Re: Small guys with BGP issues
Richard A Steenbergen wrote: On Sun, Nov 01, 2009 at 11:54:07PM -0500, Steve Bertrand wrote: I'm not a political person. Take it for what it is worth. What is the issue here, that your DSL provider won't speak BGP with you no matter how many times you've asked, so you're complaining to NANOG about it because you don't have the ability or authority to change providers? Please correct me if I'm reading this wrong, but the emails so far haven't been very clear and this isn't making a lot of sense. Any small ISP's that I may have the privilege to be involved with should have no issues running BGP with a DSL customer if thats what was needed to properly achieve their objectives. I would even do it over a GRE tunnel. BGP is a tool, not a measuring stick. Of course that would have more to do with insistence and effort to bring the overall network to the state where it is practical and non dangerous, some hodge-podges just are not conducive. You can attach a DSL line to any piece of complex gear, it just takes using a bridge. I have attached them to the full range of cisco "small" gear (among others), from 1600 - 7200. They all have ethernet ports and pppoe dialers. They can come up to speeds of 15/1. You can terminate multiples. You can use them in conjunction with faster lines. This kind of flexibility is exactly why small ISP's exist. Bring on the inflexibility! It is lifeblood for the small players and that is what competition is all about. We can always learn something of value from each other. I completely respect that those who work with larger networks as a matter of course have talents and skills other may not have been able to develop and hone and I believe the reverse is true as well. I have seen a welcoming and fairly level playing ground at NANOG, both at meetings and on this list. I suspect most consider whining and responding smackdowns to be distasteful and I would appreciate encouraging anyone with the temptation to do so to please reconsider and spare everyone. Save your draft, drink your coffee and re-read it before sending. Joe
Re: Small guys with BGP issues
Steve Bertrand wrote: I'm venting. I'm allowed to vent here. I think I'm qualified to do so Sorry, this is not facebook. You're not allowed to randomly splurt inane and unexplaned rants and complaints. At the very least it makes you look stupid to your peers, and at worst it will harm your future employement prospects with anyone on the list. Think before you email. adam.
Re: Small guys with BGP issues
Friends don't let friends drink and reply-all. I'm just sayin. -j --Original Message-- From: Richard A Steenbergen To: Steve Bertrand Cc: NANOG list Subject: Re: Small guys with BGP issues Sent: Nov 1, 2009 11:07 PM On Sun, Nov 01, 2009 at 11:54:07PM -0500, Steve Bertrand wrote: > I'm not a political person. Take it for what it is worth. > > I personally know people who do both: > > - practice but not preach > - preach but don't practice > > ... however you take my point, I don't care. > > I just wanted it to be known that the 'guys' who do practice it should > 'God willing' come out and preach it. > > > And this is not the big boy list. This is for all Operators in North > > America, and many who are not, regardless of size. (Well, I guess we'll > > exclude the guy who buys are cable/DSL link and "provides" to his mother > > & father with a LinkSys.) > > eh, -stevieb has much respect for all those who read this list, and when > he posts, feels that the big guys are looking down upon him... hopefully > with approval. Ok so, without getting into debates over being political, practicing vs preaching, BCP38, or big guys vs little guys, can you please explain in clear english what in the name of holy hell you're talking about? What is the issue here, that your DSL provider won't speak BGP with you no matter how many times you've asked, so you're complaining to NANOG about it because you don't have the ability or authority to change providers? Please correct me if I'm reading this wrong, but the emails so far haven't been very clear and this isn't making a lot of sense. -- Richard A Steenbergenhttp://www.e-gerbil.net/ras GPG Key ID: 0xF8B12CBC (7535 7F59 8204 ED1F CC1C 53AF 4C41 5ECA F8B1 2CBC)
Re: Small guys with BGP issues
On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 1:16 AM, Steve Bertrand wrote: > - space in Torix TorIX is not a place, its actually two switches that form an Internet exchange. Perhaps you meant 151 Front Street? Do you have your own suite? Whose suite are you in? > I'm venting. I'm allowed to vent here. I think I'm qualified to do so. Yes, according to www.ibctech.ca, you advertise that you are "Sage" level IPv6 qualified individual from Hurricane Electric. If you only had mentioned that first, no one would have replied to you with such elementary questions. That aside, I think you should have started your thread with explaining the problem you are trying to solve, instead of ranting about big providers and the ills they cause you. If you are in "torix space" why aren't you peering at TorIX (I don't see your ASN on the list)? Out of curiosity, have you contacted anyone off the TorIX participants list to see if they would be willing to sell IP transit and peer BGP with you? If you want a better venting location, try IRC. Drive Slow (because Cobourg has slow speed limits, especially near the water)
Re: Small guys with BGP issues
