Re: 8.0 BETA: touchpad taps occur while typing

[Mayuresh]

On Fri, Jun 16, 2017 at 02:11:49PM +0700, Robert Elz wrote:
> I guess you use click to focus, I don't, if the mouse pointer moves from
> one window into another for me, typing goes along with it, so just moving
> is an issue.   Fortunately for me it is a rare problem, I don't spend all
> that much time typing on planes, trains, or automobiles...

Basically, my WM requires click to focus. But my great touchpad device -
NetBSD duo obliges me with clicks where least needed.

E.g. if I am typing email, suddenly the mail text starts replacing To
field and so on.

I use only fullscreen maximization for every application. (My wm is
ratpoison.) So the false clicks at least do not fall in some other
application. Nevertheless it's still a problem - even with simplest of the
use cases of typing in vi in an xterm.

Mayuresh.

Re: 8.0 BETA: touchpad taps occur while typing

[Robert Elz]

Date:Fri, 16 Jun 2017 11:09:37 +0530
From:Mayuresh 
Message-ID:  <20170616053937.ga19...@warunjikardental.com>

  | While that sounds a good idea, for now I will be content even if touchpad
  | is allowed to move the pointer due to accidental hand touch, as long is it
  | doesn't produce a tap or click or double click  signal that interferes
  | with typing, worse it changes the frame or window in which I am typing.

I guess you use click to focus, I don't, if the mouse pointer moves from
one window into another for me, typing goes along with it, so just moving
is an issue.   Fortunately for me it is a rare problem, I don't spend all
that much time typing on planes, trains, or automobiles...

kre

Re: 8.0 BETA: touchpad taps occur while typing

[Mayuresh]

On Fri, Jun 16, 2017 at 12:32:32PM +0700, Robert Elz wrote:
> I had also wondered about the possibility of having the pms driver simply
> ignore mouse input when typing - perhaps by simply ignoring anything received
> from the mouse in the the next N milliseconds after a keystroke.

While that sounds a good idea, for now I will be content even if touchpad
is allowed to move the pointer due to accidental hand touch, as long is it
doesn't produce a tap or click or double click  signal that interferes
with typing, worse it changes the frame or window in which I am typing.

Mayuresh

Re: 8.0 BETA: touchpad taps occur while typing

[Robert Elz]

Date:Fri, 16 Jun 2017 09:37:04 +0530
From:Mayuresh 
Message-ID:  <20170616040704.ga18...@warunjikardental.com>

  | For x11, Linux sources simply mean xorg.

Perhaps, but it is not impossible that they are doing something to it
as part of device setup way before X comes near.

Note: I am just guessing...

I had also wondered about the possibility of having the pms driver simply
ignore mouse input when typing - perhaps by simply ignoring anything received
from the mouse in the the next N milliseconds after a keystroke.

Aside from the touchpad problem, this could also help with using a regular
mouse in an unstable environment (like in a moving vehicle) - when there is
a hand available to hold the mouse, there's no problem, but while typing,
the idiot rodent likes to move around all by itself...

A sysctl setting (default 0), in units of ms, or perhaps centi-seconds (or
even deci-seconds) that would allow users to tailor it  to suite their own
typing speed/accuracy might just be of benefit, and it should be fairly
easy to do - at least for devices connected via the pms driver, not sure
how to extend it to UBC connected devices, but wsmux might help ??

kre

Re: 8.0 BETA: touchpad taps occur while typing

[Mayuresh]

On Fri, Jun 16, 2017 at 10:32:49AM +0700, Robert Elz wrote:
> Most likely for your touchpad synaptics mode is enabled by sending it
> some magic string.   You might be able to find out from the linux sources
> as they apparently manage to enable synaptics mode for it.

