Re: Zayo Extortion

[Job Snijders]

Dear nanog,

I'm asking the group to stay focussed on network operator topics.

While I appreciate the time and effort spend on the original legal
research in this thread, I fear the problem space of what defines libel
or slander is too far removed from the mailing list charter as described
here: https://www.nanog.org/list

Thanks!

Kind regards,

Job

Re: Zayo Extortion

[Jonathan Hall]

Guys,

Actually, thank you for the responses. I was hoping you wouldn’t take my 
attempt at friendly and humorous conversation the wrong way. I appreciate the 
education on the topic, as well. :)

However, I’d like to ask a few questions on it, if you don’t mind? (Also - 
you’re right, it’s not the freedom of speech act I’m thinking, wasn’t it some 
form of ‘decency act’ ? I digress, though…)

For something to actually be considered libel, isn’t it required that the 
statement be untrue, damaging in a way that must be proven and actually 
knowingly false?

Proving damages would be hard… But putting that aside, proving what he is 
saying is not true (unless it’s just 100% false and they have recorded evidence 
of it) might be even harder if they don’t have proper records of past due 
balances, or properly recorded communications (i.e. email). And where is the 
line drawn with regards to him/her knowingly making statements that are not 
true? And wouldn’t it still alsol require a general purpose public figure, or a 
limited purpose public figure, to prove malice in the instance? I don’t think 
the company would qualify as a general or limited purpose public figure. That 
would pretty much apply to actors, performer and/or social activist types - or 
politicians. Not a service provider… 

If he perceives it to be extortion, then it would be difficult to say that him 
claiming extortion is libel. The definition of extortion is the general 
practice of obtaining something, especially money, through the use of force or 
threats. In this case, the company is using the threat of disconnection as the 
force, and they are indeed attempting to collect money. So, if we take it from 
a literal definitive view of ‘extortion,’ the word, by definition, fits the 
scenario. It doesn’t imply wrong doing, really, and could be applicable to any 
and every service provider in existence today - even the pharmaceutical 
companies with regards to withholding medication that can save lives unless 
absurd amounts of money is paid. I’d say the entire world could be classified 
as extortionists if we go by the actual definition.

J


> On 17 Aug 2016, at 15:01, valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 17 Aug 2016 01:11:09 +0200, Jonathan Hall said:
>> And either way, defamation requires some form of punitive damage be proven in
>> order to act ually win that case.
> 
> In addition to the other things already pointed out, punitive damage doesn't
> need to be proven.
> 
> *Actual* damages have to be proven.  Punitive damages are damages added
> as punishment, to make sure the responsible party learned their lesson.
> 
> So fir instance, if a corporation's negligence results in a worker's death,
> his family may be awarded $5M in actual damages for the loss of their loved
> one - and then another $20 million in punitive damages, to make the 
> corporation
> (and possibly the industry segment as a whole) take notice that sort of
> negligent behavior will not be tolerated
> 

Re: Zayo Extortion

[Valdis . Kletnieks]

On Wed, 17 Aug 2016 01:11:09 +0200, Jonathan Hall said:
> And either way, defamation requires some form of punitive damage be proven in
> order to act ually win that case.

In addition to the other things already pointed out, punitive damage doesn't
need to be proven.

*Actual* damages have to be proven.  Punitive damages are damages added
as punishment, to make sure the responsible party learned their lesson.

So fir instance, if a corporation's negligence results in a worker's death,
his family may be awarded $5M in actual damages for the loss of their loved
one - and then another $20 million in punitive damages, to make the corporation
(and possibly the industry segment as a whole) take notice that sort of
negligent behavior will not be tolerated



pgp4ibWU1JV59.pgp
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Re: Zayo Extortion

[Larry Sheldon]

On 8/16/2016 21:13, William Herrin wrote:

On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 7:11 PM, Jonathan Hall  wrote:

if I’m not mistaken (don’t worry, I’m not) - this doesn’t count
 as ‘slander’ in any way, shape or form.


Jonathan,

Technically you're right, but not for the reason you think. Slander is
verbal defamation. Libel is written defamation. The original poster
has potentially exposed himself to a libel suit.


But what are the BGP implications?

--
"Everybody is a genius.  But if you judge a fish by
its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole
life believing that it is stupid."

--Albert Einstein

From Larry's Cox account.

Re: Zayo Extortion

[Steven Fischer]

For the record: Extortion(n) Law. *the crime of obtaining money or some
other thing of value by the abuse of one's office or authority.* Not sure
if (according to the provided account) a service provider threatening to
disable a critical business service unless rendered a sum of money the
service provider cannot prove they are owed qualifies as extortion, but
from the definition I found at dictionary.com, it is certainly seems to be
in that general neighborhood.

