Re: coprorations using BGP for advertising prefixes in mid-1990s
>Does no one remember EGP? Yes, I remember EGP every well. When we built the NSFNET T1 backbone in 1987, EGP was the only available routing protocol for exterior routing. We deployed it and used EGP to exchange routing information with the connected regional networks. Initially, it worked fine but then when the routing table and traffic grew, we observed that every 3 minutes, the network performance got a hit. After some investigation, we discovered that it was due to the fact that EGP did routing updates every 3 minutes by flooding the whole routing table to the peer and the process overwhelmed router processor. At that time, the processor on the router did both routing and forwarding. Fortunately, Yakov of IBM, Kirk from Cisco and we Merit were working on the development and testing of BGP, which was intended to replace EGP. BGP does incremental routing updates i.e. it sends its peer the delta whenever routing topology changes rather than flooding its peer with the whole routing table every 3 minutes. It saved a lot of processing power. In addition, it reduces routing convergence time since BGP sends its neighbors the updates whenever changes occurs. In the case of EGP, it may take as long as close to 3 minutes after a route change before the routing table got updated. In addition, BGP has loop detection capability due to its inclusion of AS path information. These were the technical reasons to replace EGP with BGP at the time. We worked with regional network reps and started to convert NSFNET to regional peers from EGP to BGP in early 1990s. I also created the BGP Deployment Work Group at IETF to push the deployment of BGP in the whole Internet. cheers! --Jessica From: Kevin Oberman To: Dorn Hetzel Cc: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 2:37 PM Subject: Re: coprorations using BGP for advertising prefixes in mid-1990s > Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 17:15:17 -0400 > From: Dorn Hetzel > > > > > > > The actual number would be considerably smaller as there were large > > (for some definition of large) block assignments of ASNs <~1000 or so > > to various academic networking entities such as NSFNet and regional > > networks as well as other Federal/Military networking organisations. > > > > -dorian > > > > > Well, for one data point, I was issued 3492 around Spring of 1994. > Does no one remember EGP? ASNs are MUCH older than BGP. And we were using BGPv3 prior to the existence of V4. We used BGPv4 back in the days when Tony Li would chastise us for reporting a bug in a 10 day old Cisco build saying that we could not expect BGPv4 code over a week old to work. He felt that we should deploy new code daily. The big push was to have v4 available before the old PRDB was frozen by Merit/NSFnet. (And, who remembers the PRDB?) -- R. Kevin Oberman, Network Engineer Energy Sciences Network (ESnet) Ernest O. Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (Berkeley Lab) E-mail: ober...@es.net Phone: +1 510 486-8634 Key fingerprint:059B 2DDF 031C 9BA3 14A4 EADA 927D EBB3 987B 3751
Re: coprorations using BGP for advertising prefixes in mid-1990s
The Smarties in this part of the world don't come in boxes. :-) CJ On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 10:10 PM, wrote: > And if you had a great question or response, would you get a box of > Smarties? > > Robert > > > -- Sent from my Palm Pre > > -- > On May 12, 2011 10:54 PM, c...@daydream.com wrote: > > Yes images had names in them and in 1989 you could call cisco if your box > was broken and Eileen would just send parts. > > Cathy > > On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 9:44 PM, Adrian Chadd wrote: > > > > On Fri, May 13, 2011, Hank Nussbacher wrote: > > > > > I always liked seeing the string "tli" in the IOS bundle in those days. > > > > > Whoa, you mean Cisco IOS images have "built by" names other than "prod > rel > > team" ? > > > > (heh.) > > > > > > > > Adrian > > > > > > >
Re: coprorations using BGP for advertising prefixes in mid-1990s
> From: Tony Li > Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 16:47:54 -0700 > > On May 12, 2011, at 2:37 PM, Kevin Oberman wrote: > > > Does no one remember EGP? ASNs are MUCH older than BGP. And we were > > using BGPv3 prior to the existence of V4. We used BGPv4 back in the days > > when Tony Li would chastise us for reporting a bug in a 10 day old Cisco > > build saying that we could not expect BGPv4 code over a week old to > > work. He felt that we should deploy new code daily. > > > To be fair, that was for folks on the isp-geeks mailing list, who were > effectively doing alpha test with me. I was fixing about 1 > significant bug per day and doing at least one release per day. 10 > day old code was missing at least 10 fixes... ;-) And that was BGP3. > BGP4 was the next developer. > > Regards, > Tony > Yes, Tony. It was absolutely fair. It was certainly not your (or Cisco's) fault. It was a huge effort on the part of a small number of Cisco engineers (I assume that you and Paul wrote most of the code) to get a complex protocol stable and ready for implementation in far too little time. It was utter insanity and it all worked! (Just in time for the death of the PRDB). In no way was I criticizing your efforts. I just remember that message and thinking how much testing and planning we do today before rolling new code onto production systems. The idea of reloading production routers with code we absolutely knew would prove buggy on a weekly (or more than weekly) basis seems so unimaginable today. I'm looking forward to seeing Milo at NANOG 52 next month in Denver! I'm sure that he remembers all of this. -- R. Kevin Oberman, Network Engineer Energy Sciences Network (ESnet) Ernest O. Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (Berkeley Lab) E-mail: ober...@es.net Phone: +1 510 486-8634 Key fingerprint:059B 2DDF 031C 9BA3 14A4 EADA 927D EBB3 987B 3751
Re: coprorations using BGP for advertising prefixes in mid-1990s
On May 12, 2011, at 9:41 PM, Brett Watson wrote: > Hell, you knew from the image name wether Tony, Ravi, Dino, etc have built > the image. It was quite personal back then :) And then some bright fellow started hitting on our build engineers and... that was the end of that. ;-( Tony
Re: coprorations using BGP for advertising prefixes in mid-1990s
On May 12, 2011, at 8:53 PM, c...@daydream.com wrote: > Yes images had names in them and in 1989 you could call cisco if your box > was broken and Eileen would just send parts. Hell, you knew from the image name wether Toni, Ravi, Dino, etc have built the image. It was quite personal back then :)
Re: coprorations using BGP for advertising prefixes in mid-1990s
And if you had a great question or response, would you get a box of Smarties? Robert -- Sent from my Palm Pre __ On May 12, 2011 10:54 PM, c...@daydream.com wrote: Yes images had names in them and in 1989 you could call cisco if your box was broken and Eileen would just send parts. Cathy On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 9:44 PM, Adrian Chadd wrote: > On Fri, May 13, 2011, Hank Nussbacher wrote: > > > I always liked seeing the string "tli" in the IOS bundle in those days. > > Whoa, you mean Cisco IOS images have "built by" names other than "prod rel > team" ? > > (heh.) > > > > Adrian > > >
Re: coprorations using BGP for advertising prefixes in mid-1990s
Yes images had names in them and in 1989 you could call cisco if your box was broken and Eileen would just send parts. Cathy On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 9:44 PM, Adrian Chadd wrote: > On Fri, May 13, 2011, Hank Nussbacher wrote: > > > I always liked seeing the string "tli" in the IOS bundle in those days. > > Whoa, you mean Cisco IOS images have "built by" names other than "prod rel > team" ? > > (heh.) > > > > Adrian > > >
Re: coprorations using BGP for advertising prefixes in mid-1990s
On Fri, 13 May 2011, Hank Nussbacher wrote: On Thu, 12 May 2011, Tony Li wrote: To be fair, that was for folks on the isp-geeks mailing list, who were effectively doing alpha test with me. I was fixing about 1 significant bug per day and doing at least one release per day. 10 day old code was missing at least 10 fixes... ;-) And that was BGP3. BGP4 was the next developer. I always liked seeing the string "tli" in the IOS bundle in those days. It also caused me to write up an FAQ to help those corporations: http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/nanog/users/1753?do=post_view_threaded -Hank -Hank AS378 Regards, Tony
Re: coprorations using BGP for advertising prefixes in mid-1990s
On Fri, May 13, 2011, Hank Nussbacher wrote: > I always liked seeing the string "tli" in the IOS bundle in those days. Whoa, you mean Cisco IOS images have "built by" names other than "prod rel team" ? (heh.) Adrian
Re: coprorations using BGP for advertising prefixes in mid-1990s
On Thu, 12 May 2011, Tony Li wrote: To be fair, that was for folks on the isp-geeks mailing list, who were effectively doing alpha test with me. I was fixing about 1 significant bug per day and doing at least one release per day. 10 day old code was missing at least 10 fixes... ;-) And that was BGP3. BGP4 was the next developer. I always liked seeing the string "tli" in the IOS bundle in those days. -Hank AS378 Regards, Tony
Re: coprorations using BGP for advertising prefixes in mid-1990s
On May 12, 2011, at 4:47 PM, Tony Li wrote: > To be fair, that was for folks on the isp-geeks mailing list, who were > effectively doing alpha test with me. I was fixing about 1 significant bug > per day and doing at least one release per day. 10 day old code was missing > at least 10 fixes... ;-) And that was BGP3. BGP4 was the next developer. My favorite line/memory was when we'd get an image from you guys, with the tag: Confidence level: Boots in the lab :) -b
Re: coprorations using BGP for advertising prefixes in mid-1990s