On Mon, Nov 02, 2009 at 01:16:24AM -0500, Steve Bertrand wrote: > Tell me, what can you offer me? Here are my immediate purchasing > qualifications: > > - 100Mbps > - space in Torix > - optic, from Toronto, Ontario to Cobourg, Ontario (55 miles) > - gear at both ends > > We pay ~$2500 for the fibre and the bandwidth. Get me a deal. I am not > the money man. I don't even want to deal with money. I can't vote with > money, as it's not mine. Believe me, if I could vote with money, I'd be > 100% HE. You said business class DSL before, now you're saying 100Mbps. There are many dozens of providers who will speak BGP with you in 151 Front, you should have absolutely no trouble finding one to buy from at attractive prices. Your best bet is to unbundle the backhaul from the transit, that way you have flexibility to buy bandwidth from who you would like without being tied to the specific network providing the backhaul. But you said "gear on both ends", which implies that you have something in Toronto already? At any rate this is completely and totally off topic for NANOG, but if you say the words "I'd like to buy 100Mbps of service with BGP in Toronto" I'm sure you'll be swarmed with offers. -- Richard A Steenbergenhttp://www.e-gerbil.net/ras GPG Key ID: 0xF8B12CBC (7535 7F59 8204 ED1F CC1C 53AF 4C41 5ECA F8B1 2CBC)
Re: Small guys with BGP issues
Adrian Chadd wrote: > On Mon, Nov 02, 2009, Richard A Steenbergen wrote: > >> If you don't like the service you're getting, vote with your money and >> buy from someone else. This is quite simply not a NANOG issue, but in >> the interests of being helpful the best advice I can give you is this: >> >> "Your request is unreasonable, and you should adjust your expectations >> that you'll ever get it from the service you are purchasing". >> >> Sorry if that's not the answer you want. :) > > Or you could look at alternatives with your provider, ie: > > "Ok, so we can't speak BGP over that particular link. May I colocate some > router with you at extra cost and connect to you via -that-, so I may then > speak BGP to you over that and then tunnel my data back to me over your > DSL network?" > > That way you don't require your ISP to speak BGP over a DSL link and all > of the headaches they may not be prepared for, and you get control over > your own network. heh, Adrian, unfortunately, it's political, out of my grasp. Thankfully, these threads should be enough to either get things moving forward, or get me fired. Either way, progress was made. I'm sick of sitting still. I want to do more. Steve
Re: Small guys with BGP issues
On Mon, Nov 02, 2009, Richard A Steenbergen wrote: > If you don't like the service you're getting, vote with your money and > buy from someone else. This is quite simply not a NANOG issue, but in > the interests of being helpful the best advice I can give you is this: > > "Your request is unreasonable, and you should adjust your expectations > that you'll ever get it from the service you are purchasing". > > Sorry if that's not the answer you want. :) Or you could look at alternatives with your provider, ie: "Ok, so we can't speak BGP over that particular link. May I colocate some router with you at extra cost and connect to you via -that-, so I may then speak BGP to you over that and then tunnel my data back to me over your DSL network?" That way you don't require your ISP to speak BGP over a DSL link and all of the headaches they may not be prepared for, and you get control over your own network. 2c, Adrian
Re: Small guys with BGP issues
Richard A Steenbergen wrote: > On Mon, Nov 02, 2009 at 12:42:51AM -0500, Steve Bertrand wrote: >> This isn't just my DSL provider, its a business class connection >> provider who also happens to provide my (hrm.. our) primary Internet >> connection. >> >> Are you going to teach me something with a clue bat, or are you going >> to beat me to death with the specifics that each prong of a fork >> carries? > > Sure, I'll give it a brief shot... Some Internet connections are simply > not designed to support customer BGP. When someone says "business class > service" over cable or DSL, typically what they're talking about is > "we'll route your calls to a slightly higher class call center", and > "we'll provide you with 5 e-mail addresses/IPs and 50MB of hosting for > your website instead of just the usual 1 email and 1 dynamic IP". > > The DSL gear may very well not be able to speak BGP to a customer at > all. Each provider gets to decide what service they do and don't want to > sell, and your provider has clearly decided they don't want to sell you > BGP. From the providers' point of view, I'm sure this makes perfect > sense. I'd love to get Comcast to speak BGP to my cable modem, but I > have absolutely no delusions that they will ever do so. There is more > than likely nothing you're going to be able to do about it, and the more > you complain about it like this the more likely they are to move you > into the "this guy is a nut and we don't want your business at all" > category. Richard, I appreciate your concern. I would have expected however that you might have understood that I wasn't asking about some resi-type connection. Yes, we are small. I would love to be in a position to say that our 100Mb connection qualifies... Regardless... > If you don't like the service you're getting, vote with your money and > buy from someone else. This is quite simply not a NANOG issue, but in > the interests of being helpful the best advice I can give you is this: > > "Your request is unreasonable, and you should adjust your expectations > that you'll ever get it from the service you are purchasing". Tell me, what can you offer me? Here are my immediate purchasing qualifications: - 100Mbps - space in Torix - optic, from Toronto, Ontario to Cobourg, Ontario (55 miles) - gear at both ends We pay ~$2500 for the fibre and the bandwidth. Get me a deal. I am not the money man. I don't even want to deal with money. I can't vote with money, as it's not mine. Believe me, if I could vote with money, I'd be 100% HE. I'm venting. I'm allowed to vent here. I think I'm qualified to do so. Even though I can't speak with $, there are those who know my determination to keep a clean network, and they may be willing to help me in the future. Steve
