Re: #2988 hanging

[Dave Higton]

On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 22:37:33 +0100 Dave Higton wrote:

> In message 
>   Gavin Wraith  wrote:
> 
> >Twice in succession now I have found that NetSurf #2988, with
> >Javascript disabled, hangs when I try to browse
> >http://kenodoxia.blogspot.com/ .
> >This is on an Rpi 2 with RO 5.23.
> >When I switch on again I check the SD card with
> >DiscKnight. On the first occasion there were 9
> >faults. Mend them with DiscKnight and try again.
> >The same happens, but the second time there were
> >11 faults. After mending the second time I recheck
> >the SD card. SD card OK.
> 
> 2988 has huge amounts of logging enabled.  Get 2992 - that works
> with the URL above.
> 
> You probably broke NS while it was in the middle of writing the
> log file.  Generating the log file takes ages - you think it's
> crashed, but it's just very busy.

There's another point worth making here.  If you think NS has
crashed, use Alt-Break.  Note: NEVER use Ctrl-Break, various
RISC OS luminaries class it as Evil and say it Breaks Discs.

I used Alt-Break on 2988 early yesterday evening because I
also thought it had crashed.  My disc is fine.

Some of the NS builds recently have had detailed logging
enabled by accident (one of the developers committed a
change that he didn't intend to), and I can see that it
might happen again, so please be aware of what to do if
it should happen again: Alt-Break.

FWIW I've used lots of CI builds of NS, and I've never
had one that failed to respond correctly to Alt-Break.

Dave


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Re: #2988 hanging

[Gavin Wraith]

In message <35e4e54c747.0d53d...@davehigton.me.uk>
  Dave Higton  wrote:


>There's another point worth making here.  If you think NS has
>crashed, use Alt-Break.  Note: NEVER use Ctrl-Break, various
>RISC OS luminaries class it as Evil and say it Breaks Discs.

Thanks very much for this.
--
Gavin Wraith (ga...@wra1th.plus.com)
Home page: http://www.wra1th.plus.com/

Re: #2988 hanging

[Dave Higton]

On Tue, 13 Oct 2015 13:30:09 +0100 Tim Hill wrote:

> This is from my obey file Boot:choices.boot.tasks.Tim's
> 
> | next line disables ctrl/break; use reset. see message
> | 
> Fx 247 169 0

Lest the comment in the snippet above should mislead anybody:

Don't use Reset.  Use Alt-Break if multi-tasking stops.

To clarify: Alt-Break will almost certainly give you back
control.  Reset definitely won't.

Dave


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Re: #2988 hanging

[Tim Hill]

In article <8ee8e81155.geo...@tiscali..co.uk>, george greenfield
 wrote:
> In message  Gavin Wraith
>    wrote:

> > In message <35e4e54c747.0d53d...@davehigton.me.uk> Dave Higton
> >    wrote:
> > 
> > 
> >>There's another point worth making here.  If you think NS has
> >>crashed, use Alt-Break.  Note: NEVER use Ctrl-Break, various RISC OS
> >>luminaries class it as Evil and say it Breaks Discs.
> > 
> > Thanks very much for this. -- Gavin Wraith (ga...@wra1th.plus.com)
> > Home page: http://www.wra1th.plus.com/
> > 
> I must confess to having used Ctrl-Break from time to time, when faced
> with a frozen desktop, without evident ill-effects. Is it considered
> worse than powering-off at the switch, which is the only other option
> AFAIK?

This is from my obey file Boot:choices.boot.tasks.Tim's

| next line disables ctrl/break; use reset. see message
| 
Fx 247 169 0

Good luck finding that message. Sometimes the internet is less than
useless.

-- 
Tim Hill
www.timil.com

web sites * multimedia * training

Re: #2988 hanging

[george greenfield]

In message 
  Gavin Wraith  wrote:

> In message <35e4e54c747.0d53d...@davehigton.me.uk>
>   Dave Higton  wrote:
> 
> 
>>There's another point worth making here.  If you think NS has
>>crashed, use Alt-Break.  Note: NEVER use Ctrl-Break, various
>>RISC OS luminaries class it as Evil and say it Breaks Discs.
> 
> Thanks very much for this.
> --
> Gavin Wraith (ga...@wra1th.plus.com)
> Home page: http://www.wra1th.plus.com/
> 
I must confess to having used Ctrl-Break from time to time, when faced 
with a frozen desktop, without evident ill-effects. Is it considered 
worse than powering-off at the switch, which is the only other option 
AFAIK?

-- 
George

Re: #2988 hanging

[Dave Higton]

On Tue, 13 Oct 2015 13:09:27 +0100 George Greenfield wrote:

> I must confess to having used Ctrl-Break from time to time, when faced
> with a frozen desktop, without evident ill-effects. Is it considered
> worse than powering-off at the switch, which is the only other option
> AFAIK?

