Re: [Nix-dev] Feature request: replace the Darwin stdenv with the pure Darwin stdenv

[Wout Mertens]

+1000 on just switching, pure-darwin rocks, impure has constant issues and
we need more eyeballs.

In case of severe breakage we can keep a non-building channel on impure so
people can get at the old binaries…

On Fri, Oct 2, 2015, 18:10 zimbatm  wrote:

> Looking forward to see the merge happening. Right now Darwin is totally
> unusable for me because of the OSX upgrade.
>
> On Fri, 2 Oct 2015 at 16:52 Eric Seidel  wrote:
>
>> I'm tentatively in favor of making the switch too. I'm going to test my
>> environment against pure-darwin this weekend.
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 2, 2015, at 08:03, Anthony Cowley wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > > On Oct 2, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Daniel Peebles 
>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > If nobody objects, I think we should just switch over. The only
>> people interested in maintaining the darwin ecosystem on Nix don't really
>> want to have to maintain two parallel stdenvs, and unless someone stands up
>> to fight for the old impure stdenv, I think everyone will be long-term
>> better off with the pure one. Yes, there will be some short- and
>> medium-term pain during the switch, but there already is with the El
>> Capitan upgrade.
>> >
>> > I vote to go ahead with this, too. Getting just a little help from hydra
>> > in terms of binaries will make it a lot easier to contribute to
>> > pure-Darwin.
>> >
>> > Anthony
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > >
>> > >> On Fri, Oct 2, 2015 at 3:01 AM, Michael Sperber <
>> sper...@deinprogramm.de> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> Daniel Peebles  writes:
>> > >>
>> > >> > Probably obvious, but I'm in favor of switching/merging :)
>> > >>
>> > >> +1
>> > >>
>> > >> --
>> > >> Regards,
>> > >> Mike
>> > >>
>> > >> ___
>> > >> nix-dev mailing list
>> > >> nix-dev@lists.science.uu.nl
>> > >> http://lists.science.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/nix-dev
>> > >
>> > > ___
>> > > nix-dev mailing list
>> > > nix-dev@lists.science.uu.nl
>> > > http://lists.science.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/nix-dev
>> > ___
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>> > nix-dev@lists.science.uu.nl
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-- 

Wout.
(typed on mobile, excuse terseness)
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Re: [Nix-dev] Feature request: replace the Darwin stdenv with the pure Darwin stdenv

[zimbatm]

Looking forward to see the merge happening. Right now Darwin is totally
unusable for me because of the OSX upgrade.

On Fri, 2 Oct 2015 at 16:52 Eric Seidel  wrote:

> I'm tentatively in favor of making the switch too. I'm going to test my
> environment against pure-darwin this weekend.
>
> On Fri, Oct 2, 2015, at 08:03, Anthony Cowley wrote:
> >
> >
> > > On Oct 2, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Daniel Peebles 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > If nobody objects, I think we should just switch over. The only people
> interested in maintaining the darwin ecosystem on Nix don't really want to
> have to maintain two parallel stdenvs, and unless someone stands up to
> fight for the old impure stdenv, I think everyone will be long-term better
> off with the pure one. Yes, there will be some short- and medium-term pain
> during the switch, but there already is with the El Capitan upgrade.
> >
> > I vote to go ahead with this, too. Getting just a little help from hydra
> > in terms of binaries will make it a lot easier to contribute to
> > pure-Darwin.
> >
> > Anthony
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >> On Fri, Oct 2, 2015 at 3:01 AM, Michael Sperber <
> sper...@deinprogramm.de> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Daniel Peebles  writes:
> > >>
> > >> > Probably obvious, but I'm in favor of switching/merging :)
> > >>
> > >> +1
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Regards,
> > >> Mike
> > >>
> > >> ___
> > >> nix-dev mailing list
> > >> nix-dev@lists.science.uu.nl
> > >> http://lists.science.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/nix-dev
> > >
> > > ___
> > > nix-dev mailing list
> > > nix-dev@lists.science.uu.nl
> > > http://lists.science.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/nix-dev
> > ___
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Re: [Nix-dev] Feature request: replace the Darwin stdenv with the pure Darwin stdenv

[Eric Seidel]

I'm tentatively in favor of making the switch too. I'm going to test my
environment against pure-darwin this weekend.

