Re: VDSL >2 Pair Bonding Modems

[Mike Hammett]

I have found a modem with Positron that'll do up to 8 pair of bonding. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

Midwest-IX 
http://www.midwest-ix.com 

- Original Message -

From: "Mike Hammett"  
To: "nanog"  
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2024 3:09:07 PM 
Subject: VDSL >2 Pair Bonding Modems 


I recently figured out that my Calix E7s can bond more than 2 pair of VDSL 
lines. However, none of my modem vendors seem to support more than 2 pair. What 
modem platforms are people using in this scenario? 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

Midwest-IX 
http://www.midwest-ix.com 

Re: VDSL

[Colton Conor]

We bond 8 VDSL2 pairs together, so getting 500Mbps is easily possible if
they are close to the DSLAM.

On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 5:28 PM Ryland Kremeier 
wrote:

> We provide between 250Mb/s and 1Gb/s fiber-to-the-home services to all our
> subscribers. We do not use VDSL.
>
> I personally do not have our services in my area yet as I live at the
> furthest possible point to which we will expand. So until then I use
> Centurylink.
>
>
>
> *From:* Matt Harris 
> *Sent:* Friday, October 18, 2019 9:08 AM
> *To:* Ryland Kremeier 
> *Cc:* Rod Beck ; Nanog@nanog.org
> *Subject:* Re: VDSL
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 8:46 AM Ryland Kremeier <
> rkreme...@barryelectric.com> wrote:
>
> Can confirm. Currently on VDSL in rural Missouri, speed is capped at
> 5Mb/s, but has the capability of 7.5Mb/s. All customers from the provider
> here are on VDSL.
>
>
>
> I'm guessing from your email address that you get that from your electric
> coop, too? At the state fair a couple of months ago, I had the opportunity
> to speak to the guy who architected and implemented the FTTH rollout for
> Ralls County electric coop, up north of StL along the IL border. They did,
> from what I could tell from my conversation, everything right and were
> providing gigabit services to their users even in relatively rural areas.
> Hopefully you guys will get something like that going at some point soon as
> well!
>
>
>

RE: VDSL

[Ryland Kremeier]

We provide between 250Mb/s and 1Gb/s fiber-to-the-home services to all our 
subscribers. We do not use VDSL.
I personally do not have our services in my area yet as I live at the furthest 
possible point to which we will expand. So until then I use Centurylink.

From: Matt Harris 
Sent: Friday, October 18, 2019 9:08 AM
To: Ryland Kremeier 
Cc: Rod Beck ; Nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: VDSL

On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 8:46 AM Ryland Kremeier 
mailto:rkreme...@barryelectric.com>> wrote:
Can confirm. Currently on VDSL in rural Missouri, speed is capped at 5Mb/s, but 
has the capability of 7.5Mb/s. All customers from the provider here are on VDSL.

I'm guessing from your email address that you get that from your electric coop, 
too? At the state fair a couple of months ago, I had the opportunity to speak 
to the guy who architected and implemented the FTTH rollout for Ralls County 
electric coop, up north of StL along the IL border. They did, from what I could 
tell from my conversation, everything right and were providing gigabit services 
to their users even in relatively rural areas. Hopefully you guys will get 
something like that going at some point soon as well!

RE: VDSL

[Ryland Kremeier]

Can confirm. Currently on VDSL in rural Missouri, speed is capped at 5Mb/s, but 
has the capability of 7.5Mb/s. All customers from the provider here are on VDSL.

From: NANOG  On Behalf Of Matt Harris
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 12:38 PM
To: Rod Beck 
Cc: Nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: VDSL

On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 12:25 PM Rod Beck 
mailto:rod.b...@unitedcablecompany.com>> wrote:
Hi,

I discovered that the Budapest cable company was using VDLS to provide services 
up to 500 megs into the buildings where my flats are located. VDSL is a pretty 
old standard. I recollect people talking about it back in 1998.

Is it being heavily deployed in Last Mile networks state side?

Hey Rod,
Are you sure they're using VDSL (I'm assuming you mean VDSL2 which is still in 
fairly wide use around the world)? 500mbit VDSL2 would have a very short run 
limitation afaik. It wouldn't be last mile, more like last meter. :)

It's not super-widely used in the US today since Verizon and others have built 
out increasing FTTH networks and always had to compete with DOCSIS based 
services which are very widespread here, though I wouldn't be surprised if it 
was still frequently the "better than satellite!" service available in some 
rural areas that aren't too hard to reach with cabling. A decade ago, you 
would've seen a lot more VDSL2 deployments here in the US, though usually no 
more than 25 or 50 mbit capacity for the end-user.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_VDSL_and_VDSL2_deployments has a bunch of 
interesting details though I can attest to some of them being fairly out of 
date.

