Re: [NetBehaviour] Postmodernism (tangent) Re:apologies (Brey)
Hi Brey, Thank you for writing. I think there are so many terms - deconstruction is another, phenomenology, critical , and so forth - where the meaning is up for grabs. When I look at Deleuze and Guattari today for example, I get lost in what could only be (I think) metaphoricity itself. It's what makes semantics so fascinating and so irritating at the same time. ... Best, Alan On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 2:00 PM Brey Tucker via NetBehaviour < netbehaviour@lists.netbehaviour.org> wrote: > Alan, > > Quite on the contrary, I think I would enjoy your class very much. Seeing > the full context of your definition for postmodernism was fascinating and I > don't doubt it was a shared concept among a good contingent of > intellectuals. I really liked : > >> Semiotic emissions of symbols which appear sourceless and undirected >> (Disneyland effect). >> > > My, now quite meta, criticism was just that the word "postmodernism" is > awash with many definitions and contexts in what I'll jokingly refer to as > our "modern" times. Even modern-architecture is starting to fray as a > concrete definition. > > I also teach and write, (usually techno babble) to cyberpunks, architects > and engineers, "definitioning" of terms is a verb I often use to ensure the > act of word grounding occurs in the realms of intellectual discourse. It's > a practice that comes from writing code where word interpretation quickly > leads to the mind-body problem and bugs. > > Re:apology > I'm sorry to hear you're having rough times. I hope this too shall pass. > > Cheers, > Brey > > >> -- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2024 12:42:14 -0800 >> From: Brey Tucker >> To: netbehaviour@lists.netbehaviour.org >> Subject: Re: [NetBehaviour] Leonardo vs. Machiavelli: The Mediocrity >> of Evil and a New Saint Genevieve (Brey Tucker) >> Message-ID: >> > mpoce...@mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Greetings, >> >> I just wanted to follow up on Alan's criticism of the word use of >> "postmodernism", which I found to be even more of a misuse of the word >> than >> the more obvious use in Max Herman's piece. Semantic shifts are >> unavoidable >> but just in case it's not widely experienced information... >> Postmodernism's >> word use definitively started in art, as a way to define the departure >> from >> French Impressionism by John Watkins Chapman back in 1870. Its most >> agreeable definitions are in painting and architecture. >> >> Intellectually, in reference to society, I would argue that Max Herman's >> use is still more applicable than South American favelas as the context of >> the piece was centered on "modernity", especially with its identity in >> European culture and democracy, etc. being much closer to the >> original publication of Arnold J. Tynbee's 1939 essay that stated, "Our >> own >> Post-Modern Age has been inaugurated by the general war of 1914-1918". >> >> I would argue any use of the word "postmodern" or such variation of >> "modernity" would require time to define its context as the word use is >> extremely varied now across topics such as hyperreality, simulacrum and >> objective reality. I quite enjoyed the way Max took the time to define it >> and use it, albeit a departure from how I generally conjure postmodernism >> in my mind. >> >> Alan, you're rich with great ideas and interesting conversation but I >> would >> have expected more of a criticism defending Machiavelli's positive >> contributions to society with the need for acceptance of cruel realities >> than this niche use of a common word. >> >> Cheers, >> Brey >> -- >> > >> > Message: 2 >> > Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2024 12:58:07 -0500 >> > From: Alan Sondheim >> > To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity >> > >> > Subject: Re: [NetBehaviour] Leonardo vs. Machiavelli: The Mediocrity >> > of Evil and a New Saint Genevieve >> > Message-ID: >> > > > pi2brr4caymwbe6dskawxhuleabmax87yvkwxboqxcv7...@mail.gmail.com> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> > >> > Hi, >> > >> > Just want to point out I've taught and published and lectured on >> > postmodernism, and videos I co-created with Dawja Burris dealt with the >> > subject in El Paso and Ciudad Juarez and I have no idea how you're using >> > the word or attacking it - it wasn't facetious, it was concerned among >> > other things, with informal economies and South America favelas >> etc.It's a >> > complex socio-economic subject and its effects cover issues such as >> > migration, homelessness, around the world. I just don't think you've >> read >> > deeply into the subject; for example scientific methodology was an >> integral >> > part of the discussion. >> > >> > - Best, Alan >> > >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2024 16:46:55 -0500 >> From: Alan Sondheim >> To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity >> >> Subject: Re: [NetBehaviour]