Probably, although I'm not really qualified to answer.

If the mouse cursor still moves in response to the mouse, the best
bet is Alt-Break.  This is the most relevant suggestion in this
context, i.e. NetSurf, because I don't think I have ever observed
NetSurf kill the desktop to the point where the mouse cursor stops
responding.

It's not quite a direct answer to your question, but I hope it
steers you towards the best thing to do when using NetSurf and
you see the apparently infinite hourglass.  (And I hope it also
steers you away from something that is known to be bad.)

Dave


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Re: #2988 hanging

[Rob Kendrick]

On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 04:39:32AM -0800, Dave Higton wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Oct 2015 13:09:27 +0100 George Greenfield wrote:
> 
> > I must confess to having used Ctrl-Break from time to time, when faced
> > with a frozen desktop, without evident ill-effects. Is it considered
> > worse than powering-off at the switch, which is the only other option
> > AFAIK?
> 
> Probably, although I'm not really qualified to answer.

You can assume the following simplification:

Alt-Break allows you to force a stuck task to call
Wimp_CloseDown, essentially causing it to quit.  Note that this
forced quit isn't clean: any open files will remain so, and any
memory allocated via dynamic areas or the RMA will be leaked.

Ctrl-Break essentially calls OS_Reset, which causes a software
reset that for all but the very most obscure situations is
functionally identical to pressing the hardware reset button.

The danger with Ctrl-Break and the hardware reset button is that
FileCore might be trying to do something at the time (or be
struck trying), leaving the file system in an unclean state,
requiring the use of something like Disknight to fix.

Summary: Always try Alt-Break first (and the a clean shutdown
straight after), and only Ctrl-Break/Hardware reset button as a
last resort.

B.

Re: How we can all assist NetSurf's development

[Richard Porter]

On 13 Oct 2015 Dave Higton  wrote:

> You can semi-automate the process nicely with Fetch_NS, which is
> abailable from http://aconet.org/tools/fetch-ns.zip

Is there a version which stores a 4-digit.zip filename?

-- 
Richard Porterhttp://www.minijem.plus.com/
Skype: minijem2   mailto:r...@minijem.plus.com
I don't want a "user experience" - I just want stuff that works.

Re: How we can all assist NetSurf's development

[Peter Young]

On 13 Oct 2015  Richard Porter  wrote:

> On 13 Oct 2015 Dave Higton  wrote:

>> You can semi-automate the process nicely with Fetch_NS, which is
>> abailable from http://aconet.org/tools/fetch-ns.zip

> Is there a version which stores a 4-digit.zip filename?

If I've understood the question, my last three NetSurf downloads, 
using Fetch_NS are 2992/zip, 2989/zip and 2982/zip (bear in mind that 
RISC OS uses / instead of Microsoft's .). So, it looks as if the 
answer is "yes".

However, there are two versions of Fetch_NS, and the one I have is the 
same as the one got from the above URL. Which version do you have?

Best wishes,

Peter.

-- 
Peter Young (zfc Os) and family
Prestbury, Cheltenham, Glos. GL52, England
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
pnyo...@ormail.co.uk

Re: #2988 hanging

[Tim Hill]

In article <20151013152414.gb23...@platypus.pepperfish.net>, Rob Kendrick
 wrote:

[Snip]

>   Summary: Always try Alt-Break first (and the a clean shutdown 
> straight after), and only Ctrl-Break/Hardware reset button as a   last
> resort.

The ultimate last resort is to 'cycle the power switch' as sometimes
that's the only way out of the so-called 'pyjamas' screen on Iyonix and
other situations with a Pi.

-- 
Tim Hill
www.timil.com

web sites * multimedia * training

Re: How we can all assist NetSurf's development

[Richard Porter]

On 13 Oct 2015 Peter Young  wrote:

> On 13 Oct 2015  Richard Porter  wrote:

>> On 13 Oct 2015 Dave Higton  wrote:

>>> You can semi-automate the process nicely with Fetch_NS, which is
>>> abailable from http://aconet.org/tools/fetch-ns.zip

>> Is there a version which stores a 4-digit.zip filename?

> If I've understood the question, my last three NetSurf downloads,
> using Fetch_NS are 2992/zip, 2989/zip and 2982/zip (bear in mind that
> RISC OS uses / instead of Microsoft's .). So, it looks as if the
> answer is "yes".

> However, there are two versions of Fetch_NS, and the one I have is the
> same as the one got from the above URL. Which version do you have?

The version from the URL above is quite a bit different from the one I 
had. Where's the version number?

