Re: Range using single-mode SFPs across multi-mode fiber
Some idiot jumpered runs that existed between 3 different buildings. That person did not know about the 550m limit that we also follow. Sent from my iPhone On Dec 14, 2011, at 22:38, Keegan Holley keegan.hol...@sungard.com wrote: 2011/12/14 oliver rothschild orothsch...@gmail.com Thanks to all who responded to my clumsy first question (both on matters of etiquette and technology). The group I work with (we are a small project acting as a last mile provider) was in the midst of deploying this solution when I posed the question. We put the single mode Juniper SFPs (LX) on to a run of approximately 1670 meters. How did you end up with a MM run this long? SX optics are only rated at 500 meters at best. Even with mode conditioning jumpers more the 1km is a risk. I'm glad it held up during testing though. Just out of curiosity did you purchase dark from a provider? Is it inside of a building?
Re: Range using single-mode SFPs across multi-mode fiber
On Wed, 14 Dec 2011, Keegan Holley wrote: 2011/12/14 oliver rothschild orothsch...@gmail.com How did you end up with a MM run this long? SX optics are only rated at 500 meters at best. Even with mode conditioning jumpers more the 1km is a risk. I'm glad it held up during testing though. Just out of curiosity did you purchase dark from a provider? Is it inside of a building? Legacy 10baseFL/100baseFX/FDDI can run fairly long distances over OM1. In the past I've run 100baseFX over OM1 runs with multiple cross-connects, out to about 2 km. jms
RE: Range using single-mode SFPs across multi-mode fiber
The max limit for 100 base FX (100 Mbps Ethernet) is around 6600 feet. Many campus ductbank systems built in the 1990s when 10 and 100 Mbps Ethernet were the commodity speeds (before GiGE) used 62.5/125 MM fiber to connect buildings. It is not unusual to see long MM runs on campus facilities where 100 Mbps backbones once were the fastest speeds available. In those days, apart from longhaul telco use, singlemode fiber was usually only run for closed circuit TV (CCTV) use in the campus environment, and in places where 1990s SM was run for CCTV it can still be used for longhaul laser sfps, which to me shows that SM is future proof. SM even makes sense in short runs as attenuators can be placed on the send/receive strands to reduce the dB so the optical receiver is not saturated. -Original Message- From: Justin M. Streiner [mailto:strei...@cluebyfour.org] Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 5:53 AM To: Keegan Holley Cc: nanog@nanog.org; oliver rothschild Subject: Re: Range using single-mode SFPs across multi-mode fiber On Wed, 14 Dec 2011, Keegan Holley wrote: 2011/12/14 oliver rothschild orothsch...@gmail.com How did you end up with a MM run this long? SX optics are only rated at 500 meters at best. Even with mode conditioning jumpers more the 1km is a risk. I'm glad it held up during testing though. Just out of curiosity did you purchase dark from a provider? Is it inside of a building? Legacy 10baseFL/100baseFX/FDDI can run fairly long distances over OM1. In the past I've run 100baseFX over OM1 runs with multiple cross-connects, out to about 2 km. jms This communication, together with any attachments or embedded links, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain information that is confidential or legally protected. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, disclosure, copying, dissemination, distribution or use of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail message and delete the original and all copies of the communication, along with any attachments or embedded links, from your system.