On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 9:24 PM, Mel Beckman  wrote:

> Jon,
>
> You're mistaken. This has nothing to do with being or not being an
> FCC-controlled medium. It has to do with published statements that may not
> be true -- which are classified as libel, not slander (slander is spoken,
> libel is written). If you post it in a mailing list, or on Facebook, it's
> legally considered published, as long as one other person not party to the
> matter can view it.
>
> You're also mistaken about how the law works. The person making the
> assertion has the burden of proof. If you say someone is an extortionist,
> you'd better be able to prove it. All the plaintiff has to do is say "Your
> honor, I've been libeled, and here are my damages. Please make the
> defendant compensate me." You will be subpoenaed, and at court the judge
> will turn to you and say "Where is the proof of your claims?"  If you can't
> deliver, the judgement will go against you.
>
> The plaintiff doesn't have to prove a thing. In fact, his claim will
> automatically be accepted and processed by the legal system up until you
> appear in court. The cost for you before that point could be thousands of
> dollars. If you don't show up for court, you automatically lose.
>
>  -mel beckman
>
>  -mel beckman
>
> On Aug 16, 2016, at 4:12 PM, Jonathan Hall > wrote:
>
> Excuse me for chiming in, here… But, if I’m not mistaken (don’t worry, I’m
> not) - this doesn’t count as ‘slander’ in any way, shape or form. This mail
> thread is not any kind of valid FCC controlled or public communications
> device, as the internet was actually excluded from the public
> communications device list under the Freedom of Speech Act in… Was it,
> 1996? Which means, ‘slander’ can’t be called in this case. You could argue
> that it can, but you’d lose in court in the long run.
>
> If you’re aiming for the defamation card? That’s a very difficult one to
> prove. I’d counter the argument in a court room by asking the judge to
> prove the plaintiff is NOT an extortionist scum bag. It certainly works
> both ways. And either way, defamation requires some form of punitive damage
> be proven in order to actually win that case. Are you saying that the
> company he is referencing has some way to claim and directly correlate a
> loss of income or potential loss of income, either present and/or future,
> due to the comment made on a mail group? I’d love to see that
> quantification on paper...
>
> None the less, regardless of what one accuses or says on the internet, the
> usage of the word ‘extortion’ is quite open for interpretation with regards
> to context, and making such a statement does not qualify for slander nor
> defamation. He could feel he’s being extorted, in which case exasperating
> his opinion publicly is no less legal than me telling you that I don’t
> really think you’re a good lawyer.
>
> Good luck trying to play that card in a courtroom.
>
> Short and simple: One could threaten to sue over it, and one could even
> try. Personally, I’d turn that court room in to a circus act if someone
> tried. I’d most likely get fined in contempt a few times, but at least even
> the judge will go home laughing. :)
>
> J
>
> On 16 Aug 2016, at 16:45, Anne Mitchell  itch...@isipp.com>> wrote:
>
>
> to say "our accounting system does not track invoice details -- it only
> shows the total amount due so your numbers mean nothing to us."
> All the while they relentlessly levied disconnect threats with short
> timelines such as: "if you don't pay us $128,000 by this Friday,
> we will shut your operation down."
> [...]
> At one point their lawyers and accounting people had the nerve to say "our
> accounting system does not track invoice details
>
> Are you talking with your SP's lawyers without your a legal team of
> your own present and advising you?
> I think one of the first things they should tell you is not to discuss
> pending disputes in public. Time to get
> a consultation with your own Lawyers to assist with billing dispute
> resolution, ASAP.
>
> Not to mention that accusing someone of a crime (extortion), in public (in
> this context I would argue that this is public, especially as the term
> 'community' was used in the allegation) is a pretty serious thing.
>
> Anne P. Mitchell,
> Attorney at Law
> Legislative Consultant
> CEO/President,
> SuretyMail Email Reputation Certification and Inbox Delivery Assistance
> 

Re: Zayo Extortion

[William Herrin]

On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 7:11 PM, Jonathan Hall  wrote:
> if I’m not mistaken (don’t worry, I’m not) - this doesn’t count
>  as ‘slander’ in any way, shape or form.

Jonathan,

Technically you're right, but not for the reason you think. Slander is
verbal defamation. Libel is written defamation. The original poster
has potentially exposed himself to a libel suit.

> This mail thread is not any kind of valid FCC controlled or public
> communications device, as the internet was actually excluded from
> the public communications device list under the Freedom of Speech
> Act in… Was it, 1996? Which means, ‘slander’ can’t be called in
> this case. You could argue that it can, but you’d lose in court in the long 
> run.

There is no such thing as the "Freedom of Speech Act" in 1996 or any
other year, and the FCC does not have the authority to nor has it
involved itself in the regulation of speech in any medium.

> If you’re aiming for the defamation card? That’s a very difficult one to 
> prove.

It's actually very, very simple. Did the defendant allege one or more
facts about the plaintiff? Did the the alleged facts injure the
plaintiff's reputation? Did the defendant prove that the alleged facts
are true? Yes, Yes, No = liable for cash damages.

Regards,
Bill Herrin


-- 
William Herrin  her...@dirtside.com  b...@herrin.us
Owner, Dirtside Systems . Web: 

Re: Zayo Extortion

[Mel Beckman]

Jon,

You're mistaken. This has nothing to do with being or not being an 
FCC-controlled medium. It has to do with published statements that may not be 
true -- which are classified as libel, not slander (slander is spoken, libel is 
written). If you post it in a mailing list, or on Facebook, it's legally 
considered published, as long as one other person not party to the matter can 
view it.

