[neonixie-l] Re: Databook for Futaba VFD displays?

[andybiker]

Hi Martin,

This seems to be a bare VFD, the elektor article gives the pinout and a 
fair guess at how to drive the filement.

I'm not sure you'll find a full datasheet due to the age.

treat it as any other VFD.

Cheers,
Andrew

On Wednesday, January 31, 2024 at 6:58:53 PM UTC Dekatron42 wrote:

> I've Googled some and haven't been able to find a databook for Futaba VFD 
> displays, does anyone know where I can download a PDF?
>
> I'm right now interested in finding a datasheet for the 10*14 pixels 
> display DM-4Z 2E that is used in the Elektor June 1983 article "Spectrum 
> display".
>
> /Martin
>

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Slightly OT: Where do I find the black woven tape used in electronics?

[andybiker]

Search on Amazon for "car wiring tape" or "car harness tape"
It's sticky on one side, cloth on the other to stop all those rattles in 
cars!
good stuff.

On Sunday, December 10, 2023 at 3:36:58 PM UTC Ron Walsh wrote:

> What you describes sounds a lot like wiring harness tape.  It is 
> impregnated with an adhesive, but it is not thick like in the pictures.  I 
> used it on the wiring on my ancient MGB.
>
> ...Semper Fidelis...
>
>
> https://www.amazon.com/Automotive-Harness-Wrapping-Adhesive-Damping/dp/B07Y9VTPTF
> On Sunday, December 10, 2023 at 10:22:23 AM EST, Adrian Godwin <
> artg...@gmail.com> wrote: 
>
>
> I remember a type of insulating tape from before PVC and more specialist 
> tapes became common. 
> It was a cloth tape impregnated with a black adhesive somewhat like tar. 
> The adhesive went all through though maybe one side was a bit wetter than 
> the other. The result when wound tightly was quite water resistant water 
> would bead up on it, and there was enough free adhesive that you could 
> smear it over and seal the surface completely.
> This would have been about 1968 or so. 
>
> I'm afraid I don't know where to get it but I'd search for cloth tape, 
> cloth tar tape maybe.
>
> On Sun, Dec 10, 2023 at 2:21 PM Dekatron42  wrote:
>
> Pictures below from a new similar type of tape taken from my computer as I 
> didn't have the old equipment available.
>
> [image: IMG_7699 - kopia.JPG]
>
> [image: IMG_7700 - kopia.JPG]
>
> On Sunday 10 December 2023 at 15:02:10 UTC+1 Jeffry Portell wrote:
>
> Gaffer's tape usually works well.
>
> On Sun, Dec 10, 2023 at 7:44 AM J Forbes  wrote:
>
> Pictures of what you are talking about are always helpful. I can't quite 
> imagine what it might be.
>
>
>
> On Sunday, December 10, 2023 at 6:30:39 AM UTC-7 Dekatron42 wrote:
>
> I've been trying to find the black woven tape used to tape connectors to 
> each other to keep them connected and it is also use to tape cables down to 
> the casing.
>
> I am restoring some old electronics equipment where this tape has been 
> used but the glue used on the tape has dried over the years and the tape 
> has come loose.
>
> There are thousands upon thousands of different tapes to be bought at 
> places like Digikey and Mouser but I just don't know where to start and I 
> hope that someone here can point me in the right direction.
>
> /Martin
>
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Re: [neonixie-l] An odd, but interesting observation

[andybiker]

Hi Nick,

With the half life of Krypton 85 and the amount left since 1983 (date on 
data sheet) you'd have to break at least 12,000 nixies at the same time.

If I had that many and broke them, it would be a very bad day indeed.

On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 4:04:06 PM UTC+1 Nicholas Stock wrote:

> Paul, that's a great note...although if I broke 750 of them at one go, I'd 
> be more pissed at that than a little bit of Krypton85 in the air LOL.
>
> On Thu, Oct 12, 2023 at 7:54 AM Paul Andrews  wrote:
>
>> There is a note about the safe handling and storage of tubes containing 
>> Krypton 85 at the end of this page 
>> https://www.nixies.us/bwg_gallery/122p224/
>>
>> On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 10:54:42 AM UTC-4 Nicholas Stock wrote:
>>
>>> Well, alas, most of that is now Rubidium (Kr85 half life is about 10.5 
>>> yrs), so you'll need to give those tubes a little extra push now... :)
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Nick
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 11, 2023 at 7:48 AM jb-electronics <
>>> webm...@jb-electronics.de> wrote:
>>>
 PS: Make that "Krypton 85"