For x11, Linux sources simply mean xorg. I can try that. In the meantime
sharing what xorg says about mouse on Linux, just in case it drops any
hint:

[40.625] (==) intel(0): Silken mouse enabled
[41.892] (II) LoadModule: "synaptics"
[41.893] (II) Loading /usr/lib/xorg/modules/input/synaptics_drv.so
[41.958] (II) Module synaptics: vendor="X.Org Foundation"
[41.958] (II) Using input driver 'synaptics' for 'FocalTechPS/2 FocalTech 
FocalTech Touchpad'
[41.984] (II) synaptics: FocalTechPS/2 FocalTech FocalTech Touchpad: found 
clickpad property
[41.984] (--) synaptics: FocalTechPS/2 FocalTech FocalTech Touchpad: x-axis 
range 0 - 2944 (res 0)
[41.985] (--) synaptics: FocalTechPS/2 FocalTech FocalTech Touchpad: y-axis 
range 0 - 1664 (res 0)
[41.985] (II) synaptics: FocalTechPS/2 FocalTech FocalTech Touchpad: device 
does not report pressure, will use touch data.
[41.985] (II) synaptics: FocalTechPS/2 FocalTech FocalTech Touchpad: device 
does not report finger width.
[41.985] (--) synaptics: FocalTechPS/2 FocalTech FocalTech Touchpad: 
buttons: left double triple
[41.985] (--) synaptics: FocalTechPS/2 FocalTech FocalTech Touchpad: Vendor 
0x2 Product 0x12
[41.985] (--) synaptics: FocalTechPS/2 FocalTech FocalTech Touchpad: 
invalid pressure range.  defaulting to 0 - 255
[41.985] (--) synaptics: FocalTechPS/2 FocalTech FocalTech Touchpad: 
invalid finger width range.  defaulting to 0 - 15
[41.986] (--) synaptics: FocalTechPS/2 FocalTech FocalTech Touchpad: 
touchpad found
[42.053] (**) synaptics: FocalTechPS/2 FocalTech FocalTech Touchpad: 
(accel) MinSpeed is now constant deceleration 2.5
[42.053] (**) synaptics: FocalTechPS/2 FocalTech FocalTech Touchpad: 
(accel) MaxSpeed is now 1.75
[42.053] (**) synaptics: FocalTechPS/2 FocalTech FocalTech Touchpad: 
(accel) AccelFactor is now 0.059
[42.054] (--) synaptics: FocalTechPS/2 FocalTech FocalTech Touchpad: 
touchpad found
[42.056] (II) config/udev: Adding input device FocalTechPS/2 FocalTech 
FocalTech Touchpad (/dev/input/mouse0)


Mayuresh.

Re: 8.0 BETA: touchpad taps occur while typing

[Robert Elz]

Date:Fri, 16 Jun 2017 08:32:07 +0530
From:Mayuresh 
Message-ID:  <20170616030207.ga17...@warunjikardental.com>

  | Tried forcing synaptics detection by commenting this block.
  | Now synaptics is "detected", but it does not work.

Most likely for your touchpad synaptics mode is enabled by sending it
some magic string.   You might be able to find out from the linux sources
as they apparently manage to enable synaptics mode for it.

kre

Re: 8.0 BETA: touchpad taps occur while typing

[Mayuresh]

On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 04:46:22PM +0200, Manuel Bouyer wrote:
> > /* Probe for synaptics touchpad. */
> > if (pms_synaptics_probe_init(sc) == 0) { // made this if(1)
> > sc->protocol = PMS_SYNAPTICS;
> > } else
> 
> not surprising. you should look what is happening in 
> pms_synaptics_probe_init()
> instead.

Tried forcing synaptics detection by commenting this block.

/*if (resp[1] != SYNAPTICS_MAGIC_BYTE) {
aprint_debug_dev(psc->sc_dev, 
"synaptics_probe: Not synaptics.\n");
res = 1;
goto doreset;
}*/

Now synaptics is "detected", but it does not work.

There are continuous "out of sync" errors:

pms0: pms_input: 0x00 out of sync
pms0: pms_input: 0xff out of sync
pms0: pms_input: 0x28 out of sync
pms0: pms_input: 0x0b out of sync
pms0: pms_input: 0xfc out of sync
pms0: pms_input: 0x08 out of sync
pms0: pms_input: 0x02 out of sync
pms0: pms_input: 0x11 out of sync
pms0: pms_input: 0x08 out of sync
...

What shall I try next?

Mayuresh.