Re: VDSL

[Matt Harris]

On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 8:46 AM Ryland Kremeier 
wrote:

> Can confirm. Currently on VDSL in rural Missouri, speed is capped at
> 5Mb/s, but has the capability of 7.5Mb/s. All customers from the provider
> here are on VDSL.
>

I'm guessing from your email address that you get that from your electric
coop, too? At the state fair a couple of months ago, I had the opportunity
to speak to the guy who architected and implemented the FTTH rollout for
Ralls County electric coop, up north of StL along the IL border. They did,
from what I could tell from my conversation, everything right and were
providing gigabit services to their users even in relatively rural areas.
Hopefully you guys will get something like that going at some point soon as
well!

Re: VDSL

[Michael Thomas]

On 10/16/19 5:12 PM, Brandon Martin wrote:

On 10/16/19 2:42 PM, Jeff Shultz wrote:

But I'm confused a bit by the below - G.Fast is a twisted pair
standard, last I saw - why would a cable (presumably coax) company be
offering it?  Are they just taking over the PTT's inside wiring?


G.fast has definitions for both twisted pair and coax PHYs.  That gets 
everybody interested.


The biggest issue for the CATV operators is that the coax PHY 
monopolizes the cable meaning you can't use it for conventional 
channelized RF type services, so if the subscriber wants cable TV in 
addition to IP service, you either have to have a side-by-side IPTV 
deployment or revert to running DOCSIS over channelized RF next to 
your linear TV system.  I've seen micro fiber-fed DOCSIS nodes for 
this purpose.  DOCSIS 3.1 with a good RF budget and lots of channel 
space can get a few gigs of bandwidth which is quite usable for a 
midsize MDU. Chuck one of those down in the telco room, and you're 
good to feed potentially a couple hundred units using traditional 
DOCSIS+linear TV which is what people expect from a CATV operator.  
Anyone who just wants IP service and ends up wanting tons of bandwidth 
can get moved over to packet-fed G.fast as needed.



As somebody who stopped using satellite/cable about a year ago, I can't 
see any reason why you'd want to get a cable package when you can get an 
over the top package for about $60 less. Yes, hulu and youtube's UI's 
suck, but that's a curable problem.


I do this on a 25Mb dsl link and it works just fine. Cable tv qua cable 
tv is doomed.


Mike

Re: VDSL

[Mike Meredith via NANOG]

On Thu, 17 Oct 2019 09:45:35 +0100 (BST), "t...@pelican.org"
 may have written:
> The chickens have come home to roost now though, as they're struggling to
> find a cool branding for the subsequent FTTP roll-out, and not getting
> any better than "full fibre", a.k.a "we lied to you last time, but this
> time it really is..."

"We mispelt it last time - it should have been 'fibber broadband'; this
time it's proper 'fibre broadband'"

-- 
Mike Meredith, University of Portsmouth
Hostmaster, Security, and Chief Systems Engineer
 


pgpBXst7CoQwF.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: VDSL

[t...@pelican.org]

On Wednesday, 16 October, 2019 19:42, "Jeff Shultz"  
said:

> Just like any broadband deployed by a Telco gets called "DSL" these
> days - even if it's 1G fiber. And even by those in the industry who
> should know better.

We have the opposite problem in the UK - the VDSL (FTTC) roll-out was branded 
as "fibre broadband", much the annoyance of pretty much everyone I know in the 
industry.

The chickens have come home to roost now though, as they're struggling to find 
a cool branding for the subsequent FTTP roll-out, and not getting any better 
than "full fibre", a.k.a "we lied to you last time, but this time it really 
is..."

Regards,
Tim.

Re: VDSL

[Brandon Martin]

On 10/16/19 2:42 PM, Jeff Shultz wrote:

But I'm confused a bit by the below - G.Fast is a twisted pair
standard, last I saw - why would a cable (presumably coax) company be
offering it?  Are they just taking over the PTT's inside wiring?


G.fast has definitions for both twisted pair and coax PHYs.  That gets 
everybody interested.


The biggest issue for the CATV operators is that the coax PHY 
monopolizes the cable meaning you can't use it for conventional 
channelized RF type services, so if the subscriber wants cable TV in 
addition to IP service, you either have to have a side-by-side IPTV 
deployment or revert to running DOCSIS over channelized RF next to your 
linear TV system.  I've seen micro fiber-fed DOCSIS nodes for this 
purpose.  DOCSIS 3.1 with a good RF budget and lots of channel space can 
get a few gigs of bandwidth which is quite usable for a midsize MDU. 
Chuck one of those down in the telco room, and you're good to feed 
potentially a couple hundred units using traditional DOCSIS+linear TV 
which is what people expect from a CATV operator.  Anyone who just wants 
IP service and ends up wanting tons of bandwidth can get moved over to 
packet-fed G.fast as needed.