 On 2023-10-11 10:48 a.m., jb-electronics wrote:

 Interesting indeed! Could be, especially given the fact that some 
 Burroughts tubes have Radon 85 in them to help them ionize in the dark. 
 Seems to be the same idea? Jens

 On 2023-10-09 9:43 p.m., cm...@zeusprune.ca wrote:

 To:
 neoni...@googlegroups.com, Rob B  


 On 2023-10-09 11:22, Rob B wrote: 

 When I was a kid [~50 yrs ago], I had several power strips with NE-2 
 indicators, where the indicator starting flicker and then eventually 
 failed.  I noticed that when sunlight hit the NE-2s, they lit more 
 solidly: 
 flickering converted to solid, and off converted to flickering.  I always 
 assumed it was the energy from the sun's photons that was adding just 
 enough joules to the equation to push failing bulbs back over their 
 ionization threshold.  Same effect, probably? 


 which is the reason behind some neon stuff having a small amount of 
 radioactivity added.  helps kick off the Ionization. 

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[neonixie-l] Re: Silly panaplex repair

[andybiker]

Well done!
Nothing silly about it!

On Monday, July 3, 2023 at 1:46:19 PM UTC+1 Audrey wrote:

> If it works it works!

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[neonixie-l] Re: Tubes failing with internal digit-anode shorts (Burroughs B5750s)

[andybiker]

 Jamie,

I have had exactly this problem with these B5750 tubes!
I'm glad it's not just me.
I've had 7 open circuit, I had 4 shorted to another digit, I had another 
tube with a resistance between two digits - not a full short!
These were also on boards that had a lot of hours on them and looked a 
little physically beaten up.
Out of 8 tubes, 4 had faults.
These were on two boards multiplexed with a wierd DTL decoder (with 
inverted binary) and 1960s pcb.

Cheers,
Andrew


On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 10:14:50 PM UTC James Montgomerie wrote:

> Hey folks,
>
> Been lurking for years, but just joined properly now. I designed and made 
> a clock myself a few years ago, using Burroughs B5750s on ‘original’ 
> vintage carrier cards (pics attached, though I don’t think they’re 
> important to the question I have). The clocks have been working for a year 
> or two (and the pictures show them when they were working), but they have 
> started to fail in a way that surprises me. 
>
> The anode resistors burn out and (unsurprisingly) the displays stop 
> working. Analyzing at the components after a failure, the thing that sticks 
> out to me is that the tubes themselves seem to have shorts in them. In one 
> case, the ‘0’ has shorted to the anode. In another case the ‘4’ has shorted 
> to the anode. Given this I think what must be happening is that the tubes 
> develop these shorts, this causes too much current to be drawn when these 
> numbers are meant to be illuminated, and in turn this causes the anode 
> resistor to burn out. 
>
> Sometimes, before the failure, multiple numbers light at once, and/or the 
> front of the tubes get silvered, but I’m not sure this is related. I think 
> the multiple-numbers-at-once might be being caused by the ground-side 
> control circuitry having to sink too much current from the short.
>
> The repair is easy - replace the tube and anode resistor, but I’d like to 
> understand the problem better and perhaps prevent it. 
>
> The power supplies seem fine, and both the supply voltage and the voltage 
> across the anode resistor (and, by implication, current - about 2.6mA) are 
> good when the tube and resistor are replaced.
>
> Is a dead short internal to the tube a common fault I should be preparing 
> for? Could it be caused by power surges or the like (in at least one case, 
> the clock seemed to fail immediately after a power cut)? Is it likely that 
> something in my circuit design could be is causing or encouraging this?
>
> Thanks for any help!
> Jamie.
>
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: John Smout...

[andybiker]

I'm really sorry to hear about John.
He and I developed the approximate clock and the pinball time many years 
ago. He had a wonderfully creative mind and his passing is a great loss to 
all of us who knew him.
My thoughts go out to his family and others who knew him.
Andrew.