Re: 8.0 BETA: touchpad taps occur while typing

[Manuel Bouyer]

On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 11:37:13PM +0530, Mayuresh wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 04:46:22PM +0200, Manuel Bouyer wrote:
> > not surprising. you should look what is happening in 
> > pms_synaptics_probe_init()
> > instead.
> 
> Sorry for a naive question: How do I see messages printed by
> aprint_debug_dev?
> 
> Tried booting with -x as well as -v and looked in dmesg. synaptics
> messages didn't appear there.

boot -x should show them.

-- 
Manuel Bouyer 
 NetBSD: 26 ans d'experience feront toujours la difference
--

Re: 8.0 BETA: touchpad taps occur while typing

[Mayuresh]

On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 04:46:22PM +0200, Manuel Bouyer wrote:
> not surprising. you should look what is happening in 
> pms_synaptics_probe_init()
> instead.

Sorry for a naive question: How do I see messages printed by
aprint_debug_dev?

Tried booting with -x as well as -v and looked in dmesg. synaptics
messages didn't appear there.

Mayuresh

Re: 8.0 BETA: touchpad taps occur while typing

[Manuel Bouyer]

On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 08:11:06PM +0530, Mayuresh wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 11:05:20AM +0200, Manuel Bouyer wrote:
> > It's probably a newer synaptics hardware, which may need a different code.
> > It needs to be looked at.
> > BTW the code is in src/sys/dev/pckbport/, look at pms* and synaptics*
> 
> I tried hacking the condition below to force-detect synaptics, but then I
> found keyboard wasn't working on booting with this kernel.
> 
> /* Probe for synaptics touchpad. */
> if (pms_synaptics_probe_init(sc) == 0) { // made this if(1)
> sc->protocol = PMS_SYNAPTICS;
> } else

not surprising. you should look what is happening in pms_synaptics_probe_init()
instead.

> 
> May be instead of hacking around "detection" I could try and mask the taps
> in the default mouse driver. Which module shall I look for for this?

pms.c. But I think the hardware is generating click events for this,
so you proably can't mask then in software without a proper synaptics
driver.

-- 
Manuel Bouyer 
 NetBSD: 26 ans d'experience feront toujours la difference
--

Re: 8.0 BETA: touchpad taps occur while typing

[Mayuresh]

On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 11:05:20AM +0200, Manuel Bouyer wrote:
> It's probably a newer synaptics hardware, which may need a different code.
> It needs to be looked at.
> BTW the code is in src/sys/dev/pckbport/, look at pms* and synaptics*

I tried hacking the condition below to force-detect synaptics, but then I
found keyboard wasn't working on booting with this kernel.

/* Probe for synaptics touchpad. */
if (pms_synaptics_probe_init(sc) == 0) { // made this if(1)
sc->protocol = PMS_SYNAPTICS;
} else

May be instead of hacking around "detection" I could try and mask the taps
in the default mouse driver. Which module shall I look for for this?

Mayuresh

Re: 8.0 BETA: touchpad taps occur while typing

[Manuel Bouyer]

On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 02:28:50PM +0530, Mayuresh wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 10:53:26AM +0200, Manuel Bouyer wrote:
> > On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 02:04:24PM +0530, Mayuresh wrote:
> > > On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 09:37:39AM +0200, Manuel Bouyer wrote:
> > > > that's fine, pckbc (pms@pckbd@pckbc, actually) handles synaptics too.
> > > > There's no separate driver for synaptics in the NetBSD kernel.
> > > 
> > > 'man pms' shows a lot of hw.synaptics.* properties.
> > > 
> > > But 'sysctl -a' does not show them. I thought, if applicable it would have
> > > shown at least the default values.
> > 
> > So, indeed your touchpad is not detected as synaptics.
> > In this case it's probably the hardware itself which handles
> > the gestures, not the driver.
> 
> On Linux it is detected as synaptics and the present issue does not occur.
> May be I can try tinkering with "synaptics detection" part of the kernel
> (since it is known to work as synaptics on other OS). I'll just need some
> help to reach the right code and some high level guidance.