Range using single-mode SFPs across multi-mode fiber - was Re: NANOG Digest, Vol 47, Issue 56
On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 2:34 PM, oliver rothschild orothsch...@gmail.com wrote: This is my first e-mail to the list and I hope it is not entirely As a suggestion, could you please in the future not use a subject such as Re: NANOG Digest, Vol 47, Issue 56 for posts. It is MUCH better to use a topical subject line (see my suggestion above); that helps people who filter their mail keep track of threads and topics. Regards Marshall inappropriate. We are attempting to use Juniper single-mode SFPs (LX variety) across multi-mode fiber. Standard listed distance is always for SFPs using the appropriate type of fiber. Does anyone out there know how much distance we are likely to get? Thanks for your help in advance. On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 2:07 PM, nanog-requ...@nanog.org wrote: Send NANOG mailing list submissions to nanog@nanog.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://mailman.nanog.org/mailman/listinfo/nanog or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to nanog-requ...@nanog.org You can reach the person managing the list at nanog-ow...@nanog.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of NANOG digest... Today's Topics: 1. Re: EFF call for signatures from Internet engineers against censorship (Suresh Ramasubramanian) 2. RE: EFF call for signatures from Internet engineers against censorship (O'Reirdan, Michael) 3. Recognized Address Transfer Facilitators (was: Your Christmas Bonus Has Arrived) (John Curran) 4. Re: Recognized Address Transfer Facilitators (was: Your Christmas Bonus Has Arrived) (Leigh Porter) 5. Re: EFF call for signatures from Internet engineers against censorship (Suresh Ramasubramanian) 6. Re: Your Christmas Bonus Has Arrived (bmann...@vacation.karoshi.com) 7. Re: Recognized Address Transfer Facilitators (was: Your Christmas Bonus Has Arrived) (Justin M. Streiner) 8. Re: Recognized Address Transfer Facilitators (was: Your Christmas Bonus Has Arrived) (Mark Tinka) 9. Multiple ISP Load Balancing (Holmes,David A) -- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 15:42:51 +0530 From: Suresh Ramasubramanian ops.li...@gmail.com To: Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: EFF call for signatures from Internet engineers against censorship Message-ID: caarzuouqu2sivngce-3ipe-awsq7v7n1h4wwqoxzxsp8hxy...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I would strongly suggest that operators work with their legal departments to endorse this paper by Crocker and others. If other ISP organizations (such as say MAAWG) come out with something, other operators could sign on to that as well. The EFF petition has way too much propaganda and far less content than would be entirely productive in a policy discussion. --srs On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 12:51 PM, Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net wrote: ?Security and Other Technical Concerns Raised by the ? ?DNS Filtering Requirements in the PROTECT IP Bill ?Authors: ? ?Steve Crocker, Shinkuro, Inc. ? ?David Dagon, Georgia Tech ? ?Dan Kaminsky, DKH ? ?Danny McPherson, Verisign, Inc. ? ?Paul Vixie, Internet Systems Consortium -- Suresh Ramasubramanian (ops.li...@gmail.com) -- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 11:36:59 + From: O'Reirdan, Michael michael_oreir...@cable.comcast.com To: Suresh Ramasubramanian ops.li...@gmail.com, Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net Cc: nanog@nanog.org nanog@nanog.org Subject: RE: EFF call for signatures from Internet engineers against censorship Message-ID: b13238ab0cb1514b9509deee5f98f2e00de39...@pacdcexmb13.cable.comcast.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MAAWG has written voicing its concerns on SOPA and PIPA. http://www.maawg.org/sites/maawg/files/news/MAAWG_US_Congress_S968-HR3261_Comments_2011-12.pdf Mike From: Suresh Ramasubramanian [ops.li...@gmail.com] Sent: 14 December 2011 05:12 To: Hal Murray Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: EFF call for signatures from Internet engineers against censorship I would strongly suggest that operators work with their legal departments to endorse this paper by Crocker and others. If other ISP organizations (such as say MAAWG) come out with something, other operators could sign on to that as well. The EFF petition has way too much propaganda and far less content than would be entirely productive in a policy discussion. --srs On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 12:51 PM, Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net wrote: Security and Other Technical Concerns Raised by the DNS Filtering Requirements in the PROTECT IP Bill Authors: Steve Crocker, Shinkuro, Inc. David Dagon, Georgia Tech Dan Kaminsky,