On Monday, August 8, 2022 at 8:47:33 AM UTC+1 Nick wrote:

> [image: PXL_20220807_120126018.jpg][image: PXL_20220807_121645353.jpg][image: 
> PXL_20220807_121911441.jpg]
>
> On Monday, 8 August 2022 at 08:46:18 UTC+1 neonixie-l wrote:
>
>> It's with a heavy heart that I have to report the passing of my friend 
>> and one of our most creative and generous members, John Smout. John had 
>> been seriously unwell for some time and already outlived his doctors' 
>> predictions.
>>
>> John, apart from being a long-time moderator on this group (as "Nixcited 
>> delighted") was a polymath with interests and contributions in many fields, 
>> from ancient Greek underground temples to pinball machines, music and of 
>> course, nixies.
>>
>> He was a graphics designer by profession, but was also a model maker and 
>> creator, working for films such as Alien (the space suits) and major 
>> organisations including the Science Museum in London.
>>
>> He was generous with his time, wit & expertise and possessed a fearsome 
>> intellect - a quick look round our house revealed 5 of his clocks, not one 
>> of which was "a block with 4 nixies sticking out of it" (he wasn't 
>> impressed with the "ordinary"). His web site, https://www.clock-it.net/, 
>> shows the level of his originality - nothing repeated, all original. He was 
>> also one of the very earliest, if not the first, to come up with the idea 
>> of an "approximate clock" using alphanumeric VFDs and was always interested 
>> in the visually unexpected.
>>
>> All those that had the pleasure of knowing John will miss him greatly.
>>
>> Nick de Smith
>>
>> (please excuse the rather poor quality of the photos below - they were 
>> taken quickly...)
>>
>> [image: PXL_20220807_115931190.jpg][image: PXL_20220807_120112968.jpg]
>>
>

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Re: [neonixie-l] Another half of nixie

[andybiker]

I think these match the XN3 - looking at the coarse mesh.

Somewhere I have a couple of upside-down nixies that came from a scale.

They are in poor condition with corroded leads (but working)

They show 1/8, 1/4, 3/8, 1/2, 5/8, 3/4, 7/8

really unusual!

Andrew
On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 10:00:53 PM UTC+1 Terry Bowman wrote:

>
> On Jul 21, 2022, at 4:48 PM, 'Bogdan Paduraru' via neonixie-l <
> neoni...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> Just want to share one of my latest finds 
> XNS 6839 from HIVAC that  show only 1/2 sign
>
>
> Good score. I'm insanely jealous and have nothing to trade. 8D
>
>
> Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
> "The Mac Doctor"
>
> https://www.astarcloseup.com
>
> "Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out 
> of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm 
> for science intact."—Carl Sagan, *Psychology Today*, 1996
>
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: Multiplexing tubes with 1 x K155ID1 vs 2 x K155ID1?

[andybiker]

It's also worth mentioning that with a multiplexed design it's easy to dim 
the tubes for a dark room and obviously extend the life.
I have a bedroom arduino-based clock that has 4x NL5780 multiplexed.
The brightness auto-dims so that it's nice at night (and at a level that 
would be invisible during the day) and then is bright during the day. 

On Tuesday, July 13, 2021 at 6:28:29 AM UTC+1 owen.cra...@gmail.com wrote:

> Makes perfect sense. Thank you for the explanation. Think I'll be going 
> down the direct drive route for my designs.
>
> On Tuesday, 13 July 2021 at 14:43:30 UTC+10 gregebert wrote:
>
>> If you use 1 decoder for 6 tubes, the duty-cycle is 1/6 and it will 
>> require more current to get the same brightness as a tube with a higher 
>> duty-cycle. So, if you use 2 decoders, the duty-cycle is 1/3 and the peak 
>> current will be less vs 1/6 duty cycle.
>>
>> Personally, I never multiplex tubes because it requires more current per 
>> tube, and the wearout mechanism for tubes (sputtering), increases 
>> exponentially with current. In my opinion, IC's are cheap and readily 
>> available whereas nixies are much more expensive and getting harder to 
>> find, so it makes the most sense to drive the tube as gently as possible, 
>> ie direct-drive, to prolong their life.
>>
>> On Monday, July 12, 2021 at 8:00:07 PM UTC-7 owen.cra...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> A little but of a noob question, though looking around at different 
>>> multiplex clock designs, I see that some setups opt for 2 x K155ID1and 
>>> others only have 1.
>>>
>>> A classic example with 2 x drivers would be: 
>>> http://www.arduinix.com/Main/Gallery.htm
>>>
>>> Then I find others with just 1 x drivers: 
>>> https://www.instructables.com/simple-user-adjustable-DIY-Nixie-Clock/
>>> And: https://www.nixieclock.biz/StoreClassicRev5.html
>>>
>>> Why is this the case? I have also seen similar sketch codes to drive 
>>> both single and double drivers, so I am wondering what the decision process 
>>> around this is and if it's even necessary to have 2 drivers to begin with?
>>>
>>

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[neonixie-l] Re: Fair price for Burroughs!

