Re: Taking sides

[tbyfield]

On 6 Nov 2018, at 3:50, Ryan Griffis wrote:


I take neither side at Charlottesville


Need anyone say more?


Nope. 'Charlottesville' was a neo-nazi riot in which a person was 
murdered. That's a good reason to take a side — against neo-nazis. To 
not take a side is, in effect, to condone that murder. I think it's 
reasonable to say that condoning murders, however indirectly, crosses a 
clear line on this list. For that reason, I just flipped the mod switch 
on Bard: his messages will be held for review. He's given us a lot to 
think about lately, so reviewing new ones won't be a high priority.


This decision is mine alone — I haven't talked with Felix about it.

Comments and criticisms are warmly welcome.

Cheers,
Ted
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Taking sides

[Ryan Griffis]

>
> I take neither side at Charlottesville


Need anyone say more?
As we in the US have been saying for years about the Republican party's
turn to explicit and open authoritarianism, believe people when they tell
you who they are.
In my experience, real pragmatism follows action and results. The people
moving the Left forward in the US are overwhelmingly POC women and queer
organizers. Many of them are trained and educated in political Marxism, as
well as cultural and political organizing through institutions like
Highlander, the Boggs Center, The Allied Media Conference, etc. They have
developed very sophisticated responses to inter-movement/inter-community
forms of conflict resolution that avoid the use of state intervention. They
have done amazing cross-movement organizing that includes labor, indigenous
nations, people who have been incarcerated, etc. They seem perfectly able
to find strength in the recognition of intersectional forms of oppression
and then take them on without saying, "No, but this philosophy is the one
we should stick to!"
People trying to convince me that these folks' life experiences aren't
meaningful to the political struggle I see all around me, while labeling
them with the name of a dead European philosopher, just sound irrelevant at
best.
I'm not really looking to continue this "debate," but wanted to add my
voice to those saying what seems pretty obvious.
Best,
Ryan
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Ash & Kirsty - the brilliant voices of contemporary Marxism

[Alexander Bard]

Dear All

Ash and Kirsty's conversation is flawless. A million thanks to Ari for
posting the link. These two young women do they exactly what I have been
asking for, they put class first and identities second and thereby arrive
at a Marxist analysis of contemporary society from which we can build a
proper left for the future.

I have said nothing else here, even if my tonality has been different than
Ash and Kirsty's stylish performance. So if we seriously discuss substance
and not just tonality, I frankly don't understand how you can celebrate
awesome Ash and Kirsty on the one hand, Brian, and then dismiss my
arguments as "reactionary" on the other. What exactly is the difference
between what we have argued? Ash and Kirsty are as beautifully Marxist as I
have asked for. So what's the deal here?

As for Nettime, this at least was an open and curious leftist forum on the
relationship between humans and technology.for years. Lovink and I first
met through a shared informationalist reading of Deleuze. Maybe that is no
longer the case. Maybe Marxist Libertarians like say myself, Brendan
O'Neill, Tom Slater and Joanna Williams from Spiked Online, Peggy Sastre
who started the French all-female opposition to the Hollywood-driven #metoo
campaign with Catherine Deneuve, et cetera, are no longer welcome. Maybe
Marxist thinkers who agree with me on every point I have written here, like
Slavoj Zizek and Alain Badiou, are also no longer welcome. Maybe white men
in general are no longer welcome unless they shut up infinitely and admit
eternal guilt for their gender and skin color.

Maybe Nettime is and should be precisely the identitarianism-only forum
that some members apparently would like it to be when they scream for
"exclusion exclusion". We have seen this happen with many Rousseauian
political sects in the past. It could certainly happen here too. Maybe it
already did. And I have no problem with that. Like Angela, I would just
like the founders and moderators of Nettime let us know what their
intentions are going forward. Should I not fit in within these ambitions,
please note that I am more than happy to leave. And probably many other
Nettime members too who have been supportive of me lately but not even
bothered to post this to the list. The ceiling is apparently way lower now
here than it was a few years ago. But I'm fine with that if that is what is
desired. Viva "Nettime The Safe Zone" in that case!