On Fri, Oct 2, 2015, at 08:03, Anthony Cowley wrote:
> 
> 
> > On Oct 2, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Daniel Peebles  wrote:
> > 
> > If nobody objects, I think we should just switch over. The only people 
> > interested in maintaining the darwin ecosystem on Nix don't really want to 
> > have to maintain two parallel stdenvs, and unless someone stands up to 
> > fight for the old impure stdenv, I think everyone will be long-term better 
> > off with the pure one. Yes, there will be some short- and medium-term pain 
> > during the switch, but there already is with the El Capitan upgrade.
> 
> I vote to go ahead with this, too. Getting just a little help from hydra
> in terms of binaries will make it a lot easier to contribute to
> pure-Darwin.
> 
> Anthony
> 
> 
> 
> > 
> >> On Fri, Oct 2, 2015 at 3:01 AM, Michael Sperber  
> >> wrote:
> >> 
> >> Daniel Peebles  writes:
> >> 
> >> > Probably obvious, but I'm in favor of switching/merging :)
> >> 
> >> +1
> >> 
> >> --
> >> Regards,
> >> Mike
> >> 
> >> ___
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> >> nix-dev@lists.science.uu.nl
> >> http://lists.science.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/nix-dev
> > 
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Re: [Nix-dev] Feature request: replace the Darwin stdenv with the pure Darwin stdenv

[Anthony Cowley]

> On Oct 2, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Daniel Peebles  wrote:
> 
> If nobody objects, I think we should just switch over. The only people 
> interested in maintaining the darwin ecosystem on Nix don't really want to 
> have to maintain two parallel stdenvs, and unless someone stands up to fight 
> for the old impure stdenv, I think everyone will be long-term better off with 
> the pure one. Yes, there will be some short- and medium-term pain during the 
> switch, but there already is with the El Capitan upgrade.

I vote to go ahead with this, too. Getting just a little help from hydra in 
terms of binaries will make it a lot easier to contribute to pure-Darwin.

Anthony



> 
>> On Fri, Oct 2, 2015 at 3:01 AM, Michael Sperber  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Daniel Peebles  writes:
>> 
>> > Probably obvious, but I'm in favor of switching/merging :)
>> 
>> +1
>> 
>> --
>> Regards,
>> Mike
>> 
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Re: [Nix-dev] Feature request: replace the Darwin stdenv with the pure Darwin stdenv

[Daniel Peebles]

If nobody objects, I think we should just switch over. The only people
interested in maintaining the darwin ecosystem on Nix don't really want to
have to maintain two parallel stdenvs, and unless someone stands up to
fight for the old impure stdenv, I think everyone will be long-term better
off with the pure one. Yes, there will be some short- and medium-term pain
during the switch, but there already is with the El Capitan upgrade.

On Fri, Oct 2, 2015 at 3:01 AM, Michael Sperber 
wrote:

>
> Daniel Peebles  writes:
>
> > Probably obvious, but I'm in favor of switching/merging :)
>
> +1
>
> --
> Regards,
> Mike
>
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Re: [Nix-dev] Feature request: replace the Darwin stdenv with the pure Darwin stdenv

[Michael Sperber]

Daniel Peebles  writes:

> Probably obvious, but I'm in favor of switching/merging :)

+1

-- 
Regards,
Mike

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Re: [Nix-dev] Feature request: replace the Darwin stdenv with the pure Darwin stdenv

[Daniel Peebles]

Probably obvious, but I'm in favor of switching/merging :)

Given how badly this 10.11 change affected Homebrew too, this might be
enough of a kick to get a bigger and more active Darwin constituency in Nix.

