Re: Google Summer of Code Roundup
On 17 Sep, Steve Fryatt wrote: As such, it seems to have been the usual suspects who have offered to help: those already doing other things. Certainly if I picked up NetSurf now, something else would have to give, which in all probability would just move the complaints from this list to another RISC OS forum a month or so down the line. Right. So we need to clone Steve (and any other willing, able, but too busy developers) to allow him/them more time to carry out the necessary work. We'll just get right on that, then. Anyone got a cloning machine? -- Brian Howlett - Isn't it strange that the same people that laugh at gypsy fortune tellers take economists seriously?
Re: Google Summer of Code Roundup
On Thu, 2009-09-17 at 00:08 +0100, aw29...@gmail.com wrote: In message 1253105573.5804.236.ca...@duiker John-Mark Bell j...@netsurf-browser.org wrote: That doesn't solve the problem -- the RISC OS frontend has no active maintainer. I've been taking sometime out and modifying the RISC OS frontend for the last 2.5 years. I no longer have time to do that. You said the RISC OS frontend has had almost no development for the last 2.5 years. Now you're saying you've been modifying it for 2.5 years. These two statements are not incompatible. Given the tens of thousands of lines of code I've written for NetSurf in the relevant timespan, the odd change here and there to stop the RISC OS frontend from breaking as a result of other changes is utterly insignificant. It also does not constitute development of the RISC OS frontend -- just preserving the status quo. Things have now reached the stage where major changes are beginning to be made to the rest of NetSurf that require active maintenance of the frontends (and the time commitment that implies). The RISC OS frontend does not have active maintenance, which is the problem. Do you have time to do this or is something else more appealing about the other platforms? Why should I have to make time to do anything? As I explained to you on Drobe some weeks ago, the amount of time I have available for NetSurf will reduce somewhat in the future due to other commitments. Therefore, I have to decide where the time I have available for NetSurf is best spent and focus upon those things. In practice, this means that I'll be focussing on the core engine. The RISC OS frontend loses out and does not receive the minimal maintenance it has had for the last 2.5 years. This has nothing to do with NetSurf's availability for other platforms -- if the Amiga frontend (for example) was not maintained, we'd be having the same discussion about that. Fortunately for Amiga 4 users, Chris is very effective at fixing issues as they come to light. I don't think that it's too much to ask that someone, or a group of people, come forward and do the same for the RISC OS frontend. John.
Re: Google Summer of Code Roundup
On Thu, 2009-09-17 at 00:15 +0100, Steve Fryatt wrote: I think the main problem here is that the majority seem happy to sit back, wring their hands and state how terrible this all is -- then wait for someone else to step forward to take on the work (or even demand that someone else does). As such, it seems to have been the usual suspects who have offered to help: those already doing other things. Certainly if I picked up NetSurf now, something else would have to give, which in all probability would just move the complaints from this list to another RISC OS forum a month or so down the line. Quite. This has been RISC OS' elephant in the room for the last 5 years or so -- there simply aren't enough active developers to do all the things that need to be done. I don't have a solution to this problem, but do think it's about time people acknowledged that it exists and review their expectations in that light. Returning to NetSurf, we really do appreciate the offers of help that we've received so far and fully understand that real life gets in the way :) John.
RE: Google Summer of Code Roundup
On Thu, 2009-09-17 at 00:08 +0100, aw29...@gmail.com wrote: In message 1253105573.5804.236.ca...@duiker John-Mark Bell j...@netsurf-browser.org wrote: The RISC OS frontend does not have active maintenance, which is the problem. Does a front end require a c programmer or would for example it be possible to do in basic? (Not that I have suitable skills in any language.) -- Jess Please don't leave my whole message in your reply. mailto:jesshampsh...@googlemail.com (also facebook myspace)
Re: Google Summer of Code Roundup
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 10:44:30 +0100 jess hampshire jesshampsh...@googlemail.com wrote: On Thu, 2009-09-17 at 00:08 +0100, aw29...@gmail.com wrote: In message 1253105573.5804.236.ca...@duiker John-Mark Bell j...@netsurf-browser.org wrote: The RISC OS frontend does not have active maintenance, which is the problem. Does a front end require a c programmer or would for example it be possible to do in basic? (Not that I have suitable skills in any language.) C. BASIC will not help you here. NetSurf is not a simple program; it will require an experienced C programmer. B.