Finally to Florian, I am anything but "querfront". I'm the exact opposite.
I take neither side at Charlottesville, I do not unite the two. It is
actually precisely the unification of a Hitler camp and a Stalin camp that
I would want to avoid at all costs. I'm a Marxist Libertarian of the French
bent like thousands and thousands of leftists since the 18th century. An
avid reader of Hegel, Nietzsche, Marx, Freud, Kristeva, Paglia, Deleuze,
Foucault and Zizek. Meaning I'm also happy to collaborate with liberals and
conservatives but neither with the extreme right nor with the extreme
Rousseauian sects to the left.

If my ideological position is not welcome on Nettime, I'm happy to leave.
No hard feelings. The Intellectual Deep Web and other forums are full of
tech thinkers who share my convictions. I will probably meet and hang out
with people like Ash and Kirsty there too. But a policy decision of where
the limits lay when it comes to ideology and tonality on Nettime would be
most welcome. Fully agreed. And thank you for listening before I shut up
and leave in the case.

Best intentions indeed
Alexander

Den sön 4 nov. 2018 kl 22:03 skrev Brian Holmes <
bhcontinentaldr...@gmail.com>:

> Alexander's positions have been thoroughly critiqued from many quarters.
> After building on those critiques, Ian has just enumerated his many
> reactionary statements. I think it's definitive and I won't engage with him
> anymore.
>
> Ari just sent in a video where a brilliant young woman, Ash Sarkar, talks
> about the deliberate persecution of black radical socialists after the
> 1960s, and about the way that leftist social movements were weakened as a
> result. She goes on to develop a class analysis which doesn't diss off
> intersectionality (that's the main identity politics concept she discusses)
> but instead, fills the gaps she sees in present-day politics on the left.
> In the middle of it she invokes Angela Davis, a black Marxist feminist who
> was not killed in the 1970s and went on, among other things, to help start
> the movement against mass incarceration which has been one of the key
> forces of change in American life during these last years. The only point
> where I might disagree with her is that Angela Davis has certainly not been
> forgotten in the US, though maybe in the UK, so in that case, let's
> remember a little.
>
> The difference is: talking about specific people and events in the
> present, building constructive positions, and covering an amazing amount of
> ground in short words.
>
> Check it out if 

Re: apropos of nothing

[Alessandra Renzi]

I have always seen Nettime as a platform for productive conversations of 
different kinds and have welcomed even the unpleasant moments of friction and 
egotism that have been part of Nettime debates over the years. The stakes were 
different.

A couple of days ago, the University of Toronto’ Munk centre sponsored a debate 
between David Frum and Steve Bannon. Despite massive protests, the debate was 
rationalised with all sorts of claims about wanting to expose flawed ideas and 
other similar nonsense (Canada can easily forget to examine its own 
government-sponsored violence when shining the light on its bad bad neighbour). 
Meanwhile Bannon got yet another chance to normalize hate and legitimize his 
position as a thinker and orator at home and abroad. 

I have seen the moderators of this list step in other times before to filter 
unwanted content. I understand that shutting down conversations may be a bit of 
a conundrum for some but there is such a thing as anti-fa moderation, and it is 
necessary.

