Re: NS2.1 Unicode font library could not be initialized
In article 20090706003522.53717...@trite.i.flarn.net.i.flarn.net, Rob Kendrick r...@netsurf-browser.org wrote: On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 21:03:02 +0100 Mike Hobbs mike.ho...@antplc.com wrote: And all this trouble seems to be over fonts which NetSurf is never likely to use. But NetSurf doesn't know this unless it scans them. The solution to people swapping their sets of fonts all the time is to remove the reason for them swapping fonts all the time. B. Could you expand on that a bit Rob... Not quite sure what you meant? Thanks Dave --
Re: NS2.1 Unicode font library could not be initialized
In article 20090706003522.53717...@trite.i.flarn.net.i.flarn.net, Rob Kendrick r...@netsurf-browser.org wrote: On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 21:03:02 +0100 Mike Hobbs mike.ho...@antplc.com wrote: And all this trouble seems to be over fonts which NetSurf is never likely to use. But NetSurf doesn't know this unless it scans them. The solution to people swapping their sets of fonts all the time is to remove the reason for them swapping fonts all the time. Do all other browsers actually go through this font scanning process, but not make it public in the way that NetSurf does? If they do, do they suffer from similar problems? If not, why not? -- Russell Hafter - Mailing Lists rh.li...@phone.coop Need a hotel? http://www.hrs.de/?client=en__MTcustomerId=416873103 (NB This link needs Firefox to work)
Re: NS2.1 Unicode font library could not be initialized
On Mon, 06 Jul 2009 07:01:42 +0100 Dave Symes d...@triffid.co.uk wrote: In article 20090706003522.53717...@trite.i.flarn.net.i.flarn.net, Rob Kendrick r...@netsurf-browser.org wrote: On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 21:03:02 +0100 Mike Hobbs mike.ho...@antplc.com wrote: And all this trouble seems to be over fonts which NetSurf is never likely to use. But NetSurf doesn't know this unless it scans them. The solution to people swapping their sets of fonts all the time is to remove the reason for them swapping fonts all the time. Could you expand on that a bit Rob... Not quite sure what you meant? I'm not sure how; I don't understand why people swap their fonts around. As soon as somebody works out why, perhaps they could put some effort into removing the reasons. B.
Re: NS2.1 Unicode font library could not be initialized
On Mon, 06 Jul 2009 09:13:03 +0100 Russell Hafter - Lists rh.li...@phone.coop wrote: In article 20090706003522.53717...@trite.i.flarn.net.i.flarn.net, Rob Kendrick r...@netsurf-browser.org wrote: On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 21:03:02 +0100 Mike Hobbs mike.ho...@antplc.com wrote: And all this trouble seems to be over fonts which NetSurf is never likely to use. But NetSurf doesn't know this unless it scans them. The solution to people swapping their sets of fonts all the time is to remove the reason for them swapping fonts all the time. Do all other browsers actually go through this font scanning process, but not make it public in the way that NetSurf does? None of the RISC OS ones support Unicode the way NetSurf does, or to the extent NetSurf does. B.