Re: Google Summer of Code Roundup
On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 10:33 AM, John-Mark Bell j...@netsurf-browser.org wrote: On Thu, 2009-09-17 at 00:08 +0100, aw29...@gmail.com wrote: In message 1253105573.5804.236.ca...@duiker John-Mark Bell j...@netsurf-browser.org wrote: In practice, this means that I'll be focussing on the core engine. The RISC OS frontend loses out and does not receive the minimal maintenance it has had for the last 2.5 years. Why, is it more enjoyable? Andrew
Re: Google Summer of Code Roundup
On Thu, 2009-09-17 at 10:52 +0100, A W wrote: On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 10:33 AM, John-Mark Bell j...@netsurf-browser.org wrote: On Thu, 2009-09-17 at 00:08 +0100, aw29...@gmail.com wrote: In message 1253105573.5804.236.ca...@duiker John-Mark Bell j...@netsurf-browser.org wrote: In practice, this means that I'll be focussing on the core engine. The RISC OS frontend loses out and does not receive the minimal maintenance it has had for the last 2.5 years. Why, is it more enjoyable? I don't understand this line of questioning. For NetSurf to be more useful generally, it requires much work to be carried out on the core engine. Improvements to the core engine benefit every platform on which NetSurf is available. Therefore, it should be blatently obvious that, if I have less time available for NetSurf development, then the time I do have should be spent on the core, as it gives maximum return for the investment made. John.
Re: Google Summer of Code Roundup
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 10:52:14 +0100 A W aw29...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 10:33 AM, John-Mark Bell j...@netsurf-browser.org wrote: On Thu, 2009-09-17 at 00:08 +0100, aw29...@gmail.com wrote: In message 1253105573.5804.236.ca...@duiker John-Mark Bell j...@netsurf-browser.org wrote: In practice, this means that I'll be focussing on the core engine. The RISC OS frontend loses out and does not receive the minimal maintenance it has had for the last 2.5 years. Why, is it more enjoyable? You can assume that anything done on NetSurf is purely for enjoyment, and not for the sake of users. I suspect strongly that John-Mark considers the core engine a much more interesting problem than a load of GUI glue for a platform that's hateful to develop on. B.
Re: Google Summer of Code Roundup
In message 1253180442.5804.281.ca...@duiker John-Mark Bell j...@netsurf-browser.org wrote: On Thu, 2009-09-17 at 00:15 +0100, Steve Fryatt wrote: I think the main problem here is that the majority seem happy to sit back, wring their hands and state how terrible this all is -- then wait for someone else to step forward to take on the work (or even demand that someone else does). As such, it seems to have been the usual suspects who have offered to help: those already doing other things. Certainly if I picked up NetSurf now, something else would have to give, which in all probability would just move the complaints from this list to another RISC OS forum a month or so down the line. Quite. This has been RISC OS' elephant in the room for the last 5 years or so -- there simply aren't enough active developers to do all the things that need to be done. I don't have a solution to this problem, but do think it's about time people acknowledged that it exists and review their expectations in that light. Returning to NetSurf, we really do appreciate the offers of help that we've received so far and fully understand that real life gets in the way :) May I ask what proportion of bug reports come from the users of different platforms, particularly RISC OS as that's the main one I use? And, sailing a little closer to the wind, what proportion of useful bug reports? I'd love to help, but I'd have to learn C programming properly first. I can do Hello World, with help, but beyond that is uncharted territory ATM... -- Simon Smith | A golden bird stands on a silver snake lying | in a pool of water. The snake drinks the | water, and the bird eats the snake. When | the water is gone, the bird dies.