--
Brandon Martin

Re: VDSL

[Jeff Shultz]

Just like any broadband deployed by a Telco gets called "DSL" these
days - even if it's 1G fiber. And even by those in the industry who
should know better.

Annoying.

But I'm confused a bit by the below - G.Fast is a twisted pair
standard, last I saw - why would a cable (presumably coax) company be
offering it?  Are they just taking over the PTT's inside wiring?

On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 1:26 AM Rod Beck
 wrote:
>
> Well, the cable company here is offering 500 megs to the entire 5 story 
> building. My guess is that this G fast standard is what is being deployed 
> here and they loosely call it 'VDSL'.
>
> 


-- 
Jeff Shultz

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Re: VDSL

[Bjoern Franke]

Am 15.10.19 um 19:51 schrieb Eric Dugas:

Bell Canada still uses a lot of VDSL2 last-miles in Quebec and Ontario.

Max speed is 100/10 over bonded pairs and 50/10 over a single pair over 
short distances. Generally served from a fiber-fed DSLAM and less than 
500 meters.


In Germany 250/40 is possible over a single pair within 300 meters using 
VDSL2 Annex Q 35b, the telcos offers it as "super vectoring".

Re: VDSL

[Rod Beck]

Well, the cable company here is offering 500 megs to the entire 5 story 
building. My guess is that this G fast standard is what is being deployed here 
and they loosely call it 'VDSL'.


From: NANOG  on behalf of Brandon Martin 

Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2019 10:16 AM
To: nanog@nanog.org 
Subject: Re: VDSL

On 10/15/19 8:25 PM, Brielle wrote:
> Its actually got pretty heavy use in a lot of CenturyLink areas, like
> here in Boise.  Fiber is only now starting to become the norm, so
> everyone is on VDSL2 in single or bonded modes, speeds all the way up to
> around 50mbit down.

AT U-Verse in ex-SBC territories basically was their deployment of
VDSL/VDSL2 back when it was new.  Some installs used bonded ADSL2+ where
they didn't have a node close enough to really get any advantage of VDSL.

These days, it's their catch-all name for anything that isn't classic
ADSL served out of the CO, including their (very limited and apparently
halted) FTTH deployment.  VDSL is still very prevalent.  I'm not in a
territory served by it, but I know plenty of people nearby who are and,
unless you happen to be on a FTTH path (which means you're either in
select MDUs or happen to be on the path they took to get to one), you're
getting VDSL2 if you call them up and order U-Verse Internet service.

They deliver up to 100Mbps with pair-bonded VDSL2 assuming you're close
enough to the node.
--
Brandon Martin

Re: VDSL

[Brandon Martin]

On 10/15/19 1:51 PM, Rod Beck wrote:
These are large 19th century buildings with courtyards. I have seen lots 
of activity on this street - fiber being pulled from manhole and gear 
being installed in cable manholes. Corning on the cables.


Sounds like a fiber-to-the-curb deployment with G.FAST as the last 
"mile".  They run fiber to the nearest pedestal then install a small 
G.FAST ONU/DPU at the pedestal fed by that fiber then delivering 
potentially 500-1000Mbps over the last few 100ft into the existing 
building on existing copper.  Saves them from having to pull new drops 
which can get very expensive.


It's a bit of a stop-gap to a full FTTH deployment, but it'll get you 
very usable service for now and is relatively easily upgraded to full 
FTTH in the future by just pulling a real fiber drop and hooking it up 
to the existing fiber that's being used to feed the G.FAST ONU/DPU.


A lot of the G.FAST ONU/DPUs support VDSL2 fallback which they'll use if 
the copper turns out to be especially terrible, too long, or the 
customer doesn't want more than 50-100Mbps since the VDSL CPEs are 
somewhat significantly cheaper than G.FAST.  Might be where "VDSL" came 
from.


--
Brandon Martin

Re: VDSL

[Brandon Martin]

On 10/15/19 8:25 PM, Brielle wrote:
Its actually got pretty heavy use in a lot of CenturyLink areas, like 
here in Boise.  Fiber is only now starting to become the norm, so 
everyone is on VDSL2 in single or bonded modes, speeds all the way up to 
around 50mbit down.