On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 3:48 PM, Jude  wrote:

> Hi all, pikajude here, maintainer of the pure-darwin stdenv in nixpkgs.
>
> Over the past few days in ##nix-darwin, I've discovered that the impure
> Darwin stdenv on master is broken for nearly everyone due to Xcode 7's
> introduction of `.tbd` files for library stubs; see
> https://forums.developer.apple.com/thread/4572.
>
> As far as I have been able to investigate, .tbd compatibility is an Xcode
> 7-exclusive feature, and I'm not sure whether the changes required to use
> them are open-source yet. There is a temporary fix to downgrade to Xcode
> 6.4, but that will obviously only work for a limited time. For people who
> do use Xcode, I don’t want to restrict them to an older version because our
> nixpkgs stdenv completely fails at what it is intended to do.
>
> This continues the precedent of OSX updates breaking parts of nixpkgs
> without warning.
>
> pure-darwin mitigates this problem because the entire compiler toolchain
> and environment (save a symlink to libSystem, which won't be changing
> anytime soon) is in the Nix store. If I can get approval, I would love to
> replace the current Darwin stdenv with the pure one, because it would allow
> us to upgrade our toolchain on our own terms, as well as work nicely
> alongside any Xcode version a user would care to install.
>
> I would also like to merge the pure stdenv because it will result in us
> getting Hydra builds for it, which is the main roadblock that turns people
> off of using pure-darwin. Having Hydra build the pure stdenv also gives us
> an easy way to see which packages are broken on pure-darwin.
>
> Answers to some common questions:
>
> Q: Does pure-darwin fix the missing -lgcc_s.10.5 problem?
> A: Yes. In the Xcode update, libgcc_s.10.5.dylib was changed from a
> symlink to /usr/lib/libSystem.dylib to a text-based library stub that
> (AFAIK) only Xcode 7 can currently use. In pure-darwin, libgcc_s is still a
> symlink, so ld will understand it just fine.
>
> Q: Will pure-darwin break anything for me?
> A: Right now, probably. I’ve been largely the only pure-darwin maintainer
> for a few months, and my time and ability to fix packages are limited. I
> welcome you to try the pure-darwin stdenv to see if there are any broken
> packages. Over the next few days I will be working on building every
> package that claims to be Darwin-compatible, in order to weed out the
> remaining errors. Most fixes are trivial. About half of the broken packages
> I encounter just need to have libiconv added as a build input.
>
> If breakages concern you, you can use the “replaceStdenv” feature of your
> nixpkgs config to revert to the old stdenv for as long as necessary.
> Packages built with either stdenv will coexist peacefully.
>
> Q: Do I have to turn on the build sandbox to use pure-darwin?
> A: Not if you don’t want to. The sandbox is just an extra layer of
> security to make sure that the outside world isn’t polluting our builds,
> but it certainly isn’t mandatory. Even without the sandbox, your compiler
> will still be using its own toolchain, which means that Xcode updates will
> not break it.
>
> Q: How do I turn on the build sandbox?
> A: Add "build-use-chroot = true” to your /etc/nix/nix.conf. The sandbox is
> not enabled by default.
>
> Q: Anything else I need to know?
> A: In nix-1.10, the sandbox is very imperfect and will cause a lot of
> false negatives. This causes building polyml and Haskell packages to fail,
> among a few other things.
>
> Nix pull request #562 (https://github.com/NixOS/nix/pull/562) addresses
> these problems. If you intend to make heavy usage of the sandbox feature,
> you should definitely use the checkout of nix in that pull request until it
> gets merged into master.
>
> Again, if you’re worried about the sandbox breaking builds, feel free to
> disable it.
>
> Please let me know if you have other questions.
>
> Jude
>
> PS: Sorry for double-post! I sent an email from my old address, which is
> now stuck in the moderation queue.
>
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Re: [Nix-dev] Feature request: replace the Darwin stdenv with the pure Darwin stdenv

[Brandon Martin]

Big thanks to pikajude, copumpkin, and anyone else. I really would like this to 
happen. As pikajude said I have been staying on impure because of compile times 
so if we could get hydra builds that would be awesome.