Re: NS2.1 Unicode font library could not be initialized
In article 20090706092932.0493f...@trite.i.flarn.net.i.flarn.net, Rob Kendrick r...@netsurf-browser.org wrote: On Mon, 06 Jul 2009 09:13:03 +0100 Russell Hafter - Lists rh.li...@phone.coop wrote: In article 20090706003522.53717...@trite.i.flarn.net.i.flarn.net, Rob Kendrick r...@netsurf-browser.org wrote: On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 21:03:02 +0100 Mike Hobbs mike.ho...@antplc.com wrote: And all this trouble seems to be over fonts which NetSurf is never likely to use. But NetSurf doesn't know this unless it scans them. The solution to people swapping their sets of fonts all the time is to remove the reason for them swapping fonts all the time. Do all other browsers actually go through this font scanning process, but not make it public in the way that NetSurf does? None of the RISC OS ones support Unicode the way NetSurf does, or to the extent NetSurf does. True. Having been involved in earlier discussions about unicode and NetSurf (at that time) failing to display certain eastern European characters I am well aware of this. But while that may be a reason, it does not explain the need for font scanning *to me*. Sorry. Also, I was thinking beyond RISC OS: what happens with other platforms, particularly with Opera and Firefox which run on quite a wide range of OSs. -- Russell Hafter - Mailing Lists rh.li...@phone.coop Need a hotel? http://www.hrs.de/?client=en__MTcustomerId=416873103 (NB This link needs Firefox to work)
Re: NS2.1 Unicode font library could not be initialized
In article 507685eb29rh.li...@phone.coop, Russell Hafter - Lists rh.li...@phone.coop wrote: But while that may be a reason, it does not explain the need for font scanning *to me*. Sorry. Try reading the description of what RUfl does here: http://www.netsurf-browser.org/projects/rufl/ Cheers, -- Michael Drake (tlsa) http://www.netsurf-browser.org/
Re: NS2.1 Unicode font library could not be initialized
On Mon, 06 Jul 2009 09:45:16 +0100 Russell Hafter - Lists rh.li...@phone.coop wrote: But while that may be a reason, it does not explain the need for font scanning *to me*. Sorry. If it doesn't scan them, it doesn't know which fonts have which glyphs in, meaning it won't make good use of them. Also, I was thinking beyond RISC OS: what happens with other platforms, particularly with Opera and Firefox which run on quite a wide range of OSs. Font scanning is done there too; and just like NetSurf's RUfl does, it is shared between all applications that use it. The problem under RISC OS is that only two (that I know off) applications use RUfl. B.
Re: NS2.1 Unicode font library could not be initialized
On Mon, 06 Jul 2009 10:13:35 +0100 Russell Hafter - Lists rh.li...@phone.coop wrote: RUfl manages to do all this efficiently by maintaining cached lookup tables containing various mappings. So, would I be correct in thinking that NetSurf, and only NetSurf, needs to do this font scanning, because it has the laudable aim of filling the gaps in RISC OS unicode abilities? No. There is at least one other application that uses RUfl to handle it fonts. And the more applications use it, the better the world will be. (It has a permissive licence to encourage its use, but there appears to be so little development happening these days.) Other RISC OS browsers ignore the problem, while other platforms assume that full unicode support is there in the first place? Yes. And the the scanning, among other things, creates the lookup tables? Yes. B.
Re: NS2.1 Unicode font library could not be initialized
In article c7bc897650.pnyo...@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk, Dr Peter Young pnyo...@ormail.co.uk wrote: How did you make the screenshot, I wonder? I'd be interested to do that with a couple of the Unicode fonts that I have. It's a screenshot of RUfl Chars, a sort of example program that comes with RUfl. I don't think there is currently a binary of it available anywhere. Michael -- Michael Drake (tlsa) http://www.netsurf-browser.org/
Re: NS2.1 Unicode font library could not be initialized
Russell Hafter - Lists wrote: Having been involved in earlier discussions about unicode and NetSurf (at that time) failing to display certain eastern European characters I am well aware of this. But while that may be a reason, it does not explain the need for font scanning *to me*. Sorry. Exasperated Here are some tips to minimise the amount of font scanning NetSurf does * Do not put !Scrap on a RAM disc, or clear it on boot * Install the set of fonts you use most often in !Fonts and only use a Font Management utility when you need additional fonts for DTP. * Put any fonts only used by NetSurf (such as large unicode fonts imported from other platforms) in !NetSurf.Fonts if you don't want RISC OS to see them when NetSurf isn't running. Also, I was thinking beyond RISC OS: what happens with other platforms, particularly with Opera and Firefox which run on quite a wide range of OSs. All alternative OSs have proper support for unicode and foreign encodings, so don't require the hoops NetSurf/RUFL has to go to make the privative RISC OS system display anything other than the current encoding. Be very grateful the developers have bothered implementing this system for RISC OS, as it's not needed on any of the other ports, and probably wouldn't get written now if it didn't already exist. Cheers ---David -- Email: dr...@druck.org.uk Phone: +44-(0)7974 108301