Re: Small guys with BGP issues
On Mon, Nov 02, 2009 at 12:42:51AM -0500, Steve Bertrand wrote: > This isn't just my DSL provider, its a business class connection > provider who also happens to provide my (hrm.. our) primary Internet > connection. > > Are you going to teach me something with a clue bat, or are you going > to beat me to death with the specifics that each prong of a fork > carries? Sure, I'll give it a brief shot... Some Internet connections are simply not designed to support customer BGP. When someone says "business class service" over cable or DSL, typically what they're talking about is "we'll route your calls to a slightly higher class call center", and "we'll provide you with 5 e-mail addresses/IPs and 50MB of hosting for your website instead of just the usual 1 email and 1 dynamic IP". The DSL gear may very well not be able to speak BGP to a customer at all. Each provider gets to decide what service they do and don't want to sell, and your provider has clearly decided they don't want to sell you BGP. From the providers' point of view, I'm sure this makes perfect sense. I'd love to get Comcast to speak BGP to my cable modem, but I have absolutely no delusions that they will ever do so. There is more than likely nothing you're going to be able to do about it, and the more you complain about it like this the more likely they are to move you into the "this guy is a nut and we don't want your business at all" category. If you don't like the service you're getting, vote with your money and buy from someone else. This is quite simply not a NANOG issue, but in the interests of being helpful the best advice I can give you is this: "Your request is unreasonable, and you should adjust your expectations that you'll ever get it from the service you are purchasing". Sorry if that's not the answer you want. :) -- Richard A Steenbergenhttp://www.e-gerbil.net/ras GPG Key ID: 0xF8B12CBC (7535 7F59 8204 ED1F CC1C 53AF 4C41 5ECA F8B1 2CBC)
Re: Small guys with BGP issues
Richard A Steenbergen wrote: > On Sun, Nov 01, 2009 at 11:54:07PM -0500, Steve Bertrand wrote: >> I'm not a political person. Take it for what it is worth. >> >> I personally know people who do both: >> >> - practice but not preach >> - preach but don't practice >> >> ... however you take my point, I don't care. >> >> I just wanted it to be known that the 'guys' who do practice it should >> 'God willing' come out and preach it. >> >>> And this is not the big boy list. This is for all Operators in North >>> America, and many who are not, regardless of size. (Well, I guess we'll >>> exclude the guy who buys are cable/DSL link and "provides" to his mother >>> & father with a LinkSys.) >> eh, -stevieb has much respect for all those who read this list, and when >> he posts, feels that the big guys are looking down upon him... hopefully >> with approval. > > Ok so, without getting into debates over being political, practicing vs > preaching, BCP38, or big guys vs little guys, can you please explain in > clear english what in the name of holy hell you're talking about? > > What is the issue here, that your DSL provider won't speak BGP with you > no matter how many times you've asked, so you're complaining to NANOG Theoretically, I'm not complaining, I'm venting. This isn't just my DSL provider, its a business class connection provider who also happens to provide my (hrm.. our) primary Internet connection. Are you going to teach me something with a clue bat, or are you going to beat me to death with the specifics that each prong of a fork carries? > Please correct me if I'm reading this wrong, but the emails > so far haven't been very clear and this isn't making a lot of sense. My apologies if I haven't been clear. What would you like me to say? If I can't 'complain' here, where do I go? I think that I've acted tactfully and responsibly. What didn't make sense? Enlighten me. Although I did come here with concerns and questions, I do have a clue bat of my own to swing in defence... Steve
Re: Small guys with BGP issues
On Sun, Nov 01, 2009 at 11:54:07PM -0500, Steve Bertrand wrote: > I'm not a political person. Take it for what it is worth. > > I personally know people who do both: > > - practice but not preach > - preach but don't practice > > ... however you take my point, I don't care. > > I just wanted it to be known that the 'guys' who do practice it should > 'God willing' come out and preach it. > > > And this is not the big boy list. This is for all Operators in North > > America, and many who are not, regardless of size. (Well, I guess we'll > > exclude the guy who buys are cable/DSL link and "provides" to his mother > > & father with a LinkSys.) > > eh, -stevieb has much respect for all those who read this list, and when > he posts, feels that the big guys are looking down upon him... hopefully > with approval. Ok so, without getting into debates over being political, practicing vs preaching, BCP38, or big guys vs little guys, can you please explain in clear english what in the name of holy hell you're talking about? What is the issue here, that your DSL provider won't speak BGP with you no matter how many times you've asked, so you're complaining to NANOG about it because you don't have the ability or authority to change providers? Please correct me if I'm reading this wrong, but the emails so far haven't been very clear and this isn't making a lot of sense. -- Richard A Steenbergenhttp://www.e-gerbil.net/ras GPG Key ID: 0xF8B12CBC (7535 7F59 8204 ED1F CC1C 53AF 4C41 5ECA F8B1 2CBC)