Re: Google Summer of Code Roundup
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 11:16:19 +0100 Simon Smith simon_sm...@zen.co.uk wrote: May I ask what proportion of bug reports come from the users of different platforms, particularly RISC OS as that's the main one I use? And, sailing a little closer to the wind, what proportion of useful bug reports? The RISC OS users do provide many many bug reports. I'd say the proportion of them that are useful is about a quarter of that of other platforms. (Numbers out of the air.) This is mainly due to the reports coming from other platforms come from people with access to helpful debugging tools. But that doesn't matter. Getting bug reports for something we can't develop isn't helpful. I'd love to help, but I'd have to learn C programming properly first. I can do Hello World, with help, but beyond that is uncharted territory ATM... And I'm sure you have other things to do with your spare time; just like us :) B.
Re: Google Summer of Code Roundup
2009/9/17 John-Mark Bell j...@netsurf-browser.org: I don't understand this line of questioning. For NetSurf to be more useful generally, it requires much work to be carried out on the core engine. Improvements to the core engine benefit every platform on which NetSurf is available. Therefore, it should be blatently obvious that, if I have less time available for NetSurf development, then the time I do have should be spent on the core, as it gives maximum return for the investment made. I guess is depends on the reason you do it. If it is just to produce a technically good program then obviously there is no question to the logic. However if the reason is to get Netsurf used on the maximum number of desktops, then it is not so clear. You have a pretty captive audience on RISC OS, most people who want to browse would use it. (And to be honest, I prefer the RISC OS version of Netsurf to any other browser for the sites it works with) But for other platforms what is the situation? I have it installed on Linux Mint, and usually use firefox instead. Do you have statistics for the use of Netsurf? Obviously if the RISC OS use is only a tiny proportion of total use, then obviously your logic is still sound. cheers -- Jess -- Jess Please don't leave my whole message in your reply. mailto:jesshampsh...@googlemail.com (also facebook myspace)
Re: Google Summer of Code Roundup
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 11:23:16 +0100 jess hampshire jesshampsh...@googlemail.com wrote: I guess is depends on the reason you do it. If it is just to produce a technically good program then obviously there is no question to the logic. However if the reason is to get Netsurf used on the maximum number of desktops, then it is not so clear. It isn't. Nor, do I believe, has it ever been. But for other platforms what is the situation? I have it installed on Linux Mint, and usually use firefox instead. Do you have statistics for the use of Netsurf? No, none at all. B.
Re: Google Summer of Code Roundup
On Thu, 2009-09-17 at 11:16 +0100, Simon Smith wrote: May I ask what proportion of bug reports come from the users of different platforms, particularly RISC OS as that's the main one I use? You can, but I can't answer with absolute accuracy. The vast majority, unsurprisingly, have come from RISC OS users. That said, in recent times, many of the reported issues have been for things we already knew about, which does at least say something (though I'm not quite sure what :) And, sailing a little closer to the wind, what proportion of useful bug reports? That depends on your definition of useful :) Quality of bug reporting is hugely variable, but this is nothing unique. John.
Re: Google Summer of Code Roundup
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 11:36:43 +0100 Russell Hafter - Lists rh.li...@phone.coop wrote: Writing NetSurf is fun. Where it runs doesn't really come into it. It's a hobby. Which, at the end of the day, means that anyone who uses it but does not or cannot contribute has to take it as it is. Welcome to the world of open source! :) As an aside, I do now wonder if the reason that many RISC OS users may not have grasped just what is involved is that many of us probably were reasonably competent 15 to 20 years ago at producing decent programs in BASIC, COMAL or Pascal (say), but have no experience of the way programming tools and environments have changed since those days. If I think about it sensibly, I suspect that the changes have been enormous and that we would find it extremely difficult to get our heads around the intervening hanges. C has been broadly the same for 20 years. Compilers aren't that different, debuggers like GDB haven't changed significantly in 15 years. What has changed is that stuff is now generally easier. B.