AT U-Verse in ex-SBC territories basically was their deployment of 
VDSL/VDSL2 back when it was new.  Some installs used bonded ADSL2+ where 
they didn't have a node close enough to really get any advantage of VDSL.


These days, it's their catch-all name for anything that isn't classic 
ADSL served out of the CO, including their (very limited and apparently 
halted) FTTH deployment.  VDSL is still very prevalent.  I'm not in a 
territory served by it, but I know plenty of people nearby who are and, 
unless you happen to be on a FTTH path (which means you're either in 
select MDUs or happen to be on the path they took to get to one), you're 
getting VDSL2 if you call them up and order U-Verse Internet service.


They deliver up to 100Mbps with pair-bonded VDSL2 assuming you're close 
enough to the node.

--
Brandon Martin

Re: VDSL

[Brielle]

On 10/15/2019 11:37 AM, Matt Harris wrote:


It's not super-widely used in the US today 



Its actually got pretty heavy use in a lot of CenturyLink areas, like 
here in Boise.  Fiber is only now starting to become the norm, so 
everyone is on VDSL2 in single or bonded modes, speeds all the way up to 
around 50mbit down.


--
Brielle Bruns
The Summit Open Source Development Group
http://www.sosdg.org/ http://www.ahbl.org

Re: VDSL

[Rod Beck]

Both the cable and PTT have wiring in the buildings, but I suspect it is all 
CAT5 or the European equivalent in each apartment. Most of these flats have not 
been renovated in 30 to 50 years and that is usually when the flat is renovated 
that wiring would get upgraded. The cable company will often insist on rewiring 
the flat's own wiring if it has never provided service before.


From: NANOG  on behalf of Rod Beck 

Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 7:55 PM
To: Phil Lavin ; Nanog@nanog.org 
Subject: Re: VDSL

The PTT is limited in 50 megs in this building. However, the cable company just 
upgraded its network and is now offering up to 500. I assume the cable company 
is using coax and may be that gives them an edge when combined with VDSL to get 
up to 500 megs.


From: Phil Lavin 
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 7:48 PM
To: Rod Beck ; Nanog@nanog.org 

Subject: RE: VDSL

> I discovered that the Budapest cable company was using VDLS to provide 
> services up to 500 megs into the buildings where my flats are located. VDSL 
> is a pretty old standard. I recollect people talking about it back in 1998.

> Is it being heavily deployed in Last Mile networks state side?

DSL on the whole seems pretty unpopular in the USA. VDSL itself is a fairly old 
standard but it's been enhanced over the years to provide bandwidths up to 
300mbit on a single twisted copper pair, albeit over relatively short distances.

DSL (these days, specifically VDSL2) is extremely popular and widely used 
within the UK because almost every home has a single twisted pair going into it 
for a POTS phone line. It made sense to run services over this than to re-cable 
25 million homes. A (very) slow FTTH rollout is under way but what seems to be 
getting more traction is a rollout of G.Fast which currently boasts speeds of 
up to 500mbit over short distances (< 100m), still on a single twisted copper 
pair. This may be what you're getting as VDSL2 won't push to 500mbit over any 
sensible distance.

I can only speculate on why they decided to use DSL in your building - if it 
has legacy POTS infrastructure to each apartment, it would make some sense. If 
not, who knows...

Re: VDSL

[Tim Howe]

That's what I would expect.  A Gfast ONU in the building with fiber
backhaul.  You can use legacy Cat3 pair or coax to get from the Telco
closet to each suite.  That's basically what Gfast is for.

--TimH

On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 17:51:50 +
Rod Beck  wrote:

> These are large 19th century buildings with courtyards. I have seen lots of 
> activity on this street - fiber being pulled from manhole and gear being 
> installed in cable manholes. Corning on the cables.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Roderick.
> 
> 
> From: NANOG  on behalf of Tim Howe 
> 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 7:47 PM
> To: Nanog@nanog.org 
> Subject: Re: VDSL
> 
> On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 17:24:44 +
> Rod Beck  wrote:
> 
> > Hi,
> >
> > I discovered that the Budapest cable company was using VDLS to
> > provide services up to 500 megs into the buildings where my flats are
> > located. VDSL is a pretty old standard. I recollect people talking
> > about it back in 1998.
> >
> > Is it being heavily deployed in Last Mile networks state side?  
> 
> Sounds more like an in-building Gfast deployment, which
> is /technically/ a kind of DSL.  To get 500Mb on a single pair I think
> you would need a distance shorter than 1000ft.  This is pretty recent
> tech, and a multi dwelling scenario would be the most common deployment
> afaik.
> 
> --TimH

Re: VDSL

[Rod Beck]

The PTT is limited in 50 megs in this building. However, the cable company just 
upgraded its network and is now offering up to 500. I assume the cable company 
is using coax and may be that gives them an edge when combined with VDSL to get 
up to 500 megs.


