Re: Phoronix 8-way-BSD-install - NetBSD bombed

[Andrei M.]

You know, despite all 7.0 has been a HUGE improvement performance-wise
on my main laptop (it's the same one since 2010) compared to the 6.x
series and whatever was before.
I've just upgraded to 7.0.1, let's see how it works.

2016-09-14 18:17 GMT+03:00  :
> I feel that for home users, -current may be a good choice.
>
> netbsd 7.0 is entirely unusable on much of my hardware. desktop was
> extra bad. no USB3 means USB keyboard interrupts are lost or something,
> need to boot with ACPI disabled (disables hyperthreading), cannot install
> from USB, lack of graphical acceleration for nvidia cards means when
> running old Xorg it took 1 minute to run a command like 'su', new Xorg
> can handle until X is shut down once (all fixed in -current).
>

Re: Phoronix 8-way-BSD-install - NetBSD bombed

[coypu]

I feel that for home users, -current may be a good choice.

netbsd 7.0 is entirely unusable on much of my hardware. desktop was
extra bad. no USB3 means USB keyboard interrupts are lost or something,
need to boot with ACPI disabled (disables hyperthreading), cannot install
from USB, lack of graphical acceleration for nvidia cards means when
running old Xorg it took 1 minute to run a command like 'su', new Xorg
can handle until X is shut down once (all fixed in -current).

on linux drivers are written before a release, or right after. so
a typical user which has 2-3 year old hardware can afford to use LTS
kernel.
in netbsd, drivers only end up written after 2-3 developers get the
hardware, and they don't get it on release day. so this is a 2 year
delay in itself.

after this many users end up picking netbsd 7.0 release, not knowing it
is effectively like picking old ubuntu LTS, except with the additional
delay until developers (which are normal people and not companies)
obtain the hardware and get around to adding support.

it's USB3 now, tomorrow it will bbe that legacy boot can't boot NVMe
root and we have no UEFI bootloader yet (PR 51279), or no skylake
ethernet, etc.

the only thing a user with recent can do to bridge this gap is to use
-current. it may rarely be broken, thoguh.
If your hardware is unsupported, it's worth a try.

Re: Phoronix 8-way-BSD-install - NetBSD bombed

[Andrei M.]

2016-09-13 2:48 GMT+03:00  :
> No USB3 support on NetBSD-7.0. I had the same. Requires twiddling with
> BIOS options to even boot the installer.
> Hopefully 7.1 will have merged by release (planned), -current already
> does, and it works well.
>

In my case USB installation (7.0) didn't work either, the system
didn't see my HD, only the USB disk. So CD was the only option.

Re: Phoronix 8-way-BSD-install - NetBSD bombed

[Andrei M.]

2016-09-12 1:13 GMT+03:00 Michael van Elst :
> lingvofact...@gmail.com ("Andrei M.") writes:
>
>>> That's why it might be interesting to find out why ahcisata fails for you.
>
>>Are there any kernel debug facilities on the installation distro?
>
> Not much. You can boot the kernel with the -x parameter, but capturing
> the dmesg output without a serial console is difficult.
>

OK, I can try to record it on video :) Will try it shortly.

Andrei

Re: Phoronix 8-way-BSD-install - NetBSD bombed

[coypu]

No USB3 support on NetBSD-7.0. I had the same. Requires twiddling with
BIOS options to even boot the installer.
Hopefully 7.1 will have merged by release (planned), -current already
does, and it works well.

Re: Phoronix 8-way-BSD-install - NetBSD bombed

[David Brownlee]

On 11 September 2016 at 23:13, Michael van Elst  wrote:
> lingvofact...@gmail.com ("Andrei M.") writes:
>
>>> That's why it might be interesting to find out why ahcisata fails for you.
>
>>Are there any kernel debug facilities on the installation distro?
>
> Not much. You can boot the kernel with the -x parameter, but capturing
> the dmesg output without a serial console is difficult.

If the system can probe the USB devices OK then another option might
be to boot a USB image, either an install or a full live image. You
should be able to exit the installer and then run dmesg into a file,
and copy (ftp?) it somewhere.

(you could also boot the CD with ahcisata switched to compat and
install onto a USB device then switch it back and boot the USB device
if you want to get a full install, but probably booting one of the
existing USB images would be fine).

Re: Phoronix 8-way-BSD-install - NetBSD bombed

[Michael van Elst]

lingvofact...@gmail.com ("Andrei M.") writes:

>> That's why it might be interesting to find out why ahcisata fails for you.

>Are there any kernel debug facilities on the installation distro?

Not much. You can boot the kernel with the -x parameter, but capturing
the dmesg output without a serial console is difficult.


-- 
-- 
Michael van Elst
Internet: mlel...@serpens.de
"A potential Snark may lurk in every tree."

Re: Phoronix 8-way-BSD-install - NetBSD bombed

[Andrei M.]