Re: Range using single-mode SFPs across multi-mode fiber - was Re: NANOG Digest, Vol 47, Issue 56
inappropriate. We are attempting to use Juniper single-mode SFPs (LX variety) across multi-mode fiber. Standard listed distance is always for SFPs using the appropriate type of fiber. Does anyone out there know how much distance we are likely to get? Thanks for your help in advance. Single mode just has a smaller core size for the smaller beam emitted by laser vs. LED. it works although I've never done it outside of a lab (MM is cheaper). As for the distance it theory that should come down to the optics and your transmit power. Hopefully this is just a cable connecting the router to a long line. I've never heard of a 10K MM fiber run since SX optics can't shoot that far. You should be able to get through the 500m or so that MM optics are rated for, but YMMV (errors, light levels, bounces, etc etc)
Re: Range using single-mode SFPs across multi-mode fiber
On 12/14/2011 3:37 PM, Keegan Holley wrote: Single mode just has a smaller core size for the smaller beam emitted by laser vs. LED. it works although I've never done it outside of a lab (MM is cheaper). As for the distance it theory that should come down to the optics and your transmit power. Hopefully this is just a cable connecting the router to a long line. I've never heard of a 10K MM fiber run since SX optics can't shoot that far. You should be able to get through the 500m or so that MM optics are rated for, but YMMV (errors, light levels, bounces, etc etc) Cisco gives specs for SFP LX over MM (they aren't that great at gig, and really suck at 10G; if you have 50u OM3/OM4 you can do much better at 10G). See SFP/fiber/distance table at http://www.cisco.com/en/US/prod/collateral/modules/ps5455/ps6577/product_data_sheet0900aecd8033f885.html We have run LX-over-MM (62.5) on short building runs as a band-aid until SM is available, and trying to do all new building MM with 50u OM3/OM4. We do have some dependence on 62.5u MM - used by our aging Simplex alarm system - which does point-to-point looped token ring *cough* on the alarm side. I'm trying to get them to confirm 50u will work point-to-point, but at some non-alarm-points there would be a necessary 50-to-62.5 exchange taking place and I'm not certain how to accomplish that (50-62.5 would likely have tolerable loss, but not 62.5-50). (I would suspect similar results cross-vendor but YMMV) Jeff
Re: Range using single-mode SFPs across multi-mode fiber - was Re: NANOG Digest, Vol 47, Issue 56
On Wed, 14 Dec 2011, Keegan Holley wrote: inappropriate. We are attempting to use Juniper single-mode SFPs (LX variety) across multi-mode fiber. Standard listed distance is always for SFPs using the appropriate type of fiber. Does anyone out there know how much distance we are likely to get? Thanks for your help in advance. Single mode just has a smaller core size for the smaller beam emitted by laser vs. LED. it works although I've never done it outside of a lab (MM is cheaper). As for the distance it theory that should come down to the optics and your transmit power. Hopefully this is just a cable connecting the router to a long line. I've never heard of a 10K MM fiber run since SX optics can't shoot that far. You should be able to get through the 500m or so that MM optics are rated for, but YMMV (errors, light levels, bounces, etc etc) In a nutshell, don't do it if at all possible. This issue gets significantly worse at 10G. If there's any way to get SMF in place for this link, do it. In practice, you will likely get something less than the rated distance, particularly if the MM fiber in question is an older type, such as OM1. If you're using OM1, mode-conditioning jumpers at both ends are pretty much a must. The problems with shooting an LX/LH beam over MMF are threefold: 1. Attenuation on some flavors of MMF can be significantly higher than an equivalent run of SMF. 2. Modal dispersion on MMF will scatter and distort the LX beam, likely resulting in link errors because the receiver can't recover the data correctly. 3. Shooting a 9 micron beam into a 50 (or worse, 62.5) micron core, and getting enough of the beam to reach the 9 micron target at the other end to result in a recoverable signal is problematic. jms
Re: Range using single-mode SFPs across multi-mode fiber - was Re: NANOG Digest, Vol 47, Issue 56