From: Phil Lavin 
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 7:48 PM
To: Rod Beck ; Nanog@nanog.org 

Subject: RE: VDSL

> I discovered that the Budapest cable company was using VDLS to provide 
> services up to 500 megs into the buildings where my flats are located. VDSL 
> is a pretty old standard. I recollect people talking about it back in 1998.

> Is it being heavily deployed in Last Mile networks state side?

DSL on the whole seems pretty unpopular in the USA. VDSL itself is a fairly old 
standard but it's been enhanced over the years to provide bandwidths up to 
300mbit on a single twisted copper pair, albeit over relatively short distances.

DSL (these days, specifically VDSL2) is extremely popular and widely used 
within the UK because almost every home has a single twisted pair going into it 
for a POTS phone line. It made sense to run services over this than to re-cable 
25 million homes. A (very) slow FTTH rollout is under way but what seems to be 
getting more traction is a rollout of G.Fast which currently boasts speeds of 
up to 500mbit over short distances (< 100m), still on a single twisted copper 
pair. This may be what you're getting as VDSL2 won't push to 500mbit over any 
sensible distance.

I can only speculate on why they decided to use DSL in your building - if it 
has legacy POTS infrastructure to each apartment, it would make some sense. If 
not, who knows...

Re: VDSL

[Rod Beck]

These are large 19th century buildings with courtyards. I have seen lots of 
activity on this street - fiber being pulled from manhole and gear being 
installed in cable manholes. Corning on the cables.

Regards,

Roderick.


From: NANOG  on behalf of Tim Howe 
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 7:47 PM
To: Nanog@nanog.org 
Subject: Re: VDSL

On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 17:24:44 +
Rod Beck  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I discovered that the Budapest cable company was using VDLS to
> provide services up to 500 megs into the buildings where my flats are
> located. VDSL is a pretty old standard. I recollect people talking
> about it back in 1998.
>
> Is it being heavily deployed in Last Mile networks state side?

Sounds more like an in-building Gfast deployment, which
is /technically/ a kind of DSL.  To get 500Mb on a single pair I think
you would need a distance shorter than 1000ft.  This is pretty recent
tech, and a multi dwelling scenario would be the most common deployment
afaik.

--TimH

Re: VDSL

[Eric Dugas]

Bell Canada still uses a lot of VDSL2 last-miles in Quebec and Ontario.

Max speed is 100/10 over bonded pairs and 50/10 over a single pair over short 
distances. Generally served from a fiber-fed DSLAM and less than 500 meters.
On Oct 15 2019, at 1:48 pm, Rod Beck  wrote:
> I understand. My recollection is that the distance is like 100 meters. VDSL 
> is what the engineers deploying on the street told me. I think there is a 
> node right outside.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Roderick.
>
> From: Matt Harris 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 7:37 PM
> To: Rod Beck 
> Cc: Nanog@nanog.org 
> Subject: Re: VDSL
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 12:25 PM Rod Beck  (mailto:rod.b...@unitedcablecompany.com)> wrote:
>
>
> > Hi,
> >
> >
> > I discovered that the Budapest cable company was using VDLS to provide 
> > services up to 500 megs into the buildings where my flats are located. VDSL 
> > is a pretty old standard. I recollect people talking about it back in 1998.
> >
> > Is it being heavily deployed in Last Mile networks state side?
>
> Hey Rod,
> Are you sure they're using VDSL (I'm assuming you mean VDSL2 which is still 
> in fairly wide use around the world)? 500mbit VDSL2 would have a very short 
> run limitation afaik. It wouldn't be last mile, more like last meter. :)
>
> It's not super-widely used in the US today since Verizon and others have 
> built out increasing FTTH networks and always had to compete with DOCSIS 
> based services which are very widespread here, though I wouldn't be surprised 
> if it was still frequently the "better than satellite!" service available in 
> some rural areas that aren't too hard to reach with cabling. A decade ago, 
> you would've seen a lot more VDSL2 deployments here in the US, though usually 
> no more than 25 or 50 mbit capacity for the end-user.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_VDSL_and_VDSL2_deployments has a bunch 
> of interesting details though I can attest to some of them being fairly out 
> of date.

RE: VDSL

[Phil Lavin]

> I discovered that the Budapest cable company was using VDLS to provide 
> services up to 500 megs into the buildings where my flats are located. VDSL 
> is a pretty old standard. I recollect people talking about it back in 1998. 