Please keep Nettime fascist-free,
Ale  

> On Nov 3, 2018, at 8:12 PM, Angela Mitropoulos  
> wrote:
> 
> It is a simple and straightforward question that I would like answered. It 
> makes no inferences about whether recruitment is effective, or even 
> deliberate rather than aesthetic. But I'm grateful for the evidence you've 
> furnished, dear, about the way in which women are told to calm down and shut 
> up, no matter the tone they take, so that those who think women and black 
> people are less than human and not entitled to take up space can keep ranting 
> on at length about how everyone other than white guys are less than human. I 
> mean, I'm grateful that you've illustrated the reason why I asked this 
> question in the first place. That said, I have no interest in debating this 
> further. 
> 
> I simply repeat my question, and would like it answered. Preferably in the 
> negative. But if in the affirmative, then I would like to suggest that 
> Nettime be shuttered because any benefit it had for creating a better world 
> has long past. The world doesn't need a longform version of Gab, or Gab for 
> that matter. 
> 
> Angela
> 
> On Sun, 4 Nov 2018 at 10:29, Willem van Weelden  > wrote:
> dear angela,
> relax dear.
> it is ok.
> noone is recruiting anyone here.
> chill.
> best,
> w
> 
> 
> > On 03 Nov 2018, at 23:04, Angela Mitropoulos  > > wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > What is Nettime's policy on whether or not it should give fascists a 
> > platform from which to recruit? 
> > 
> > Angela 
> > 
> > 
> > 
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Re: Complexity and nostalgia

[frank . 20 . tigrero]

>> I cannot believe we are still debating "class vs. identity"

we're not, at least nobody really is except for white supremacist trolls like 
AB, as Alice, Angela and Nina have pointed out.

Then some dude tells Angela to "chill". Pretty revolting stuff.

Agree with Angela that there should be a 100% noplatforming of fascists and tD 
and alt-right trolls. There isn't "reasoning" with them or pursuing fact as 
antidote to inbred supremacy.

Some days I really wish when this list was moderated.

Frank

- Original message -
From: Felix Stalder 
To: nettim...@kein.org
Subject:  Complexity and nostalgia 
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2018 15:10:31 +0100

I cannot believe we are still debating "class vs. identity". If you look
at the current wave of far-right strong mean, it's seems obvious their
project is the restoration of race AND class privilege AND patriarchy.

Behind this, in my view, is a jump in social complexity (globalization,
Internet, climate crises, multipolar geopolitics etc) over the last 30
years and the inability to find forms of governance adequate to
contemporary social realities.

The neoliberal center has tried to manage this through expansion of
market forces, in the best Hayekian tradition seeing the market as the
ultimate information processor [1]. At the periphery (social as well as
geographic) this never worked particularly well and in 2008, it came
crashing down in the center as well. That created a giant nostalgia for
a less complex word which the right eagerly fills.

In my view, the call to return to a more classic class analysis also has
the whiff of such a nostalgia.

We -- lets say cultural producers of any kind -- should not give in to
this. Our task, in my view, is to develop new languages, and new
esthetics, to account for, and deal with, the sharply increased
complexity. That means, that there is no single privileged point-of-view
or layer of analysis. If there is any strength, it will come out of
multiplicity, out of ways of translating one set of explicit experiences
into another one, showing that how and why resonate with each other.

That's not all that's needed, of course, but might be one of the ways
where culture can generate agency.


















[1] Hayek, Friedrich A. 1945. “The Use of Knowledge in Society,”
American Economic Review (Sept.), 35 (4): 519–30.


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Re: Does Nettime have a code of conduct, policies or other governance mechanisms?

[Johnatan Petterson]

hey, let's do a inter section rhizome with the various ways people -
animals think populate the NettTime list & create forward- culture
aesthetics-

perhaps to go in the sense of Felix Stadler who already advocated towards
new aesthetics in new kinds of medium to answer the question of work,
class, values and culture:
here is my last movie, <> (i am currently working on
<> which is a feature i do all by myself)
  https://www.brokenvessels.xyz/
bisous à tous
Sylvia & Johnatan

Le lun. 5 nov. 2018 à 05:44, Ana Ulin  a écrit :

> That is a great question, Angela. I, too, would love to know if there are
> any policy, code of conduct or other mechanism that governs what is or is
> not acceptable in this space.
>
> I've been listening in on Nettime for a few weeks now, trying to decide if
> it is a good fit for me. The fact that Willem's intentionally rude and
> dismissive response to Angela seems to be welcome here, coupled with all
> the airtime that has been given to Mr Best Intentions, suggests that this
> space is either wholly ungoverned or that such behavior is explicitly
> welcome.
>
> Cheers,
> Ana
>
> On Sat, Nov 3, 2018 at 4:21 PM Angela Mitropoulos <
> angela.mitropou...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> What is Nettime's policy on whether or not it should give fascists a
>> platform from which to recruit?
>>
>> Angela
>>
>>
>>
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>
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Re: nettime-l Digest, Vol 134, Issue 18