It's probably a newer synaptics hardware, which may need a different code.
It needs to be looked at.
BTW the code is in src/sys/dev/pckbport/, look at pms* and synaptics*

-- 
Manuel Bouyer 
 NetBSD: 26 ans d'experience feront toujours la difference
--

Re: 8.0 BETA: touchpad taps occur while typing

[Mayuresh]

On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 10:53:26AM +0200, Manuel Bouyer wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 02:04:24PM +0530, Mayuresh wrote:
> > On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 09:37:39AM +0200, Manuel Bouyer wrote:
> > > that's fine, pckbc (pms@pckbd@pckbc, actually) handles synaptics too.
> > > There's no separate driver for synaptics in the NetBSD kernel.
> > 
> > 'man pms' shows a lot of hw.synaptics.* properties.
> > 
> > But 'sysctl -a' does not show them. I thought, if applicable it would have
> > shown at least the default values.
> 
> So, indeed your touchpad is not detected as synaptics.
> In this case it's probably the hardware itself which handles
> the gestures, not the driver.

On Linux it is detected as synaptics and the present issue does not occur.
May be I can try tinkering with "synaptics detection" part of the kernel
(since it is known to work as synaptics on other OS). I'll just need some
help to reach the right code and some high level guidance.

Mayuresh.

Re: 8.0 BETA: touchpad taps occur while typing

[Mayuresh]

On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 09:37:39AM +0200, Manuel Bouyer wrote:
> that's fine, pckbc (pms@pckbd@pckbc, actually) handles synaptics too.
> There's no separate driver for synaptics in the NetBSD kernel.

'man pms' shows a lot of hw.synaptics.* properties.

But 'sysctl -a' does not show them. I thought, if applicable it would have
shown at least the default values.

Shall I be trying to set synaptics properties in /etc/sysctl.conf?

Mayuresh

Re: 8.0 BETA: touchpad taps occur while typing

[Manuel Bouyer]

On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 07:56:13AM +0530, Mayuresh wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 07:54:18AM +0930, Brett Lymn wrote:
> > Ah, that is a bit of an issue then.  The touchpad drivers themselves
> > don't have any fine grained controls for turning off some gestures.  I
> > guess a bunch of sysctl variables could be added to do this but they
> > simply are not there at the moment - currently if the touchpad says it
> > supports a gesture then it will be reported.
> 
> synaptics has a bunch of variables, but my touchpad is not being detected
> as synaptics. The kernel option PMS_SYNAPTICS_TOUCHPAD is enabled. It's
> GENERIC kernel.
> 
> In turn sysctl -a does not reflect synaptics variables.
> 
> Mine is detected as pckbc instead. I tried disabling pckbc, but it still
> did not detect it as synaptics.

that's fine, pckbc (pms@pckbd@pckbc, actually) handles synaptics too.
There's no separate driver for synaptics in the NetBSD kernel.

-- 
Manuel Bouyer 
 NetBSD: 26 ans d'experience feront toujours la difference
--

Re: 8.0 BETA: touchpad taps occur while typing

[Mayuresh]

On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 07:54:18AM +0930, Brett Lymn wrote:
> Ah, that is a bit of an issue then.  The touchpad drivers themselves
> don't have any fine grained controls for turning off some gestures.  I
> guess a bunch of sysctl variables could be added to do this but they
> simply are not there at the moment - currently if the touchpad says it
> supports a gesture then it will be reported.

synaptics has a bunch of variables, but my touchpad is not being detected
as synaptics. The kernel option PMS_SYNAPTICS_TOUCHPAD is enabled. It's
GENERIC kernel.

In turn sysctl -a does not reflect synaptics variables.

Mine is detected as pckbc instead. I tried disabling pckbc, but it still
did not detect it as synaptics.

> Perhaps another approach is to just disable the double-click action in X
> which is what you have been looking at but I think you are looking in
> the wrong spot - the double click handling is more an application/window
> manager function so you need to look there to prevent undesirable
> effects.

I use ratpoison WM. Tried switching to NetBSD's default wm but the issue
is same.

Had that been a wm issue, I'd have faced it in the same wm on Linux. On
Linux synaptics driver is used and there is no issue.

Mayuresh.

