Re: nottime: the end of nettime
Hi everyone. I too wondered what nettime meant to me at the spectre of its possible demise. I don't think of myself as active in the contributing sense, but definitely active in consuming the fantastic output ( and I mean fantastic in terms of volume, speed, and ideas bouncing through the posts). The loss for me would be that I am being exposed to thought and histories I would not come across in other contexts. And yes, not a peep about so many things. But a lot of peeps that have taken me to quite some places. So nettime fuels me in a unique way, big thanks to those who share here. Very interesting and a pleasure to see it (and some of its constituents) in this April 1st relexivity. cheers Colin On 01/04/2015, nettime mod squad wrote: > Dear Nettimers, present and past -- <...> -- + + + + + + + + + + + +64 22 303 5445 http://colinhodson.net - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org
***SPAM*** Re: nottime: the end of nettime
To state the obvious, non-commercial and detached moderation is valuable and sought after, and cannot be bought. The reward chain is obviously broken, as all moderators get is some amount of unsaid appreciation from several hundred people around the world. I guess it may feel unreal - nothing in the physical domain - no drinks, promotions, tenures, sex, or even mention of the topic (I mean nettime). The real question is how to repair the reward chain and make the process sustainable? The machine-mediated real world will not let anything through, except cash. # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org
net.critique in autumn
Many fascinating things are coming out of this sudden burst of self-reflexivity on nettime, and I appreciate the listing of issues that Eric just did. It's also fabulous to hear from so many people who rarely post, like Sean or Peter or Claire or Helen with her fabulous poem. Now that we are collectively able to admit we are not so important, we are obscure, we are mortal, we are really just a collection of far-flung friends who only partially know each other (y saludos a los compas del Cono Sur!) it would indeed be great to go back to use of the list as a more spontaneous sounding-board for ideas, questions, observations about the world in which we live, so influenced by networked communications. Nettime lives because we post on it, so feel freer. David Garcia brought up the idea that embodied meetings make for virtual happiness, which is definitely true (it's the corner bar concept), but the very big question is, what would such meetings be about? If the "summer of the net" is over, and lamentation for the past is just a drag, then what is the most intense net debate one could have "at this moment on the clock of the world," as our dear Detroit (r)evolutionary Grace Lee Boggs likes to say? There are many many answers to that, but here is the beginning of one. Those who actually built the net and experimented with its early uses loved the thing in itself, which became their world. In the meantime, however, the Internet has become a key articulating structure of *the* world, which is a very different thing. The net has reached deeply into social life all over the planet, as an enabling and constraining technology. It did this through a great wave of capitalist expansion which occurred in three phases: first in the 80's, with national telco and US military research and development; then in the 90's, with the tremendous investment in consumer hardware companies, software startups and net.infrastructures of all kinds (local networks, routers, undersea cables and so on); and finally in the 2000's, when both the corporations and the intelligence goons started getting serious about controlling the beast they had helped to create. This "long hot summer of the net" was really a whole phase of capitalist development, which also happened to coincide with the youth, or at least the utopian years, of many early internet users. Yet this phase of development has come to a turning point since sometime around 2008, since the saturation of the planet with networks is now complete, the negative consequences are obvious, the problem of networked-society-and-the-state is now explicitly on the table, and capitalism is desperately looking for something new to invest in. So how would we practice net.critique in autumn? One of things I really love this list for is the collectively generated capacity to come at a question from very many sides in succession: technology, art, philosophy, economics, sociology, daily life, humor, satire, poetry, protest, pointed observation, geographical dispersion, cross-culturalism, you name it. At the heart of that kind of debate is the realization that society works intricately, materially, with precise, hard-wired articulations, and at the same time it works metaphorically, through dreams, aspirations, historical prejudices, impassioned collaborations, hopeful beginnings, missed encounters and all the deliberately produced illusions and generative gaps in understanding that create the dynamics of mediated "democracies" (the definition of that last word being the very core of the issue). I find that capacity for multi-sided debate most enlivening when it turns, as it often does, around a very urgent question: What are the networked societies becoming? How does the saturation of the planet with digital technologies condition the evolution of the mediated "democracies," as these - including the societies of Africa, Asia and Latin America - begin facing a looming array of problems that have only come into focus *after* that long hot summer of the net? For this kind of debate, gray hair is neither a requirement, nor a disadvantage. You have to get at what's new and cuttting edge, from a very particular angle - networked communications - and you have to place those developments within a far-reaching synthesis that takes time and experience to put together. Looking back over relatively recent discussions, there was a thread about "dissensus within the Bay Area elites" that led to some very strong debates about how core actors in the communications industry were positioning themselves, and what consequences this might have on global societies. This corresponds to the question about "netarchical capitalism" that Michel Bauwens and friends have been developing at the p2p foundation. How are the emancipatory possibilities of networked communications being systematized into extremely pervasive operating routines, and where are the cr
Re: Nettime sings My Way:
Ha! Very nice. Happy 20th birthday, nettime. You don't look a day over five. * * * * * | | | | | @ | @~@~@~@~@ @@@ On Apr 3, 2015, at 9:26 AM, helen evans <[1]he...@hehe.org> wrote: And now, I unsubscribe <...> # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org
Re: nottime: the end of nettime