--
Brandon Martin


> On Sep 30, 2015, at 1:48 PM, Jude  wrote:
> 
> Hi all, pikajude here, maintainer of the pure-darwin stdenv in nixpkgs.
> 
> Over the past few days in ##nix-darwin, I've discovered that the impure 
> Darwin stdenv on master is broken for nearly everyone due to Xcode 7's 
> introduction of `.tbd` files for library stubs; see 
> https://forums.developer.apple.com/thread/4572 
> .
> 
> As far as I have been able to investigate, .tbd compatibility is an Xcode 
> 7-exclusive feature, and I'm not sure whether the changes required to use 
> them are open-source yet. There is a temporary fix to downgrade to Xcode 6.4, 
> but that will obviously only work for a limited time. For people who do use 
> Xcode, I don’t want to restrict them to an older version because our nixpkgs 
> stdenv completely fails at what it is intended to do.
> 
> This continues the precedent of OSX updates breaking parts of nixpkgs without 
> warning.
> 
> pure-darwin mitigates this problem because the entire compiler toolchain and 
> environment (save a symlink to libSystem, which won't be changing anytime 
> soon) is in the Nix store. If I can get approval, I would love to replace the 
> current Darwin stdenv with the pure one, because it would allow us to upgrade 
> our toolchain on our own terms, as well as work nicely alongside any Xcode 
> version a user would care to install.
> 
> I would also like to merge the pure stdenv because it will result in us 
> getting Hydra builds for it, which is the main roadblock that turns people 
> off of using pure-darwin. Having Hydra build the pure stdenv also gives us an 
> easy way to see which packages are broken on pure-darwin.
> 
> Answers to some common questions:
> 
> Q: Does pure-darwin fix the missing -lgcc_s.10.5 problem?
> A: Yes. In the Xcode update, libgcc_s.10.5.dylib was changed from a symlink 
> to /usr/lib/libSystem.dylib to a text-based library stub that (AFAIK) only 
> Xcode 7 can currently use. In pure-darwin, libgcc_s is still a symlink, so ld 
> will understand it just fine.
> 
> Q: Will pure-darwin break anything for me?
> A: Right now, probably. I’ve been largely the only pure-darwin maintainer for 
> a few months, and my time and ability to fix packages are limited. I welcome 
> you to try the pure-darwin stdenv to see if there are any broken packages. 
> Over the next few days I will be working on building every package that 
> claims to be Darwin-compatible, in order to weed out the remaining errors. 
> Most fixes are trivial. About half of the broken packages I encounter just 
> need to have libiconv added as a build input.
> 
> If breakages concern you, you can use the “replaceStdenv” feature of your 
> nixpkgs config to revert to the old stdenv for as long as necessary. Packages 
> built with either stdenv will coexist peacefully.
> 
> Q: Do I have to turn on the build sandbox to use pure-darwin?
> A: Not if you don’t want to. The sandbox is just an extra layer of security 
> to make sure that the outside world isn’t polluting our builds, but it 
> certainly isn’t mandatory. Even without the sandbox, your compiler will still 
> be using its own toolchain, which means that Xcode updates will not break it.
> 
> Q: How do I turn on the build sandbox?
> A: Add "build-use-chroot = true” to your /etc/nix/nix.conf. The sandbox is 
> not enabled by default.
> 
> Q: Anything else I need to know?
> A: In nix-1.10, the sandbox is very imperfect and will cause a lot of false 
> negatives. This causes building polyml and Haskell packages to fail, among a 
> few other things.
> 
> Nix pull request #562 (https://github.com/NixOS/nix/pull/562 
> ) addresses these problems. If you 
> intend to make heavy usage of the sandbox feature, you should definitely use 
> the checkout of nix in that pull request until it gets merged into master.
> 
> Again, if you’re worried about the sandbox breaking builds, feel free to 
> disable it.
> 
> Please let me know if you have other questions.
> 
> Jude
> 
> PS: Sorry for double-post! I sent an email from my old address, which is now 
> stuck in the moderation queue.
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Re: [Nix-dev] Feature request: replace the Darwin stdenv with the pure Darwin stdenv

[Ryan Trinkle]

This looks fantastic.  The pure-darwin work has been critical to getting my
originally-linux-based toolchain working properly on mac, and I'm glad to
see it continuing to move forward like this.  Thanks very much to pikajude,
copumpkin, and all the others who have contributed to this work.