2011/12/14 Justin M. Streiner strei...@cluebyfour.org On Wed, 14 Dec 2011, Keegan Holley wrote: inappropriate. We are attempting to use Juniper single-mode SFPs (LX variety) across multi-mode fiber. Standard listed distance is always for SFPs using the appropriate type of fiber. Does anyone out there know how much distance we are likely to get? Thanks for your help in advance. Single mode just has a smaller core size for the smaller beam emitted by laser vs. LED. it works although I've never done it outside of a lab (MM is cheaper). As for the distance it theory that should come down to the optics and your transmit power. Hopefully this is just a cable connecting the router to a long line. I've never heard of a 10K MM fiber run since SX optics can't shoot that far. You should be able to get through the 500m or so that MM optics are rated for, but YMMV (errors, light levels, bounces, etc etc) In a nutshell, don't do it if at all possible. This issue gets significantly worse at 10G. If there's any way to get SMF in place for this link, do it. +1 probably should have added that. I guess I just assumed. In practice, you will likely get something less than the rated distance, particularly if the MM fiber in question is an older type, such as OM1. If you're using OM1, mode-conditioning jumpers at both ends are pretty much a must. The problems with shooting an LX/LH beam over MMF are threefold: 1. Attenuation on some flavors of MMF can be significantly higher than an equivalent run of SMF. +1 Assumed again.. 2. Modal dispersion on MMF will scatter and distort the LX beam, likely resulting in link errors because the receiver can't recover the data correctly. Not that I'm advocating this, but it's fine over short distances. I did this for a few lab routers where I wasn't concerned with link quality, but I was able to fill a 10G pipe with no errors/retransmit over about 10M. 3. Shooting a 9 micron beam into a 50 (or worse, 62.5) micron core, and getting enough of the beam to reach the 9 micron target at the other end to result in a recoverable signal is problematic. Again for short distances it's doable. I agree not to even try over 62.5 though.
Re: Range using single-mode SFPs across multi-mode fiber - was Re: NANOG Digest, Vol 47, Issue 56
On 15/12/11 09:54, Justin M. Streiner wrote: On Wed, 14 Dec 2011, Keegan Holley wrote: inappropriate. We are attempting to use Juniper single-mode SFPs (LX variety) across multi-mode fiber. Standard listed distance is always for SFPs using the appropriate type of fiber. Does anyone out there know how much distance we are likely to get? Thanks for your help in advance. Single mode just has a smaller core size for the smaller beam emitted by laser vs. LED. it works although I've never done it outside of a lab (MM is cheaper). As for the distance it theory that should come down to the optics and your transmit power. Hopefully this is just a cable connecting the router to a long line. I've never heard of a 10K MM fiber run since SX optics can't shoot that far. You should be able to get through the 500m or so that MM optics are rated for, but YMMV (errors, light levels, bounces, etc etc) In a nutshell, don't do it if at all possible. This issue gets significantly worse at 10G. If there's any way to get SMF in place for this link, do it. In practice, you will likely get something less than the rated distance, particularly if the MM fiber in question is an older type, such as OM1. If you're using OM1, mode-conditioning jumpers at both ends are pretty much a must. I sense confusion in the above. - LX drivers on MM fibre can work with Mode-Conditioning patch leads and can give you significant distance wins, particularly if you're using legacy OM1 Fibre. - SX drivers on SM fibre is not something i've ever seen done, I can't imagine why you'd do it - even if SX drivers are cheaper. The problems with shooting an LX/LH beam over MMF are threefold: 1. Attenuation on some flavors of MMF can be significantly higher than an equivalent run of SMF. 2. Modal dispersion on MMF will scatter and distort the LX beam, likely resulting in link errors because the receiver can't recover the data correctly. 3. Shooting a 9 micron beam into a 50 (or worse, 62.5) micron core, and getting enough of the beam to reach the 9 micron target at the other end to result in a recoverable signal is problematic. If you're not pushing your distance too far it'll probably be fine, to be honest. Back in the day when I was working on large legacy campus fibre runs, 220 metres was the max distance we considered OK for SX drivers and OM1 fibre (for gig ethernet). Mode conditioning leads would push this out to say, 900m trustworthy. If your distance is 900m I would suggest a fibre upgrade is on the cards. Again, the above all assumes mode-conditioning in use. If you're not mode-conditioning your effective range is going to be very short - to the point of unusability - and I'd be concerned about the affects of 'overdriving' fibre that is not set up for the use of low powered lasers and was instead optimised for LEDs, which obviously put out a lot less power. Mark.