[Neil Walker]

- next part --
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL: <
> >
> http://mx.kein.org/pipermail/nettime-l/attachments/20181104/6a99193f/attachment-0001.html
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2018 21:45:25 -0700
> > From: Ana Ulin 
> > To: angela.mitropou...@gmail.com
> > Cc: nettim...@kein.org
> > Subject:  Does Nettime have a code of conduct, policies or
> > other governance mechanisms?
> > Message-ID:
> >  > g...@mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > That is a great question, Angela. I, too, would love to know if there are
> > any policy, code of conduct or other mechanism that governs what is or is
> > not acceptable in this space.
> >
> > I've been listening in on Nettime for a few weeks now, trying to decide
> if
> > it is a good fit for me. The fact that Willem's intentionally rude and
> > dismissive response to Angela seems to be welcome here, coupled with all
> > the airtime that has been given to Mr Best Intentions, suggests that this
> > space is either wholly ungoverned or that such behavior is explicitly
> > welcome.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Ana
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 3, 2018 at 4:21 PM Angela Mitropoulos <
> > angela.mitropou...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > What is Nettime's policy on whether or not it should give fascists a
> > > platform from which to recruit?
> > >
> > > Angela
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > #  distributed via : no commercial use without permission
> > > #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,
> > > #  collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets
> > > #  more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l
> > > #  archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nett...@kein.org
> > > #  @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:
> > -- next part --
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL: <
> >
> http://mx.kein.org/pipermail/nettime-l/attachments/20181103/7df0ecb9/attachment.html
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2018 20:21:13 -0700
> > From: Brian Holmes 
> > To: nettime 
> > Subject:  Ash Sarkar video
> > Message-ID:
> >  > zi6...@mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > Alexander's positions have been thoroughly critiqued from many quarters.
> > After building on those critiques, Ian has just enumerated his many
> > reactionary statements. I think it's definitive and I won't engage with
> him
> > anymore.
> >
> > Ari just sent in a video where a brilliant young woman, Ash Sarkar, talks
> > about the deliberate persecution of black radical socialists after the
> > 1960s, and about the way that leftist social movements were weakened as a
> > result. She goes on to develop a class analysis which doesn't diss off
> > intersectionality (that's the main identity politics concept she
> discusses)
> > but instead, fills the gaps she sees in present-day politics on the left.
> > In the middle of it she invokes Angela Davis, a black Marxist feminist
> who
> > was not killed in the 1970s and went on, among other things, to help
> start
> > the movement against mass incarceration which has been one of the key
> > forces of change in American life during these last years. The only point
> > where I might disagree with her is that Angela Davis has certainly not
> been
> > forgotten in the US, though maybe in the UK, so in that case, let's
> > remember a little.
> >
> > The difference is: talking about specific people and events in the
> present,
> > building constructive positions, and covering an amazing amount of ground
> > in short words.
> >
> > Check it out if you missed it:
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn5_-jA2X18
> >
> > best, Brian
> > -- next part --
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL: <
> >
> http://mx.kein.org/pipermail/nettime-l/attachments/20181103/9ecff8a8/attachment.html
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > #  distributed via : no commercial use without permission
> > #is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,
> > #  collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets
> > #  more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l
> >
> > End of nettime-l Digest, Vol 134, Issue 16
> > **
> >
> -- next part --
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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>
> End of nettime-l Digest, Vol 134, Issue 18
> **
>


-- 
Neil Walker
21A Pretoria Avenue
Toronto, ON  M4K 1T2
416 949-7088
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Help

[J Contreras]