[andybiker]

Seems a fair price.
The tubes seem "well used" (silvered) and some not nicely stored.
Remember that these were an easily replaceable item at the time and were 
often over-driven in equipment to get more brightness.
I have 6 of these in a clock that is direct-drive and has been running 24/7 
since about 2001.
The tubes were used when I had them and they still look better than these 
on ebay!
These are specified as "ultra long life" - about 200,000 hours - over 20 
years. 

On Tuesday, July 13, 2021 at 4:36:06 AM UTC+1 martin martin wrote:

>
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/302978807273?hash=item468af1b5e9:g:8nIAAOSwctJcAaHO
>
> (not mine). I have enough tubes for a while...
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: ZM1032 - Dual Anode

[andybiker]

Multiplexing isn't needed.

There are several old documents showing how to drive these.

This has been discussed here too - search fo bi-quinary nixie

If driven from the "old faithful" 74141, do not connect the LSB (or 1s), 
and use this bit to select the correct anode.

This could be as easy as a pair of optocouplers.

Best of luck, they look like nice tubes.

On Tuesday, September 22, 2020 at 9:33:08 AM UTC+1 Richard Scales wrote:

> Biquinery is (I think) the correct term, an attempt to reduce the required 
> pin count though as you observe, some form of multiplexing is required to 
> make them work.
> - RIchard
>
>
> On Monday, 21 September 2020 at 15:01:36 UTC+1 J Forbes wrote:
>
>> Looks like the ZM1030, I have a couple of them. I had an idea to use them 
>> for the all tube digital clock (which currently uses "thermometer" display, 
>> it's built from an old Beckman counter), but I don't have the brain power 
>> to figure out how to do it.
>>
>> On Monday, September 21, 2020 at 6:09:02 AM UTC-7 martin martin wrote:
>>
>>> I was building up a two-digit Nixie thermometer with leftover tubes I 
>>> found I a box
>>> To my surprise, the ZM1032 has dual anodes.  Designed for multiplexing.  
>>> I am using direct drives.
>>>
>>> I have two of them if anyone can use em!
>>>
>>>
>>>

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Re: [neonixie-l] OT - 20 chr VFDs >blech

[andybiker]

Hi John,
The scans you posted answer all of the questions.
There is no "display controller" as you'd expect from the modern "fruit 
machine" displays.
All we have on the board is latches and level shifters.
pins 16,18,19 control a shift register (TL5812) to select the digit 
position to display (both displays selected at the same time)
there are then 4 latches - 2 for segments on top display, 2 for segments on 
bottom display
These latch the 8 bit data bus (pins 4 to 11) to each level shifter.
the first 3 latches are internal to an 8255 (antique i/o port that I last 
used in the early 80s) - selected with /A7 (pin3) low , /SEL4 (pin 13) low 
and /WR (pin1) low /RD (pin 2) HIGH
A0 and A1 (pins 14 + 15) select which one of the 3 latches to use (and 
initialise the 8255)
As this part only has 3 latches and we need 4, an extra latch has been 
bolted on in the form of IC2 (74ls273)
This is selected with /SEL4 (pin 13) low, /A7 (pin 3) HIGH, /WR (pin1) low
(I think reset should be kept high - need to check data sheets)
Supplies are 47v, 5v, 4.5vAC for the filament.

Data sheets are available for all of these chips.
I suspect that driving one is "a full time job" for something like a simple 
arduino.

I hope my ramblings help someone,
Cheers,
Andrew


On Tuesday, June 4, 2019 at 9:52:24 AM UTC+1, Nixcited delighted wrote:
>
> I now have my displays and the schematic.
>
> I have scanned relevant manual pages, power supply, interconnect, display 
> board and component identification.
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/bltgd4w4o9gonuy/Alvin_G_Display.zip?dl=0
>
> John S
>

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Re: [neonixie-l] OT - 20 chr VFDs >blech

[andybiker]

Shwmae But.

Hi John, I'm here!
Looking at the picture of the display it looks like a parallel interface of 
some kind.
There's a micro and ram on the board. 
I wonder if it's compatible with another pinball display ?
Unlike the newer displays these do not appear to have any power supply 
onboard so will need filament, HV and logic supplies.
You may be lucky and find there's a serial input - that would be the 
simplest.