You're also mistaken about how the law works. The person making the assertion 
has the burden of proof. If you say someone is an extortionist, you'd better be 
able to prove it. All the plaintiff has to do is say "Your honor, I've been 
libeled, and here are my damages. Please make the defendant compensate me." You 
will be subpoenaed, and at court the judge will turn to you and say "Where is 
the proof of your claims?"  If you can't deliver, the judgement will go against 
you.

The plaintiff doesn't have to prove a thing. In fact, his claim will 
automatically be accepted and processed by the legal system up until you appear 
in court. The cost for you before that point could be thousands of dollars. If 
you don't show up for court, you automatically lose.

 -mel beckman

 -mel beckman

On Aug 16, 2016, at 4:12 PM, Jonathan Hall 
> wrote:

Excuse me for chiming in, here… But, if I’m not mistaken (don’t worry, I’m not) 
- this doesn’t count as ‘slander’ in any way, shape or form. This mail thread 
is not any kind of valid FCC controlled or public communications device, as the 
internet was actually excluded from the public communications device list under 
the Freedom of Speech Act in… Was it, 1996? Which means, ‘slander’ can’t be 
called in this case. You could argue that it can, but you’d lose in court in 
the long run.

If you’re aiming for the defamation card? That’s a very difficult one to prove. 
I’d counter the argument in a court room by asking the judge to prove the 
plaintiff is NOT an extortionist scum bag. It certainly works both ways. And 
either way, defamation requires some form of punitive damage be proven in order 
to actually win that case. Are you saying that the company he is referencing 
has some way to claim and directly correlate a loss of income or potential loss 
of income, either present and/or future, due to the comment made on a mail 
group? I’d love to see that quantification on paper...

None the less, regardless of what one accuses or says on the internet, the 
usage of the word ‘extortion’ is quite open for interpretation with regards to 
context, and making such a statement does not qualify for slander nor 
defamation. He could feel he’s being extorted, in which case exasperating his 
opinion publicly is no less legal than me telling you that I don’t really think 
you’re a good lawyer.

Good luck trying to play that card in a courtroom.

Short and simple: One could threaten to sue over it, and one could even try. 
Personally, I’d turn that court room in to a circus act if someone tried. I’d 
most likely get fined in contempt a few times, but at least even the judge will 
go home laughing. :)

J

On 16 Aug 2016, at 16:45, Anne Mitchell 
> wrote:


to say "our accounting system does not track invoice details -- it only shows 
the total amount due so your numbers mean nothing to us."
All the while they relentlessly levied disconnect threats with short timelines 
such as: "if you don't pay us $128,000 by this Friday,
we will shut your operation down."
[...]
At one point their lawyers and accounting people had the nerve to say "our 
accounting system does not track invoice details

Are you talking with your SP's lawyers without your a legal team of
your own present and advising you?
I think one of the first things they should tell you is not to discuss
pending disputes in public. Time to get
a consultation with your own Lawyers to assist with billing dispute
resolution, ASAP.

Not to mention that accusing someone of a crime (extortion), in public (in this 
context I would argue that this is public, especially as the term 'community' 
was used in the allegation) is a pretty serious thing.

Anne P. Mitchell,
Attorney at Law
Legislative Consultant
CEO/President,
SuretyMail Email Reputation Certification and Inbox Delivery Assistance
http://www.SuretyMail.com/
http://www.SuretyMail.eu/

Available for consultations by special arrangement.

Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal anti-spam law)
Member, California Bar Cyberspace Law Committee
Member, Colorado Cybersecurity Consortium
Member, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop Committee
Ret. Professor of Law, Lincoln Law School of San Jose
Ret. Chair, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop
amitch...@isipp.com | @AnnePMitchell
Facebook/AnnePMitchell  | LinkedIn/in/annemitchell

Re: Zayo Extortion

[Jonathan Hall]

Excuse me for chiming in, here… But, if I’m not mistaken (don’t worry, I’m not) 
- this doesn’t count as ‘slander’ in any way, shape or form. This mail thread 
is not any kind of valid FCC controlled or public communications device, as the 
internet was actually excluded from the public communications device list under 
the Freedom of Speech Act in… Was it, 1996? Which means, ‘slander’ can’t be 
called in this case. You could argue that it can, but you’d lose in court in 
the long run.

If you’re aiming for the defamation card? That’s a very difficult one to prove. 
I’d counter the argument in a court room by asking the judge to prove the 
plaintiff is NOT an extortionist scum bag. It certainly works both ways. And 
either way, defamation requires some form of punitive damage be proven in order 
to actually win that case. Are you saying that the company he is referencing 
has some way to claim and directly correlate a loss of income or potential loss 
of income, either present and/or future, due to the comment made on a mail 
group? I’d love to see that quantification on paper...