Re: Google Summer of Code Roundup
In article 20090917110637.7f0f2...@trite.i.flarn.net.i.flarn.net, Rob Kendrick r...@netsurf-browser.org wrote: [Snippy] I suspect strongly that John-Mark considers the core engine a much more interesting problem than a load of GUI glue for a platform that's hateful to develop on. B. Which begs the question. Why are you still here? It's a serious question BTW. Dave -- Dave Triffid
Re: Google Summer of Code Roundup
On Thu, 2009-09-17 at 20:20 +0100, Dave Symes wrote: In article 20090917110637.7f0f2...@trite.i.flarn.net.i.flarn.net, Rob Kendrick r...@netsurf-browser.org wrote: [Snippy] I suspect strongly that John-Mark considers the core engine a much more interesting problem than a load of GUI glue for a platform that's hateful to develop on. Which begs the question. Why are you still here? I've already explained my position in detail elsewhere. It doesn't exactly match with Rob's interpretation but there you go. As for your question, this is still the NetSurf users mailing list, right? I think the reason is therefore self-explanatory. John.
Re: Google Summer of Code Roundup
In article 1253218143.5804.343.ca...@duiker, John-Mark Bell j...@netsurf-browser.org wrote: On Thu, 2009-09-17 at 20:20 +0100, Dave Symes wrote: In article 20090917110637.7f0f2...@trite.i.flarn.net.i.flarn.net, Rob Kendrick r...@netsurf-browser.org wrote: [Snippy] I suspect strongly that John-Mark considers the core engine a much more interesting problem than a load of GUI glue for a platform that's hateful to develop on. Which begs the question. Why are you still here? I've already explained my position in detail elsewhere. It doesn't exactly match with Rob's interpretation but there you go. As for your question, this is still the NetSurf users mailing list, right? I think the reason is therefore self-explanatory. John. No John, I wasn't asking why you (J-M B) were here, I thinks that's quite obvious, I was asking Why Rob was still here in RO land, considering his antipathy towards the OS both here and elsewhere. This just happened to be the place where he was running down RISC OS. Dave BTW. I do understand your position... Granted in a different field of endeavour, but I do understand intimately your position. D. -- Dave Triffid
Re: Google Summer of Code Roundup
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 23:34:53 +0100 aw29...@gmail.com wrote: In all of this, our preference has been for option 1. It would, however, be remiss of us not to point out the inevitable result of option 1 not happening (i.e. option 2). One idea is doing what 99% of people never seem to do and advertising again for help at some point in the near future. It might reach different people or the same people in a different frame of mind on a different day. We've been asking for people to maintain the RISC OS front end for *months* if not years. Nobody has come forward. Perhaps it is time to accept that there is nobody available to do the work. If people don't like that, it's time to start learning software engineering and get involved, or learning to accept that RISC OS is dead. Choose one. B.
Re: Google Summer of Code Roundup
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 21:30:07 +0100 Dave Symes d...@triffid.co.uk wrote: No John, I wasn't asking why you (J-M B) were here, I thinks that's quite obvious, I was asking Why Rob was still here in RO land, considering his antipathy towards the OS both here and elsewhere. This just happened to be the place where he was running down RISC OS. Here in RISC OS land? This list is not RISC OS-specific. And if you think that saying that there aren't enough developers left to care for the RISC OS front end is running down, then you really need to get a grip of reality. If there were developers willing to develop for RISC OS, the story would be different. But there apparently aren't, and what that says speaks volumes. B.
Re: Google Summer of Code Roundup
In article 20090918003025.2a35d...@trite.i.flarn.net.i.flarn.net, Rob Kendrick r...@netsurf-browser.org wrote: Perhaps it is time to accept that there is nobody available to do the work. If people don't like that, it's time to start learning software engineering and get involved, or learning to accept that RISC OS is dead. Choose one. Don't be silly. It is not a choice that I have to make. I rarely use Netsurf, preferring to use Google Chrome on my PeeCee or Firefox on my ASUS EeePC. Why would anyone use Netsurf when there are much more capable browsers to hand? I still use RISC OS for all my email, newsreading, all my Desktop publishing and a few things with Fireworkz.. So, for me, RISC OS is not dead. Netsurf, for me, is dead. -- Barry A.
