Re: IPv4 sunset date set for 2019-12-31
On Thu, 21 Oct 2010 22:09:39 -0400 Jared Mauch ja...@puck.nether.net wrote: On Oct 21, 2010, at 9:51 PM, Barry Shein wrote: Anyhow, it might be an interesting topic to discuss in the appropriate venues, IETF, What is the cost of maintaining IPv4 forever? but it's getting a little ahead of ourselves in terms of any pressing need. This is an interesting question. In talking to your vendors with your checklist of capabilities a device CAN/SHOULD/MUST have, what if you no longer needed to carry 350k/512k routes of IPv4 and only needed 256k of IPv6 ? Instead of 6pe think of 4pe with ipv6 core. I've been reminding vendors that IPv6 should get new features *first* vs IPv4. The end of IPv4 is near, but that doesn't mean the end of the Internet is here. The next chapter gets a new page turned. Maybe we will determine that IPv6 needs to go the way of IPX/Decnet/AppleTalk and some new system (non-IP even) will take over the world. Either way, it's an interesting time to be an edge operator that worries about CPE stuff. those that think mostly about core this is a big fat *yawn* imho. Expect application developers to face some interesting challenges. me? I'm waiting until I see the NOW WITH IPv6 sticker on things at the store. If you go into the right store, you'll see one. http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies.cfm?t=1470849p=5#r83 - Jared
Re: IPv4 sunset date set for 2019-12-31
On 10/21/2010 1:56 PM, Barry Shein wrote: Well, if the DNS root servers ceased IPv4 service it'd be pretty much a fait accompli as far as the public internet is concerned. Given the reality of fragmenting the DNS -- including its root -- that's an action that well might backfire. Current fragmentation is constrained; this could plausibly motivate more people to pursue other paths and thereby blow things up. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net
Re: IPv4 sunset date set for 2019-12-31
Dave CROCKER wrote: On 10/21/2010 1:56 PM, Barry Shein wrote: Well, if the DNS root servers ceased IPv4 service it'd be pretty much a fait accompli as far as the public internet is concerned. Given the reality of fragmenting the DNS -- including its root -- that's an action that well might backfire. Current fragmentation is constrained; this could plausibly motivate more people to pursue other paths and thereby blow things up. d/ Luckily we have already prepared the cure for that disease. Apparently DNSSEC is catching on right about now. Joe
Re: IPv4 sunset date set for 2019-12-31
On October 22, 2010 at 08:48 d...@dcrocker.net (Dave CROCKER) wrote: On 10/21/2010 1:56 PM, Barry Shein wrote: Well, if the DNS root servers ceased IPv4 service it'd be pretty much a fait accompli as far as the public internet is concerned. Given the reality of fragmenting the DNS -- including its root -- that's an action that well might backfire. Current fragmentation is constrained; this could plausibly motivate more people to pursue other paths and thereby blow things up. I wouldn't suggest doing it without A LOT of coordination with stakeholders. While we're on the subject, someone else suggested that one source of authority would be the Tier-1 vendors, the other would be governments. Tying the two sub-threads together I believe there's sufficient authority vested in the DNS management and RIRs to accomplish a transition to an, effectively, all-IPv6 internet without either of the above leading tho they would have to follow of course. -- -Barry Shein The World | b...@theworld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 800-THE-WRLD| Dial-Up: US, PR, Canada Software Tool Die| Public Access Internet | SINCE 1989 *oo*
Re: IPv4 sunset date set for 2019-12-31
On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 10:59:38AM -0700, Majdi S. Abbas wrote: On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 10:52:19AM -0700, Dave CROCKER wrote: But you aren't. No one is. The core requirement for such announcements is that there be a real enforcement arm. If a couple of large carriers set their own flag dates, and turn off v4 at that point, it will be effectively enforced. Plenty of people aren't particularly 'local' pockets of control. They would be out of business the day they turn IPv4 off. So it will not happen. You don't need an enforcement arm -- it just needs to stop making economic sense to support two parallel networks. Since it's automatically wasteful, once enough of the traffic is v6, that may come sooner than you realize. I doubt it. Or, just start charging an arm and a leg for v4 transit until people take the hint... and change the ISP. Before you can even start to think about moving away from v4 you need to ensure that everybody is reachable via v6. The problem is that the key organizations try everything to make this not happen. -- :wq Claudio
Re: IPv4 sunset date set for 2019-12-31
Justin M. Streiner strei...@cluebyfour.org wrote on 10/21/2010 01:58:46 PM: My next question would be How many times will that get extended/pushed back because somebody screams loudly enough?. It will probably sunset around the time that v6 starts to run out of gas and people start thinking about IPv8 ... Oooh. Did someone say IPv8? http://mailman.apnic.net/mailing-lists/apnic-talk/archive/1998/02/msg00030.html Joe