None the less, regardless of what one accuses or says on the internet, the 
usage of the word ‘extortion’ is quite open for interpretation with regards to 
context, and making such a statement does not qualify for slander nor 
defamation. He could feel he’s being extorted, in which case exasperating his 
opinion publicly is no less legal than me telling you that I don’t really think 
you’re a good lawyer. 

Good luck trying to play that card in a courtroom. 

Short and simple: One could threaten to sue over it, and one could even try. 
Personally, I’d turn that court room in to a circus act if someone tried. I’d 
most likely get fined in contempt a few times, but at least even the judge will 
go home laughing. :) 

J

> On 16 Aug 2016, at 16:45, Anne Mitchell  wrote:
> 
> 
>>> to say "our accounting system does not track invoice details -- it only 
>>> shows the total amount due so your numbers mean nothing to us."
>>> All the while they relentlessly levied disconnect threats with short 
>>> timelines such as: "if you don't pay us $128,000 by this Friday,
>>> we will shut your operation down."
>> [...]
>>> At one point their lawyers and accounting people had the nerve to say "our 
>>> accounting system does not track invoice details
>> 
>> Are you talking with your SP's lawyers without your a legal team of
>> your own present and advising you?
>> I think one of the first things they should tell you is not to discuss
>> pending disputes in public. Time to get
>> a consultation with your own Lawyers to assist with billing dispute
>> resolution, ASAP.
> 
> Not to mention that accusing someone of a crime (extortion), in public (in 
> this context I would argue that this is public, especially as the term 
> 'community' was used in the allegation) is a pretty serious thing.
> 
> Anne P. Mitchell, 
> Attorney at Law
> Legislative Consultant
> CEO/President, 
> SuretyMail Email Reputation Certification and Inbox Delivery Assistance
> http://www.SuretyMail.com/
> http://www.SuretyMail.eu/
> 
> Available for consultations by special arrangement.
> 
> Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal anti-spam law)
> Member, California Bar Cyberspace Law Committee
> Member, Colorado Cybersecurity Consortium
> Member, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop Committee
> Ret. Professor of Law, Lincoln Law School of San Jose
> Ret. Chair, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop
> amitch...@isipp.com | @AnnePMitchell
> Facebook/AnnePMitchell  | LinkedIn/in/annemitchell
> 
> 

Re: Zayo Extortion

[Fletcher Kittredge]

On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 11:53 AM, Niels Bakker 

Re: Zayo Extortion

[Valdis . Kletnieks]

On Tue, 16 Aug 2016 17:53:23 +0200, Niels Bakker said:

> An actual lawyer!  Where were you in the CloudFlare booters thread, though?

Keeping sensibly quiet, I think... :)


pgp7DwJ_2f90w.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Zayo Extortion

[Niels Bakker]

* amitch...@isipp.com (Anne Mitchell) [Tue 16 Aug 2016, 16:46 CEST]:
[...]

Attorney at Law
Legislative Consultant


An actual lawyer!  Where were you in the CloudFlare booters thread, though?


-- Niels.

--
"It's amazing what people will do to get their name on the internet, 
which is odd, because all you really need is a Blogspot account."

-- roy edroso, alicublog.blogspot.com

Re: Zayo Extortion

[Anne Mitchell]

>> to say "our accounting system does not track invoice details -- it only 
>> shows the total amount due so your numbers mean nothing to us."
>> All the while they relentlessly levied disconnect threats with short 
>> timelines such as: "if you don't pay us $128,000 by this Friday,
>> we will shut your operation down."
> [...]
>> At one point their lawyers and accounting people had the nerve to say "our 
>> accounting system does not track invoice details
> 
> Are you talking with your SP's lawyers without your a legal team of
> your own present and advising you?
> I think one of the first things they should tell you is not to discuss
> pending disputes in public. Time to get
> a consultation with your own Lawyers to assist with billing dispute
> resolution, ASAP.

Not to mention that accusing someone of a crime (extortion), in public (in this 
context I would argue that this is public, especially as the term 'community' 
was used in the allegation) is a pretty serious thing.

Anne P. Mitchell, 
Attorney at Law
Legislative Consultant
CEO/President, 
SuretyMail Email Reputation Certification and Inbox Delivery Assistance
http://www.SuretyMail.com/
http://www.SuretyMail.eu/

Available for consultations by special arrangement.

Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal anti-spam law)
Member, California Bar Cyberspace Law Committee
Member, Colorado Cybersecurity Consortium
Member, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop Committee
Ret. Professor of Law, Lincoln Law School of San Jose
Ret. Chair, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop
amitch...@isipp.com | @AnnePMitchell
Facebook/AnnePMitchell  | LinkedIn/in/annemitchell

Re: Zayo Extortion

[Kaiser, Erich]

In response to the original email they do do this I have experienced it
myself it is usually because of billing issues that they don't know how to
resolve.  It's complete BS worse than dealing with att.