Re: [NetBehaviour] Postmodernism (tangent) Re:apologies (Brey)
Alan, Quite on the contrary, I think I would enjoy your class very much. Seeing the full context of your definition for postmodernism was fascinating and I don't doubt it was a shared concept among a good contingent of intellectuals. I really liked : > Semiotic emissions of symbols which appear sourceless and undirected > (Disneyland effect). > My, now quite meta, criticism was just that the word "postmodernism" is awash with many definitions and contexts in what I'll jokingly refer to as our "modern" times. Even modern-architecture is starting to fray as a concrete definition. I also teach and write, (usually techno babble) to cyberpunks, architects and engineers, "definitioning" of terms is a verb I often use to ensure the act of word grounding occurs in the realms of intellectual discourse. It's a practice that comes from writing code where word interpretation quickly leads to the mind-body problem and bugs. Re:apology I'm sorry to hear you're having rough times. I hope this too shall pass. Cheers, Brey > -- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2024 12:42:14 -0800 > From: Brey Tucker > To: netbehaviour@lists.netbehaviour.org > Subject: Re: [NetBehaviour] Leonardo vs. Machiavelli: The Mediocrity > of Evil and a New Saint Genevieve (Brey Tucker) > Message-ID: > mpoce...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Greetings, > > I just wanted to follow up on Alan's criticism of the word use of > "postmodernism", which I found to be even more of a misuse of the word than > the more obvious use in Max Herman's piece. Semantic shifts are unavoidable > but just in case it's not widely experienced information... Postmodernism's > word use definitively started in art, as a way to define the departure from > French Impressionism by John Watkins Chapman back in 1870. Its most > agreeable definitions are in painting and architecture. > > Intellectually, in reference to society, I would argue that Max Herman's > use is still more applicable than South American favelas as the context of > the piece was centered on "modernity", especially with its identity in > European culture and democracy, etc. being much closer to the > original publication of Arnold J. Tynbee's 1939 essay that stated, "Our own > Post-Modern Age has been inaugurated by the general war of 1914-1918". > > I would argue any use of the word "postmodern" or such variation of > "modernity" would require time to define its context as the word use is > extremely varied now across topics such as hyperreality, simulacrum and > objective reality. I quite enjoyed the way Max took the time to define it > and use it, albeit a departure from how I generally conjure postmodernism > in my mind. > > Alan, you're rich with great ideas and interesting conversation but I would > have expected more of a criticism defending Machiavelli's positive > contributions to society with the need for acceptance of cruel realities > than this niche use of a common word. > > Cheers, > Brey > -- > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2024 12:58:07 -0500 > > From: Alan Sondheim > > To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity > > > > Subject: Re: [NetBehaviour] Leonardo vs. Machiavelli: The Mediocrity > > of Evil and a New Saint Genevieve > > Message-ID: > > > pi2brr4caymwbe6dskawxhuleabmax87yvkwxboqxcv7...@mail.gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > Hi, > > > > Just want to point out I've taught and published and lectured on > > postmodernism, and videos I co-created with Dawja Burris dealt with the > > subject in El Paso and Ciudad Juarez and I have no idea how you're using > > the word or attacking it - it wasn't facetious, it was concerned among > > other things, with informal economies and South America favelas etc.It's > a > > complex socio-economic subject and its effects cover issues such as > > migration, homelessness, around the world. I just don't think you've read > > deeply into the subject; for example scientific methodology was an > integral > > part of the discussion. > > > > - Best, Alan > > > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2024 16:46:55 -0500 > From: Alan Sondheim > To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity > > Subject: Re: [NetBehaviour] Leonardo vs. Machiavelli: The Mediocrity > of Evil and a New Saint Genevieve (Brey Tucker) > Message-ID: > sr4trgmkyccsh...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Hi Brey, > > I'm sorry you found it a misuse. You'll find references to Toynbee and > social movements; I don't have the references here at this point, but some > were from Latin America. It was used widely to indicate social movements > and informal economies as well as cultural transformations. For you there > are agreeable definitions, they aren't for me. When I taught postmodernism > (and I'm sure you'd find the course a horror)