2016-09-11 23:40 GMT+03:00 Michael van Elst :
> lingvofact...@gmail.com ("Andrei M.") writes:
>
>>As I previousy wrote, I switched from SATA to IDE mode in BIOS (after
>>which everything started working), so the system no longer recognizes
>>ahcisata. Here's the output for my HD and CD:
>
> That's why it might be interesting to find out why ahcisata fails for you.

Are there any kernel debug facilities on the installation distro?


> --
> --
> Michael van Elst
> Internet: mlel...@serpens.de
> "A potential Snark may lurk in every tree."

Re: Phoronix 8-way-BSD-install - NetBSD bombed

[Michael van Elst]

lingvofact...@gmail.com ("Andrei M.") writes:

>As I previousy wrote, I switched from SATA to IDE mode in BIOS (after
>which everything started working), so the system no longer recognizes
>ahcisata. Here's the output for my HD and CD:

That's why it might be interesting to find out why ahcisata fails for you.

-- 
-- 
Michael van Elst
Internet: mlel...@serpens.de
"A potential Snark may lurk in every tree."

Re: Phoronix 8-way-BSD-install - NetBSD bombed

[Andrei M.]

As I previousy wrote, I switched from SATA to IDE mode in BIOS (after
which everything started working), so the system no longer recognizes
ahcisata. Here's the output for my HD and CD:

wd0 at atabus0 drive 0
wd0: 
wd0: drive supports 16-sector PIO transfers, LBA48 addressing
wd0: 465 GB, 969021 cyl, 16 head, 63 sec, 512 bytes/sect x 976773168 sectors
wd0: drive supports PIO mode 4, DMA mode 2, Ultra-DMA mode 6 (Ultra/133)
atapibus0 at atabus1: 2 targets
cd0 at atapibus0 drive 0:  cdrom removable
cd0: drive supports PIO mode 4, DMA mode 2, Ultra-DMA mode 5 (Ultra/100)

2016-09-11 12:33 GMT+03:00 Michael van Elst :
> lingvofact...@gmail.com ("Andrei M.") writes:
>
>>No, this happened when the installation CD was loading. I've had
>>exactly the same problem in the installation process last year, see
>>attachment.
>
> The screenshot shows
>
> two SATA devices that couldn't be recognized.
> one USB umass device.
>
> The information about the CD has either scrolled off, or it's
> one of the SATA devices, probably the latter (with only 1.5Gb/s on
> the second port).
>
> Can you identify your ahcisata controller? E.g.:
>
> ahcisata0 at pci0 dev 31 function 2: vendor 0x8086 product 0x8c02 (rev. 0x04)
> ahcisata0: interrupting at ioapic0 pin 19
> ahcisata0: 64-bit DMA
> ahcisata0: AHCI revision 1.30, 6 ports, 32 slots, CAP 
> 0xc730ff45
>
> --
> --
> Michael van Elst
> Internet: mlel...@serpens.de
> "A potential Snark may lurk in every tree."

Re: Phoronix 8-way-BSD-install - NetBSD bombed

[Michael van Elst]

lingvofact...@gmail.com ("Andrei M.") writes:

>No, this happened when the installation CD was loading. I've had
>exactly the same problem in the installation process last year, see
>attachment.

The screenshot shows

two SATA devices that couldn't be recognized.
one USB umass device.

The information about the CD has either scrolled off, or it's
one of the SATA devices, probably the latter (with only 1.5Gb/s on
the second port).

Can you identify your ahcisata controller? E.g.:

ahcisata0 at pci0 dev 31 function 2: vendor 0x8086 product 0x8c02 (rev. 0x04)
ahcisata0: interrupting at ioapic0 pin 19
ahcisata0: 64-bit DMA
ahcisata0: AHCI revision 1.30, 6 ports, 32 slots, CAP 
0xc730ff45

-- 
-- 
Michael van Elst
Internet: mlel...@serpens.de
"A potential Snark may lurk in every tree."

Re: Phoronix 8-way-BSD-install - NetBSD bombed

[Andrei M.]

2016-09-10 18:05 GMT+03:00 Andrei M. :
> No, this happened when the installation CD was loading. I've had
> exactly the same problem in the installation process last year, see
> attachment.
>
>
> 2016-09-10 2:49 GMT+03:00 Michael van Elst :
>> swiftgri...@gmail.com (Swift Griggs) writes:
>>
>>>I wonder what happened in his case. I can tell he's re-using the same box
>>>and drive from his FreeBSD install, but I've done that many times and
>>>never had a problem (other than being annoyed at 'dk' devices showing up).
>>>I just wipe the disk and start over.
>>
>> Well, he didn't wipe the disk and either he just didn't recognize
>> "root device:" as a prompt for input or, more probable, the keyboard
>> driver (USB?) failed.
>>
>> But neither should happen during installation. My guess is that sysinst
>> didn't clean the disk and the screenshot comes from booting the installed
>> system.
>>
>>
>> --
>> --
>> Michael van Elst
>> Internet: mlel...@serpens.de
>> "A potential Snark may lurk in every tree."