Anyway this version starts to download the zip file but sets the file 
type to Text until it's complete. The previous version I had 
downloaded the file as DEADDEAD until complete but only used the last 
three digits of the NS version number in the file name i.e. "2994/zip" 
was stored as "994/zip".

Richard
-- 
Richard Porterhttp://www.minijem.plus.com/
Skype: minijem2   mailto:r...@minijem.plus.com
I don't want a "user experience" - I just want stuff that works.

Re: #2988 hanging

[Richard Porter]

On 13 Oct 2015 Tim Hill  wrote:

>> Summary: Always try Alt-Break first (and the a clean shutdown
>> straight after), and only Ctrl-Break/Hardware reset button as a last
>> resort.

> The ultimate last resort is to 'cycle the power switch' as sometimes
> that's the only way out of the so-called 'pyjamas' screen on Iyonix and
> other situations with a Pi.

I know what you mean by the pyjamas screen. I've had it on my RiscPC 
but I've always put it down to the Vpod.

-- 
Richard Porterhttp://www.minijem.plus.com/
Skype: minijem2   mailto:r...@minijem.plus.com
I don't want a "user experience" - I just want stuff that works.

Re: How we can all assist NetSurf's development

[John Williams]

In article <4b9afe1155.r...@user.minijem.plus.com>,
   Richard Porter  wrote:

> The previous version I had 
> downloaded the file as DEADDEAD until complete but only used the last 
> three digits of the NS version number in the file name i.e. "2994/zip" 
> was stored as "994/zip".

That was my original version, now updated here for me, but Frank de Bruijn
asked if he could modify it, and I was quite happy with this.

I am still using my own self-modified version, but have withdrawn the
original to (I had hoped!) avoid confusion.

So use Frank's or contact me privately if you really prefer mine. I doubt
there is any serious difference.

Best wishes, 
 
John

-- 
| John Williams 
| joh...@ukgateway.net

 Names for Soul Band:- Soul Doubt *

Re: How we can all assist NetSurf's development Getting OT)

[Peter Young]

On 13 Oct 2015  John Williams  wrote:

> In article <4b9afe1155.r...@user.minijem.plus.com>,
>Richard Porter  wrote:

>> The previous version I had
>> downloaded the file as DEADDEAD until complete but only used the last
>> three digits of the NS version number in the file name i.e. "2994/zip"
>> was stored as "994/zip".

> That was my original version, now updated here for me, but Frank de Bruijn
> asked if he could modify it, and I was quite happy with this.

> I am still using my own self-modified version, but have withdrawn the
> original to (I had hoped!) avoid confusion.

> So use Frank's or contact me privately if you really prefer mine. I doubt
> there is any serious difference.

Yes, it's Frank's version I use. It is a bit non-intuitive to set up 
so that it does what an individual user wants to do. I have modified 
several of the files so that it does what I want, and various lines in 
the several Obey files have hints as to how to do this.

Some while ago I asked if it would be legal to send to individuals 
copies of my modified version, and I never got a clear answer to this.

Best wishes,

Peter.

-- 
Peter Young (zfc Os) and family
Prestbury, Cheltenham, Glos. GL52, England
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
pnyo...@ormail.co.uk

Re: #2988 hanging

[george greenfield]

In message <20151013152414.gb23...@platypus.pepperfish.net>
  Rob Kendrick  wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 04:39:32AM -0800, Dave Higton wrote:
>> On Tue, 13 Oct 2015 13:09:27 +0100 George Greenfield wrote:
>> 
>> > I must confess to having used Ctrl-Break from time to time, when faced
>> > with a frozen desktop, without evident ill-effects. Is it considered
>> > worse than powering-off at the switch, which is the only other option
>> > AFAIK?
>> 
>> Probably, although I'm not really qualified to answer.
> 
> You can assume the following simplification:
> 
> Alt-Break allows you to force a stuck task to call
> Wimp_CloseDown, essentially causing it to quit.  Note that this
> forced quit isn't clean: any open files will remain so, and any
> memory allocated via dynamic areas or the RMA will be leaked.
> 
> Ctrl-Break essentially calls OS_Reset, which causes a software
> reset that for all but the very most obscure situations is
> functionally identical to pressing the hardware reset button.
> 
> The danger with Ctrl-Break and the hardware reset button is that
> FileCore might be trying to do something at the time (or be
> struck trying), leaving the file system in an unclean state,
> requiring the use of something like Disknight to fix.
> 
> Summary: Always try Alt-Break first (and the a clean shutdown
> straight after), and only Ctrl-Break/Hardware reset button as a
> last resort.
> 
> B.
> 
Thanks - that's a very clear explanation!

-- 
George