dear nettimers, So, nettime is not, for the moment going to disappear, and I'm for one quite happy about that. I feel ambivalent though about the way in which the issue of 'taking stock' of the current substance (or lack thereof) of the list and its extended constituency (to avoid the overused term `community') has been raised. For me the greatest quality of nettime is its continuity and continued presence, with all its defects and shortcomings, but still. And this is in no small part due to the continued efforts of Ted and Felix keeping this edifice alive and dragging it through extended periods of sluggishness. I used the word `monumental' in a private mail to Ted the other day (off-list) and saw that he already integrated it in his recent negation of all the shoulder patting rumbling through the ascii flows... Well OK let's move on then. I think there are a number of issues that need to be unpicked from this `intervention' that require some reflexion and possibly also some actions to follow up on. First an uneasy one that so far only Ted dared address (yesterday): ownership of the list and what extends from it - Ted and Felix don't know if they could, or have the `right', to close this list down even if they wanted to - despite their extremely extended `stewardship' of the whole affair. And Ted's right - I don't think that this list and what it extends into is or should be / can be `owned' by anyone, and therefore nobody in particular has the right to shut it down. Still, things need to be maintained, both technically, editorially and as a living social entity - all that doesn't happen by itself and if the extended constituency would not find somehow a solution for it the thing would in effect disappear if Ted and Felix stopped taking care of things. That's an unresolved dilemma that afflicts many of such invaluable not for profit / not for glory enterprises - a bit of `crowd funding' will not solve this. David Garcia is talking about `resilience' instead of that other overused term 'sustainability', but we don't know exactly how to organise this beyond personal sacrifice (sacrificial labour is a more apt term here than `affective'). That's an important one for our list - how to solve this (not just for nettime)? But then there are a whole bunch of specific issues lumped together in the original posting that should in fact be taken separately, I think, before we make a judgement about the larger whole. I've copied the paragraph again at the bottom of this message. So let's unpick: - the summer of the internet is over: that is in itself already a question whether or not this moment and its momentum is over? I actually don't really think so, but it has become a much more complicated space of activity to get to grips with - the walled gardens of (anti-) `social' networking platforms (that everybody nonetheless seems to flock to, so where are the alternatives that are so unlike the corporate mainstream?). The revelation that the control society was every bit as bad as we had imagined it in our worst nightmares... The sad fact that the massive participation in online media and self-mediation has not by itself and of itself lead to a more open, democratic, equitable society (or should we say `collective'?). - the former `East' for the most part does not exist anymore - it is now rather a vanguard for political experiments that set a tone for much of Europe to follow. What was still termed `enduring post-communism' during Next 5 Minutes 4, back in 2003, now really seems to have come to an end. The rise of chauvinist authoritarianism voted into power in Hungary is not so much a regression to the past as it is a prefiguration of a future we must desperately try to avoid. - that we have so little reports and discussions about what is happening on Russia's borders is actually hardly a surprise. The only ones who could offer us a genuinely interesting perspective on what is going on are the ones inside Russia, who live that situation. But they will not speak out in public - it's too dangerous. Do it and not only will you put your own life at risk (think of Oleg Kyreev's so-called 'suicide' after openly supporting the idea of an orange revolution in Russia - we will never forget that!), but also the livelihood of your friends and family (losing jobs, benefits, housing, opportunities) - this is all very real and the last thing you will do when in such a situation is speak out in public (archived for eternity). No wonder there's no voices on this list that could enlighten us. We are very much back to the good old days of `Kremlin-watchers' who attempt to interpret spurious signs of tightly controlled (media-)enactments that could mean anything or nothing at all - really.. - China, M
Nettime sings My Way:
And now, I unsubscribe And so we face the final net-curtain. My friends, I'll say it clear, I'll state our case, of which I'm certain. We've signed, a list that's full. We've traveled east on e-highways; And more, much more than this, We posted our way. Emails, we've had a few; But then again, too few to mention. We checked, what we had on cue And read them through, without exemption. We sought, uncharted discourse; Each war of words, turned over next day And more, much more than this, We posted our way. Yes, there were threads, I'm sure you knew When we bit off more than we could chew. But through it all, when there was doubt, We wrote it up and spit it out. But Facebook won and now we fall; And posted our way. We've loved, We've laughed and cried. We've had our fill; our share of losing. And now, as tears subside, We find it all so amusing. To think, we read all that; And may I say - not in a bold way, "Oh no, no more ascii, We posted our way". For what is a list, what has it got? If not ourselves, then it has naught. To say the things we truly feel; And not the words, of those who kneel. The record shows, we took the blows - And posted our way! Yes it was our way. # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org
Re: nottime: the end of nettime
Quoth David Garica: > One other thought though there is much talk of 'sharing' nettime > writers used to share (and risk) far more. I may be mistaken but as the > community (dangerous word) and its discourse has developed it has also > professionalised and not always in a good way. Where once writers would > have rehearsed their ideas here in rough form I suspect that the > pressures around academic/publishing commodification creates a greater a > reluctance expose the ideas before publication. Could this be why it > feels a less risky, energetic and generous space or am I (as usual) > being nostalgic. I'd guess this is mostly due to it being archived and easily searchable. I certainly find it harder to take risks and admit vulnerablility in such an environment. Though archiving and searchability are certainly useful. One answer is pseudonymity, but that brings its own limitations. # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org
the end? or another beginning?