On Aug 15, 2016 9:14 AM, "Paras Jha"  wrote:

> Yeah, I see a wall of text, but no real evidence to substantiate it.
>
> On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 8:29 AM, Mike Hammett  wrote:
>
> > Try more facts and less emotion.
> >
> >
> >
> > -
> > Mike Hammett
> > Intelligent Computing Solutions
> >
> > Midwest Internet Exchange
> >
> > The Brothers WISP
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> >
> > From: "HonorFirst Name Ethics via NANOG" 
> > To: nanog@nanog.org
> > Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2016 11:50:46 AM
> > Subject: Zayo Extortion
> >
> > Question to the NANOG community, Is anyone else being extorted by Zayo?
> Is
> > Zayo threatening shutdown over bogus and fabricated charges?
> >
> > The purpose of this message to the group is twofold: 1) to share our
> > experience being extorted by Zayo with the community and 2) to understand
> > the depth and extent of Zayo's less than ethical behavior by getting
> > feedback from the community.
> >
> > Abovenet was a great organization with quality service, reasonable prices
> > and nice folks to work with. Since being acquired by Zayo we have seen a
> > significant degradation of service quality and responsiveness which is
> not
> > unusual from a provider, but Zayo has taken things to a level of low
> ethics
> > that would make Tony Soprano proud.
> > Most interestingly they seem to identify points where you are dependent
> on
> > them and threaten a shut down unless you pay them some arbitrary amount.
> In
> > our case we use multiple Zayo IP, Transport, and Colo Services -- they
> set
> > their extortion amount at $128,000. A completely arbitrary and fabricated
> > number. They put significant pressure threatening to shut us down by
> > setting their lawyers on us.
> > Our detailed contract breakdowns, invoice and payment spreadsheets, along
> > with all other commonsense and professional efforts were simply
> > disregarded. At one point their lawyers and accounting people had the
> nerve
> > to say "our accounting system does not track invoice details -- it only
> > shows the total amount due so your numbers mean nothing to us." All the
> > while they relentlessly levied disconnect threats with short timelines
> such
> > as: "if you don't pay us $128,000 by this Friday, we will shut your
> > operation down."
> > We have had anecdotal feedback that we are not alone in our experience
> and
> > that there are many more like us. If you and your company have had a
> > similar experience with Zayo, please share it with the group or if like
> us
> > you are concerned about retaliation from Zayo, please respond privately.
> >
> > If the group shares their experiences the public shaming may drive Zayo
> to
> > stop operating like mafia thugs. If the problem is as common as we
> suspect,
> > it may warrant getting the Attorney General involved.
> >
> > In the mean time, I strongly urge anyone already in a relationship with
> > Zayo or considering a relationship to make sure your are well diversified
> > with other more ethical carriers. Otherwise please consider another
> > organization to work with.
> > In our case we were better of with Ransomeware, than Zayo as a vendor!
> Its
> > cheaper and less damaging
> >
> > A Zayo victim and a NANOG Member
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Regards,
> Paras
>
> President
> ProTraf Solutions, LLC
> Enterprise DDoS Mitigation
>

Re: Zayo Extortion

[Larry Sheldon]

On 8/15/2016 07:29, Mike Hammett wrote:

Try more facts and less emotion.


I remember a day when I was banned from NANOG of less emotion and lots 
more factual content.



- Original Message -

From: "HonorFirst Name Ethics via NANOG"


Red-flag line.

[much snippage has occurred]


A Zayo victim and a NANOG Member


[a little more would have been right]

--
"Everybody is a genius.  But if you judge a fish by
its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole
life believing that it is stupid."

--Albert Einstein

From Larry's Cox account.

RE: Zayo Extortion

[Naslund, Steve]

Exactly,  It is unlikely they will ever be able to collect on a debt they do 
not have documentation to support but that does not stop them from 
disconnecting your service whenever they want.  You might have legal recourse 
to go after them if they disconnect you but it won’t be fast and it won't give 
you immediate connectivity.  Talk to your lawyers and in the meantime I would 
be shopping some alternative service for when things get nasty.

Steven Naslund
Chicago IL

-Original Message-
From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Jimmy Hess
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2016 1:00 PM
To: HonorFirst Name Ethics
Cc: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: Zayo Extortion

On Sat, Aug 13, 2016 at 11:50 AM, HonorFirst Name Ethics via NANOG 
<nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
> to say "our accounting system does not track invoice details -- it only shows 
> the total amount due so your numbers mean nothing to us."
>  All the while they relentlessly levied disconnect threats with short 
> timelines such as: "if you don't pay us $128,000 by this Friday, we will shut 
> your operation down."
[...]
>At one point their lawyers and accounting people had the nerve to say 
>"our accounting system does not track invoice details

Are you talking with your SP's lawyers without your a legal team of your own 
present and advising you?
I think one of the first things they should tell you is not to discuss pending 
disputes in public. Time to get a consultation with your own Lawyers to assist 
with billing dispute resolution, ASAP.

Provided there is a reasonable agreement in place: I think  You ought to be 
able to at least temporarily delay your SP from turning off services,  while 
you work out your billing dispute.