RE: IPv4 sunset date set for 2019-12-31
They would be out of business the day they turn IPv4 off. So it will not happen. IMO, this will not be a decision made by ICANN or a network provider. This will be made by a platform/OS company. Basically, once IPv6 is presumed ubiquitous (it doesn't have to be actually ubiquitous) -- just if you can't reach something by IPv6 you assume it's the far-side's problem -- IPv4 becomes a relic from a business point-of-view, because anyone who doesn't support it is not presumed to be at fault. Microsoft, Apple, or gee-whiz-new-gadget guy simply has to come out with the next revision of their killer product that has dropped support for it. Many may complain, but with those that have sufficient market power to not see a significant affect (and can justify retasking their internal development resources who no longer have to regression test IPv4 stuff against any perceived customer loss) will do it -- they'll probably call it an upgrade. It's been done before. It'll happen again. This doesn't mean IPv4 will disappear. Just like the 20+ year old machines that are still on the net via IPv4 - legacy protocol gateways, pockets of IPv4 may exist for decades via similar devices -- but at that point, we just dismiss those guys as crackpots. Anyone have an IPv6 coke machine yet? Deepak
Re: IPv4 sunset date set for 2019-12-31
Well, if the DNS root servers ceased IPv4 service it'd be pretty much a fait accompli as far as the public internet is concerned. And, of course, the RIRs could just cancel all the IPv4 route announcements, whatever they do if someone doesn't pay or whatever. I'm not sure why any would do that since both versions of the protocol can exist on the same wire. -- -Barry Shein The World | b...@theworld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 800-THE-WRLD| Dial-Up: US, PR, Canada Software Tool Die| Public Access Internet | SINCE 1989 *oo*
Re: IPv4 sunset date set for 2019-12-31
How would you respond if that were announced? If I were king for a day, But you aren't. No one is. The core requirement for such announcements is that there be a real enforcement arm. Not necessarily. If you announce that YOU will treat that date as a sunset date for IPv4 and invite other organizations to sign up for the declaration, you might be able to get a movement going. Alice's Restaurant comes to mind as does the Cluetrain Manifesto. The best that can be done with respect to declaring a IPv4 sunset date is localized pockets of such control. One could, of course, imagine a federation of such pockets... That is too top down, and sounds too much like the ITU, a federation of governments. I don't think that would work but a voluntary manifesto that people could sign up to would work. --Michael Dillon
Re: IPv4 sunset date set for 2019-12-31
Putting a sunset clause will happen but when it won't matter much. We are not there yet. However, I could see it also coming from a vendor as a way to get customers to upgrade (after that date we will not support IPv4 anymore and provide patches for IPv4). - Original Message - From: Michael Dillon wavetos...@googlemail.com To: NANOG nanog@nanog.org Sent: Friday, 22 October, 2010 9:24:57 AM Subject: Re: IPv4 sunset date set for 2019-12-31 How would you respond if that were announced? If I were king for a day, But you aren't. No one is. The core requirement for such announcements is that there be a real enforcement arm. Not necessarily. If you announce that YOU will treat that date as a sunset date for IPv4 and invite other organizations to sign up for the declaration, you might be able to get a movement going. Alice's Restaurant comes to mind as does the Cluetrain Manifesto. The best that can be done with respect to declaring a IPv4 sunset date is localized pockets of such control. One could, of course, imagine a federation of such pockets... That is too top down, and sounds too much like the ITU, a federation of governments. I don't think that would work but a voluntary manifesto that people could sign up to would work. --Michael Dillon
Re: IPv4 sunset date set for 2019-12-31
This doesn't mean IPv4 will disappear. Just like the 20+ year old machines that are still on the net via IPv4 - legacy protocol gateways, pockets of IPv4 may exist for decades via similar devices -- but at that point, we just dismiss those guys as crackpots. Maybe not quite crackpots, but you are right that a sunset date is really a marketing device, and if done as a manifesto, would gain a lot of publicity. If the manifesto has a clause that allows a signatory to keep running IPv4 for specialist purposes that are not core to the public Internet, then what will happen is that the public will force the sunset to happen. But behind the scenes people will still be using it just as they are still running X.25 networks today, out of the glare of the public eye. For this to work you need a team of sensible people to put some effort into crafting a workable manifesto that network operators would actually be willing to sign. 2019 seems like a date the people could actually commit to, in fact even 2016 may be workable and is perhaps desirable because it will be within the planning horizon of a lot of folks starting next year. --Michael Dillon
Re: IPv4 sunset date set for 2019-12-31