On May 12, 2011, at 2:37 PM, Kevin Oberman wrote: > Does no one remember EGP? ASNs are MUCH older than BGP. And we were > using BGPv3 prior to the existence of V4. We used BGPv4 back in the days > when Tony Li would chastise us for reporting a bug in a 10 day old Cisco > build saying that we could not expect BGPv4 code over a week old to > work. He felt that we should deploy new code daily. To be fair, that was for folks on the isp-geeks mailing list, who were effectively doing alpha test with me. I was fixing about 1 significant bug per day and doing at least one release per day. 10 day old code was missing at least 10 fixes... ;-) And that was BGP3. BGP4 was the next developer. Regards, Tony
Re: coprorations using BGP for advertising prefixes in mid-1990s
My name is Cathy and I used to EGP. :-) wow that's a blast from the past. In the late 80s the NSFNet used EGP. That's why the RADB came to be. EGP only tolerated one route to any destination. Otherwise lots of fun loops. :-) Kevin, when I configured ESNet to go from EGP to BGP (in the early 90s) we hit what I call a Yakov limit. We were like the 64th BGP peer and the NSFNET shut down completely. It was a total riot. Thanks for the memories! Cathy On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 3:37 PM, Kevin Oberman wrote: > > Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 17:15:17 -0400 > > From: Dorn Hetzel > > > > > > > > > > > The actual number would be considerably smaller as there were large > > > (for some definition of large) block assignments of ASNs <~1000 or so > > > to various academic networking entities such as NSFNet and regional > > > networks as well as other Federal/Military networking organisations. > > > > > > -dorian > > > > > > > > Well, for one data point, I was issued 3492 around Spring of 1994. > > > > Does no one remember EGP? ASNs are MUCH older than BGP. And we were > using BGPv3 prior to the existence of V4. We used BGPv4 back in the days > when Tony Li would chastise us for reporting a bug in a 10 day old Cisco > build saying that we could not expect BGPv4 code over a week old to > work. He felt that we should deploy new code daily. > > The big push was to have v4 available before the old PRDB was frozen by > Merit/NSFnet. (And, who remembers the PRDB?) > -- > R. Kevin Oberman, Network Engineer > Energy Sciences Network (ESnet) > Ernest O. Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (Berkeley Lab) > E-mail: ober...@es.net Phone: +1 510 486-8634 > Key fingerprint:059B 2DDF 031C 9BA3 14A4 EADA 927D EBB3 987B 3751 > >
Re: coprorations using BGP for advertising prefixes in mid-1990s
On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 3:44 PM, Jay Ashworth wrote: > - Original Message - >> From: "Valdis Kletnieks" > >> On Thu, 12 May 2011 14:53:53 CDT, Michael Sabino said: >> > If you are a big corporation, and it is 1995, how likely is it that >> > you'll utilize bgp for advertising your address space to the internet? >> >> Well, we got AS1312 sometime before 1996 (the *last changed* timestamp is >> 19960207), that sort of implies that 1311 other organizations were grabbing >> AS >> numbers before that. And since an AS number has no real use for anything >> other >> than BGP, that implies some 1,300 organizations doing BGP in the 1995 >> timeframe. > > I myself inferred that he meant "large end-user corporations whose primary > line of business was *not* being a network provider". Large end-user companies generally multihomed by that time, and you generally did that by BGP4 at the time (post-1994), and before that BGP3, and before that EGP, and before that... well, there was little "commercial ISPness" other than NSFNet connectivity and the regional networks back then so multihoming was somewhat of a moot point. Thank you again, UUNet/Alternet and PSI! -- -george william herbert george.herb...@gmail.com
Re: coprorations using BGP for advertising prefixes in mid-1990s
- Original Message - > From: "Valdis Kletnieks" > On Thu, 12 May 2011 14:53:53 CDT, Michael Sabino said: > > If you are a big corporation, and it is 1995, how likely is it that > > you'll utilize bgp for advertising your address space to the internet? > > Well, we got AS1312 sometime before 1996 (the *last changed* timestamp is > 19960207), that sort of implies that 1311 other organizations were grabbing AS > numbers before that. And since an AS number has no real use for anything other > than BGP, that implies some 1,300 organizations doing BGP in the 1995 > timeframe. I myself inferred that he meant "large end-user corporations whose primary line of business was *not* being a network provider". Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink j...@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274
Re: coprorations using BGP for advertising prefixes in mid-1990s