Hello, As T say, "Nettime really is turning twenty, so this is a good time to think about what it wants to be when it grows up. Often, describing what we have done is a better way to start than asking what we should do." What WE should do and what WE can do. Very pertinent questions given the context and current global state of uncertainty/s. Why do so many people seem to have this aversion to the word community? Yes, its loaded but ideas like 'community' are invariably loaded. NETTIME is one of those visible aspects of a community (as contentious as the term might be) and its survival, or rather transformation, is linked to the web of contributors, respondents and lurkers out there who (for whatever reasons) feel some attachment to a community of ideas; a community of discourse. What prompted the origins of this discourse and how do we maintain some continuity with those origins? Is that possible? Communities evolve, ideas evolve, and ultimately institutions/ organisations/collectives etc. transform themselves because they adapt and reformulate their objectives and identity as a social space. Sorry that this is so fragmentary but I'm suffering from a kind of proposal fatigue; Like so many others have mentioned, I think NETTIME is a significant and special place that encourages a flow of ideas; I peruse many blogs, news feeds, etc… but NETTIME is unique and invaluable... cheers allan # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org
Re: nottime: the end of nettime
what everyone else has said. I don't think I've ever posted maybe briefly commented once or twice but always read. Is this party going to reconvene elsewhere, like on facebook maybe? Can I get an invite? # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org
Re: nottime: the end of nettime
I've been relatively quiet on nettime; I've submitted more than has been allowed through, and I found that disenheartening. At one point, one of the moderators answered with a critique that I felt should have appeared on the list, instead of privately. What I find missing, what for me was there earlier on, was a freer, less strict environment; at this point, I do a lot of self-censoring because I send anything to nettime, and that doesn't feel right. (Maybe 1 out of 4 posts I have sent actually went through.) The discussion doesn't seem to allow for a critical poetics, or at least the poetics I've submitted at times. So I have mixed feelings about nettime - while I don't think it should be a free-for-all, and I read what I can, I also think it should have a more open submission policy; otherwise it reproduces a kind of back-channel authoirty. Perhaps my submissions don't belong on the list; I do wish that had been up to the subscribers to decide, not the moderators. - Alan == email archive http://sondheim.rupamsunyata.org/ web http://www.alansondheim.org / cell 718-813-3285 music: http://www.espdisk.com/alansondheim/ current text http://www.alansondheim.org/td.txt == # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org
Re: nottime: the end of nettime
Hei Brad - amazing that there is any accolade whatsoever for this institutionalised censorship! give us less of what you think we might read! how nice to be sheltered from unwanted intrusion into your comfy institutionally-sponsored lives! I understand that I don't know what I don't see on nettime, but I'm smart enough to have other sources of information that is mission-critical to my own existence, and don't rely on Ted and Felix to 100% determine what choices I make in my life. They have taken some of their lifetimes to do this moderation/filtering task which makes nettime more tolerable than, say, the old 7-11 list, etc etc, and for that gift of their time that they will never get back, I am thankful. I don't think there is a conspiracy behind every post. You cannot politically defy the institutions when all you really wanted was to be clasped to their bosoms and hope in time to be cherished under the very framework of furthermore, I have for the duration of this nettime project not had any particular 'institutional affiliation' -- quite to the contrary, I am living on a sustainable retrofit project on a small house in the Arizona mountains. Yes, I do hope to make a small profit in a year or two on my sweat equity. And indeed, this week's project is retro-fitting a defunct freezer and turning it into a sizeable worm farm so that I can further enrich the poorly treated soil on my property. At some level, it puzzles me that you pay any attention to nettime if it is so incredibly annoying to you. John PS - not to mention that I have in the past supported your work, you may have forgotten this... -- ++ Dr. John Hopkins, BSc, MFA, PhD grounded on a granite batholith twitter: @neoscenes http://tech-no-mad.net/blog/ ++ # distributed via : no commercial use without permission #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org