Re: NS2.1 Unicode font library could not be initialized
In article 4a51cdc4.6020...@druck.org.uk, David J. Ruck dr...@druck.org.uk wrote: Russell Hafter - Lists wrote: Having been involved in earlier discussions about unicode and NetSurf (at that time) failing to display certain eastern European characters I am well aware of this. But while that may be a reason, it does not explain the need for font scanning *to me*. Sorry. Exasperated I do not have the font scanning problem, but was wanting to understand more about what is going on. Like Rob, I do not understand why people would be swapping fonts all the time either. I have 25 font families on this machine, and feel pretty certain that I could bin at least 50% of them and never know the difference! I do not have a separate Font Management utility either. [Big Snip] Be very grateful the developers have bothered implementing this system for RISC OS, as it's not needed on any of the other ports, and probably wouldn't get written now if it didn't already exist. I am grateful. Very. I just wish that there was some way to get it to work with Pluto, which does not understand utf-8 encodings of central European chars. But that, I suspect, is never going to happen. -- Russell Hafter - Mailing Lists rh.li...@phone.coop Need a hotel? http://www.hrs.de/?client=en__MTcustomerId=416873103 (NB This link needs Firefox to work)
Re: NS2.1 Unicode font library could not be initialized
On 6 Jul 2009 Michael Drake t...@netsurf-browser.org wrote: In article c7bc897650.pnyo...@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk, Dr Peter Young pnyo...@ormail.co.uk wrote: How did you make the screenshot, I wonder? I'd be interested to do that with a couple of the Unicode fonts that I have. It's a screenshot of RUfl Chars, a sort of example program that comes with RUfl. I don't think there is currently a binary of it available anywhere. If anyone does come across this program I would be grateful if they could send it or a link; just our of idle curiosity, of course :-) With best wishes, Peter. -- Peter, \ / zfc Tm \ Prestbury, Cheltenham, Glos. GL52 Anne\/ ____\ England. and / / \ | | |\ | / _\ http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk family / \__/ \_/ | \| \__/ \__ pnyo...@ormail.co.uk
Re: NS2.1 Unicode font library could not be initialized
On Sun, 2009-07-05 at 21:03 +0100, Mike Hobbs wrote: Thanks to John-Mark my problem was fixed (for a while) by making sure I had the latest FontManager. However, I unexpectedly had the problem return and the reason was that I had changed some fonts by synchronizing between my laptop and desktop machines. This confuses me. Your problem was caused by an incomplete installation of the Unicode Font Manager and corresponding ROMFonts modules. Changing your installed fonts wouldn't affect it. I mention this here because, as I think others have also pointed out, the mechanism for font scanning probably needs reviewing. It seems that seemingly minor changes to a machine's font library can at best cause NetSurf to spend ages scanning fonts before it starts, or at worst it can crash because the RUfl_cache says it has fonts which have now gone. There are 2 kinds of scan: full and partial. A full scan will only occur if RUfl_cache does not exist or if it was created by an incompatible version of RUfl. The cache version number has only ever been increased twice since RUfl was first written 4 years ago. A partial scan will occur if there are new fonts available. As the name suggests, it will only scan those new fonts, and nothing else. As for the crash; I've already explained that it was fixed some time ago and that development builds contain the fix. Eventually, NetSurf 2.2 will contain that fix also. I can't say when that will be, however. Given the above, if you want to avoid fonts being scanned, the solution is simple: 1) Upgrade to a development build 2) Enable all fonts on your system and run NetSurf. You can then enable or disable fonts at will without causing a rescan unless you introduce some new font that wasn't present when the original scan took place. And all this trouble seems to be over fonts which NetSurf is never likely to use. As Rob has said, there is no way of telling whether a font will be used until after it has been scanned. John.