On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 2:58 PM, Dorn Hetzel wrote: >> >> Does no one remember EGP? ASNs are MUCH older than BGP. And we were >> using BGPv3 prior to the existence of V4. We used BGPv4 back in the days >> when Tony Li would chastise us for reporting a bug in a 10 day old Cisco >> build saying that we could not expect BGPv4 code over a week old to >> work. He felt that we should deploy new code daily. >> >> The big push was to have v4 available before the old PRDB was frozen by >> Merit/NSFnet. (And, who remembers the PRDB?) >> -- >> > > I caught the trailing edge of V3. I remember announcing 129 prefixes to > Sprintlink, one for our B, and 128 for our /17 from C-space :) Flashbacks to 1993-4 all over again. -- -george william herbert george.herb...@gmail.com
Re: coprorations using BGP for advertising prefixes in mid-1990s
> > Does no one remember EGP? ASNs are MUCH older than BGP. And we were > using BGPv3 prior to the existence of V4. We used BGPv4 back in the days > when Tony Li would chastise us for reporting a bug in a 10 day old Cisco > build saying that we could not expect BGPv4 code over a week old to > work. He felt that we should deploy new code daily. > > The big push was to have v4 available before the old PRDB was frozen by > Merit/NSFnet. (And, who remembers the PRDB?) > -- > I caught the trailing edge of V3. I remember announcing 129 prefixes to Sprintlink, one for our B, and 128 for our /17 from C-space :)
Re: coprorations using BGP for advertising prefixes in mid-1990s
> Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 17:15:17 -0400 > From: Dorn Hetzel > > > > > > > The actual number would be considerably smaller as there were large > > (for some definition of large) block assignments of ASNs <~1000 or so > > to various academic networking entities such as NSFNet and regional > > networks as well as other Federal/Military networking organisations. > > > > -dorian > > > > > Well, for one data point, I was issued 3492 around Spring of 1994. > Does no one remember EGP? ASNs are MUCH older than BGP. And we were using BGPv3 prior to the existence of V4. We used BGPv4 back in the days when Tony Li would chastise us for reporting a bug in a 10 day old Cisco build saying that we could not expect BGPv4 code over a week old to work. He felt that we should deploy new code daily. The big push was to have v4 available before the old PRDB was frozen by Merit/NSFnet. (And, who remembers the PRDB?) -- R. Kevin Oberman, Network Engineer Energy Sciences Network (ESnet) Ernest O. Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (Berkeley Lab) E-mail: ober...@es.net Phone: +1 510 486-8634 Key fingerprint:059B 2DDF 031C 9BA3 14A4 EADA 927D EBB3 987B 3751
Re: coprorations using BGP for advertising prefixes in mid-1990s
> > > The actual number would be considerably smaller as there were large > (for some definition of large) block assignments of ASNs <~1000 or so > to various academic networking entities such as NSFNet and regional > networks as well as other Federal/Military networking organisations. > > -dorian > > Well, for one data point, I was issued 3492 around Spring of 1994.
Re: coprorations using BGP for advertising prefixes in mid-1990s
On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 04:21:59PM -0400, valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote: > On Thu, 12 May 2011 14:53:53 CDT, Michael Sabino said: > > If you are a big corporation, and it is 1995, how likely is it that you'll > > utilize bgp for advertising your address space to the internet? > > Well, we got AS1312 sometime before 1996 (the *last changed* timestamp is > 19960207), that sort of implies that 1311 other organizations were grabbing AS > numbers before that. And since an AS number has no real use for anything > other > than BGP, that implies some 1,300 organizations doing BGP in the 1995 > timeframe. The actual number would be considerably smaller as there were large (for some definition of large) block assignments of ASNs <~1000 or so to various academic networking entities such as NSFNet and regional networks as well as other Federal/Military networking organisations. -dorian
Re: coprorations using BGP for advertising prefixes in mid-1990s
On Thu, 12 May 2011 14:53:53 CDT, Michael Sabino said: > If you are a big corporation, and it is 1995, how likely is it that you'll > utilize bgp for advertising your address space to the internet? Well, we got AS1312 sometime before 1996 (the *last changed* timestamp is 19960207), that sort of implies that 1311 other organizations were grabbing AS numbers before that. And since an AS number has no real use for anything other than BGP, that implies some 1,300 organizations doing BGP in the 1995 timeframe. Look to see who got the first 1000 or 1500 or so AS numbers, that's who was doing BGP back then. pgpL6bqkrWQf8.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: coprorations using BGP for advertising prefixes in mid-1990s
On May 12, 2011, at 12:53 PM, Michael Sabino wrote: > If you are a big corporation, and it is 1995, how likely is it that you'll > utilize bgp for advertising your address space to the internet? > > Thanks, > Michael Sabino Big? Very. Matthew Kaufman
coprorations using BGP for advertising prefixes in mid-1990s
If you are a big corporation, and it is 1995, how likely is it that you'll utilize bgp for advertising your address space to the internet? Thanks, Michael Sabino