> Is it being heavily deployed in Last Mile networks state side?

DSL on the whole seems pretty unpopular in the USA. VDSL itself is a fairly old 
standard but it's been enhanced over the years to provide bandwidths up to 
300mbit on a single twisted copper pair, albeit over relatively short distances.

DSL (these days, specifically VDSL2) is extremely popular and widely used 
within the UK because almost every home has a single twisted pair going into it 
for a POTS phone line. It made sense to run services over this than to re-cable 
25 million homes. A (very) slow FTTH rollout is under way but what seems to be 
getting more traction is a rollout of G.Fast which currently boasts speeds of 
up to 500mbit over short distances (< 100m), still on a single twisted copper 
pair. This may be what you're getting as VDSL2 won't push to 500mbit over any 
sensible distance.

I can only speculate on why they decided to use DSL in your building - if it 
has legacy POTS infrastructure to each apartment, it would make some sense. If 
not, who knows...

Re: VDSL

[Rod Beck]

I understand. My recollection is that the distance is like 100 meters. VDSL is 
what the engineers deploying on the street told me. I think there is a node 
right outside.

Regards,

Roderick.


From: Matt Harris 
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 7:37 PM
To: Rod Beck 
Cc: Nanog@nanog.org 
Subject: Re: VDSL

On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 12:25 PM Rod Beck 
mailto:rod.b...@unitedcablecompany.com>> wrote:
Hi,

I discovered that the Budapest cable company was using VDLS to provide services 
up to 500 megs into the buildings where my flats are located. VDSL is a pretty 
old standard. I recollect people talking about it back in 1998.

Is it being heavily deployed in Last Mile networks state side?

Hey Rod,
Are you sure they're using VDSL (I'm assuming you mean VDSL2 which is still in 
fairly wide use around the world)? 500mbit VDSL2 would have a very short run 
limitation afaik. It wouldn't be last mile, more like last meter. :)

It's not super-widely used in the US today since Verizon and others have built 
out increasing FTTH networks and always had to compete with DOCSIS based 
services which are very widespread here, though I wouldn't be surprised if it 
was still frequently the "better than satellite!" service available in some 
rural areas that aren't too hard to reach with cabling. A decade ago, you 
would've seen a lot more VDSL2 deployments here in the US, though usually no 
more than 25 or 50 mbit capacity for the end-user.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_VDSL_and_VDSL2_deployments has a bunch of 
interesting details though I can attest to some of them being fairly out of 
date.

Re: VDSL

[Tim Howe]

On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 17:24:44 +
Rod Beck  wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I discovered that the Budapest cable company was using VDLS to
> provide services up to 500 megs into the buildings where my flats are
> located. VDSL is a pretty old standard. I recollect people talking
> about it back in 1998.
> 
> Is it being heavily deployed in Last Mile networks state side?

Sounds more like an in-building Gfast deployment, which
is /technically/ a kind of DSL.  To get 500Mb on a single pair I think
you would need a distance shorter than 1000ft.  This is pretty recent
tech, and a multi dwelling scenario would be the most common deployment
afaik.

--TimH

Re: VDSL

[Matt Harris]

On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 12:25 PM Rod Beck 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I discovered that the Budapest cable company was using VDLS to provide
> services up to 500 megs into the buildings where my flats are located. VDSL
> is a pretty old standard. I recollect people talking about it back in 1998.
>
> Is it being heavily deployed in Last Mile networks state side?
>

Hey Rod,
Are you sure they're using VDSL (I'm assuming you mean VDSL2 which is still
in fairly wide use around the world)? 500mbit VDSL2 would have a very short
run limitation afaik. It wouldn't be last mile, more like last meter. :)

It's not super-widely used in the US today since Verizon and others have
built out increasing FTTH networks and always had to compete with DOCSIS
based services which are very widespread here, though I wouldn't be
surprised if it was still frequently the "better than satellite!" service
available in some rural areas that aren't too hard to reach with cabling. A
decade ago, you would've seen a lot more VDSL2 deployments here in the US,
though usually no more than 25 or 50 mbit capacity for the end-user.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_VDSL_and_VDSL2_deployments has a
bunch of interesting details though I can attest to some of them being
fairly out of date.

Re: VDSL CPE Mixed Results

[Colton Conor]

So with this 3 line connection, what speeds up and down are you getting?
You say 10X10 which I find odd for a 3 line bonded VDSL2 connection. Most
always your downstream will be much higher than your upstream on a 868
unit.



