RE: cybernetics and the Internet, Was: nettime NNA...
On Sat, 10 Jun 2006, Ronda Hauben wrote: The point there was to encourage cross disciplinary discussion and to break through the communication boundaries of the various disciplines. But the Macy Conferences were actually about feedback systems, not about mathematical philosophy to open social order as far as the reading I have done. Ronda - As I too stated, the Macy conferences were about feedback systems and exposing cybernetics, a 'mathematical philosophy', to a variety of social and hard scientists; encouraging cross-disciplinarity through this way of thinking. And I'm sure you would agree that this 'mathematical philosophy' had a massive impact on many fields, which in turn have contributed to shaping society as a whole. But, I want to take this a step further, recognizing the resonance and hegemony of this feedback-based-autopoetic-OPEN-systems-approach in today's SOCIAL ORDER. To some extent we are agreeing, but for some reason you don't seem to want recognize any of the military/surveillance/intelligence/social-order legacy that is clearly a part of the history of these conferences, 'open feedback systems', the internet and cybernetics as a whole. So be it. That is my reading. The effort to look at feedback or self organizing systems across different disciplines meant that the research was different depending on the different disciplines yes, of course the research was different, but it was all based on the same 'mathematical philosophy': Cybernetics! Such unity of thought was the point! So, thank you for your references. I have read the Wiener and am very aware of 'netizen' thinking. I will take a look at the Macy proceedings you have suggested... But like Mark, I too would recommend that you (re)read some Wiener, particularly the 1st Edition of 'The Human Use of Human Beings': On Sat, 10 Jun 2006, Newmedia wrote: Wiener's refusal to apply cybernetics to the effort to control people and populations is documented in his introduction to Cybernetics. In this he names Mead and her husband Gregory Bateson (secy of the Macy conferences) as well as Kurt Lewin. All three of these *were* military supported and motivated. Weiner wrote The Human Use of Human Beings because of his massive concerns about military use of cybernetics (you have to read the 1950 first edition to understand this) and then around 1953 he gave up this fight -- because he was convinced that he had lost and the military had won. He rewrote Human Use and dropped out of the cybernetics field. best, ~kcw # distributed via nettime: no commercial use without permission # nettime is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: [EMAIL PROTECTED] and info nettime-l in the msg body # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime@bbs.thing.net
RE: cybernetics and the Internet, Was: nettime NNA...
On Thu, 8 Jun 2006, kenneth c. werbin wrote: I was not intending to suggest that the attendees of the Macy conferences were military mathematicians (although some like Wiener clearly were), rather that the Macy conferences saw social scientists, like Mead, consider questions of cybernetics and feedback in their fields, as well as in greater society. This is clearly attested to in the title of the inaugral Macy conference, Feedback Mechanisms and Circular Causal Systems in Biological and Social Systems, held on March 8-9, 1946*. The Macy conferences were but one means of spreading the gospel of cybernetics to academics at large. Indeed, I in no way intended to reduce the cybernetic community of the 40's and 50's to some militray plot for the purpose of control, rather I wanted to illuminate the applicability and resonance of this mathematical philosophy to open social order. But the Macy Conferences were actually about feedback systems, not about mathematical philosophy to open social order as far as the reading I have done. I have read a number of the discussions in the Macy Conference volumes. The point there was to encourage cross disciplinary discussion and to break through the communication boundaries of the various disciplines. The effort to look at feedback or self organizing systems across different disciplines meant that the research was different depending on the different disciplines Does this fit with your reading? No what you suggest doesn't fit in with my reading. Which books on the Macy conferences would you recommend? First I recommend you read some of the conferences themselves. There is a relatively new edition containing all five of them Cybernetics | Kybernetik The Macy-Conferences 1946.1953 Volume 1 Transactions/Protokolle Edited by Claus Pias Published by Diaphanes: Zurich, Berlin The 5 Macy Conference volumes are included in this edition and are in English though the publisher is German. Other suggestions: Invention by Wiener Invention: The Care and Feeding of Ideas (Hardcover) by Norbert Wiener, Steve Joshua Heims Book Review of Netizens by Boldur Barbat http://www.ici.ro/ici/revista/sic1998_4/art06.html cybernetics.ref (14%) Article on the Information Processing Techniques Office I am working on: The Information Processing Techniques Office and the Birth of the Internet A Study in Governance http://www.columbia.edu/~rh120/other/misc/lick101.doc It is important to keep in mind that Norbert Wiener at a point in his life didn't do military related work. cheers Ronda * Summaries of all the Macy conference sessions can be found at the American Society for Cybernetics http://www.asc-cybernetics.org/foundations/history/MacySummary.htm best, ~kcw # distributed via nettime: no commercial use without permission # nettime is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: [EMAIL PROTECTED] and info nettime-l in the msg body # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime@bbs.thing.net
Re: cybernetics and the Internet, Was: nettime NNA...