The service provider could be subject to liability by turning off services 
which you have not agreed to disconnect.

Your lawyers should be able to refute a SP's claim about  their records system 
not tracking the actual amounts due under specific agreements causing  the 
conclusion that the output from the record system is inscrutible and infallible.


--
-JH

Re: Zayo Extortion

[William Herrin]

On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 8:29 AM, Mike Hammett  wrote:
> Try more facts and less emotion.

+1


> From: "HonorFirst Name Ethics via NANOG" 
>  they relentlessly levied disconnect threats with short timelines
> such as: "if you don't pay us $128,000 by this Friday, we will
> shut your operation down."

Short timeline or short by the time you became aware of it? It's not
unusual in this business for POCs to fall out of date where an SP
can't communicate a problem to you, or for billing and technical POCs
at an organization to not communicate with each other.  If this is a
case of the threats finally got serious enough that the other guy
figured he should mention them to you, that doesn't really qualify as
a short timeline.

As far as raising the rent goes... that's frankly an industry-wide
problem. The SP runs 12 different contracts with you with 12 different
contract periods for interrelated services that from your perspective
are all-or-none. Your contract period on one comes to a close and when
you ask for the renewal price you get sticker-shock. It's even more
frustrating when it's all-or-none interrelated services from three or
four vendors and only one decides to raise the rent.

Live and learn and in the future do the extra legwork to make your
service contracts at any single location co-terminating.

Regards,
Bill Herrin



-- 
William Herrin  her...@dirtside.com  b...@herrin.us
Owner, Dirtside Systems . Web: 

RE: Zayo Extortion

[Naslund, Steve]

That is pretty close to my experience.  I would say nearly all carriers have 
billing nightmares and some of them have networks that work well.   Best 
carrier for billing is a bit like asking for the best ice skater in hell.


Steven Naslund
Chicago IL




-Original Message-
From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Florian Weimer
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2016 1:10 PM
To: Chris Knipe
Cc: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: Zayo Extortion

* Chris Knipe:

> Although a company that can't manage their book keeping properly, is 
> IMHO enough reason to not use them... :-)

Ther used to be a saying that you could choose between carries with functional 
billing and carriers with a functional network.

Re: Zayo Extortion

[Florian Weimer]

* Chris Knipe:

> Although a company that can't manage their book keeping properly, is IMHO
> enough reason to not use them... :-)

Ther used to be a saying that you could choose between carries with
functional billing and carriers with a functional network.

Re: Zayo Extortion

[Jimmy Hess]

On Sat, Aug 13, 2016 at 11:50 AM, HonorFirst Name Ethics via NANOG
 wrote:
> to say "our accounting system does not track invoice details -- it only shows 
> the total amount due so your numbers mean nothing to us."
>  All the while they relentlessly levied disconnect threats with short 
> timelines such as: "if you don't pay us $128,000 by this Friday,
> we will shut your operation down."
[...]
>At one point their lawyers and accounting people had the nerve to say "our 
>accounting system does not track invoice details

Are you talking with your SP's lawyers without your a legal team of
your own present and advising you?
I think one of the first things they should tell you is not to discuss
pending disputes in public. Time to get
a consultation with your own Lawyers to assist with billing dispute
resolution, ASAP.

Provided there is a reasonable agreement in place: I think  You ought
to be able to at least
temporarily delay your SP from turning off services,  while you work
out your billing dispute.

The service provider could be subject to liability by turning off
services which you have not agreed to disconnect.

Your lawyers should be able to refute a SP's claim about  their
records system not tracking the actual amounts
due under specific agreements causing  the conclusion that the output
from the record system is inscrutible and
infallible.


--
-JH

Re: Zayo Extortion

[Chris Knipe]

On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 5:41 PM,  wrote:

> On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 11:16:26 -0400, Jon Lewis said:
> > Obvious first question would be, have you fallen behind paying your bill?
>
> And if you're in fact up-to-date, make sure you have *proof* of same. It's
> not unheard of for providers to mis-credit your payments and then think
> you're
> behind.  Usually showing them proof that funds were transferred to the
> provider, and it's *their* problem to fix their accounting system, is
> sufficient to make them change their tune *really* fast...
>


Although a company that can't manage their book keeping properly, is IMHO
enough reason to not use them... :-)


-- 

Regards,
Chris Knipe

Re: Zayo Extortion

[Valdis . Kletnieks]

On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 11:16:26 -0400, Jon Lewis said:
> Obvious first question would be, have you fallen behind paying your bill?

And if you're in fact up-to-date, make sure you have *proof* of same. It's
not unheard of for providers to mis-credit your payments and then think you're
behind.  Usually showing them proof that funds were transferred to the
provider, and it's *their* problem to fix their accounting system, is
sufficient to make them change their tune *really* fast...


pgpC8T9PDZSF7.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Zayo Extortion

[Jon Lewis]

Obvious first question would be, have you fallen behind paying your bill? 
Most service providers will threaten to disrupt your service if you don't 
pay for the services they provide.