On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 8:29 AM, Stetson Blake 
stetson.bl...@datayardworks.com wrote:

 Hey All,

 We have been deploying Adtran 838(shdsl) and 868(dsl) units in our metro
 area with mixed results. The devices themselves are reliable and secure
 it would seem, but the speeds were are able to get are not. ie. we have
 deployed 'vdsl' and needed 3 lines to get up to 10x10 speeds. We are
 using an Adtran TA5000 on the other end to terminate our connections.
 The distance between the site and CO is not great (under 6k feet). What
 gives? Are we provisioning wrong, using the wrong equipment, or a
 combination of both?
 If we were able to get the speeds others have been reporting from VDSL,
 life would be great.
 Anyone feel free to contact me off-list or on, this has had me
 scratching my head for a while now.

 Thanks,

 --
 Stetson Blake
 Network Technician
 DataYard
 130 West Second St.
 Suite 250
 Dayton, OH 45402

 http://datayardworks.com

Re: VDSL CPE Mixed Results

[Andrew Carey]

Also, what do your stats look like? 6kft is getting beyond the sweet spot for 
VDSL2, particularly if you're trying to push 10Mbps on the upstream. 

Sent from my iPhone
 On Jan 15, 2015, at 5:36, Shawn L sha...@up.net wrote:
 
 I was going to ask if you've tested the cable pair at all.  If the pair is
 bad, or even a little out of balance, bad scotch loks, etc. VDSL isn't
 going to work properly.
 
 We have customers that are definitely in-range for VDSL but who cannot get
 it because there is a 26 gauge insert between two cross-connect cabinets in
 the field
 
 On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 8:15 AM, Scott Helms khe...@zcorum.com wrote:
 
 I'm going to guess you're a CLEC from your website and a common problem
 I've seen in that scenario is that vectoring doesn't work between DSLAMs
 because it needs all pairs to be part of the vector group so that the DSLAM
 can mitigate FEXT.  DSLAM vendors have been working on system level, rather
 than DSLAM/binder level, vectoring for a while but cross vendor support is
 questionable at best.
 
 Read the section on system level vectoring especially:
 http://www.adtran.com/web/fileDownload/doc/32362
 
 If you are sharing binders with the ILEC and potentially other CLECs then
 you really need to talk to you ILEC rep and find out what they're doing for
 system level vectoring to see if there is an option for your DSLAMs to be
 included.  That benefits everyone and will _greatly_ increase performance.
 VDSL2 speeds will otherwise be unreachable unless the ILEC gives each CLEC
 their own binder, not very practical.
 
 
 
 Scott Helms
 Vice President of Technology
 ZCorum
 (678) 507-5000
 
 http://twitter.com/kscotthelms
 
 
 On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 9:29 AM, Stetson Blake 
 stetson.bl...@datayardworks.com wrote:
 
 Hey All,
 
 We have been deploying Adtran 838(shdsl) and 868(dsl) units in our metro
 area with mixed results. The devices themselves are reliable and secure
 it would seem, but the speeds were are able to get are not. ie. we have
 deployed 'vdsl' and needed 3 lines to get up to 10x10 speeds. We are
 using an Adtran TA5000 on the other end to terminate our connections.
 The distance between the site and CO is not great (under 6k feet). What
 gives? Are we provisioning wrong, using the wrong equipment, or a
 combination of both?
 If we were able to get the speeds others have been reporting from VDSL,
 life would be great.
 Anyone feel free to contact me off-list or on, this has had me
 scratching my head for a while now.
 
 Thanks,
 
 --
 Stetson Blake
 Network Technician
 DataYard
 130 West Second St.
 Suite 250
 Dayton, OH 45402
 
 http://datayardworks.com
 

Re: VDSL CPE Mixed Results

[Scott Helms]

I'm going to guess you're a CLEC from your website and a common problem
I've seen in that scenario is that vectoring doesn't work between DSLAMs
because it needs all pairs to be part of the vector group so that the DSLAM
can mitigate FEXT.  DSLAM vendors have been working on system level, rather
than DSLAM/binder level, vectoring for a while but cross vendor support is
questionable at best.

Read the section on system level vectoring especially:
http://www.adtran.com/web/fileDownload/doc/32362

If you are sharing binders with the ILEC and potentially other CLECs then
you really need to talk to you ILEC rep and find out what they're doing for
system level vectoring to see if there is an option for your DSLAMs to be
included.  That benefits everyone and will _greatly_ increase performance.
VDSL2 speeds will otherwise be unreachable unless the ILEC gives each CLEC
their own binder, not very practical.