Ryan

On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 3:48 PM, Jude  wrote:

> Hi all, pikajude here, maintainer of the pure-darwin stdenv in nixpkgs.
>
> Over the past few days in ##nix-darwin, I've discovered that the impure
> Darwin stdenv on master is broken for nearly everyone due to Xcode 7's
> introduction of `.tbd` files for library stubs; see
> https://forums.developer.apple.com/thread/4572.
>
> As far as I have been able to investigate, .tbd compatibility is an Xcode
> 7-exclusive feature, and I'm not sure whether the changes required to use
> them are open-source yet. There is a temporary fix to downgrade to Xcode
> 6.4, but that will obviously only work for a limited time. For people who
> do use Xcode, I don’t want to restrict them to an older version because our
> nixpkgs stdenv completely fails at what it is intended to do.
>
> This continues the precedent of OSX updates breaking parts of nixpkgs
> without warning.
>
> pure-darwin mitigates this problem because the entire compiler toolchain
> and environment (save a symlink to libSystem, which won't be changing
> anytime soon) is in the Nix store. If I can get approval, I would love to
> replace the current Darwin stdenv with the pure one, because it would allow
> us to upgrade our toolchain on our own terms, as well as work nicely
> alongside any Xcode version a user would care to install.
>
> I would also like to merge the pure stdenv because it will result in us
> getting Hydra builds for it, which is the main roadblock that turns people
> off of using pure-darwin. Having Hydra build the pure stdenv also gives us
> an easy way to see which packages are broken on pure-darwin.
>
> Answers to some common questions:
>
> Q: Does pure-darwin fix the missing -lgcc_s.10.5 problem?
> A: Yes. In the Xcode update, libgcc_s.10.5.dylib was changed from a
> symlink to /usr/lib/libSystem.dylib to a text-based library stub that
> (AFAIK) only Xcode 7 can currently use. In pure-darwin, libgcc_s is still a
> symlink, so ld will understand it just fine.
>
> Q: Will pure-darwin break anything for me?
> A: Right now, probably. I’ve been largely the only pure-darwin maintainer
> for a few months, and my time and ability to fix packages are limited. I
> welcome you to try the pure-darwin stdenv to see if there are any broken
> packages. Over the next few days I will be working on building every
> package that claims to be Darwin-compatible, in order to weed out the
> remaining errors. Most fixes are trivial. About half of the broken packages
> I encounter just need to have libiconv added as a build input.
>
> If breakages concern you, you can use the “replaceStdenv” feature of your
> nixpkgs config to revert to the old stdenv for as long as necessary.
> Packages built with either stdenv will coexist peacefully.
>
> Q: Do I have to turn on the build sandbox to use pure-darwin?
> A: Not if you don’t want to. The sandbox is just an extra layer of
> security to make sure that the outside world isn’t polluting our builds,
> but it certainly isn’t mandatory. Even without the sandbox, your compiler
> will still be using its own toolchain, which means that Xcode updates will
> not break it.
>
> Q: How do I turn on the build sandbox?
> A: Add "build-use-chroot = true” to your /etc/nix/nix.conf. The sandbox is
> not enabled by default.
>
> Q: Anything else I need to know?
> A: In nix-1.10, the sandbox is very imperfect and will cause a lot of
> false negatives. This causes building polyml and Haskell packages to fail,
> among a few other things.
>
> Nix pull request #562 (https://github.com/NixOS/nix/pull/562) addresses
> these problems. If you intend to make heavy usage of the sandbox feature,
> you should definitely use the checkout of nix in that pull request until it
> gets merged into master.
>
> Again, if you’re worried about the sandbox breaking builds, feel free to
> disable it.
>
> Please let me know if you have other questions.
>
> Jude
>
> PS: Sorry for double-post! I sent an email from my old address, which is
> now stuck in the moderation queue.
>
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> http://lists.science.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/nix-dev
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>
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[Nix-dev] Feature request: replace the Darwin stdenv with the pure Darwin stdenv

[Jude]

Hi all, pikajude here, maintainer of the pure-darwin stdenv in nixpkgs.

