now place a price upon. Unlike, My Space's disappearance when Facebook arrived there is no quick jump to IPv6. There is no coordinated effort required that involves millions of people to change browser window content. But to answer your question... Everything that is handed over for free is perceived as having no value. Therefore, IPv4 has to cost much more than the cost to change to IPv6 today. While the IPv6 addresses are free, it is expensive to change. Businesses spend lots of money on a free lunches. It's going to take at least the price of one good lunch per IP address per month to create the consideration for change. That's about $30 for 2 people in California. Offering a /48 of free IPv6 space to everyone on the planet didn't make it happen. There is no financial incentive to move to IPv6. In fact there is more reason not to change than to change. The new gear cost $$$ (lots of it didn't work well and required exploration to learn that), IT people need hours to implement (schedules are full of day-to-day issues), networks keep growing with offerings that drop Internet costs and save everyone money, business as usual is productive on IPv4 (business doesn't have time for distraction), many of us get distracted by something more immediate and interesting than buying a new wi-fi router for the home. What will come first ? A) the earths future core rotation changes altering the ionosphere in such a way that we are all exposed to continuous x-rays that shorten our lifespan OR B) the last IPv4 computer running will be reconfigured to IPv6 Thank You Bob Evans CTO Rewind the clock 20 years s/ipv4/sna/ s/ipv6/ipv4/ and/or rewind the clock 15 years s/ipv4/tdm/ s/ipv6/voip/ and your rant is exactly what was coming out of enterprises and carriers at those times. The only thing more constant than change in this industry is the intransigence of the luddites that believe they are the masters of the universe and will refuse to move with the tide. Sometimes (like in the case of IPv4) they can build a strong seawall that will hold the tide back for a decade, but rest assured that the tide always wins. I have looked and can't find the references, but I distinctly remember Businessweek or Fortune magazine covers in the late 90's with phrases to the effect of 'SNA Forever' or 'SNA is for real business/IPv4 is an experimental toy'. I have also been in meetings with carriers and been told No end customer will ever fill a DS-3. Those are inter-city exchange circuits, and there isn't enough data in the world to fill one, having just told them we were connecting CERN to Cal-tech. To the point of the original question, look to history for some indication. While people in the late 90's were busy trying to figure out how to translate web pages to SNA terminals, within ~ 5 years, the noise was gone. I am sure you will still find pockets of legacy SNA in use, but nobody cares. Then look at the education system. Once you retire-out the tenured dinosaurs that are still teaching classfull IPv4, followed by a generation of upstarts that never learned about those tiny 32-bit locators which could only possibly identify 1% of the connected devices they are aware of, it will die off. Until then, it will move to the backwaters where nobody cares. When you ignore the costs of
Re: How long will it take to completely get rid of IPv4 or will it happen at all?
Quite a few folks actually. (the 802.5 802.4 specs)…. This is kind of like asking when we will stop using ethernet framing (ethernet was designed for a 3Mbps transmission rate) yet we are deploying 100Gbps networks. Still stuck on that 1500byte limitation. When can we get rid of that? manning bmann...@karoshi.com PO Box 12317 Marina del Rey, CA 90295 310.322.8102 On 27June2015Saturday, at 9:49, Bacon Zombie baconzom...@gmail.com wrote: Is anybody still using IPX or TokenRing? I've heard that TokenRing is over 9000 times better for iSCSI since you are guaranteed that the packets will not get collisions. On 27 Jun 2015 18:39, Fredy Kuenzler kuenz...@init7.net wrote: Am 27.06.2015 um 16:38 schrieb Bob Evans: We have a greater supply for packets to travel than we do for addresses required to move packets. Do you know how many packets a single IP address can generate or utilize, if it was attached too The World's Fastest Internet in someplace like Canadaland or Sweden on init7's Fiber7 ? Thanks for mentioning Fiber7, which is actually available in Switzerland, not Sweden. And every Fiber7 customer gets a /48, too. -- Fredy Kuenzler - Fiber7. No Limits. https://www.fiber7.ch - Init7 (Switzerland) Ltd. AS13030 St.-Georgen-Strasse 70 CH-8400 Winterthur Skype: flyingpotato Phone: +41 44 315 4400 Fax: +41 44 315 4401 Twitter: @init7 / @kuenzler http://www.init7.net/
RE: How long will it take to completely get rid of IPv4 or will it happen at all?
IPX with EIGRP or NLSP wasn't bad over the WAN. Can't help you with TokenRing though. Chuck -Original Message- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Randy Bush Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2015 8:14 PM To: Bacon Zombie Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: How long will it take to completely get rid of IPv4 or will it happen at all? Is anybody still using IPX or TokenRing? both great wide-area protocols. oh, wait. randy
RE: How long will it take to completely get rid of IPv4 or will it happen at all?
I see your IPX and raise you Appletalk. Appletalk was king of fill up the WAN (64k or so in those days) with just broadcast traffic. Oh, are playing what sucked more than IPv4 ? ;Subject: RE: How long will it take to completely get rid of IPv4 or will it happen at all? ;IPX with EIGRP or NLSP wasn't bad over the WAN. Can't help you with TokenRing though.
Re: How long will it take to completely get rid of IPv4 or will it happen at all?
Is anybody still using IPX or TokenRing? both great wide-area protocols. oh, wait. randy
Re: How long will it take to completely get rid of IPv4 or will it happen at all?