Re: 8.0 BETA: touchpad taps occur while typing

[Brett Lymn]

On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 07:20:20AM +0530, Mayuresh wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 07:43:55AM +0930, Brett Lymn wrote:
> > Try a boot -c and unconfigure the pms driver?  That should stop the
> > touchpad from being configured.
> 
> Actually I want the touchpad, but do not want it to support too many
> gestures, particularly those that occur inadvertently, like double tap in
> the upper area that happens when typing.
> 

Ah, that is a bit of an issue then.  The touchpad drivers themselves
don't have any fine grained controls for turning off some gestures.  I
guess a bunch of sysctl variables could be added to do this but they
simply are not there at the moment - currently if the touchpad says it
supports a gesture then it will be reported.

Perhaps another approach is to just disable the double-click action in X
which is what you have been looking at but I think you are looking in
the wrong spot - the double click handling is more an application/window
manager function so you need to look there to prevent undesirable
effects.

-- 
Brett Lymn
Let go, or be dragged - Zen proverb.

Re: 8.0 BETA: touchpad taps occur while typing

[coypu]

On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 10:35:17PM +0530, Mayuresh wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 04:55:09PM +, co...@sdf.org wrote:
> > It might be good to mention which driver is used for the mouse.
> 
> Oops, I filed already. Can I add this information to already filed PR?
> 

I saw that you did :-)
reply to gnats-b...@netbsd.org with Re: xsrc/52300: Laptop touchpad
sensitivity makes it nearly impossible to use NetBSD 8.0 BETA as the
title

(Only Re: category/12345 is important)

Re: 8.0 BETA: touchpad taps occur while typing

[Mayuresh]

On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 04:55:09PM +, co...@sdf.org wrote:
> It might be good to mention which driver is used for the mouse.

Oops, I filed already. Can I add this information to already filed PR?

Mayuresh.

Re: 8.0 BETA: touchpad taps occur while typing

[coypu]

It might be good to mention which driver is used for the mouse.

Re: 8.0 BETA: touchpad taps occur while typing

[Mayuresh]

On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 09:27:01AM +, co...@sdf.org wrote:
> You probably want to use X11_TYPE=modular (after cleaning and deleting
> packages) to get pkgsrc Xorg. Then, run the startx you get from pkgsrc.

There will be inertia to do that... particularly it is not clear whether
pkgsrc Xorg would really solve the problem.

> We have some old versions of drivers but I see that the check to using
> the new ones is for NetBSD==7. It should be extended to ==8 (NetBSD 6
> did not have a new enough DRM), assuming you use the meta-pkg.
> 
> We don't have xf86-input-synaptic in pkgsrc, it must not be hard to add,
> but I'm not sure how Xorg works too much (I don't know how to tell which
> input driver I am using). Could raise it as an xsrc bug.

For ==8 change, would a PR be needed?

I think I can log a general PR for touchpad's behavior.

Mayuresh.

Re: 8.0 BETA: touchpad taps occur while typing

[coypu]

Hi,

You probably want to use X11_TYPE=modular (after cleaning and deleting
packages) to get pkgsrc Xorg. Then, run the startx you get from pkgsrc.

We have some old versions of drivers but I see that the check to using
the new ones is for NetBSD==7. It should be extended to ==8 (NetBSD 6
did not have a new enough DRM), assuming you use the meta-pkg.

We don't have xf86-input-synaptic in pkgsrc, it must not be hard to add,
but I'm not sure how Xorg works too much (I don't know how to tell which
input driver I am using). Could raise it as an xsrc bug.

Re: 8.0 BETA: touchpad taps occur while typing

[Mayuresh]

On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 07:43:55AM +0930, Brett Lymn wrote:
> Try a boot -c and unconfigure the pms driver?  That should stop the
> touchpad from being configured.

Actually I want the touchpad, but do not want it to support too many
gestures, particularly those that occur inadvertently, like double tap in
the upper area that happens when typing.

I looked at man xorg.conf and man mousedrv, but could not find a way to
stop this gesture.

It's getting so annoying that it is making the OS completely unusable on
my laptop.

Mayuresh.