Andrew

On Wednesday, May 22, 2019 at 8:32:00 PM UTC+1, Nixcited delighted wrote:
>
> I don’t have a datasheet, nor do I have my displays yet. My main pinball 
> man has drawn a blank on getting me a schematic and he’s been thorough. The 
> manual is available from Marco in the US and the Australian seller also has 
> manuals - https://www.pinballspareparts.com.au 
> 
>
> I have asked the Australian place if they can send me a schematic just for 
> the display. I await their response. If they are good boys they will do me 
> a scan.
>
> Andrew Jardine lurks here - he is good with VFDs such as these. I already 
> suggested I send him a board to play with, but he’s not responded yet with 
> his address. Andrew, where are you boyo? 
>
> Regards,
>
> John S
>
> On 22 May 2019, at 18:13, Jon Jackson > 
> wrote:
>
> John,
>
> I have a couple of these 20-digit VFD displays.  The label says it's a 
> Noritake itran model FG2013A1 display which is listed as discontinued on 
> the Noritake web site.
>
> A search has not come up with a datasheet.  Do you have a copy of the 
> datasheet you could share?
>
> Jon D.
>
>

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[neonixie-l] Nixie driver chips

[andybiker]

I know there were several plasma driver chips used in the early 90s (I have 
some SN751518s used from a laptop neon display)
I have data on these and they are open drain - ideal nixie drivers but 
these chips have been obsolete for years.

Modern-ish plasma televisions use newer chips.
I recently scrapped a plasma tv and it uses SN755870 (I also have a board 
containing SN755881 from a different TV)
These seem to be absolutely made as nixie drivers.
They run off 5v (unlike the supertex devices), have push-pull outputs, any 
output could be 200v or ground.
This could be a universal driver for direct-drive (64 output pins) or 
multiplexed (pins can be set to HT and used as anode drivers)
Does anyone have any data on SN755870 and sn755881 ?
I can find a pinout and that's it.
These chips seen cheap and readily available new or from old TVs
Cheers,
Andrew

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Re: [neonixie-l] checking for radiation Radioactive Nixies - Study

[andybiker]

Regarding radioactive "stuff",
I've had an old clock - about 50mm in diameter that was on an old motorbike 
I bought about 30 years ago.
Research identifies this as from a WW2 German bomber.
It doesn't glow any more but I took it into work to test it with the geiger 
counter (that is used for checking X-ray emission from equipment)
They had only ever heard one or two counts per second.
My clock took it up to 100.

Last week I took in my late father's WW2 compass (Magnetic marching MK1)
The paint on the dial and mirror has gone red. (the radium has burnt the 
phosphor years ago)
The geiger counter went straight up to the top of the scale. 2000 CPS
The room suddenly went VERY quiet.
They started talking then of wrapping this in lead and disposing of it.
I put my compass back in my pocket (I don't want any more kids) and I left, 
people avoiding me as I did so.
It's now back in my garage.
I don't think nixies are as radioactive as this but we should be a little 
wary of anything "pre 60s"

Andrew

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[neonixie-l] Camera Neons

[Andybiker]

About a decade ago I used the *TINY* neons from disposable cameras to make a
fake 'colon' tube - it worked really well.

Now years later I cannot find any, all new disposable cameras use an led.
Does anyone know where I can buy some?

These neons were about 3 mm in diameter and about 4mm long. I cannot find
any this small. The odd thing about them was they needed about 200+v to
light.

Despite these being in a cheap disposable camera the neons are still
perfectly clear after all the years. Does anyone have a source?

Cheers,

Andrew

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Interesting document on Krypton-doped nixies,,,

[andybiker]

Just an idea, what about an old watch/clock face with glow-in-the-dark 
paint on it?
I have an old (ww2 german aircraft) clock that I took to work to check on a 
geiger counter.
My boss insisted I take it straight back home after seeing if showing 100 
counts-per-second.
I think the radioactivity from the original paint should have been easily 
stopped by a piece of paper but apparently  
it decays into other elements that do not.
A piece of paper made no difference. a 40mm thick catalogue made some 
difference, a sheet of aluminium made some difference.
I think it must be giving off a fair cocktail of alpha, beta and gamma.

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: High Voltage from 9V battery trick

[andybiker]

PS,
I've been tempted to use a stack of 2032s in a 'Smarties' tube.
At one UKpound for about 8 (24v worth) then 4 pounds would make a small 96v 
battery.

 Andrew.



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