Over the past few days in ##nix-darwin, I've discovered that the impure Darwin 
stdenv on master is broken for nearly everyone due to Xcode 7's introduction of 
`.tbd` files for library stubs; see 
https://forums.developer.apple.com/thread/4572 
.

As far as I have been able to investigate, .tbd compatibility is an Xcode 
7-exclusive feature, and I'm not sure whether the changes required to use them 
are open-source yet. There is a temporary fix to downgrade to Xcode 6.4, but 
that will obviously only work for a limited time. For people who do use Xcode, 
I don’t want to restrict them to an older version because our nixpkgs stdenv 
completely fails at what it is intended to do.

This continues the precedent of OSX updates breaking parts of nixpkgs without 
warning.

pure-darwin mitigates this problem because the entire compiler toolchain and 
environment (save a symlink to libSystem, which won't be changing anytime soon) 
is in the Nix store. If I can get approval, I would love to replace the current 
Darwin stdenv with the pure one, because it would allow us to upgrade our 
toolchain on our own terms, as well as work nicely alongside any Xcode version 
a user would care to install.

I would also like to merge the pure stdenv because it will result in us getting 
Hydra builds for it, which is the main roadblock that turns people off of using 
pure-darwin. Having Hydra build the pure stdenv also gives us an easy way to 
see which packages are broken on pure-darwin.

Answers to some common questions:

Q: Does pure-darwin fix the missing -lgcc_s.10.5 problem?
A: Yes. In the Xcode update, libgcc_s.10.5.dylib was changed from a symlink to 
/usr/lib/libSystem.dylib to a text-based library stub that (AFAIK) only Xcode 7 
can currently use. In pure-darwin, libgcc_s is still a symlink, so ld will 
understand it just fine.

Q: Will pure-darwin break anything for me?
A: Right now, probably. I’ve been largely the only pure-darwin maintainer for a 
few months, and my time and ability to fix packages are limited. I welcome you 
to try the pure-darwin stdenv to see if there are any broken packages. Over the 
next few days I will be working on building every package that claims to be 
Darwin-compatible, in order to weed out the remaining errors. Most fixes are 
trivial. About half of the broken packages I encounter just need to have 
libiconv added as a build input.

If breakages concern you, you can use the “replaceStdenv” feature of your 
nixpkgs config to revert to the old stdenv for as long as necessary. Packages 
built with either stdenv will coexist peacefully.

Q: Do I have to turn on the build sandbox to use pure-darwin?
A: Not if you don’t want to. The sandbox is just an extra layer of security to 
make sure that the outside world isn’t polluting our builds, but it certainly 
isn’t mandatory. Even without the sandbox, your compiler will still be using 
its own toolchain, which means that Xcode updates will not break it.

Q: How do I turn on the build sandbox?
A: Add "build-use-chroot = true” to your /etc/nix/nix.conf. The sandbox is not 
enabled by default.

Q: Anything else I need to know?
A: In nix-1.10, the sandbox is very imperfect and will cause a lot of false 
negatives. This causes building polyml and Haskell packages to fail, among a 
few other things.

Nix pull request #562 (https://github.com/NixOS/nix/pull/562 
) addresses these problems. If you 
intend to make heavy usage of the sandbox feature, you should definitely use 
the checkout of nix in that pull request until it gets merged into master.

Again, if you’re worried about the sandbox breaking builds, feel free to 
disable it.

Please let me know if you have other questions.

Jude

PS: Sorry for double-post! I sent an email from my old address, which is now 
stuck in the moderation queue.___
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