I would expect you're months behind paying for service before they say:

"if you don't pay us $128,000 by this Friday, we will shut [you down]."


On Saturday, August 13, 2016, HonorFirst Name Ethics via NANOG <
nanog@nanog.org> wrote:


Question to the NANOG community,  Is anyone else being extorted by Zayo?
Is Zayo threatening shutdown over bogus and fabricated charges?

The purpose of this message to the group is twofold: 1) to share our
experience being extorted by Zayo with the community and 2) to understand
the depth and extent of Zayo's less than ethical behavior by getting
feedback from the community.

Abovenet was a great organization with quality service, reasonable prices
and nice folks to work with.  Since being acquired by Zayo we have seen a
significant degradation of service quality and responsiveness which is not
unusual from a provider, but Zayo has taken things to a level of low ethics
that would make Tony Soprano proud.
Most interestingly they seem to identify points where you are dependent on
them and threaten a shut down unless you pay them some arbitrary amount.
In our case we use multiple Zayo IP, Transport, and Colo Services -- they
set their extortion amount at $128,000.  A completely arbitrary and
fabricated number.  They put significant pressure threatening to shut us
down by setting their lawyers on us.
Our detailed contract breakdowns, invoice and payment spreadsheets, along
with all other commonsense and professional efforts were simply
disregarded.  At one point their lawyers and accounting people had the
nerve to say "our accounting system does not track invoice details -- it
only shows the total amount due so your numbers mean nothing to us."  All
the while they relentlessly levied disconnect threats with short timelines
such as: "if you don't pay us $128,000 by this Friday, we will shut your
operation down."
We have had anecdotal feedback that we are not alone in our experience and
that there are many more like us.  If you and your company have had a
similar experience with Zayo, please share it with the group or if like us
you are concerned about retaliation from Zayo, please respond privately.

If the group shares their experiences  the public shaming may drive Zayo
to stop operating like mafia thugs.  If the problem is as common as we
suspect, it may warrant getting the Attorney General involved.

In the mean time, I strongly urge anyone already in a relationship with
Zayo or considering a relationship to make sure your are well diversified
with other more ethical carriers. Otherwise please consider another
organization to work with.
In our case we were better of with Ransomeware, than Zayo as a vendor!
Its cheaper and less damaging

A Zayo victim and a NANOG Member





--
 Jon Lewis, MCP :)   |  I route
 |  therefore you are
_ http://www.lewis.org/~jlewis/pgp for PGP public key_

Re: Zayo Extortion

[Ca By]

Nope, have not seen any of this bad stuff you speak of.

I can say that over the last few years i have done a ton business with Zayo
and they are top flight in every respect.



On Saturday, August 13, 2016, HonorFirst Name Ethics via NANOG <
nanog@nanog.org> wrote:

> Question to the NANOG community,  Is anyone else being extorted by Zayo?
> Is Zayo threatening shutdown over bogus and fabricated charges?
>
> The purpose of this message to the group is twofold: 1) to share our
> experience being extorted by Zayo with the community and 2) to understand
> the depth and extent of Zayo's less than ethical behavior by getting
> feedback from the community.
>
> Abovenet was a great organization with quality service, reasonable prices
> and nice folks to work with.  Since being acquired by Zayo we have seen a
> significant degradation of service quality and responsiveness which is not
> unusual from a provider, but Zayo has taken things to a level of low ethics
> that would make Tony Soprano proud.
> Most interestingly they seem to identify points where you are dependent on
> them and threaten a shut down unless you pay them some arbitrary amount.
> In our case we use multiple Zayo IP, Transport, and Colo Services -- they
> set their extortion amount at $128,000.  A completely arbitrary and
> fabricated number.  They put significant pressure threatening to shut us
> down by setting their lawyers on us.
> Our detailed contract breakdowns, invoice and payment spreadsheets, along
> with all other commonsense and professional efforts were simply
> disregarded.  At one point their lawyers and accounting people had the
> nerve to say "our accounting system does not track invoice details -- it
> only shows the total amount due so your numbers mean nothing to us."  All
> the while they relentlessly levied disconnect threats with short timelines
> such as: "if you don't pay us $128,000 by this Friday, we will shut your
> operation down."
> We have had anecdotal feedback that we are not alone in our experience and
> that there are many more like us.  If you and your company have had a
> similar experience with Zayo, please share it with the group or if like us
> you are concerned about retaliation from Zayo, please respond privately.
>
> If the group shares their experiences  the public shaming may drive Zayo
> to stop operating like mafia thugs.  If the problem is as common as we
> suspect, it may warrant getting the Attorney General involved.
>
> In the mean time, I strongly urge anyone already in a relationship with
> Zayo or considering a relationship to make sure your are well diversified
> with other more ethical carriers. Otherwise please consider another
> organization to work with.
> In our case we were better of with Ransomeware, than Zayo as a vendor!
> Its cheaper and less damaging
>
> A Zayo victim and a NANOG Member
>

Re: Zayo Extortion

[Paras Jha]

Yeah, I see a wall of text, but no real evidence to substantiate it.