On Sat, 27 Jun 2015 07:38:43 -0700, Bob Evans said: What will come first ? A) the earths future core rotation changes altering the ionosphere in such a way that we are all exposed to continuous x-rays that shorten our lifespan OR B) the last IPv4 computer running will be reconfigured to IPv6 Data point: I just ran a tcpdump looking for NTP packets going to 128.173.14.71. In 90 minutes, I got hits from 330 unique IP addresses, including some that were chatty enough to indicate there were dozens of hosts behind a NAT. The biggest offenders: % tcpdump -n -r ~/ntp.dump | cut -f3 -d' ' | cut -f1-4 -d'.' | sort | uniq -c | sort -nr | head -30 reading from file /home/valdis/ntp.dump, link-type EN10MB (Ethernet) 5507 200.195.163.227 3797 74.254.73.226 2989 200.19.200.174 1718 50.129.20.208 1160 200.169.44.45 1119 200.206.35.74 624 201.64.113.34 516 186.215.65.33 352 201.48.247.23 352 187.72.210.97 350 200.171.23.66 281 177.96.208.28 212 187.28.183.82 206 189.22.174.82 200 200.195.127.118 195 187.72.239.145 180 68.213.39.6 180 198.234.129.210 176 201.93.57.129 176 201.90.121.244 176 201.82.103.134 176 201.67.192.74 176 201.59.167.213 176 201.55.163.226 176 201.55.123.98 176 201.48.80.252 176 201.30.191.178 176 201.26.253.187 176 200.250.99.132 176 200.247.208.84 Note that 128.173.14.71 was an IBM RS/6000 taken out of service in June 1999, and we've not re-used the IP address since. So basically, anybody who has tried to get NTP from that address anytime this century has come up empty. The other scary number? % tcpdump -n -r ~/ntp.dump | grep NTP | cut -f6 -d' ' | sort | uniq -c reading from file /home/valdis/ntp.dump, link-type EN10MB (Ethernet) 413 NTPv1, 205 NTPv2, 34900 NTPv3, 2155 NTPv4, I'm not sure which scares me more - that there are boxes on the net *still* running v1 or v2, or boxes that have upgraded to v4 and are blindly using the same ntp.conf without bothering to sanity check if a clock is still usable pgpCcPb_X9j3w.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: How long will it take to completely get rid of IPv4 or will it happen at all?
On 06/27/2015 11:48 AM, manning wrote: This is kind of like asking when we will stop using ethernet framing (ethernet was designed for a 3Mbps transmission rate) yet we are deploying 100Gbps networks. Still stuck on that 1500byte limitation. When can we get rid of that? Speed has nothing to do with frame size. The 1500 byte limitation is more a function of the CRC algorithm. (Oh, the initial frame size was selected for 3-mbit Ethernet so that collision mitigation was reasonable.) Think about jumbo frames (9000 bytes) and their robust error detection. Research is being done in even larger frames, because the rule is that as your transmission rate increases, you should increase the frame size and use a FRC algorithm that detects all one-bit errors and most two-bit errors, at least.
Re: How long will it take to completely get rid of IPv4 or will it happen at all?
On Saturday, June 27, 2015, Bob Evans b...@fiberinternetcenter.com wrote: When will the change happen then you might ask. Very simple. If the largest destinations like fb/twitter and others start to drop v4. Agreed, IPv4 will be here a long time, because, not one company will risk financial loses and stock devaluation over address space. The day that a large company flips to IPv6 only in an IPv4 world will be the day to short as many shares of that stock as possible. T-Mobile US large enough ? http://www.internetsociety.org/deploy360/resources/case-study-t-mobile-us-goes-ipv6-only-using-464xlat/ I hear they have more ipv6-only subscribers than ipv4 CB This creates the big market for IPv4. Costs price per IP address must get beyond the price of a good lunch once per month. Because, that's an amount that businesses understand and begin to pay attention. IPv4 address space is now a profit center and will cost more to the end user than transit and network costs... Or... how will IPv6 catch on in any other way ?
Re: How long will it take to completely get rid of IPv4 or will it happen at all?
When will the change happen then you might ask. Very simple. If the largest destinations like fb/twitter and others start to drop v4. Agreed, IPv4 will be here a long time, because, not one company will risk financial loses and stock devaluation over address space. The day that a large company flips to IPv6 only in an IPv4 world will be the day to short as many shares of that stock as possible. This creates the big market for IPv4. Costs price per IP address must get beyond the price of a good lunch once per month. Because, that's an amount that businesses understand and begin to pay attention. IPv4 address space is now a profit center and will cost more to the end user than transit and network costs... Or... how will IPv6 catch on in any other way ?
Re: How long will it take to completely get rid of IPv4 or will it happen at all?
This is like the switch to using MX only for email rather than MX. and A for mon MX aware systems. It will just happen and no one will notice. Mark On 28/06/2015, at 12:48, Bob Evans b...@fiberinternetcenter.com wrote: When will the change happen then you might ask. Very simple. If the largest destinations like fb/twitter and others start to drop v4. Agreed, IPv4 will be here a long time, because, not one company will risk financial loses and stock devaluation over address space. The day that a large company flips to IPv6 only in an IPv4 world will be the day to short as many shares of that stock as possible. This creates the big market for IPv4. Costs price per IP address must get beyond the price of a good lunch once per month. Because, that's an amount that businesses understand and begin to pay attention. IPv4 address space is now a profit center and will cost more to the end user than transit and network costs... Or... how will IPv6 catch on in any other way ?
Re: How long will it take to completely get rid of IPv4 or will it happen at all?
On Sat, 27 Jun 2015, Ca By wrote: T-Mobile US large enough ? http://www.internetsociety.org/deploy360/resources/case-study-t-mobile-us-goes-ipv6-only-using-464xlat/ I hear they have more ipv6-only subscribers than ipv4 By IPv6 only I believe he meant stop offering IPv4 reachability to customers. Since you use 464XLAT and NAT64, you still offer IPv4 access even though it's done over IPv6 to the customer. -- Mikael Abrahamssonemail: swm...@swm.pp.se