I want to unsubscribe to your mailing list

El dom., 4 nov 2018 8:21 p. m.,  escribió:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>1. Re: Complexity and nostalgia (Hoofd, I.M. (Ingrid))
>2. Does Nettime have a code of conduct,  policies or other
>   governance mechanisms? (Ana Ulin)
>3. Ash Sarkar video (Brian Holmes)
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 07:00:59 +
> From: "Hoofd, I.M. (Ingrid)" 
> To: "nettime-l@mail.kein.org" 
> Subject: Re:  Complexity and nostalgia
> Message-ID:
> <7938e6aff79c1a498fff683c7b09ab0a2686d...@wp0045.soliscom.uu.nl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> Hi folks,
>
> Lurker here who almost climbed into her pen after many years of silence to
> respond to A.B.s BS and then decided that he's not worth responding too -
> plus others responded so eloquently already (many thanks Alice, Ian,
> Florian and Nina for your excellent remarks!)
>
> On a related and slightly selfish note, I've been looking for some texts
> that discuss the intersection of
> capitalism/patriarchy/colonialism/racism/technology for a reading group of
> artists/academics. Have read Sylvia Federici's work which is good but not
> quite satisfying. Anyone any suggestions? :-)
>
> Cheers, Ingrid.
>
>
> Sent from my HTC
>
> - Reply message -
> From: "Nina Tempor?r" 
> To: "nettime-l@mail.kein.org" 
> Subject:  Complexity and nostalgia
> Date: Sun, Nov 4, 2018 00:36
>
>
>
>
> Wow, nettime?s very own James Damore moment -
> And hardly anyone calls him out.
>
> I cannot believe how easily so many people here allowed A.B. to
> intellectually-click-bait
> them into a discussion just because he whispered the magic words ?Marx?
> and ?class?,
> And willingly delivered him material to refine his language for his
> pseudo-philosophical
> White male ?ngst-driven project,
> Even after he had already lashed out in a dangerously generalized way
> against academia,
> After he had already generally denounced identity politics as self-pity
> and whining, after he
> Had claimed gender & race as having no social realities, after he had
> judged the welfare
> State as an infantilization of society and, on top of all, had totally
> ridiculously indulged himself
> In a teenage-like invention rage of cock-culture-worshipping neologisms
> that he obviously enjoys
> To decorate his little short-20th-Century binary phantasy land with.
>
> While a few of the answers with serious reactions to the classism question
> were really a
> Pleasure to read and very much worth considering under different premises,
> I don?t understand
> why almost nobody here (except for Alice, Ian, and Florian - thanks for
> your interventions) did see
> The contradiction that the very same people he claims to be wanting to
> work with in that new class
> War he dreams of, get insulted so badly and in a hierarchy-reproducing
> manner, that a future
> Cooperation is being boycotted before it has even started.
>
> Is that really only a sad lack of strategic thinking? Or not rather
> revealing how inclusive his
> New class war phantasy actually is, and whose perspective he expects to be
> adopted as
> Conceptual lead?
>
> There is a big difference between disagreement and lashing out in a way
> that reveals absolute
> Entitlement, and even worse: the assumption to be ?safe? when stating such
> stuff in a place
> Like nettime mailing list.
>
> It?s so tiring to be forced to point out, once more, that entitlement is
> key in this problematic:
>
> While Alexander and his followers have very well understood that investing
> into digital literacy
> Is an absolute necessity if they want to survive in these times, any
> knowledge update in relation to
> Gender & anti-racism debates is shrugged of as community-specific
> expertise (and commented
> With the reproach of having an only self-healing effect) instead of
> understood as the fundamental,
> Constitutive (not so new) change of perspective, without which no thorough
> analysis of class
> Struggle can withstand.
>
> It was really interesting to read Dan?s report/ analysis of the beginning
> of ?identity politics? in the US
> (In Europe, I assume, this is a slightly different story) and his
> acknowledgement/ claim that it is his
> Generation's own fault not to have passed on the historic context to the
> next generation.
> I would really like to engage in this discussion by asking if it is really
> about