Re: Phoronix 8-way-BSD-install - NetBSD bombed

[D'Arcy J.M. Cain]

On Fri, 9 Sep 2016 23:49:30 + (UTC)
mlel...@serpens.de (Michael van Elst) wrote:
> But neither should happen during installation. My guess is that
> sysinst didn't clean the disk and the screenshot comes from booting
> the installed system.

Or at least the original boot blocks which may not play nice with
NetBSD.  Although I said that I dd(1) the whole disk, it probably just
needs the first bit.  One MB would probably be way more than needed and
would happen pretty fast.  Maybe 64KB would be enough.  Perhaps sysinst
could do that before replacing the bootblocks.  That might make more
people happy with their first NetBSD installation and help it to not be
their last.

-- 
D'Arcy J.M. Cain 
http://www.NetBSD.org/ IM:da...@vex.net

Re: Phoronix 8-way-BSD-install - NetBSD bombed

[Michael van Elst]

swiftgri...@gmail.com (Swift Griggs) writes:

>I wonder what happened in his case. I can tell he's re-using the same box 
>and drive from his FreeBSD install, but I've done that many times and 
>never had a problem (other than being annoyed at 'dk' devices showing up). 
>I just wipe the disk and start over. 

Well, he didn't wipe the disk and either he just didn't recognize
"root device:" as a prompt for input or, more probable, the keyboard
driver (USB?) failed.

But neither should happen during installation. My guess is that sysinst
didn't clean the disk and the screenshot comes from booting the installed
system.


-- 
-- 
Michael van Elst
Internet: mlel...@serpens.de
"A potential Snark may lurk in every tree."

Re: Phoronix 8-way-BSD-install - NetBSD bombed

[Swift Griggs]

On Fri, 9 Sep 2016, D'Arcy J.M. Cain wrote:
> I always dd nulls to a disk that was used for another OS before starting 
> a new install.

Same here. 

> Specifically I have had issues installing NetBSD to a drive that had 
> Linux (Red Hat) on it.  It's been a while but I think that the behaviour 
> he saw is what I saw.  I ran dd to clean everything off the drive and 
> then it worked just fine.

Hmm. It's one of those ritual-motion things I do now, and I can't even 
remember what happens when you don't dd-wipe a FreeBSD disk and try to do 
a fresh install of NetBSD. 

> In any case I have my doubts about someone who claims to have written 
> 10,000 articles over the last twelve years.  For what it's worth:

Well, I'd question the guy's testing methods and his Linux-centric 
"Phoronix Test Suite". It looks akin to putting gas in a diesel engine and 
wondering why the engine is such a turd. If he's going to use that 
script-ware crap on *BSD he might want to do the same level of testing and 
customization. 

He writes a lot of one-sentence or one-paragraph articles. The site is 
more like an RSS feed than a news site. So, I don't doubt the 10,000 
number but using the term "article" to apply to all of them is a bit 
generous.

> http://jonimoose.net/2013/moronix-why-amd-wont-take-michael-larabel-seriously-and-you-shouldnt-either/

Well, I have to say, I find this blogger's criticism pretty well placed. 

-Swift

Re: Phoronix 8-way-BSD-install - NetBSD bombed

[Andrei M.]

Mike Larabel of Phoronix had the same problem with installation of
NetBSD 7.0 a year ago:

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item=BSD-Linux-Late-2015

In fact I experienced it last year myself, but some good guy told me
to change the BIOS settings for HD from SATA to legacy/IDE and after
that installation process indeed went on.
Now it's about time for myself to register at Phoronix forum and give
this advice to Larabel, hopefully he well pay more attention to NetBSD
from this moment on.

Andrei

2016-09-09 19:35 GMT+03:00 D'Arcy J.M. Cain :
> On Fri, 9 Sep 2016 10:00:49 -0600 (MDT)
> Swift Griggs  wrote:
>> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article=trying-8-bsds=2
>>
>> I wonder what happened in his case. I can tell he's re-using the same
>> box and drive from his FreeBSD install, but I've done that many times
>> and never had a problem (other than being annoyed at 'dk' devices
>> showing up). I just wipe the disk and start over.
>
> I always dd nulls to a disk that was used for another OS before
> starting a new install.
>
>> Phoronix is a pretty Linux-centric site. I have some suspicions is
>
> Specifically I have had issues installing NetBSD to a drive that had
> Linux (Red Hat) on it.  It's been a while but I think that the
> behaviour he saw is what I saw.  I ran dd to clean everything off the
> drive and then it worked just fine.
>
> In any case I have my doubts about someone who claims to have written
> 10,000 articles over the last twelve years.  For what it's worth:
>
> http://jonimoose.net/2013/moronix-why-amd-wont-take-michael-larabel-seriously-and-you-shouldnt-either/
>
>
> --
> D'Arcy J.M. Cain 
> http://www.NetBSD.org/ IM:da...@vex.net