On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 8:29 AM, Mike Hammett  wrote:

> Try more facts and less emotion.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>
> Midwest Internet Exchange
>
> The Brothers WISP
>
>
> - Original Message -
>
> From: "HonorFirst Name Ethics via NANOG" 
> To: nanog@nanog.org
> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2016 11:50:46 AM
> Subject: Zayo Extortion
>
> Question to the NANOG community, Is anyone else being extorted by Zayo? Is
> Zayo threatening shutdown over bogus and fabricated charges?
>
> The purpose of this message to the group is twofold: 1) to share our
> experience being extorted by Zayo with the community and 2) to understand
> the depth and extent of Zayo's less than ethical behavior by getting
> feedback from the community.
>
> Abovenet was a great organization with quality service, reasonable prices
> and nice folks to work with. Since being acquired by Zayo we have seen a
> significant degradation of service quality and responsiveness which is not
> unusual from a provider, but Zayo has taken things to a level of low ethics
> that would make Tony Soprano proud.
> Most interestingly they seem to identify points where you are dependent on
> them and threaten a shut down unless you pay them some arbitrary amount. In
> our case we use multiple Zayo IP, Transport, and Colo Services -- they set
> their extortion amount at $128,000. A completely arbitrary and fabricated
> number. They put significant pressure threatening to shut us down by
> setting their lawyers on us.
> Our detailed contract breakdowns, invoice and payment spreadsheets, along
> with all other commonsense and professional efforts were simply
> disregarded. At one point their lawyers and accounting people had the nerve
> to say "our accounting system does not track invoice details -- it only
> shows the total amount due so your numbers mean nothing to us." All the
> while they relentlessly levied disconnect threats with short timelines such
> as: "if you don't pay us $128,000 by this Friday, we will shut your
> operation down."
> We have had anecdotal feedback that we are not alone in our experience and
> that there are many more like us. If you and your company have had a
> similar experience with Zayo, please share it with the group or if like us
> you are concerned about retaliation from Zayo, please respond privately.
>
> If the group shares their experiences the public shaming may drive Zayo to
> stop operating like mafia thugs. If the problem is as common as we suspect,
> it may warrant getting the Attorney General involved.
>
> In the mean time, I strongly urge anyone already in a relationship with
> Zayo or considering a relationship to make sure your are well diversified
> with other more ethical carriers. Otherwise please consider another
> organization to work with.
> In our case we were better of with Ransomeware, than Zayo as a vendor! Its
> cheaper and less damaging
>
> A Zayo victim and a NANOG Member
>



-- 
Regards,
Paras

President
ProTraf Solutions, LLC
Enterprise DDoS Mitigation

Re: Zayo Extortion

[Mike Hammett]

Try more facts and less emotion. 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 


- Original Message -

From: "HonorFirst Name Ethics via NANOG"  
To: nanog@nanog.org 
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2016 11:50:46 AM 
Subject: Zayo Extortion 

Question to the NANOG community, Is anyone else being extorted by Zayo? Is Zayo 
threatening shutdown over bogus and fabricated charges? 

The purpose of this message to the group is twofold: 1) to share our experience 
being extorted by Zayo with the community and 2) to understand the depth and 
extent of Zayo's less than ethical behavior by getting feedback from the 
community. 

Abovenet was a great organization with quality service, reasonable prices and 
nice folks to work with. Since being acquired by Zayo we have seen a 
significant degradation of service quality and responsiveness which is not 
unusual from a provider, but Zayo has taken things to a level of low ethics 
that would make Tony Soprano proud. 
Most interestingly they seem to identify points where you are dependent on them 
and threaten a shut down unless you pay them some arbitrary amount. In our case 
we use multiple Zayo IP, Transport, and Colo Services -- they set their 
extortion amount at $128,000. A completely arbitrary and fabricated number. 
They put significant pressure threatening to shut us down by setting their 
lawyers on us. 
Our detailed contract breakdowns, invoice and payment spreadsheets, along with 
all other commonsense and professional efforts were simply disregarded. At one 
point their lawyers and accounting people had the nerve to say "our accounting 
system does not track invoice details -- it only shows the total amount due so 
your numbers mean nothing to us." All the while they relentlessly levied 
disconnect threats with short timelines such as: "if you don't pay us $128,000 
by this Friday, we will shut your operation down." 
We have had anecdotal feedback that we are not alone in our experience and that 
there are many more like us. If you and your company have had a similar 
experience with Zayo, please share it with the group or if like us you are 
concerned about retaliation from Zayo, please respond privately. 

If the group shares their experiences the public shaming may drive Zayo to stop 
operating like mafia thugs. If the problem is as common as we suspect, it may 
warrant getting the Attorney General involved. 

In the mean time, I strongly urge anyone already in a relationship with Zayo or 
considering a relationship to make sure your are well diversified with other 
more ethical carriers. Otherwise please consider another organization to work 
with. 
In our case we were better of with Ransomeware, than Zayo as a vendor! Its 
cheaper and less damaging 

A Zayo victim and a NANOG Member