* b...@world.std.com (Barry Shein) [Thu 21 Oct 2010, 22:59 CEST]: And, of course, the RIRs could just cancel all the IPv4 route announcements, whatever they do if someone doesn't pay or whatever. I think you're mistaking the default-free zone for Usenet. The DFZ doesn't have 'cmsg cancel' messages. -- Niels. -- It's amazing what people will do to get their name on the internet, which is odd, because all you really need is a Blogspot account. -- roy edroso, alicublog.blogspot.com
Re: IPv4 sunset date set for 2019-12-31
On Oct 21, 2010, at 10:58 AM, Justin M. Streiner wrote: On Thu, 21 Oct 2010, Jared Mauch wrote: How would you respond if that were announced? Carriers have been doing technology transitions for years. Cidr to classless. Amps to CDMA or gsm... This is not new. My next question would be How many times will that get extended/pushed back because somebody screams loudly enough?. It will probably sunset around the time that v6 starts to run out of gas and people start thinking about IPv8 (assuming IPv7 would be treated like odd-numbered Linux kernel releases like 2.3.x, 2.5.x, etc - never to see the light of day) :) jms I'll point out that the FCC sort of tried that with the NTSC-ATSC move. Finally the broadcasters said Screw that... You can tell us when we have to turn on ATSC, but, you can't actually prevent us from turning off NTSC. Click! Owen
Re: IPv4 sunset date set for 2019-12-31
On 10/21/2010 7:53 PM, Niels Bakker wrote: * b...@world.std.com (Barry Shein) [Thu 21 Oct 2010, 22:59 CEST]: And, of course, the RIRs could just cancel all the IPv4 route announcements, whatever they do if someone doesn't pay or whatever. I think you're mistaking the default-free zone for Usenet. The DFZ doesn't have 'cmsg cancel' messages. The whatever they do if someone doesn't pay is a nightmare. I suspect such a recourse wouldn't work for stopping IPv4. Jack
Re: IPv4 sunset date set for 2019-12-31
On October 21, 2010 at 20:13 jba...@brightok.net (Jack Bates) wrote: On 10/21/2010 7:53 PM, Niels Bakker wrote: * b...@world.std.com (Barry Shein) [Thu 21 Oct 2010, 22:59 CEST]: And, of course, the RIRs could just cancel all the IPv4 route announcements, whatever they do if someone doesn't pay or whatever. I think you're mistaking the default-free zone for Usenet. The DFZ doesn't have 'cmsg cancel' messages. The whatever they do if someone doesn't pay is a nightmare. I suspect such a recourse wouldn't work for stopping IPv4. Well, along with no more IPv4 DNS and it'd be pretty effective (I suggested both for a reason.) The idea isn't to make it impossible to run an ipv4 connection, tho at some point it'd have to be encapsulated in IPv6 to get routed across the public infrastructure, the idea is to declare it dead and stop expending (shared) resources on it. I guess I just answered my own question: Why bother? So we can stop expending resources on IPv4 like managing address space allocations, route announcements, firefighting, DNS, all the wonky this inside that encapsulation schemes, etc. I'd let folks like the RIRs and DNS root managers speak to how much of a win that would be tho it would affect others, particularly the firefighting part. If IPv4 is maintained forever then one presumes it works reasonably well forever and that's kinda why everyone here is here, no? Anyhow, it might be an interesting topic to discuss in the appropriate venues, IETF, What is the cost of maintaining IPv4 forever? but it's getting a little ahead of ourselves in terms of any pressing need. So...it wasn't a dumb question to raise, just perhaps a bit premature. -- -Barry Shein The World | b...@theworld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 800-THE-WRLD| Dial-Up: US, PR, Canada Software Tool Die| Public Access Internet | SINCE 1989 *oo*
Re: IPv4 sunset date set for 2019-12-31
On 10/21/2010 9:09 PM, Jared Mauch wrote: Either way, it's an interesting time to be an edge operator that worries about CPE stuff. those that think mostly about core this is a big fat *yawn* imho. Expect application developers to face some interesting challenges. me? I'm waiting until I see the NOW WITH IPv6 sticker on things at the store. 1. Core routing/BGP check 2. Servers check 3. load balancers? oops, semi-check 4. edge check 5. Telco maintained CPE check (There's a reason we didn't do pppoe), for others, fail 6. Customer provided CPE/routers/etc fail It took off the shelf CPEs some time to get it right at autodetecting and handling the numerous Provider Edge setups. v6 actually adds a whole new arsenal of setups that can exist at the Provider Edge. People are crazy if they think the provider will adjust to a billion different setups. The cheap routers have a long ways to go to support this new variety of setups. I'm personally partial to DHCPv6 TA addressing (SLAAC at provider edge is cool, but there are too many issues with it, especially when trying to track users) with 86400 preferred and 172800 valid and NAK the renewal, combined with DHCPv6-PD with 86400 preferred and 172800 valid and NAK the renewal. This gives a 24 hour prefix rotation for new connections and a 24 hour hold time for old connections. Combined with privacy extensions, it should pollute geo IP databases with horribly wrong information and make it more difficult for certain types of malicious network attacks. :) Jack