Re: Range using single-mode SFPs across multi-mode fiber
2011/12/14 Jeff Kell jeff-k...@utc.edu On 12/14/2011 3:37 PM, Keegan Holley wrote: Single mode just has a smaller core size for the smaller beam emitted by laser vs. LED. it works although I've never done it outside of a lab (MM is cheaper). As for the distance it theory that should come down to the optics and your transmit power. Hopefully this is just a cable connecting the router to a long line. I've never heard of a 10K MM fiber run since SX optics can't shoot that far. You should be able to get through the 500m or so that MM optics are rated for, but YMMV (errors, light levels, bounces, etc etc) Cisco gives specs for SFP LX over MM (they aren't that great at gig, and really suck at 10G; if you have 50u OM3/OM4 you can do much better at 10G). See SFP/fiber/distance table at http://www.cisco.com/en/US/prod/collateral/modules/ps5455/ps6577/product_data_sheet0900aecd8033f885.html They specify that line conditioning cables were used. I would say if you're going to bother purchasing why not purchase SM? We have run LX-over-MM (62.5) on short building runs as a band-aid until SM is available, and trying to do all new building MM with 50u OM3/OM4. We do have some dependence on 62.5u MM - used by our aging Simplex alarm system - which does point-to-point looped token ring *cough* on the alarm side. What distances? I'm trying to get them to confirm 50u will work point-to-point, but at some non-alarm-points there would be a necessary 50-to-62.5 exchange taking place and I'm not certain how to accomplish that (50-62.5 would likely have tolerable loss, but not 62.5-50). I don't think changing core sizes in the middle would work even with SM optics.
Range using single-mode SFPs across multi-mode fiber
Thanks to all who responded to my clumsy first question (both on matters of etiquette and technology). The group I work with (we are a small project acting as a last mile provider) was in the midst of deploying this solution when I posed the question. We put the single mode Juniper SFPs (LX) on to a run of approximately 1670 meters. We successfully established a 1G ethernet connection. Testing to date has been meager, but shows that the link is viable. Under significant load there is some minor packet loss. Since the link far exceeds the amount of data it required, we have decided to continue using it. Interestingly neither interface showed any physical errors. v/r, Oliver Rothschild Network Engineer III
Re: Range using single-mode SFPs across multi-mode fiber
On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 10:02:58PM -0500, oliver rothschild wrote: Thanks to all who responded to my clumsy first question (both on matters of etiquette and technology). The group I work with (we are a small project acting as a last mile provider) was in the midst of deploying this solution when I posed the question. We put the single mode Juniper SFPs (LX) on to a run of approximately 1670 meters. We successfully established a 1G ethernet connection. Testing to date has been meager, but shows that the link is viable. Under significant load there is some minor packet loss. Since the link far exceeds the amount of data it required, we have decided to continue using it. Interestingly neither interface showed any physical errors. Technically you should be using offset-launch mode conditioning patch cords at each end when running LX over multimode fiber. I had been lucky with not using them for many years on 62.5/125 (OM1) multimode (and just started doing so again, albiet only for OOB/non-production traffic use). I believe my longest link was/is around 1 km. http://www.cisco.com/en/US/prod/collateral/modules/ps5455/white_paper_c11-463677.html
Re: Range using single-mode SFPs across multi-mode fiber
2011/12/14 oliver rothschild orothsch...@gmail.com Thanks to all who responded to my clumsy first question (both on matters of etiquette and technology). The group I work with (we are a small project acting as a last mile provider) was in the midst of deploying this solution when I posed the question. We put the single mode Juniper SFPs (LX) on to a run of approximately 1670 meters. How did you end up with a MM run this long? SX optics are only rated at 500 meters at best. Even with mode conditioning jumpers more the 1km is a risk. I'm glad it held up during testing though. Just out of curiosity did you purchase dark from a provider? Is it inside of a building?