Scott Helms
Vice President of Technology
ZCorum
(678) 507-5000

http://twitter.com/kscotthelms


On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 9:29 AM, Stetson Blake 
stetson.bl...@datayardworks.com wrote:

 Hey All,

 We have been deploying Adtran 838(shdsl) and 868(dsl) units in our metro
 area with mixed results. The devices themselves are reliable and secure
 it would seem, but the speeds were are able to get are not. ie. we have
 deployed 'vdsl' and needed 3 lines to get up to 10x10 speeds. We are
 using an Adtran TA5000 on the other end to terminate our connections.
 The distance between the site and CO is not great (under 6k feet). What
 gives? Are we provisioning wrong, using the wrong equipment, or a
 combination of both?
 If we were able to get the speeds others have been reporting from VDSL,
 life would be great.
 Anyone feel free to contact me off-list or on, this has had me
 scratching my head for a while now.

 Thanks,

 --
 Stetson Blake
 Network Technician
 DataYard
 130 West Second St.
 Suite 250
 Dayton, OH 45402

 http://datayardworks.com

Re: VDSL CPE Mixed Results

[Shawn L]

I was going to ask if you've tested the cable pair at all.  If the pair is
bad, or even a little out of balance, bad scotch loks, etc. VDSL isn't
going to work properly.

We have customers that are definitely in-range for VDSL but who cannot get
it because there is a 26 gauge insert between two cross-connect cabinets in
the field

On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 8:15 AM, Scott Helms khe...@zcorum.com wrote:

 I'm going to guess you're a CLEC from your website and a common problem
 I've seen in that scenario is that vectoring doesn't work between DSLAMs
 because it needs all pairs to be part of the vector group so that the DSLAM
 can mitigate FEXT.  DSLAM vendors have been working on system level, rather
 than DSLAM/binder level, vectoring for a while but cross vendor support is
 questionable at best.

 Read the section on system level vectoring especially:
 http://www.adtran.com/web/fileDownload/doc/32362

 If you are sharing binders with the ILEC and potentially other CLECs then
 you really need to talk to you ILEC rep and find out what they're doing for
 system level vectoring to see if there is an option for your DSLAMs to be
 included.  That benefits everyone and will _greatly_ increase performance.
 VDSL2 speeds will otherwise be unreachable unless the ILEC gives each CLEC
 their own binder, not very practical.



 Scott Helms
 Vice President of Technology
 ZCorum
 (678) 507-5000
 
 http://twitter.com/kscotthelms
 

 On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 9:29 AM, Stetson Blake 
 stetson.bl...@datayardworks.com wrote:

  Hey All,
 
  We have been deploying Adtran 838(shdsl) and 868(dsl) units in our metro
  area with mixed results. The devices themselves are reliable and secure
  it would seem, but the speeds were are able to get are not. ie. we have
  deployed 'vdsl' and needed 3 lines to get up to 10x10 speeds. We are
  using an Adtran TA5000 on the other end to terminate our connections.
  The distance between the site and CO is not great (under 6k feet). What
  gives? Are we provisioning wrong, using the wrong equipment, or a
  combination of both?
  If we were able to get the speeds others have been reporting from VDSL,
  life would be great.
  Anyone feel free to contact me off-list or on, this has had me
  scratching my head for a while now.
 
  Thanks,
 
  --
  Stetson Blake
  Network Technician
  DataYard
  130 West Second St.
  Suite 250
  Dayton, OH 45402
 
  http://datayardworks.com
 
 
 
 
 
 

RE: VDSL CPE Mixed Results

[Frank Bulk]

We've used a few Zhone ETHX-344x4 (http://www.zhone.com/products/ETHX-3400/) 
and been happy with the reliability.  Configuration was a bugger, but if you 
get one of those I can share my template.

Frank

-Original Message-
From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Stetson Blake
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 8:29 AM
To: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: VDSL CPE Mixed Results

Hey All, 

We have been deploying Adtran 838(shdsl) and 868(dsl) units in our metro
area with mixed results. The devices themselves are reliable and secure
it would seem, but the speeds were are able to get are not. ie. we have
deployed 'vdsl' and needed 3 lines to get up to 10x10 speeds. We are
using an Adtran TA5000 on the other end to terminate our connections.
The distance between the site and CO is not great (under 6k feet). What
gives? Are we provisioning wrong, using the wrong equipment, or a
combination of both? 
If we were able to get the speeds others have been reporting from VDSL,
life would be great. 
Anyone feel free to contact me off-list or on, this has had me
scratching my head for a while now. 

Thanks, 

-- 
Stetson Blake
Network Technician 
DataYard
130 West Second St.
Suite 250
Dayton, OH 45402

http://datayardworks.com