Re: NS2.1 Unicode font library could not be initialized
In article 1246880870.32517.128.ca...@duiker, John-Mark Bell j...@netsurf-browser.org wrote: There are 2 kinds of scan: full and partial. snip A partial scan will occur if there are new fonts available. As the name suggests, it will only scan those new fonts, and nothing else. Netsurf scans and finds the font 'Lampoon Primary' every time I start it up? 3.0 (Dev) (06 Jul 2009 11-00) r8347 -- Barry A.
Re: NS2.1 Unicode font library could not be initialized
In message 50769a0f19ba...@e-allen.me.uk Barry E Allen ba...@e-allen.me.uk wrote: In article 1246880870.32517.128.ca...@duiker, John-Mark Bell j...@netsurf-browser.org wrote: There are 2 kinds of scan: full and partial. snip A partial scan will occur if there are new fonts available. As the name suggests, it will only scan those new fonts, and nothing else. Netsurf scans and finds the font 'Lampoon Primary' every time I start it up? 3.0 (Dev) (06 Jul 2009 11-00) r8347 Are you sure the Lampoon Primary font is complete? My system keeps finding... Swz.Narrow I believe, which, on my system, isn't. -- Simon Smith | A golden bird stands on a silver snake lying | in a pool of water. The snake drinks the | water, and the bird eats the snake. When | the water is gone, the bird dies.
Re: NS2.1 Unicode font library could not be initialized
On Mon, 2009-07-06 at 12:47 +0100, John-Mark Bell wrote: On Sun, 2009-07-05 at 21:03 +0100, Mike Hobbs wrote: I mention this here because, as I think others have also pointed out, the mechanism for font scanning probably needs reviewing. It seems that seemingly minor changes to a machine's font library can at best cause NetSurf to spend ages scanning fonts before it starts, or at worst it can crash because the RUfl_cache says it has fonts which have now gone. There are 2 kinds of scan: full and partial. Further to this, RUfl scans fonts about 7 times faster when the Unicode Font Manager is in use. The bad news is that it requires a new version of the Unicode Font Manager so NetSurf won't be using this version of RUfl for quite some time. John.
Re: NS2.1 Unicode font library could not be initialized
On 6 Jul 2009 as I do recall, Russell Hafter wrote: Like Rob, I do not understand why people would be swapping fonts all the time either. I have 25 font families on this machine, and feel pretty certain that I could bin at least 50% of them and never know the difference! I do not have a separate Font Management utility either. The reason for swapping fonts (assuming that other people mean by that what I do, of course) is the same as the reason for organising files into directories, or any other form of subdivision: once you get beyond a relatively small number of items in a given group, having them *all* displayed simultaneously actually makes it harder to locate and pick the one you want. Having fonts organised into different groups and swapping them in and out according to what you actually happen to be doing makes them quicker and easier to select, that's all -- and applications like Draw+, which fail to respond to an updated Font$Path but rely on scanning all the currently swapped-in fonts on start-up and have to be quit and restarted before you can make any others available, then become a source of irritation. -- Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie == It is far better to be deceived than to be undeceived by those we love.
Re: NS2.1 Unicode font library could not be initialized
On Mon, 06 Jul 2009 23:10:43 +0100 Harriet Bazley li...@orange.wingsandbeaks.org.uk wrote: The reason for swapping fonts (assuming that other people mean by that what I do, of course) is the same as the reason for organising files into directories, or any other form of subdivision: once you get beyond a relatively small number of items in a given group, having them *all* displayed simultaneously actually makes it harder to locate and pick the one you want. This sounds like an argument for better font organisation, rather than turning fonts on and off depending on what you are doing. For example, adding another layer to their hierarchy for topics. But now this is off-topic. B.