Re: 8.0 BETA: touchpad taps occur while typing

[Brett Lymn]

On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 05:59:29PM +0530, Mayuresh wrote:
> 
> Would appreciate any hints in this regard. Mouse touchpad is just too
> annoying on my laptop.
> 
> Is this a kernel module level problem or X11 level problem? Shall I be
> installing pkg x11?
> 

Try a boot -c and unconfigure the pms driver?  That should stop the
touchpad from being configured.

-- 
Brett Lymn
Let go, or be dragged - Zen proverb.

Re: 8.0 BETA: touchpad taps occur while typing

[Mayuresh]

On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 10:02:04PM +0530, Mayuresh wrote:
> I am using base X11 of NetBSD 8.0 BETA i386.
> 
> While typing on laptop keypad, thumbs inadvertently touch the
> mouse-touchpad and simulate double tap. In a terminal it ends up selecting
> part of the screen, and in graphical interfaces too many annoying things
> happen.
> 
> What is the way to disable this?
> 
> Following information might help.
> 
> # grep -i mouse /var/log/Xorg.0.log
> Using the default mouse configuration.
> [50.092] (II) LoadModule: "mouse"
> [50.093] (II) Loading /usr/X11R7/lib/modules/drivers/mouse_drv.so
> [50.107] (II) Module mouse: vendor="X.Org Foundation"
> [50.202] (==) intel(0): Silken mouse enabled
> [51.086] (II) Using input driver 'mouse' for ''
> [51.156] (II) : found Device "/dev/wsmouse"
> [51.158] (--) : Device: "/dev/wsmouse"
> [51.158] (==) : Protocol: "WSMouse"
> [51.158] (**) Option "Device" "/dev/wsmouse"
> [51.170] (II) XINPUT: Adding extended input device ""
> (type: MOUSE, id 6)
> 
> # dmesg | grep -i -e mouse -e pms
> pms0 at pckbc2 (aux slot)
> wsmouse0 at pms0 mux 0

Trying some random things. Some help is badly needed.

Tried compiling pkgsrc x11 (modular x11). Not able to get it work,
video-intel driver is not compiling saying it needs DRI1. Other drivers
like vesa, intelfb, wsfb tried, but somehow could not start X. Anyway,
whether that would solve mouse problem or not is unclear.

Tried compiling the kernel by disabling pckbc, but that made both keyboard
and mouse of the laptop inoperative.

For same hardware synaptic xorg driver gets used on Linux. Do not know how
to get the same behavior in NetBSD.

Mayuresh

Re: 8.0 BETA: touchpad taps occur while typing

[Mayuresh]

On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 10:02:04PM +0530, Mayuresh wrote:
> I am using base X11 of NetBSD 8.0 BETA i386.
> 
> While typing on laptop keypad, thumbs inadvertently touch the
> mouse-touchpad and simulate double tap. In a terminal it ends up selecting
> part of the screen, and in graphical interfaces too many annoying things
> happen.
> 
> What is the way to disable this?
> 
> Following information might help.
> 
> # grep -i mouse /var/log/Xorg.0.log
> Using the default mouse configuration.
> [50.092] (II) LoadModule: "mouse"
> [50.093] (II) Loading /usr/X11R7/lib/modules/drivers/mouse_drv.so
> [50.107] (II) Module mouse: vendor="X.Org Foundation"
> [50.202] (==) intel(0): Silken mouse enabled
> [51.086] (II) Using input driver 'mouse' for ''
> [51.156] (II) : found Device "/dev/wsmouse"
> [51.158] (--) : Device: "/dev/wsmouse"
> [51.158] (==) : Protocol: "WSMouse"
> [51.158] (**) Option "Device" "/dev/wsmouse"
> [51.170] (II) XINPUT: Adding extended input device ""
> (type: MOUSE, id 6)
> 
> # dmesg | grep -i -e mouse -e pms
> pms0 at pckbc2 (aux slot)
> wsmouse0 at pms0 mux 0


Would appreciate any hints in this regard. Mouse touchpad is just too
annoying on my laptop.

Is this a kernel module level problem or X11 level problem? Shall I be
installing pkg x11?

Mayuresh.