Re: Range using single-mode SFPs across multi-mode fiber
On 15/12/11 16:38, Keegan Holley wrote: 2011/12/14 oliver rothschild orothsch...@gmail.com Thanks to all who responded to my clumsy first question (both on matters of etiquette and technology). The group I work with (we are a small project acting as a last mile provider) was in the midst of deploying this solution when I posed the question. We put the single mode Juniper SFPs (LX) on to a run of approximately 1670 meters. How did you end up with a MM run this long? SX optics are only rated at 500 meters at best. Even with mode conditioning jumpers more the 1km is a risk. I'm glad it held up during testing though. Just out of curiosity did you purchase dark from a provider? Is it inside of a building? Um.. check that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-mode_optical_fiber Typical transmission speed and distance limits are 100 Mbit/s for distances up to 2 km (100BASE-FX https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100BASE-FX), 1 Gbit/s to 220--550 m (1000BASE-SX https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1000BASE-SX), and 10 Gbit/s to 300 m (10GBASE-SR https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10_Gigabit_Ethernet#10GBASE-SR). The old OM1 installations I used to work on started out as 10Mbit hubbed ethernet links and on the odd occasion would run out to close to 2km within a campus. They were progressively upgraded with the flow of: 10FX on 3Com Linkbuilder Kit 100FX on 3Com Corebuilder Kit and Allied Telesyn 100FX Media converters 1000SX on a variety of 3Com, Nortel and Cisco kit out to ~220m 1000LX via Mode-Conditioning out to ~900-1000m. The OM1 only got retired when the distance was 900m or there was budget to put new fibre on the run, in which case we ran SMF and rigged LX drivers. Mark.
Re: Range using single-mode SFPs across multi-mode fiber
On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 10:38:47PM -0500, Keegan Holley wrote: 2011/12/14 oliver rothschild orothsch...@gmail.com Thanks to all who responded to my clumsy first question (both on matters of etiquette and technology). The group I work with (we are a small project acting as a last mile provider) was in the midst of deploying this solution when I posed the question. We put the single mode Juniper SFPs (LX) on to a run of approximately 1670 meters. How did you end up with a MM run this long? SX optics are only rated at 500 meters at best. Even with mode conditioning jumpers more the 1km is a risk. I'm glad it held up during testing though. Just out of curiosity did you purchase dark from a provider? Is it inside of a building? In my case, it was installed for compatibility with FDDI, and used mostly for 10BASE-FL and 100BASE-FX, which work up to 1 or 2km, until we started using it for 1000BASE-LX.
Re: Range using single-mode SFPs across multi-mode fiber
I stand corrected, but I haven't dealt much with 100BASE-FX. I was just talking in terms of 1G/10G. 2011/12/14 Mark Foster blak...@blakjak.net On 15/12/11 16:38, Keegan Holley wrote: 2011/12/14 oliver rothschild orothsch...@gmail.com orothsch...@gmail.com Thanks to all who responded to my clumsy first question (both on matters of etiquette and technology). The group I work with (we are a small project acting as a last mile provider) was in the midst of deploying this solution when I posed the question. We put the single mode Juniper SFPs (LX) on to a run of approximately 1670 meters. How did you end up with a MM run this long? SX optics are only rated at 500 meters at best. Even with mode conditioning jumpers more the 1km is a risk. I'm glad it held up during testing though. Just out of curiosity did you purchase dark from a provider? Is it inside of a building? Um.. check that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-mode_optical_fiber Typical transmission speed and distance limits are 100 Mbit/s for distances up to 2 km (100BASE-FXhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100BASE-FX), 1 Gbit/s to 220–550 m (1000BASE-SXhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1000BASE-SX), and 10 Gbit/s to 300 m (10GBASE-SRhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10_Gigabit_Ethernet#10GBASE-SR ). The old OM1 installations I used to work on started out as 10Mbit hubbed ethernet links and on the odd occasion would run out to close to 2km within a campus. They were progressively upgraded with the flow of: 10FX on 3Com Linkbuilder Kit 100FX on 3Com Corebuilder Kit and Allied Telesyn 100FX Media converters 1000SX on a variety of 3Com, Nortel and Cisco kit out to ~220m 1000LX via Mode-Conditioning out to ~900-1000m. The OM1 only got retired when the distance was 900m or there was budget to put new fibre on the run, in which case we ran SMF and rigged LX drivers. Mark.