Re: Small guys with BGP issues
Patrick W. Gilmore wrote: >> - practice good behaviour (bcp38) and don't preach it > > Did you mean preach but don't practice it? While I appreciate everyone > who "preaches" it, I am not going to complain in the slightest at any > "big guy" who practices BCP38. Just the opposite, I'm going to praise > them whether they preach it or not. I'm not a political person. Take it for what it is worth. I personally know people who do both: - practice but not preach - preach but don't practice ... however you take my point, I don't care. I just wanted it to be known that the 'guys' who do practice it should 'God willing' come out and preach it. > And this is not the big boy list. This is for all Operators in North > America, and many who are not, regardless of size. (Well, I guess we'll > exclude the guy who buys are cable/DSL link and "provides" to his mother > & father with a LinkSys.) eh, -stevieb has much respect for all those who read this list, and when he posts, feels that the big guys are looking down upon him... hopefully with approval. Steve
Re: Small guys with BGP issues
- practice good behaviour (bcp38) and don't preach it Did you mean preach but don't practice it? While I appreciate everyone who "preaches" it, I am not going to complain in the slightest at any "big guy" who practices BCP38. Just the opposite, I'm going to praise them whether they preach it or not. And this is not the big boy list. This is for all Operators in North America, and many who are not, regardless of size. (Well, I guess we'll exclude the guy who buys are cable/DSL link and "provides" to his mother & father with a LinkSys.) -- TTFN, patrick On Nov 1, 2009, at 11:01 PM, Steve Bertrand wrote: Seems to me that some people have issues when a thread is taken over. capiche... However, it also seems to me that there are people here who are intelligent engineers who are afraid to speak, due to the size of the company they work for. On behalf of the 'small guys', it sucks when you big(ger) guys: - don't listen to us - practice good behaviour (bcp38) and don't preach it - speak proudly of decent support, but don't respond to people who aren't staffed by a tier(x) - act as though you know something, but won't get out of the textbook mentality - again, this isn't a test for ccie, just because were working in smaller *sp's doesn't mean that we know less than you - we work hard. We have smaller networks. I bet we defend our border egress to you than you defend toward us - if all small guys like me are the same, then the 'big boys' should be motivated to move forward Lets take it off topic and off-thread... This is a big-boy list. Out of the small guys on this big boy list, lets have a hands-up for who is doing the right thing (v6 & network defence & protecting their connected networks )... Steve
Re: Small guys with BGP issues
Steve Bertrand wrote: > Seems to me that some people have issues when a thread is taken over. > capiche... > > However, it also seems to me that there are people here who are > intelligent engineers who are afraid to speak, due to the size of the > company they work for. > > On behalf of the 'small guys', it sucks when you big(ger) guys: > > - don't listen to us > - practice good behaviour (bcp38) and don't preach it > - speak proudly of decent support, but don't respond to people who > aren't staffed by a tier(x) > - act as though you know something, but won't get out of the textbook > mentality > - again, this isn't a test for ccie, just because were working in > smaller *sp's doesn't mean that we know less than you > - we work hard. We have smaller networks. I bet we defend our border > egress to you than you defend toward us > - if all small guys like me are the same, then the 'big boys' should be > motivated to move forward > > Lets take it off topic and off-thread... > > This is a big-boy list. Out of the small guys on this big boy list, lets > have a hands-up for who is doing the right thing (v6 & network defence & > protecting their connected networks )... Holy shiat, I can't even deal with the off-list feedback! Thank you! Politically, unfortunately, I'm not that type. I can't do much there. I wish that I could make decisions with the company purse, but I can't... On the other hand, I wish I could direct operations. I know what needs to be done, and I know how to command people to get there. I *think* I know how to direct an entire company (given its geo-location) to success given the area it's in. Nonetheless, I am where I am, and I like it. I am responsible for what comes into my network, and what leaves it. I have written an ISP management system, and ensure/troubleshoot montly revenue streams. I love my job. I love being an ISP. Unfortunately, my ISP doesn't love me the same way. ( I can understand the business aspect, but at least show that you are technically inclined!) Steve