Ronda: but the Macy discussions weren't military or a mathematical philosophy. We've talked about this before . . . that is simply wrong. Of course they were military -- or more specifically a result of the intersection of intelligence interests in the application of social science and the use of private foundations as funding conduits. All of this was direct outgrowth of the development of psychological warfare in WW II. Please read the biography of John J. McCloy, The Chairman, to collect information on the use of the Ford and Rockefeller foundations for these purposes. The Josiah Macy Jr. Foundation was a Rockefeller fellow-traveller and deeply involved in this practice. Their LSD conferences were completely financed by the CIA. They were an integral part of what is now known as MKULTRA. Margaret Mead was part of the Macy group. She was an anthropologist, not a military mathematician. Margaret Mead was high-level intelligence operator. She was directly involved in application of anthropology to war-planning in the Pacific -- including the decision to drop the atom bombs on Japan. Read her various biographies about her activities and world travels. She continued to operate this way until she died. I wondered if you have read any of the Macy meeting books? Yes, I have. Have you gathered an overall dossier on the involvement of those involved at Macy during WW II? With OSS? With British MI6? How many were *not* involved with these intelligence services? None? Most helpful in gaining an understanding of how essentially *all* social science in the 1950's was military funded is Chris Simpson's Science of Coercion. Have you read this very important book? The practice of the CIA broadly supporting social science was true all the way through the Vietnam War, after which Pentagon funding was substantially redirected to direct military purposes. ARPA became DARPA. Btw, this shift is one of the primary reasons why MIT's Media Lab went for commercial funding -- even though the CIA was still one of its primary early supporters. Where does your analysis of this come from? My father William was a personal protege of Norbert Wiener. He was in the room when the term cybernetics was coined. I have spent many years interviewing many of key participants in these events -- since this history is in many ways my own family history. For instance, Wiener's break with McCullough was over the issue of military funding and direction for scientific research -- not the silly psychosexual issues falsely promoted in the recent biography of Wiener. Of this I'm quite certain -- with my father as my original source. Wiener's refusal to apply cybernetics to the effort to control people and populations is documented in his introduction to Cybernetics. In this he names Mead and her husband Gregory Bateson (secy of the Macy conferences) as well as Kurt Lewin. All three of these *were* military supported and motivated. Weiner wrote The Human Use of Human Beings because of his massive concerns about military use of cybernetics (you have to read the 1950 first edition to understand this) and then around 1953 he gave up this fight -- because he was convinced that he had lost and the military had won. He rewrote Human Use and dropped out of the cybernetics field. Likewise, when the Soviets turned to cybernetics, it was very much a military project -- as described to me in detail by one of the earliest Russian participants. Wiener was essentially the only resister. Cybernetics was a military/intelligence project. Both in the West and in the East. I'd be happy to help you work through the details of all this, if you are interested. Best, Mark Stahlman New York City # distributed via nettime: no commercial use without permission # nettime is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: [EMAIL PROTECTED] and info nettime-l in the msg body # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime@bbs.thing.net
RE: cybernetics and the Internet, Was: nettime NNA...
On Wed, 7 Jun 2006, werboon wrote: we fear the -isms they may produce. This is life in open social order, in cybernetic ecumenical society. I agree that there is a legacy to the development of the Internet in the cybernetic developments like the Macy Foundation conferences, but the Macy discussions weren't military or a mathematical philosophy. Margaret Mead was part of the Macy group. She was an anthropologist, not a military mathematician. I wondered if you have read any of the Macy meeting books? Also, Licklider was only at one of the Macy meetings. He was a scientist studying the brain and the perception of sound. To reduce the cybernetic community in the 1940s and 1950s to some military plot for the purpose of control is not an accurate depiction of the material I have read. Where does your analysis of this come from? Thanks. Ronda # distributed via nettime: no commercial use without permission # nettime is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: [EMAIL PROTECTED] and info nettime-l in the msg body # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime@bbs.thing.net
RE: cybernetics and the Internet, Was: nettime NNA...
I was not intending to suggest that the attendees of the Macy conferences were military mathematicians (although some like Wiener clearly were), rather that the Macy conferences saw social scientists, like Mead, consider questions of cybernetics and feedback in their fields, as well as in greater society. This is clearly attested to in the title of the inaugral Macy conference, Feedback Mechanisms and Circular Causal Systems in Biological and Social Systems, held on March 8-9, 1946*. The Macy conferences were but one means of spreading the gospel of cybernetics to academics at large. Indeed, I in no way intended to reduce the cybernetic community of the 40's and 50's to some militray plot for the purpose of control, rather I wanted to illuminate the applicability and resonance of this mathematical philosophy to open social order. Does this fit with your reading? Which books on the Macy conferences would you recommend? * Summaries of all the Macy conference sessions can be found at the American Society for Cybernetics http://www.asc-cybernetics.org/foundations/history/MacySummary.htm best, ~kcw # distributed via nettime: no commercial use without permission # nettime is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: [EMAIL PROTECTED] and info nettime-l in the msg body # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime@bbs.thing.net
